What are my options after a rod bearing failure

[Mikey]

I'm impressed that was done in just 4 months ... feels like everything automotive today is backlogged like crazy ... i've been waiting ~18 months for an alloy T5 transmission because of an inability to get the gearsets, grrr.

It was supposed to be 5 weeks, but like you said, everything is extremely backed up

[Old School]

https://youtu.be/tCLp-VNL_cE

She's home

Yes, that does sound good....

[Mikey]

I need one of those Mobil 1 15w50 oil caps...

I'm sure Kevin has some laying around

[Mikey]

One minor issue, I ordered the exhaust with cats but my installer is pretty sure these were catless

The gas smell is pretty strong, so I'd like to be able to go out to restaurants without smelling like chemical warfare

[ViperGeorge]

One minor issue, I ordered the exhaust with cats but my installer is pretty sure these were cables

The gas smell is pretty strong, so I'd like to be able to go out to restaurants without smelling like chemical warfare

I assume you mean cat less not cables. In any event, I have a 9L Extreme with ARH headers. It had their 2 cell high flow cats on the car. They worked ok for a while but then gave up the ghost. I ordered a new set from them which they call their "Green High Flow Cats". They are 4 cell and are a big improvement. Virtually no gas smell which I hate.

[Old School]

It's interesting that some prefer a raw exhaust smell, while others prefer rotten egg smell generated by catalytic converters.

I'm more like Lieutenant Colonel Bill Kilgore:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALi78xSaP0Y

[Mikey]

Lou Belanger was kind enough to verify, I sent him pics and he's gonna get back to me
The cold weather and being sat in a garage I'm sure doesn't help
52895
I don't see a cat, but it could be further into the car

[Hawk]

I have Belanger headers. The Cat is located behind the sills just forward of the muffler. The first picture is the drivers side Cat.Second Pic the passengers side attached to the collector pipe. The 3ed pic is without the cats on but the Cat delete pipe sits in the same spot as the Cat
And for the record I love the smell of the exhaust catless, if you drive fast enough you cant smell it!
If you need the Belanger Cats I’ll give you a good deal on mine. I only had them on for a month
Hope this helps
Dennis

52897
52898
52899

[Mikey]

I have Belanger headers. The Cat is located behind the sills just forward of the muffler. The first picture is the drivers side Cat.Second Pic the passengers side attached to the collector pipe. The 3ed pic is without the cats on but the Cat delete pipe sits in the same spot as the Cat
And for the record I love the smell of the exhaust catless, if you drive fast enough you cant smell it!
If you need the Belanger Cats I’ll give you a good deal on mine. I only had them on for a month
Hope this helps
Dennis

52897
52898
52899

I'm trying to avoid taking the sides off, is there a way I can see under a lift and a mirror?

So I have 1 last predicament. I paid for a steering rack and it wasn't installed. He mentioned a credit, but I only installation or an actual refund for the part and labor would be satisfactory for me.
Hoping I don't have to push the issue

[Old School]

I'm trying to avoid taking the sides off, is there a way I can see under a lift and a mirror?

So I have 1 last predicament. I paid for a steering rack and it wasn't installed. He mentioned a credit, but I only installation or an actual refund for the part and labor would be satisfactory for me.
Hoping I don't have to push the issue

You could try and snake one of these in there:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/192701974772?hash=item2cddeec8f4:g:L-YAAOSwX~dWj3dv&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAA4I1DCLuRZjhMOOHcavq8VcHIzsixH NtHjueIRVgjNGHeerQjEYW6RvCvVc35VaLoopApBG2QrDNvLD0 o%2BLur29%2BY28ku9GBXukijUAPlKS8AmbOBVlhHJP3wnr0pp 3pNSr4ssubvOixGeichk0SSL2jlXeMygZbUF6yoY4bjHj46FwB G3gFLIGfS24UHH9wBHO7adO9BQN%2Bd4u0shO5Iuhsd112oosP s5MO5RCYTyVKhBXrNHsj5xp7tvv%2BZjlaJavJIcoV70YZYSk0 XhRy%2BwUBhA4SIGCPxQ4MWFdFm5Eco%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR5a9q5 vDYQ

[Mikey]

You could try and snake one of these in there:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/192701974772?hash=item2cddeec8f4:g:L-YAAOSwX~dWj3dv&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAA4I1DCLuRZjhMOOHcavq8VcHIzsixH NtHjueIRVgjNGHeerQjEYW6RvCvVc35VaLoopApBG2QrDNvLD0 o%2BLur29%2BY28ku9GBXukijUAPlKS8AmbOBVlhHJP3wnr0pp 3pNSr4ssubvOixGeichk0SSL2jlXeMygZbUF6yoY4bjHj46FwB G3gFLIGfS24UHH9wBHO7adO9BQN%2Bd4u0shO5Iuhsd112oosP s5MO5RCYTyVKhBXrNHsj5xp7tvv%2BZjlaJavJIcoV70YZYSk0 XhRy%2BwUBhA4SIGCPxQ4MWFdFm5Eco%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR5a9q5 vDYQ

That works!

[Mikey]

Looks like the cats are indeed there
52906

[ViperGeorge]

[QUOTE=Mikey;467800]Looks like the cats are indeed there
/QUOTE]

Maybe you need better cats.

[Mikey]

[QUOTE=Mikey;467800]Looks like the cats are indeed there
/QUOTE]

Maybe you need better cats.

Meh, smell isn't bad when I'm out and about
As long as I can't smell it in the cabin, we're good

[ViperGeorge]

[QUOTE=ViperGeorge;467802]

Meh, smell isn't bad when I'm out and about
As long as I can't smell it in the cabin, we're good

For me, when the cats on my 9L Extreme gave up the ghost I couldn't stand the smell. Ok driving at speed you don't notice it much but at a red light or any time you are stopped, yuck. Couldn't lose the smell for hours even after getting out of the car. It must have clung to my clothes.

[VENOM-TA]

Used engines can be found, just don't put bearings in it or you will be revisiting the issue. As well as Prefix, there are many other options out there depending on your budget.

I have had to do numerous Gen 5 engines and always found the failure appeared to be lack of lubrication. Early recall engines had an issue where there was some machining debris that would get into cam bore and cause a loss of oil pressure, taking out the bearings. The later engines just appeared to be run low on oil, or lost pressure on a high G- Force track. This is not a dry sump motor and even with the swing oil pickup, it can oil starve (unless its slightly overfilled with oil and race oil is used)

Good luck.

He’s already done a rebuild and heads/cam on it Dan..

[Dan Cragin]

Is this the new engine Kevin just build and dyno tested, if so I'm sure he will help. Did you clean out the oil cooler and lines?

[Mikey]

Is this the new engine Kevin just build and dyno tested, if so I'm sure he will help. Did you clean out the oil cooler and lines?

Yessir, he's been MIA for a bit. The smell isn't as bad now that she isnt sitting in one spot, the lines should be good we went ahead and got new lines

[Dan Cragin]

PM me if you need help.

Dan

[Mikey]

PM me if you need help.

Dan

Sent.

I noticed the car surges upon start up (revs to 1k to 2k) until warmed up
Not sure if this is just a cammed viper characteristic

[Mikey]

Welll....that didn't last long.52959
52960
52961

[Sniper]

What happened???

[Mikey]

What happened???

Driving on the toll road, hear a slight flutter, I go into 6th and it goes away. Slowly after, I hear a rattle and then the "no oil" light comes on.

[Sniper]

Any idea what actually happened?

[StrokerAce]

How many miles since the rebuild?

[Mikey]

How many miles since the rebuild?

less than 400.

[Mark1107]

Damn. Cursed vehicle.

[Mikey]

Any idea what actually happened?

No clue, it lost all pressure immediately

[ACRSNK]

O no!!!!!!

[Viper.954]

What does the dipstick tell you? Is it still full of oil?

[Mikey]

What does the dipstick tell you? Is it still full of oil?

No clue, was on the side of the highway so only got out once the tow came

[Space Truckin]

Ugh...

52962

52962

[StrokerAce]

I'm sure they drained the oil after the dyno session and emptied it for shipping to be refilled when put in the vehicle I can't imagine it burning enough oil in 400 miles to be so low as to cause that BUT, if so, that's terrible. Hopefully they make it right.

[Mikey]

I'm sure they drained the oil after the dyno session and emptied it for shipping to be refilled when put in the vehicle I can't imagine it burning enough oil in 400 miles to be so low as to cause that BUT, if so, that's terrible. Hopefully they make it right.

I'm pretty sure something happened during install, lots of small red flags. I'm hoping for the best, but I have a feeling this will nit be resolved in a smooth manner

My oil pressure has been on the higher side, so I really don't think oil consumption was the issue



Edit: motor needs to come out. I'm going to have the installer and builder discuss how we're going to proceed and go from there. I'm getting a quote from Calvo as well, just in case

[ViperGeorge]

If the dipstick indicates full or nearly full I would suspect the oil sender. They fail on a regular basis and are a known problem on Dodge/Jeep/etc. I think the next most likely issue would be a failed oil pump.

[Martin]

Holy friggin' crap - really sorry to hear about this. Maybe this car is cursed. Hopefully this gets resolved - they should have insurance to cover errors on their part, and I believe the work that they do has a warranty.

[TIME]

Driving on the toll road, hear a slight flutter, I go into 6th and it goes away. Slowly after, I hear a rattle and then the "no oil" light comes on.

Sorry to hear that, Mike. Fcuk!

[BSLSK]

My condolences... May be time for a gen 5 hellcat swap.

[Snakebit10]

Good grief. I feel for you Mickey. Lets hope these "stand up guys" stand by their work. You did all you could with this car with all its issues. You deserve a break from all the issues you have dealt with this car. All the best as you got through this new nightmare.

[mblgjr]

If the oil pressure just went sky high & was steady; hopefully its just the sending unit. They're known to fail (across all FCA platforms it's used on) & is a relatively quick n easy fix.

[efnfast]

If the oil pressure just went sky high & was steady; hopefully its just the sending unit. They're known to fail (across all FCA platforms it's used on) & is a relatively quick n easy fix.

given he said the engine started rattling just before the pressure went to 0 I don't think I'd hold my breath for the quick & easy fix

[mblgjr]

given he said the engine started rattling just before the pressure went to 0 I don't think I'd hold my breath for the quick & easy fix

I missed that... sadly.

[VENOM-TA]

Sux!!!! I was looking forward to seeing it this Saturday too.. those guys discussing it better make it right.. you shouldn’t be outta pocket at all from here on out..

[Mikey]

So Kevin said he'll take care of it if it was a part failure, but we still need to pull the motor, which is 4k for pull and install....

[ViperGeorge]

So Kevin said he'll take care of it if it was a part failure, but we still need to pull the motor, which is 4k for pull and install....

Who is paying the $4K for pull and install?

[Mikey]

Who is paying the $4K for pull and install?

I'm going to assume me, if it was somehow my error, I'm all for it, but if not, I don't think I should be on the hook

[VENOM-TA]

I'm going to assume me, if it was somehow my error, I'm all for it, but if not, I don't think I should be on the hook
You should pay nothing if it’s not your fault.. period.. but at minimum split the cost.. but I’d push for zero out of pocket.. my $.02

[Mikey]

You should pay nothing if it’s not your fault.. period.. but at minimum split the cost.. but I’d push for zero out of pocket.. my $.02

My feelings exactly, Antonio is going to call me in a bit. We'll see what this would run at Calvo

The oil cooler may have not been replaced...

[VENOM-TA]

My feelings exactly, Antonio is going to call me in a bit. We'll see what this would run at Calvo

The oil cooler may have not been replaced...

Hoping for the best..

[Old School]

The oil cooler/lines are after the filter. Oil flowing through it is filtered, unless the filter bypass is open.

[ViperGeorge]

The oil cooler and oil lines should be replaced after any engine failure. This is pretty obvious. Debris can contaminate the cooler and lines and it will be hard to remove. I'm surprised the shop didn't do this. That is not cool.

[Mikey]

Waiting on the oil filter results

[ViperSRT]

The oil cooler and oil lines should be replaced after any engine failure. This is pretty obvious. Debris can contaminate the cooler and lines and it will be hard to remove. I'm surprised the shop didn't do this. That is not cool.

Absolutely correct. Never reuse the oil cooler or lines after engine failure with metallic debris. Recipe for failure. I am sure this was mentioned previously in this thread.

[Mikey]

Absolutely correct. Never reuse the oil cooler or lines after engine failure with metallic debris. Recipe for failure. I am sure this was mentioned previously in this thread.

I'm hoping that isn't the issue, because I was billed and paid for a new oil cooler and lines

[Jack B]

Maybe I missed it, have someone get an accurate dipstick reading. Look at both sides of the dipstick, use the low side as the real level. As the car sits those two levels close. Everything starts after you get the correct reading.

[GTS Dean]

From Page 3:
Don't forget to replace the oil cooler and lines. They may contain a lot of debris to foul the rebuild.


Absolutely correct. Never reuse the oil cooler or lines after engine failure with metallic debris. Recipe for failure. I am sure this was mentioned previously in this thread.

Little IMPORTANT things.

[Mikey]

From Page 3:



Little IMPORTANT things.

This will be a big issue as I did pay for the new cooler and lines

[Lawineer]

I cannot imagine any sort of operator error that would cause oil pressure to drop to zero outside of over-rev conditions.

[Martin]

I may have missed this, but did one shop do the entire job? I think I remember reading in this thread that the engine was pulled and sent off to be rebuilt. That could be a recipe for disaster - the shop that pulled the engine will likely say the problem was in the rebuild, and the shop that did the rebuild will say that shop that pulled the engine didn't clear the lines or oil cooler. It may turn into a finger pointing contest.

[ViperTony]

Edit: motor needs to come out. I'm going to have the installer and builder discuss how we're going to proceed and go from there. I'm getting a quote from Calvo as well, just in case

I'm guessing someone dropped the oil pan and saw some things that shouldn't be in there? Damn...I'm sorry to read this (though my sentiment doesn't help you). We're with you in spirit FWIW...

[Mikey]

I may have missed this, but did one shop do the entire job? I think I remember reading in this thread that the engine was pulled and sent off to be rebuilt. That could be a recipe for disaster - the shop that pulled the engine will likely say the problem was in the rebuild, and the shop that did the rebuild will say that shop that pulled the engine didn't clear the lines or oil cooler. It may turn into a finger pointing contest.

I have a feeling that's what's going to happen. One shop did the pull install, and sent it off to kevin for the build.

I'm 99.9% sure I never overrevved it. Initially when the oil pressure went to 0, it felt like maybe a line popped off

[GTS Dean]

Or, maybe the relief valves stuck into bypass mode?

[Mikey]

Or, maybe the relief valves stuck into bypass mode?

No clue what that would sound or feel like. The ugly rattling noise didn't start until after I went further down the road. Initially it was a very faint flutter that would go away in 6th then oil went to zero shortly after. The fluttering noise was near the passenger side

[Martin]

I have a feeling that's what's going to happen. One shop did the pull install, and sent it off to kevin for the build.

I'm 99.9% sure I never overrevved it. Initially when the oil pressure went to 0, it felt like maybe a line popped off

I wonder how anyone's going to prove one way or another if the failure was caused by a re-used oil cooler and/or re-used oil lines. About the only way I can think of it being somewhat definitive is if you had possession of the oil cooler and lines, an independent shop went through them with a fine-tooth comb, and then an analysis was done on the metallurgy of the flakes that are still in there (there will definitely be some flakes left). If it's identical to what was in the original damaged-engine oil, then that would point to those never being changed.

[Mikey]

I wonder how anyone's going to prove one way or another if the failure was caused by a re-used oil cooler and/or re-used oil lines. About the only way I can think of it being somewhat definitive is if you had possession of the oil cooler and lines, an independent shop went through them with a fine-tooth comb, and then an analysis was done on the metallurgy of the flakes that are still in there (there will definitely be some flakes left). If it's identical to what was in the original damaged-engine oil, then that would point to those never being changed.

Kevin said he'd be able to tell, the coolers have been on back order, apparently.
I just want my damn car fixed

[Martin]

Kevin said he'd be able to tell, the coolers have been on back order, apparently.
I just want my family car fixed

Might still be worthwhile to get an independent analysis done. Backordered coolers are circumstantial, but not definitive. Getting a gas chromatography analysis done would be almost 100% definitive. That's a really easy test to do - most labs can do it for not much cost. Way back when, when I was working in the aircraft space, we ran into situations where someone would claim that an engine failed because it wasn't manufactured properly. Then, we'd rip it apart, and no matter how hard they tried to clean it out, we'd find signs of the wrong fuel being used (a jet engine running on Av Gas, for example). Nowadays, those gas chromatographs are so cheap and common that most community college chemical labs have them.

[Mikey]

Might still be worthwhile to get an independent analysis done. Backordered coolers are circumstantial, but not definitive. Getting a gas chromatography analysis done would be almost 100% definitive. That's a really easy test to do - most labs can do it for not much cost. Way back when, when I was working in the aircraft space, we ran into situations where someone would claim that an engine failed because it wasn't manufactured properly. Then, we'd rip it apart, and no matter how hard they tried to clean it out, we'd find signs of the wrong fuel being used (a jet engine running on Av Gas, for example). Nowadays, those gas chromatographs are so cheap and common that most community college chemical labs have them.

What would I need to get that done? I'm gonna have him ship the old filter over

[Sniper]

Man, I feel your pain but not to your extent! I hope this all gets sorted quickly and no expense out of your pocket!

[Martin]

What would I need to get that done? I'm gonna have him ship the old filter over

This might be a good place to start: http://www.weanalyzeoil.com/home.html

If you have a good enough sample of oil, Blackstone might be able to give you a "fingerprint" of the metallic components that gets you close enough.

It's been a long time since I've messed with these, but for issues like I mentioned where someone was claiming that they never stuck Av Gas into their jet engine - GC would always figure out of they're BS'ing or not.

For things like this situation, where you might need to get an actual metal sample and have it analyzed (for example, take the oil cooler, fill it with solvent, plug the inlet/outlet, and put it on a shaker to shake all the material loose), GC may or may not work. I know it works great for organic compounds, but metals are inorganic - so that's a question mark in my mind. Whatever Blackstone does, and what Southwest Spectro-Chem does, definitely will give you an accurate count of the metals in the sample.

I'm starting to get out of my area of expertise here, so take it with a grain of salt. Best to call Blackstone and Southwest to see what they recommend.

[Mikey]

I'm considering selling it as is at this point, this car has been mentally draining

Edit: I somehow caught covid, to add insult to injury

[SRT_BluByU]

Awful news to hear.. just awful. All hot rodders have been there at some point.. maybe not to the same level..but some worse im sure. Stay focused on enjoying life. Hope you feel better

[13COBRA]

I'm considering selling it as is at this point, this car has been mentally draining

Edit: I somehow caught covid, to add insult to injury

I wouldn't blame you at all.

[StrokerAce]

I'm considering selling it as is at this point, this car has been mentally draining

Edit: I somehow caught covid, to add insult to injury

I would hate to see that but totally understand. Last thing you need it to dump more money into it. Sometimes it's just bad luck. Hope they swapped the oil lines and cooler like you requested. It just sucks

[Mikey]

Oil pan is cracked from the inside out, idk how that happens
52970

[Lawineer]

Is it because a piston hit it? lol

- - - Updated - - -


I'm considering selling it as is at this point, this car has been mentally draining

Edit: I somehow caught covid, to add insult to injury

LMK. I may be interested depending on price.

[Mikey]

Is it because a piston hit it? lol

- - - Updated - - -



LMK. I may be interested depending on price.

No clue. If they try to pin it on me, I'd want the ecu pulled to see when

I wouldn't take less than 100 for the body

[Lawineer]

If you can get that, I'd definitely do it, but that's probably a high price without an engine.

[SRT_BluByU]

some serious scrape marks on the frame... did ya jump it.. HA!

[Mikey]

some serious scrape marks on the frame... did ya jump it.. HA!

Definitely not, I don't remember those marks being there actually


Edit: nvm, that's all the debris. They're still doing construction in the community I live in

[efnfast]

Oil pan is cracked from the inside out, idk how that happens


ouch, that would suck if the original oil cooler/lines were reused and your engine let go from an assembly issue .... the would be one hell of a finger pointing game

[Mikey]

ouch, that would suck if the original oil cooler/lines were reused and your engine let go from an assembly issue .... the would be one hell of a finger pointing game

At this point, I'm going to have them two talk it out.
If I'm going to have to come out of pocket at all. I'm shipping the entire car to calvo and be done with it

[Mikey]

I would hate to see that but totally understand. Last thing you need it to dump more money into it. Sometimes it's just bad luck. Hope they swapped the oil lines and cooler like you requested. It just sucks

Lmao, I just noticed the bold text

[Space Truckin]

Kevin said he'd be able to tell, the coolers have been on back order, apparently.
I just want my damn car fixed

If I read this correctly, the new engine was allowed to be run with the old "contaminated" oil cooler/ lines?

[Mikey]

If I read this correctly, the new engine was allowed to be run with the old "contaminated" oil cooler/ lines?

We don't know yet. Installer of course said he put in a new cooler and lines, builder suspects he didn't. We'll see.

[GTS Dean]

some serious scrape marks on the frame... did ya jump it.. HA!

I looked at the photo too. At first glance, it looks like heavy scrapes, but I really suspect it could be dust from driving over grass/weeds on the side of the road.

[Mikey]

I looked at the photo too. At first glance, it looks like heavy scrapes, but I really suspect it could be dust from driving over grass/weeds on the side of the road.

Yup, if you look at the cord, there's some gunk on that as well

[AZTVR]

We don't know yet. Installer of course said he put in a new cooler and lines, builder suspects he didn't. We'll see.

I would ask him to show you the old cooler or photos as soon as possible, so that if he did do it and has it, he can be withdrawn as a target for that discussion, since lots of people are focused on that possibility, without any evidence.

[Martin]

I would ask him to show you the old cooler or photos as soon as possible, so that if he did do it and has it, he can be withdrawn as a target for that discussion, since lots of people are focused on that possibility, without any evidence.

That, and/or show that those parts were purchased and delivered. If they were sitting on the shelf, then show inventory records of when they were pulled. I do have a bad feeling that this may be a finger pointing contest. I'm making a point to myself to go to a "one stop shop" if anything grenades on my car. I want one throat to choke, so to speak.

[Mikey]

That, and/or show that those parts were purchased and delivered. If they were sitting on the shelf, then show inventory records of when they were pulled. I do have a bad feeling that this may be a finger pointing contest. I'm making a point to myself to go to a "one stop shop" if anything grenades on my car. I want one throat to choke, so to speak.

One shop was the goal, but shops wouldn't give me an exact quote or just wouldn't get back to me. Unfortunately calvo got back to me AFTER I started the work. Only 8k for a rebuild there

I went ahead and asked him for pics and records, the motor is being shipped out Monday


Edit: my mistake, the motor had exactly 635 miles at failure

[SRT_BluByU]

Arrow racing/prefix has always done good work for me..

[Mikey]

Uh oh. So asked for pics of the old cooler and lines, he said

"Eall thr lines were flushed and ultrasonic
cleaned, as well as thr EOC the factory
oil coolers are on national backorder
Everything was clean as a whistle"

This is going to be a nightmare

- - - Updated - - -


Arrow racing/prefix has always done good work for me..

They never got back to me with actual numbers, they just said 20k is worst case scenario for a complete rebuild but couldn't give me an actual quote until they received it

[Mikey]

Pics of the underside and oil52974
52975

[ViperSRT]

Uh oh. So asked for pics of the old cooler and lines, he said

"Eall thr lines were flushed and ultrasonic
cleaned, as well as thr EOC the factory
oil coolers are on national backorder
Everything was clean as a whistle"

This is going to be a nightmare



I agree it will be a nightmare if bearing damage is the initial cause of failure and foreign material is found embedded in the bearings as it would point toward the cooler and/or lines. If they told you they were replaced but only “cleaned” them, and never informed you, you should have a strong case. Good luck in that regard.

[Mikey]

I agree it will be a nightmare if bearing damage is the initial cause of failure and foreign material is found embedded in the bearings as it would point toward the cooler and/or lines. If they told you they were replaced but only “cleaned” them, and never informed you, you should have a strong case. Good luck in that regard.

Yup, he initially told the builder and myself that they were replaced. Then when I asked for pics, he said they were cleaned. I was charged for new lines and a new cooler as well.

[Aevus]

Uh oh. So asked for pics of the old cooler and lines, he said

"Eall thr lines were flushed and ultrasonic
cleaned, as well as thr EOC the factory
oil coolers are on national backorder
Everything was clean as a whistle"

This is going to be a nightmare

- - - Updated - - -



They never got back to me with actual numbers, they just said 20k is worst case scenario for a complete rebuild but couldn't give me an actual quote until they received it

I'm curious:

1. The lines/cooler are absolutely uncleanable? The guy said it was cleaned by ultrasonic, what is that process exactly?
2. If it's a national backorder (discontinued?) that means anyone who have an engine to rebuild won't be able to do it because of that?

[ViperGeorge]

I'm curious:

1. The lines/cooler are absolutely uncleanable? The guy said it was cleaned by ultrasonic, what is that process exactly?
2. If it's a national backorder (discontinued?) that means anyone who have an engine to rebuild won't be able to do it because of that?

I wonder what the inside channels of the oil cooler look like. Are they really cleanable? There must be a reason that it has always been the practice to replace the lines and cooler when an engine fails. If it is so easy to clean them then that would have been the route taken by everyone. They would not have spent the money on new ones. When my 2006 GTS blew an engine the lines were replaced (as was the whole engine, kind of hard to reuse the block when there are two big holes in it).

[Old School]

I wonder what the inside channels of the oil cooler look like. Are they really cleanable? There must be a reason that it has always been the practice to replace the lines and cooler when an engine fails. If it is so easy to clean them then that would have been the route taken by everyone. They would not have spent the money on new ones. When my 2006 GTS blew an engine the lines were replaced (as was the whole engine, kind of hard to reuse the block when there are two big holes in it).

In addition to that, I always clean, flush out the new ones to remove any debris left over from manufacturing. Especially the hoses. When they are cut and ends installed there is likely debris left. And since these hoses and cooler are post the filter in the oil flow, this material is feed directly the bearings.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, installing new stuff doesn't mean it doesn't have to be flushed.

[Lawineer]

It’s more the the heat exchangers that concern me. They have pretty tight and narrow passageways.

Also, my research tells me hoses and EOC were not on back order.

[Mikey]

It’s more the the heat exchangers that concern me. They have pretty tight and narrow passageways.

Also, my research tells me hoses and EOC were not on back order.

Do you have a link to the parts? I don't think a cleaning costs $779.

[TIME]

Uh oh. So asked for pics of the old cooler and lines, he said

"Eall thr lines were flushed and ultrasonic
cleaned, as well as thr EOC the factory
oil coolers are on national backorder
Everything was clean as a whistle"

This is going to be a nightmare

- - - Updated - - -



They never got back to me with actual numbers, they just said 20k is worst case scenario for a complete rebuild but couldn't give me an actual quote until they received it

Mikey,
Typically you use ultrasonic cleaning to dissolve gunk. Ex: if a carburetor/injector system has been sitting for a long time and the gasoline has turned into a varnish-like substance. You simply submerge the unit into a bath of solvent in an ultrasonic container. The solvent is then heated and the ultrasonic vibrations help agitate and dissolve the "gunk". Not sure how/if that would work when removing metal pieces from intricate crevasses inside an oil cooler. If it was indeed ultrasonically cleaned, I am sure that "everything was clean as a whistle" - including the (first) left over metal pieces. Dammed near impossible to prove as the system is probably contaminated again. It is a problem that you initially were told that the oil-cooler and lines were replaced. In an ideal world you deal with "adults" that take responsibility for their actions and just do the right thing. I.e. just fix it if you made a mistake.

[Mikey]

Mikey,
Typically you use ultrasonic cleaning to dissolve gunk. Ex: if a carburetor/injector system has been sitting for a long time and the gasoline has turned into a varnish-like substance. You simply submerge the unit into a bath of solvent in an ultrasonic container. The solvent is then heated and the ultrasonic vibrations help agitate and dissolve the "gunk". Not sure how/if that would work when removing metal pieces from intricate crevasses inside an oil cooler. If it was indeed ultrasonically cleaned, I am sure that "everything was clean as a whistle" - including the (first) left over metal pieces. Dammed near impossible to prove as the system is probably contaminated again. It is a problem that you initially were told that the oil-cooler and lines were replaced. In an ideal world you deal with "adults" that take responsibility for their actions and just do the right thing. I.e. just fix it if you made a mistake.

I'm sure this will be brought up by the builder once he receives the motor. I was billed for a new cooler and lines, the builder was told new cooler and lines were installed, yet they weren't.

[Lawineer]

Idk- the fact that it went to shit in 600 miles is pretty strong evidence the builder did something wrong.

[ACRSNK]

I hate when people try to be shady. Stand up and stand behind your work and products! Hope they make it right for you.

[ViperGeorge]

Until the engine is torn down it is hard to know what caused the failure. Remember that bearings that fail leave telltale signs of what caused the problem. Dick Winkles reviewed this on a few engines that failed and which Dodge refused to warranty because they had the Arrow PCM. It was explained that debris leaves different marks on the bearings than detonation or other faults. Dick was able to show that the engines failed because of debris not because of the PCM. You can google images of failed bearings by cause.

So a close examination of the bearings should be able to tell whether the problem was caused by debris, low oil, detonation, whatever. The failure might have nothing to do with bearings, the oil cooler, or lines. Maybe the oil pump failed or maybe the engine builder did something wrong inside. Only way to tell is to tear into the engine.

[Mikey]

Until the engine is torn down it is hard to know what caused the failure. Remember that bearings that fail leave telltale signs of what caused the problem. Dick Winkles reviewed this on a few engines that failed and which Dodge refused to warranty because they had the Arrow PCM. It was explained that debris leaves different marks on the bearings than detonation or other faults. Dick was able to show that the engines failed because of debris not because of the PCM. You can google images of failed bearings by cause.

So a close examination of the bearings should be able to tell whether the problem was caused by debris, low oil, detonation, whatever. The failure might have nothing to do with bearings, the oil cooler, or lines. Maybe the oil pump failed or maybe the engine builder did something wrong inside. Only way to tell is to tear into the engine.

Good point, this is probably what Kevin was referring to
The "good news" is, motor is already crated up and will be shipped on Monday, Kevin will be getting into it as soon as it arrives

[SLYBRI]

Cooler itself may be NLA, good salvage (aka no motor blow) may exist, but aftermarket line options exist for sure if OE is no longer available (arguably an upgrade).

[Lawineer]

Until the engine is torn down it is hard to know what caused the failure. Remember that bearings that fail leave telltale signs of what caused the problem. Dick Winkles reviewed this on a few engines that failed and which Dodge refused to warranty because they had the Arrow PCM. It was explained that debris leaves different marks on the bearings than detonation or other faults. Dick was able to show that the engines failed because of debris not because of the PCM. You can google images of failed bearings by cause.

So a close examination of the bearings should be able to tell whether the problem was caused by debris, low oil, detonation, whatever. The failure might have nothing to do with bearings, the oil cooler, or lines. Maybe the oil pump failed or maybe the engine builder did something wrong inside. Only way to tell is to tear into the engine.

I'm hardly a failure analysis expert but I dont think detonation leaves a mark on the road bearings. Detonation is pretty easy to spot. Your piston is cracked.

Unless Mikey was revving this think to 9k or something, it's hard to imagine it's anything but the builder responsibility. I don't know WHY (debris, building, parts, whatever), but its 600 miles.

[ViperGeorge]

I'm hardly a failure analysis expert but I dont think detonation leaves a mark on the road bearings. Detonation is pretty easy to spot. Your piston is cracked.

Unless Mikey was revving this think to 9k or something, it's hard to imagine it's anything but the builder responsibility. I don't know WHY (debris, building, parts, whatever), but its 600 miles.

Detonation causes bearing fatigue. I believe it leaves "hammer" like damage to bearings. Detonation strong enough to crack a piston would probably have damaged the bearings as well. Lots of articles on the web about what impact various problems have on bearings. Here are just a couple of references, both mention detonation as a cause of bearing failure:

https://www.enginebuildermag.com/2018/10/analyzing-fatigue-and-distress/
https://www.substech.com/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=failures_of_engine_bearings_and_their_ prevention

[Mikey]

We'll figure out what happened next week. Kevin is looking to get this turned over quickly, thankfully. There are aftermarket cooler and lines available, I'll be purchasing straight from Kevin to avoid any further discrepancies

[V10LEE]

Mikey man sorry to hear about all this what you're going through. If it was my Viper I would of just had a transport company ship the car directly to Kevin in Reno from the beginning. Best of luck

[Lawineer]

Detonation causes bearing fatigue. I believe it leaves "hammer" like damage to bearings. Detonation strong enough to crack a piston would probably have damaged the bearings as well. Lots of articles on the web about what impact various problems have on bearings. Here are just a couple of references, both mention detonation as a cause of bearing failure:

https://www.enginebuildermag.com/2018/10/analyzing-fatigue-and-distress/
https://www.substech.com/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=failures_of_engine_bearings_and_their_ prevention

It leaves a hell of a mark on pistons too. Detonation is a “snap” rather than a slow burn causing the rod to push down hard into the journal to spin a bearing.


It would probably take a lot more than 600 problem free miles to do it. I’m not even sure how it would do it with knock sensors and not throwing a code, but I guess anything is possible. I’d be extremely surprised if it was detonation given it was running smoothly beforehand and totality of circumstances. Hell, even if it’s knocking, rod or piston, that’s on the engine builder as well. Especially at low load. That’s one hell of a shit tune if that’s the case.

[Mikey]

It leaves a hell of a mark on pistons too. Detonation is a “snap” rather than a slow burn causing the rod to push down hard into the journal to spin a bearing.


It would probably take a lot more than 600 problem free miles to do it. I’m not even sure how it would do it with knock sensors and not throwing a code, but I guess anything is possible. I’d be extremely surprised if it was detonation given it was running smoothly beforehand and totality of circumstances. Hell, even if it’s knocking, rod or piston, that’s on the engine builder as well. Especially at low load. That’s one hell of a shit tune if that’s the case.

I'd be surprised if it was the tune, prefix set up the tune specifically for my motor

[Mikey]

Mikey man sorry to hear about all this what you're going through. If it was my Viper I would of just had a transport company ship the car directly to Kevin in Reno from the beginning. Best of luck

That would have been the plan initially, I wasn't sure if he only did motors are complete installs at the time

[Docmartin]

Wow I missed alot over the last few days. Very sorry to see you dealing with this Mikey.

I had my outlet oil cooler line replaced at the end of last November by the dealer. I'm happy to provide the invoice if it is at helpful in your pursuit of resolution. Best of luck!

[V10LEE]

That would have been the plan initially, I wasn't sure if he only did motors are complete installs at the time

He does both ive talked to Kevin he told me I could drive to his shop , and drop my Viper off. Im about an hour from Reno.

[Mikey]

Wow I missed alot over the last few days. Very sorry to see you dealing with this Mikey.

I had my outlet oil cooler line replaced at the end of last November by the dealer. I'm happy to provide the invoice if it is at helpful in your pursuit of resolution. Best of luck!

It's all good doc, I'm gonna get some through kevin

[Hardtopz28]

Idk- the fact that it went to shit in 600 miles is pretty strong evidence the builder did something wrong.

I can see a dirty oil cooler causing bearing damage but I cant see it causing the engine to kick something out of the bottom hard enough to crack a oil pan. I think its shitty for you to be billed for things that were never installed. Good luck man, hate your dealing with this

[Mikey]

I can see a dirty oil cooler causing bearing damage but I cant see it causing the engine to kick something out of the bottom hard enough to crack a oil pan. I think its shitty for you to be billed for things that were never installed. Good luck man, hate your dealing with this

Once Kevin gets into the teardown, I'll see how I want to approach the situation. There's about 2k in parts that I did not receive (rack, cooler, and lines). If the cooler and lines turn out not to be the cause, I'd heavily suggest that the money that he charged for new parts that he never installed should make us even

[Hardtopz28]

Good luck man I wish you all the best. I know how you feel I went through the first part of you situation with a zr1 and will prob never own another corvette due to that experience.

[7TH_SIGN]

So Prefix did the rebuild and it still failed? I’m sorry man. This is horrible to go through. This is NOT your fault! FCA quality is hit or miss. I had non-mechanical issues with only 200 miles on my GEN V and Prefix really came through for me when FCA refused to correct their own mistake. Seeing a couple others with engine and drivetrain issues along with the recalls and FCA refusing warranty coverage, forced me to sell my GEN V. I do miss it at times but definitely not the headaches.

For these cars there are really only two shops I trust and that’s Calvo and Nth Moto. However at this point and with all the money you have spent, I would completely understand you wanting to sell it. I wish you all the best. Hopefully one day you can get back to enjoying owning a fun car.

[Mikey]

So Prefix did the rebuild and it still failed? I’m sorry man. This is horrible to go through. This is NOT your fault! FCA quality is hit or miss. I had non-mechanical issues with only 200 miles on my GEN V and Prefix really came through for me when FCA refused to correct their own mistake. Seeing a couple others with engine and drivetrain issues along with the recalls and FCA refusing warranty coverage, forced me to sell my GEN V. I do miss it at times but definitely not the headaches.

For these cars there are really only two shops I trust and that’s Calvo and Nth Moto. However at this point and with all the money you have spent, I would completely understand you wanting to sell it. I wish you all the best. Hopefully one day you can get back to enjoying owning a fun car.


It was built by Kevin Singleton at EED, prefix only did the ecu tune
I'm still waiting for the motor to be shipped off, it's been on a pallet for a week now

[7TH_SIGN]

It was built by Kevin Singleton at EED, prefix only did the ecu tune
I'm still waiting for the motor to be shipped off, it's been on a pallet for a week now

Oh, got you. Damn man. Two different shops… One built the engine and the other tuned it? This is a guaranteed nightmare. Hopefully one of the two step forward and take accountability. Someone is at fault and it’s not you.

[Lawineer]

Once Kevin gets into the teardown, I'll see how I want to approach the situation. There's about 2k in parts that I did not receive (rack, cooler, and lines). If the cooler and lines turn out not to be the cause, I'd heavily suggest that the money that he charged for new parts that he never installed should make us even
I am very optimistic about the guy who took your money for parts he didn’t install taking apart the motor and telling you it was his fault and paying for a new engine built.

Jfc, I’m sorry you’re going through. I’m just sending my shit to Nth when/if it blows and paying their fee. What a mess.

[efnfast]

I am very optimistic about the guy who took your money for parts he didn’t install taking apart the motor and telling you it was his fault and paying for a new engine built.

Jfc, I’m sorry you’re going through. I’m just sending my shit to Nth when/if it blows and paying their fee. What a mess.

If i'm not mistaken it was the shop that did the install/uninstall that sold phantom parts, not the engine builder.


Oh, got you. Damn man. Two different shops… One built the engine and the other tuned it? This is a guaranteed nightmare. Hopefully one of the two step forward and take accountability. Someone is at fault and it’s not you.

That's how it's usually done unless you ship the car to the shop? I've had several engines built and all of them tuned by a different shop.

When parts try to exit via the oil pan I'm pretty sure that's an engine assembly issue.....

[Lawineer]

Oh Geeze
So there are three shops at play potentially?

[Mikey]

I am very optimistic about the guy who took your money for parts he didn’t install taking apart the motor and telling you it was his fault and paying for a new engine built.

Jfc, I’m sorry you’re going through. I’m just sending my shit to Nth when/if it blows and paying their fee. What a mess.


The phantom parts were from the installer.

[Voice of Reason]

The amount of finger pointing that’s about to happen is going to rival the Spider-Man meme. No one is going to own up to this despite the appearance of it being caused by the old oil cooler and lines.

[Mikey]

The amount of finger pointing that’s about to happen is going to rival the Spider-Man meme. No one is going to own up to this despite the appearance of it being caused by the old oil cooler and lines.

It has already begun. The engine has been sitting on a pallet, neither one called to set up a pickup until I called both of them.

[Mikey]

Oh Geeze
So there are three shops at play potentially?

Only 2, prefix only did the the tune on the ECU. Which both Kevin and the installer said was completely fine

[efnfast]

It has already begun. The engine has been sitting on a pallet, neither one called to set up a pickup until I called both of them.

Just wait until they try to blame the damage on shipping :/

On a 408W I had built (that was supposedly dynoed before shipping) one cylinder was stone cold dead on first start. Contacted my builder and he was like 'probably just some carbon buildup from the dyno, rev it up to like 6,500 to clean it out'

I didn't trust that so I pulled off the valve cover and found a rocker arm was 90* off the stud. Then when I asked him WTF he told me 'atmospheric changes during shipping likely caused metal expansion/contraction and popped the rocker arm off'

Yea..............

[Mikey]

I'm honestly EXTREMELY overwhelmed with this entire thing. If anyone can help me with this damn situation it would be GREATLY appreciated

[StrokerAce]

Just wait until they try to blame the damage on shipping :/

On a 408W I had built (that was supposedly dynoed before shipping) one cylinder was stone cold dead on first start. Contacted my builder and he was like 'probably just some carbon buildup from the dyno, rev it up to like 6,500 to clean it out'

I didn't trust that so I pulled off the valve cover and found a rocker arm was 90* off the stud. Then when I asked him WTF he told me 'atmospheric changes during shipping likely caused metal expansion/contraction and popped the rocker arm off'

Yea..............

53021

[13COBRA]

I'm honestly EXTREMELY overwhelmed with this entire thing. If anyone can help me with this damn situation it would be GREATLY appreciated

With what aspect of it?

[Mikey]

With what aspect of it?

I guess with how to proceed if and when the finger pointing begins. I haven't brought up the used cooler and lines yet to the installer

[Lawineer]

(drafts engagement agreement)


In all seriousness, I am willing to bet the assembler blames the builder and the builder blames the assembler.

[TIME]

I'm honestly EXTREMELY overwhelmed with this entire thing. If anyone can help me with this damn situation it would be GREATLY appreciated

One step at the time. Get the engine to Kevin. Let him assess the damage, then go from there.
Note: I live close to Reno.

[Martin]

First thing I would do is research what kinds of E&O insurance each of them have. Check their licensing status where they do business.

I've got to imagine they both must maintain enough insurance to make this problem go away. If it were me, I'd get the insurance companies of both of them doing the investigation and let them do the finger pointing. You shouldn't have to go through this - it just adds insult to injury.

[Lawineer]

First thing I would do is research what kinds of E&O insurance each of them have. Check their licensing status where they do business.

I've got to imagine they both must maintain enough insurance to make this problem go away. If it were me, I'd get the insurance companies of both of them doing the investigation and let them do the finger pointing. You shouldn't have to go through this - it just adds insult to injury.

I seriously doubt E&O covers this and I also doubt licensing is needed (or would matter).

General insurance claims could cover something like this, but shops are probably just better off fixing it than making a claim.

[Martin]

I seriously doubt E&O covers this and I also doubt licensing is needed (or would matter).

General insurance claims could cover something like this, but shops are probably just better off fixing it than making a claim.

I'm pretty sure that, in CA at least, shops need to have a business license in good standing, and liability insurance is required. I've had a few instances where some expensive stuff got broken because the shop's error, and their insurance paid the claim. Not sure what the rules are in other states, though. In this situation, it might make the finger pointing less rampant if both shops have liability insurance to cover E&O.

https://jjinsurance.com/auto-repair-shop-insurance/

[Lawineer]

I'm pretty sure that, in CA at least, shops need to have a business license in good standing, and liability insurance is required. I've had a few instances where some expensive stuff got broken because the shop's error, and their insurance paid the claim. Not sure what the rules are in other states, though. In this situation, it might make the finger pointing less rampant if both shops have liability insurance to cover E&O.

https://jjinsurance.com/auto-repair-shop-insurance/

That doesn't say it's required by law unless I'm missing something.

[Martin]

That doesn't say it's required by law unless I'm missing something.

It may be different in different states - but in CA, any shop that does work must be licensed and bonded in order to get and maintain a business license. It's probably not "illegal" for them to not carry the insurance, but the moment the Bureau of Automotive Repair gets a complaint that someone broke someone's car due to an error, and they don't have the required insurance, they lose their business license. I believe in Nevada, it's the same thing - although the bonding requirement is different ($5000 for mechanical, $10,000 for body shops).

This is the sentence that I zeroed in on: "No matter what specialty, every auto repair shop needs general liability insurance, errors and omissions, and commercial property insurance."

It certainly doesn't hurt for Mikey to look into it and ask some tough questions from the service providers. I'd ask for the declarations pages of the policies that they must maintain in order to keep their business licenses in good standing.

[Lawineer]

It may be different in different states - but in CA, any shop that does work must be licensed and bonded in order to get and maintain a business license. It's probably not "illegal" for them to not carry the insurance, but the moment the Bureau of Automotive Repair gets a complaint that someone broke someone's car due to an error, and they don't have the required insurance, they lose their business license. I believe in Nevada, it's the same thing - although the bonding requirement is different ($5000 for mechanical, $10,000 for body shops).

This is the sentence that I zeroed in on: "No matter what specialty, every auto repair shop needs general liability insurance, errors and omissions, and commercial property insurance."

It certainly doesn't hurt for Mikey to look into it and ask some tough questions from the service providers. I'd ask for the declarations pages of the policies that they must maintain in order to keep their business licenses in good standing.

It's a website for insurance brokers. I think they mean need like "it's a really good idea" and not "legally mandated."

Also, being bonded is very different than insured. Either way, I doubt they'll make an insurance claim. It's not like someone was killed. It's a $20k engine that probably costs them half as much in hard costs.

[ellowviper]

Not to hi-jack, but BIG-O tires in Yuma paid my repair bill when a rear tire on my F-350 broke lose, sheared all 8 lugs and sent a 35" wheel and tire down I-8 at 70 MPH. Corporate denied the claim since 5000 miles had been driven, but local BIG-O store felt obligated since they were the last to work on tires/truck and paid the repair bill from FORD in Phoenix. I guess it "just depends" on the ethics and integrity of the shop.

[Mikey]

A consumer protection attorney got ahold of me (they're not as plentiful as you'd think). Told him the situation and he's interested in taking it once I have more details.

I contacted the shop for a full refund and denied the offered credit. He hasn't responded yet. If I have to come out of pocket on the the rebuild, I'm sending the entire car to Calvo

[boost everything]

If there is anything I learned from this thread it's that I was gonna send just my engine to prefix but now I'm gonna ship the entire car and have them do everything. This thread just hurts to read. I hope you get everything taken care of, I'm rooting for you.

[Mikey]

If there is anything I learned from this thread it's that I was gonna send just my engine to prefix but now I'm gonna ship the entire car and have them do everything. This thread just hurts to read. I hope you get everything taken care of, I'm rooting for you.

I'd highly recommend that. For reference, Calvo "only" charges 8k for a rebuild (pull, install, etc). If they had gotten back to me before I pulled the motor the first time, I would have went that route

This is the 2nd shop I'm working with after having issues with the recommended one for the North Texas members. Finding reputable help is truly hard to find

[Sniper]

Can you tune a decently aggressive heads cam Viper with the Prefix Viper Gen 5 Race Control Module?

[Mikey]

Can you tune a decently aggressive heads cam Viper with the Prefix Viper Gen 5 Race Control Module?

I think the race control module is just preloaded, if you call Torrie at Unleashed, he can tune the stock ecu.

[Sniper]

I was asking as I heard this ECU is more tunable than HPTuners…

[Mikey]

I was asking as I heard this ECU is more tunable than HPTuners…

Call Scott at Prefix and ask, I don't have any experience with the performance module

[Steve M]

I was asking as I heard this ECU is more tunable than HPTuners…

They have access to the source code, so there's a pretty good chance they'll be able to do a much better job than anyone can do with HPTuners.

There's always going to be limitations with OEM computers, and it will always boil down to who is doing the tuning, but they have the best tools for the job, no questions asked.

[Sniper]

Well, I asked and they said they can’t tune it so it must not have more access.

[Steve M]

Well, I asked and they said they can’t tune it so it must not have more access.

Can't or won't?

If they can't, it's likely a limitation with the OEM computer. Big cams with lots of overlap can give any tuner fits trying to get it just right. If they don't, the end user can end up with idle issues and surging. I think the biggest issue is the lack of vacuum - without good vacuum, the MAP sensor, which is a big part of your fueling calculations, doesn't have enough dynamic range. You can get around this to an extent with an alpha-N scheme (TPS vs. RPM), but that's custom code that would have to be written - too much trouble for a limited market.

There's always Motec...

[Sniper]

This was all the comment I got
No sorry.

It seems like I remember reading that someone had a heads cam car which they gave Prefix the specs and they were able to send a tuned computer.

[Mikey]

This was all the comment I got
No sorry.

It seems like I remember reading that someone had a heads cam car which they gave Prefix the specs and they were able to send a tuned computer.

Maybe you're thinking about mine. Kevin sent my ECU to them to have it tuned to my engine, but it was the stock ECU.
Give Torrie a call

[Sniper]

So Prefix tuned your stock ECU for a heads cam car?
But they couldn’t tune their own ECU for a heads cam car?

[Mikey]

So Prefix tuned your stock ECU for a heads cam car?
But they couldn’t tune their own ECU for a heads cam car?

Idk how much "tuning" was involved. I believe the race controller is all they use with their heads/cam package. I wouldn't be surprised if they just put their race module settings onto my ECU.

Hard to say, as I don't know the specs of my cam

[Sniper]

Any way to find out what they did to your ECU?
Did you have to give them all the specs of what you were doing to your motor?

[Mikey]

Any way to find out what they did to your ECU?
Did you have to give them all the specs of what you were doing to your motor?

I didn't have any contact with prefix at all, don't even know the specs of my cam
You'd really have to contact them and see what they can do, my builder is not very responsive currently

[Space Truckin]

"my builder is not very responsive currently"

That's a shock...:furious:

[Mikey]

That's a shock...:furious:

We'll see what happens once he gets the motor torn down, I'm still waiting on a refund for the phantom parts by the installer

[Martin]

We'll see what happens once he gets the motor torn down, I'm still waiting on a refund for the phantom parts by the installer

So he's received the engine and he's going to tear it down? That may make it a bit tough to demand a refund and then take the money and go to Calvo for a one-stop-shop resolution. Just chiming in from the sidelines because that sounds like it might make things even more complicated. If they haven't picked up the engine yet, I'd cancel the pickup and have Calvo do an analysis of what went wrong while they're doing the rebuild. They're trusted, and if your builder hasn't been responsive, I would just cut this off, demand a refund, send it all to Calvo when they pay up, and be done with it.

[Sniper]

Easier said than done

[Martin]

Easier said than done

Yeah, agreed. But, I've been in a number of similar situations and I learned from my mistakes. I used to be one of those guys who would go along with what a service provider told me to do. Now, if I'm paying people good money to do good work, I treat them just like my customers treat me - with respect, but no excuses about screwing something up and not making it right.

This is one that, in a perfect world, Mikey could hit the reset button and start all over again fresh. Closest thing to that is to get the money back, send it to Calvo, and get back to normal life.

[Mikey]

So he's received the engine and he's going to tear it down? That may make it a bit tough to demand a refund and then take the money and go to Calvo for a one-stop-shop resolution. Just chiming in from the sidelines because that sounds like it might make things even more complicated. If they haven't picked up the engine yet, I'd cancel the pickup and have Calvo do an analysis of what went wrong while they're doing the rebuild. They're trusted, and if your builder hasn't been responsive, I would just cut this off, demand a refund, send it all to Calvo when they pay up, and be done with it.

Engine has already been shipped, I'm not expecting a refund but for it to be fixed without me coming out of pocket. I don't believe it has arrived in Reno yet.

I'm pushing for the installer to send back the money for the parts that weren't installed

[AAA96]

So he's received the engine and he's going to tear it down? That may make it a bit tough to demand a refund and then take the money and go to Calvo for a one-stop-shop resolution. Just chiming in from the sidelines because that sounds like it might make things even more complicated. If they haven't picked up the engine yet, I'd cancel the pickup and have Calvo do an analysis of what went wrong while they're doing the rebuild. They're trusted, and if your builder hasn't been responsive, I would just cut this off, demand a refund, send it all to Calvo when they pay up, and be done with it.

I agree 100% with this.

[Steve M]

So Prefix tuned your stock ECU for a heads cam car?
But they couldn’t tune their own ECU for a heads cam car?

This sounds like a business relationship vs. private party thing to me.

Prefix must know the engine builder well enough to trust what they've done, so they were okay tuning it.

If someone randomly approaches them with the same request, that's a lot of risk to take on, especially if they know nothing about the parts or the skill of the builder that put it all together. If I were in their shoes, I'd probably decline too. Too much risk for what little (if any) reward there would be.

Whether it is their race PCM or the stock PCM doesn't matter - I'm 99.9% sure they have the tools and ability to tune either. But it has to be on their terms, or it's a no-go.

[Mikey]

Yeah, agreed. But, I've been in a number of similar situations and I learned from my mistakes. I used to be one of those guys who would go along with what a service provider told me to do. Now, if I'm paying people good money to do good work, I treat them just like my customers treat me - with respect, but no excuses about screwing something up and not making it right.

This is one that, in a perfect world, Mikey could hit the reset button and start all over again fresh. Closest thing to that is to get the money back, send it to Calvo, and get back to normal life.

I was 2 days late of an email response from that, unfortunately. Engine pulled, repaired, installed would have been 8k, maybe 10 with shipping. I think with a heads and cam, 40k due to the motec system.

All I can do is wait for now, HOPEFULLY the motor gets fixed and all I pay is for labor for pull and install

[efnfast]

I was 2 days late of an email response from that, unfortunately. Engine pulled, repaired, installed would have been 8k, maybe 10 with shipping. I think with a heads and cam, 40k due to the motec system.

All I can do is wait for now, HOPEFULLY the motor gets fixed and all I pay is for labor for pull and install

Somebody's going to have a pretty big bill - if something tried to exit through the oil pan I can't imagine that's good news for the crank/pistons/cylinder walls - hopefully not you.

[Mikey]

Somebody's going to have a pretty big bill - if something tried to exit through the oil pan I can't imagine that's good news for the crank/pistons/cylinder walls - hopefully not you.

And that's my sign to take some nyquil

[7TH_SIGN]

Mikey, I had a very similar experience back around 2005. I purchased parts from one shop and was having the car built by another shop. It was a nightmare. I promised myself that the next time I would have the car built completely under one roof.

I see you are in Texas, you have one of the greatest Viper shops there. As many in this thread have already stated, Calvo is your very best option to get this car correct and done right.

Going the attorney route can be just as bad of a nightmare as you are already going through. My best advice would be to come to some kind of acceptable and fair agreement with all parties currently involved that hits you the least financially. Then, either sell it or get it done right and ship the car to Calvo.

Really hope things get better and you can go back to enjoying it.

[Mikey]

Mikey, I had a very similar experience back around 2005. I purchased parts from one shop and was having the car built by another shop. It was a nightmare. I promised myself that the next time I would have the car built completely under one roof.

I see you are in Texas, you have one of the greatest Viper shops there. As many in this thread have already stated, Calvo is your very best option to get this car correct and done right.

Going the attorney route can be just as bad of a nightmare as you are already going through. My best advice would be to come to some kind of acceptable and fair agreement with all parties currently involved that hits you the least financially. Then, either sell it or get it done right and ship the car to Calvo.

Really hope things get better and you can go back to enjoying it.

That's the plan, I want to at least know what failed on the motor and go from there. The installer is friends with Calvo, which is surprising considering the unsatisfactory work I've received so far.

[7TH_SIGN]

That's the plan, I want to at least know what failed on the motor and go from there. The installer is friends with Calvo, which is surprising considering the unsatisfactory work I've received so far.

I think that’s a good thing for you. I’m sure Calvo will have it running better than ever.

[Mikey]

I think that’s a good thing for you. I’m sure Calvo will have it running better than ever.

I'm still not sure if he'll touch it, he wasn't a fan of the crank cut

[Sniper]

This sounds like a business relationship vs. private party thing to me.

Prefix must know the engine builder well enough to trust what they've done, so they were okay tuning it.

If someone randomly approaches them with the same request, that's a lot of risk to take on, especially if they know nothing about the parts or the skill of the builder that put it all together. If I were in their shoes, I'd probably decline too. Too much risk for what little (if any) reward there would be.

Whether it is their race PCM or the stock PCM doesn't matter - I'm 99.9% sure they have the tools and ability to tune either. But it has to be on their terms, or it's a no-go.

They didn’t even ask about who’s doing the engine. And they just did Mikey’s and this is a reputable builder?

[Steve M]

They didn’t even ask about who’s doing the engine. And they just did Mikey’s and this is a reputable builder?

That's my point.

Known engine builder calls Prefix = maybe they'll tune it. That's a company to company interaction, not private party to company.

Random person calls Prefix = no

You either have to be a known quantity with a reputable business, or you have to buy everything from them so they at least know parts they trust were used.

[Sniper]

Gotcha

[Jack B]

Maybe the HC came from prefix therefore, the tune was a known entity. Or the builder shared the A/F and timing data from a dyno pull. From multiple experiences with prefix, I highly doubt they would provide a tune on an unknown build,




That's my point.

Known engine builder calls Prefix = maybe they'll tune it. That's a company to company interaction, not private party to company.

Random person calls Prefix = no

You either have to be a known quantity with a reputable business, or you have to buy everything from them so they at least know parts they trust were used.

[Viperawi]

If there is anything I learned from this thread it's that I was gonna send just my engine to prefix but now I'm gonna ship the entire car and have them do everything. This thread just hurts to read. I hope you get everything taken care of, I'm rooting for you.

Totally agree, this thread just hurts to read.
I am going through something similar with a failed engine, so a lot of learnings from this thread.

I really wish you all the best Mikey.

[Sniper]

I just went through losing $2300 for a Vivid Racing diffuser I bought from Que Anthony Racing. Had to wait 7 months just to be told the company doesn’t make this anymore and Vivid refunded Anthony the money who wasn’t even in business any longer and Que Anthony told me he’d refund me once he got the money. I confirmed with Que Anthony vhe received the money and would send me a money order and then he quit answering my texts and phone calls.

[Mikey]

I just went through losing $2300 for a Vivid Racing diffuser I bought from Que Anthony Racing. Had to wait 7 months just to be told the company doesn’t make this anymore and Vivid refunded Anthony the money who wasn’t even in business any longer and Que Anthony told me he’d refund me once he got the money. I confirmed with Que Anthony vhe received the money and would send me a money order and then he quit answering my texts and phone calls.

Never deal with vivid, dispute with your credit card company

[Sniper]

It’s Que Anthony Racing who I bought it through who purchased from Vivid Racing. I tried disputing with my CC company and they denied as it happened too long ago.

[Mikey]

Motor should be reaching Reno either today or tomorrow. Moment of truth

[Lawineer]

It will probably be a moment of ambiguity.

Odds of there being damage to only bearing (meaning it is clearly the builder's responsibility) or a lot of damage to all bearings fairly evenly (with the exception of the spun one being obviously spun) is pretty low imo.

Even then, there were will be arguments that the spun bearing debris caused damage to the other bearings or that just a little debris got through and caught that one bearing.


I'll venture to guess the information you get will create just as many questions as answers it provides.

[Mikey]

I feel uneasy with my car sitting at that shop. He still hasn't refunded me the 2k in parts. I can only imagine other things miraculously going wrong on my car if things turn ugly

[Mikey]

So I'm finally getting my refund for the phantom parts and I receive a text from the installer. "OK, I have to determine the time in cleaning the cooler and lines with ultrasonic and all."

Unbelievable.

[Jack B]

The pan is fractured, that means something came loose, not just a spun bearing. Maybe I missed the post, but, a failure like this is associated with a lot of noise.



It will probably be a moment of ambiguity.

Odds of there being damage to only bearing (meaning it is clearly the builder's responsibility) or a lot of damage to all bearings fairly evenly (with the exception of the spun one being obviously spun) is pretty low imo.

Even then, there were will be arguments that the spun bearing debris caused damage to the other bearings or that just a little debris got through and caught that one bearing.


I'll venture to guess the information you get will create just as many questions as answers it provides.

[Mikey]

The pan is fractured, that means something came loose, not just a spun bearing. Maybe I missed the post, but, a failure like this is associated with a lot of noise.

The first failure made wayyyyyy more noise. No noise until I got off the toll road this go around

[Lawineer]

The pan is fractured, that means something came loose, not just a spun bearing. Maybe I missed the post, but, a failure like this is associated with a lot of noise.
Ah yes. I forgot about this detail.

Something coming loose is definitely on the engine builder.

[ViperSRT]

Ah yes. I forgot about this detail.

Something coming loose is definitely on the engine builder.

Too much certainty in that statement. So you are stating all engines that fail with broken conn rods are due to misassembly? I don’t agree.

[Mikey]

Prior to the no oil message. The only sound was a very slight flutter coming from the passenger side, I thought maybe the 02 wiring was rattling there, I had to turn the stereo all the way down to hear it. Shortly after the oil pressure went to 0, it felt like maybe something popped off, there was no noise until I got further down the road

[TIME]

So I'm finally getting my refund for the phantom parts and I receive a text from the installer. "OK, I have to determine the time in cleaning the cooler and lines with ultrasonic and all."

Unbelievable.

There could still be contaminants in the "cooler and lines" after ultrasonic cleaning. Worth checking and definitely not re-use those components.

[Martin]

There could still be contaminants in the "cooler and lines" after ultrasonic cleaning. Worth checking and definitely not re-use those components.

I think that the shop is playing games - they're going to try and charge for the amount of time they did something that Mikey didn't ask them to do. Then, they'll deduct their time from the refund. If that's the case, it's a real a-hole maneuver.

[13COBRA]

Mikey,

I would told him there's no reason to add up time for 'cleaning' out the lines. You were originally charged to replace all of it...it wasn't replaced. At this point you have no faith that any work was done to the lines or coolers. You demand a full refund.

[Lawineer]

Too much certainty in that statement. So you are stating all engines that fail with broken conn rods are due to misassembly? I don’t agree.


All? No. I guess there could be some horrible manufacturing defect that he couldn't see/detect, but damn near all of the time, if a part comes loose, flying off the engine and smashes into the oil pan in 500 miles, yea... pretty much.

[Mikey]

He of course came up with more excuses, I'm trying to tread lightly as my car is sitting in his shop.

The motor left Los Angeles thus morning, looks like it'll reach Reno at the end of the day today or tomorrow morning

[13COBRA]

He of course came up with more excuses, I'm trying to tread lightly as my car is sitting in his shop.

The motor left Los Angeles thus morning, looks like it'll reach Reno at the end of the day today or tomorrow morning

I mean...I'd go get my car.

[Mikey]

I mean...I'd go get my car.

The issue is, and take it where?

[13COBRA]

The issue is, and take it where?

I'd bring it back to my house until I get all this sorted out.

[Mikey]

I'd bring it back to my house until I get all this sorted out.

With no motor and a steep incline that would be ambitious. The motor should be getting to Kevin tomorrow morning, depending on what shows during the tear down I'll probably just send the entire car to either Kevin or calvo

[ViperSRT]

All? No. I guess there could be some horrible manufacturing defect that he couldn't see/detect, but damn near all of the time, if a part comes loose, flying off the engine and smashes into the oil pan in 500 miles, yea... pretty much.

Guess we agree to disagree on that. Most failures I have seen are operational (engine overspeed like a missed shift), detonation or preignition (piston failure) and bearing failure. With many bearing failures resulting in bearing seizure which ends up breaking the rod. All of the above have parts flying around with no misassembly.

[Mikey]

Guess we agree to disagree on that. Most failures I have seen are operational (engine overspeed like a missed shift), detonation or preignition (piston failure) and bearing failure. With many bearing failures resulting in bearing seizure which ends up breaking the rod. All of the above have parts flying around with no misassembly.

Went over my head, but I'm 100% certain I didn't overrev

[C5Longhorn]

With no motor and a steep incline that would be ambitious. The motor should be getting to Kevin tomorrow morning, depending on what shows during the tear down I'll probably just send the entire car to either Kevin or calvo

Consider renting a storage unit for a month and keep the car there. It may be worth $150 - $200 for piece of mind. I stored a car in one for a couple of months while in between houses and it worked out well.

[13COBRA]

I would just want it out of the shop that you don't trust.

[Martin]

Consider renting a storage unit for a month and keep the car there. It may be worth $150 - $200 for piece of mind. I stored a car in one for a couple of months while in between houses and it worked out well.

If you have AAA, they'll flatbed it to your home - or if that doesn't make sense, I agree that putting it in a drive-in storage unit would be a good plan. I've stored cars in them, and they're great - not too expensive, often have an electrical outlet for a tender, and they have an industrial strength door and lock.

[Jack B]

at 70 mph, that hides lot of noise, but, not vibration



The first failure made wayyyyyy more noise. No noise until I got off the toll road this go around

[Jack B]

I had a new marine engine where the rod fractured near the piston. it was a totally clean break, The engine ran for about 30 seconds. The rod acted like a cutting tool, it nearly severed the crankcase part of the block into two pieces. It cut deep enough to slice through the water jackets. The crank also broke in two, but, the pan was not damaged.

The above failure has nothing to do with this thread. The amount of damage to this viper's oil pan is amazing. The viper's oil pan is a structural member

[Martin]

Hopefully they take a shit ton of photos, in high resolution, of everything. It's clear that Mikey trusts the builder, and trusts that he'll do the right thing. But as I paraphrase a saying, "Trust But Verify."

[Mikey]

Motor was just delivered, lets see what happens

Still no refund.

[ACRSNK]

Keeping fingers crossed for you. Hope you can get this sorted and put this whole fiasco behind you. Hope they do the right thing. Definitely not enough of that happening these days. Everyone just wants to blame everybody else without taking responsibility for anything. Very sad state of affairs.

[Mikey]

Keeping fingers crossed for you. Hope you can get this sorted and put this whole fiasco behind you. Hope they do the right thing. Definitely not enough of that happening these days. Everyone just wants to blame everybody else without taking responsibility for anything. Very sad state of affairs.

Thanks man, I don't trust this shop AT ALL. I'm starting to wonder if this is why he no longer works for Dallas Performance

[quickster2]

What a bummer for you. Hope it works out. You may want to consider going to a 3rd party unless you have some confidence that the builder will make it right. A third party would be able to document the failure(s) and potentially ascertain root cause. Just a thought. Only you can determine the path forward. Best of luck.

[Mikey]

Haven't heard back from him yet, hoping foe the best, preparing for the worst. Best case scenario, it's fixed and just needs a reinstall, I'm hoping Dallas Performance will take the job

Edit:motor goes on the stand tomorrow

[ViperC]

Haven't heard back from him yet, hoping foe the best, preparing for the worst. Best case scenario, it's fixed and just needs a reinstall, I'm hoping Dallas Performance will take the job

Edit:motor goes on the stand tomorrow

Looking forward to updates.

[Mikey]

Still no refund and he hasn't told me where that "flush" for the oil cooler was done.

[Mikey]

Just got off the phone with Kevin, the entire block is cracked in half. He said it looks like they started the motor with no oil in it before hand, everything is covered in debris.

[Lawineer]

The block is cracked in half? How the hell is that possible?

It sounds like a bunch of debris left over in an old engine oil cooler got into the new engine is what it sounds like.

[Mikey]

The block is cracked in half? How the hell is that possible?

It sounds like a bunch of debris left over in an old engine oil cooler got into the new engine is what it sounds like.

That's pretty much what he said, he said everything was contaminated
He gave me the details, but went over my head

[efnfast]

wow, that sucks - I'm surprised you could have catastrophic damage like that yet make it 500 miles without any signs.

[Voice of Reason]

The engine builder just blamed the installer 100% for the failure. The installer is about to do the reverse. You may as well call your lawyer now.

[Space Truckin]

"the entire block is cracked in half. He said it looks like they started the motor with no oil in it before hand"

I am just a backyard mechanic (I know my skill level, maybe 3/5 wrenches dependent upon task), I need someone to explain how this even happens...cannot even wrap my head around this statement...wtf

[Mikey]

I am just a backyard mechanic (I know my skill level, maybe 3/5 wrenches dependent upon task), I need someone to explain how this even happens...cannot even wrap my head around this statement...wtf

Maybe I misheard, but the block is definitely cracked, I heard "in half" but he could have been referring to some other component. Needless to say, the entire motor is toast. He's still trying to pull the cam out

[Dan Cragin]

I've worked with Kevin at Exotic Engine for over 20 years. He does the job right and when there is a problem, he takes care of it.
In regards to Gen 4-5 engines, he has done many for me since 2008. Iv'e never had a failure. They get run in and qualified before they go
out.

It seems this is a installer issue, but that's just my opinion, yours could differ.

[Mikey]

The engine builder just blamed the installer 100% for the failure. The installer is about to do the reverse. You may as well call your lawyer now.

Already on it

[Mikey]

The engine builder just blamed the installer 100% for the failure. The installer is about to do the reverse. You may as well call your lawyer now.

Already on it, but the fact that he could tell that the oil cooler wasn't replaced without telling him says a lot. In my opinion, at least

[Lawineer]

What the hell broke the oil pan then? How does the block crack from bad oil?

[Mikey]

What the hell broke the oil pan then? How does the block crack from bad oil?

I forgot what part he said hit the oil pan, but that was the piece that I heard bouncing around during the failure

[Mikey]

After this is settled, hopefully without me having to pay for it...again, I'm done. I see the gallardo performantes are coming back down in price. If anyone can get me a decent deal on one, I'd be interested....after I sell this nightmare or course

[ViperSRT]

I forgot what part he said hit the oil pan, but that was the piece that I heard bouncing around during the failure

Very hard to interpret given the descriptions so far. But it sounds like a broken connecting rod. Which ended up damaging both the block and the oil pan. Bearing seizure is a likely cause for the rod fracture. If debris is the cause there should be clear debris related damage to the main bearing which feeds oil to the seized rod bearing, along with with other bearings.

This failure can happen very suddenly when debris is introduced. What isn’t clear is how long symptoms were present during the 500 miles.

[Lawineer]

This is all really wild. Sending a rod into the oil pan isn't exactly common.

Obviously, something catastrophic happened to crack the block and oil pan.

[13COBRA]

Ah man. In for some shop notes. There's a lot going on here.

[Mikey]

Does anyone have anyone they recommend for shipping the car? Kevin has most of the parts to get started on a rebuild and I'd rather start now

[Brian E]

Does anyone have anyone they recommend for shipping the car? Kevin has most of the parts to get started on a rebuild and I'd rather start now

Call Drew. Best transport service I ever used.
https://www.southernintegrityautotransport.com/

[Mikey]

Call Drew. Best transport service I ever used.
https://www.southernintegrityautotransport.com/

Done, waiting on a call back

[Mikey]

Surprise surprise, installer told me to kick rocks BUT he'd cut me a deal on labor lmao.

[VENOM-TA]

Surprise surprise, installer told me to kick rocks BUT he'd cut me a deal on labor lmao. what a shame.. you’ve had incredibly bad luck with this car.. it’s not the car’s fault it’s the previous owner and apparently now the builder/installer.. this very same thing could be happening if you had a Lamborghini or a Porsche.. it’s really just an unfortunate set of events.. you’ve already got 30k+ invested and that sucks.. if Calvo or Nth Moto are available to do it I’d go that route.. there will be no finger pointing then..

[13COBRA]

Surprise surprise, installer told me to kick rocks BUT he'd cut me a deal on labor lmao.

Who is the installer?

[Mikey]

Who is the installer?

Luke Oas at L&L Performance

[Mikey]

what a shame.. you’ve had incredibly bad luck with this car.. it’s not the car’s fault it’s the previous owner and apparently now the builder/installer.. this very same thing could be happening if you had a Lamborghini or a Porsche.. it’s really just an unfortunate set of events.. you’ve already got 30k+ invested and that sucks.. if Calvo or Nth Moto are available to do it I’d go that route.. there will be no finger pointing then..

I already paid Kevin a deposit, I'm going to send the entire car over to him
Calvo was my next option but without a block and tx2k this weekend, I'd probably have to just buy an entire motor for him to agree to work on it. A mew crate would be ideal, but my portfolio is down 250k from last year, so I'm quite literally hemorrhaging cash at this point

[VENOM-TA]

I already paid Kevin a deposit, I'm going to send the entire car over to him
Calvo was my next option but without a block and tx2k this weekend, I'd probably have to just buy an entire motor for him to agree to work on it. A mew crate would be ideal, but my portfolio is down 250k from last year, so I'm quite literally hemorrhaging cash at this point so this Kevin guy is doing it all and going to stand by his work?

[Mikey]

so this Kevin guy is doing it all and going to stand by his work?

I'm asking him about a warranty if I send the entire car

Warranty for 6 months. I don't race the car anyway, so that should be fine

[VENOM-TA]

I'm asking him about a warranty if I send the entire car

Warranty for 6 months. I don't race the car anyway, so that should be fine
He agreed to 6 months?

[Mikey]

He agreed to 6 months?

That's what he covers, yes

I don't want to go into the details too much as I'm starting up the legal process, but the evidence presented all indicates that debris got into the motor

[VENOM-TA]

That's what he covers, yes

I don't want to go into the details too much as I'm starting up the legal process, but the evidence presented all indicates that debris got into the motor
Good on both accounts.. if it’s proven the “cleaned” oil cooler is the culprit then the installer is on the hook..

[13COBRA]

I already paid Kevin a deposit, I'm going to send the entire car over to him
Calvo was my next option but without a block and tx2k this weekend, I'd probably have to just buy an entire motor for him to agree to work on it. A mew crate would be ideal, but my portfolio is down 250k from last year, so I'm quite literally hemorrhaging cash at this point

Kevin and Antonio are both great peeps.

[ViperGeorge]

Kevin and Antonio are both great peeps.

And Aaron Miller at Nth Moto is top notch too.

[ellowviper]

Call insurance company and ask about road debris coverage (you ran over something and heard a loud bang...lost oil pressure, and so forth) and how it cracked your oil pan causing catastrophic engine damage.

[Mikey]

Call insurance company and ask about road debris coverage (you ran over something and heard a loud bang...lost oil pressure, and so forth) and how it cracked your oil pan causing catastrophic engine damage.

I don't want to chance getting hit with fraud

[Dan Cragin]

Montway shipping is a broker that ships a lot of cars. the contract out, are insured and often pickup quickly.

[7TH_SIGN]

The engine builder just blamed the installer 100% for the failure. The installer is about to do the reverse. You may as well call your lawyer now.


Surprise surprise, installer told me to kick rocks BUT he'd cut me a deal on labor lmao.

As we predicted, the owner is the real victim in all this. I’m sorry Mikey. You should have never even had issues with the engine to begin with. FCA is trash. None of this is your fault. The only way I’d own a GEN V again would be if Calvo or Nth did a full rebuild on it. I completely understand you wanting to sell it after all this.