Any Fix Yet for Gen V Lazy Throttle Off Idle

[sadil]

Hey TKO Motorsport, is the rev match combo ready yet? Pricing?

[Steve M]

This thing is just amassing on my 2013, all you have to do is turn up the knob and It's like you just added another hundred horsepower. It's so fast the traction control can't even keep up. I was going to get another one for my 2010. But I am almost afraid to.

Great product TKO.

Now that I've had a chance to drive it, I'd say your statement is 100% accurate.

I'll make a few notes since this thread seems to have the bulk of the knowledge base for this particular mod:

1. For those wondering, this works perfectly with an HPTuners modified car. I'm pretty sure everyone already figured that out, but I just wanted to add yet another data point in case anyone was wondering.
2. I have mine set just shy of 50% - I had it up a bit higher at first, and ended up leaving my neighborhood like my hair was on fire. I dialed it back a bit after spinning the tires a bit harder than I wanted leaving a stop sign.
3. I personally think it is 100% necessary to have the adjustment knob easily accessible, at least while you are trying to figure things out. I have mine mounted in my center console, which ended up being perfect for my application. Easy to get to in a hurry, but out of the way to keep my fat fingers from bumping it during normal driving.

And now I will lodge my only complaint: the adjustment knob is fugly. I'm glad it is hidden in my setup, because it is an eyesore. It functions great, and is very necessary IMO, but I do wish it was a slightly smaller form factor. Most knobs like that allow you to remove the knob so you can mount the bulk of it behind a panel or something, but this one didn't seem to want to do that. Maybe it was just me.

Other than that, great product, no check engine lights, and a fairly easy install as long as you can reach the plugs. I'm not a small guy, so removing the front seat was pretty necessary for me to do a clean install.

[commandomatt]

Just bought a kit....thanks for bringing the thread back up as I forgot about it

[sharmut]

Do wish they get the revmatch combo out soon.

[Steve M]

Just bought a kit....thanks for bringing the thread back up as I forgot about it

It took me a couple of hours to install mine, mostly because I wanted to make sure everything was hidden. I also had most of my interior already apart since I was doing a rewire of my aftermarket stereo equipment, so that helped. If you have a slim build, you can get away with not removing the seat. Having the driver's seat out makes everything way easier...well, once you get the damn thing out. It took me forever to figure out how to get those things out of a coupe the first time I tried.

Since I put the switch in my center console, I had to cut the wire for the adjuster and install another connector...I didn't want to have to pull the entire wire if I ever need to remove the console for any reason. I also ditched the plastic wire loom for a good portion of that wire run and used some PET sleeving like this:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B074GM1PK1/ref=sspa_dk_detail_0?pd_rd_i=B074GP12FX&pd_rd_w=c9K73&pf_rd_p=48d372c1-f7e1-4b8b-9d02-4bd86f5158c5&pd_rd_wg=Q7qMO&pf_rd_r=CAMT3NXNFBX95D3ME837&pd_rd_r=80caa57c-fd58-4201-89c1-7a6cbe06a703&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUExOVdDQlY5MlNSTDlWJ mVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUExMDM4MDM4MjhJR0ZUOE5ZWDNJTyZlbmN yeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwNzQ2ODg2MkM1TzhURzUwRjdKVSZ3aWRnZ XROYW1lPXNwX2RldGFpbCZhY3Rpb249Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZ kb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU&th=1

I used various sizes and colors of that stuff when I ran all new 12 and 14 gauge speaker wires to the dash and doors - it makes pulling wires through tight spots so much easier. It also does a good job of protecting the wires.

I also chose not to wire the LED indicator since it was optional.

[commandomatt]

^^^ Good info, Thanks Steve

[TheMadMachinist]

I finally found I place to mount the adjustment knob that I can live with. Cut a hole in the rubber like cup holder in the center console then added a little double stick tape on the backside. Not a very good pic but I'm sure you get the idea. 42930

[Steve M]

Switch looks good there...inconspicuous, but still accessible.

[sadil]

Can we stack that with an Arrow PCM or is it meant for the factory tune?

Can we stack the unit onto Arrow Stage 1? Anyone tried this with results? Good to get an opinion on difference in throttle since the Arrow PCM was already supposed to fix throttle.

[13COBRA]

Can we stack the unit onto Arrow Stage 1? Anyone tried this with results? Good to get an opinion on difference in throttle since the Arrow PCM was already supposed to fix throttle.

I have both on my Gen IV... HUGE improvement with the TKO unit.

Different ballpark from the Arrow PCM.

[sadil]

Thanks for the feedback. Did you also have a laggy pedal that Arrow couldn't fix with the tune? I heard the Arrow Stage 1 on the G5 had some updates that DID fix throttle response. I just dont want to buy something that wont give me any results.

[13COBRA]

Thanks for the feedback. Did you also have a laggy pedal that Arrow couldn't fix with the tune? I heard the Arrow Stage 1 on the G5 had some updates that DID fix throttle response. I just dont want to buy something that wont give me any results.

This will get you results over and above the Arrow flash.

It more or less multiplies the throttle percentage.

So, without it on, if you press the throttle to 10%, you get 10% throttle. Once installed, if you set the Max Throttle to 25%, and then press the throttle 10%, you actually will get 12.5% throttle.

You'll notice a significant difference I assure you. Once installed you can actually play with the positioning while driving with a steady foot and see the difference for yourself.

[sadil]

This will get you results over and above the Arrow flash.

It more or less multiplies the throttle percentage.

So, without it on, if you press the throttle to 10%, you get 10% throttle. Once installed, if you set the Max Throttle to 25%, and then press the throttle 10%, you actually will get 12.5% throttle.

You'll notice a significant difference I assure you. Once installed you can actually play with the positioning while driving with a steady foot and see the difference for yourself.

I understand how it works but I just didn't want to be in a situation where I get it all installed and 0% is the setting I have to use to be manageable. Just dont want a double action going on. Seems like the G4 Arrow controller didnt solve the throttle lag and you experienced a significant benefit. Hopefully someone with G5 can also comment.

I was always sold on the max throttle unit, but did a 180 on getting the Arrow controller (i was opposed to it originally) but want to run straight pipe and need the pops haha and then you read that arrow controller really wakes up the car and they specifically state more throttle response. I was even reading on here that throttle respond improved over time with cal development at Arrow and an update to the original flash helped.

So I kinda want to get a sold story on G5.

[13COBRA]

I understand how it works but I just didn't want to be in a situation where I get it all installed and 0% is the setting I have to use to be manageable. Just dont want a double action going on. Seems like the G4 Arrow controller didnt solve the throttle lag and you experienced a significant benefit. Hopefully someone with G5 can also comment.

I was always sold on the max throttle unit, but did a 180 on getting the Arrow controller (i was opposed to it originally) but want to run straight pipe and need the pops haha and then you read that arrow controller really wakes up the car and they specifically state more throttle response. I was even reading on here that throttle respond improved over time with cal development at Arrow and an update to the original flash helped.

So I kinda want to get a sold story on G5.

Gotcha.

[TKO MOTORSPORTS TEAM]

I understand how it works but I just didn't want to be in a situation where I get it all installed and 0% is the setting I have to use to be manageable. Just dont want a double action going on. Seems like the G4 Arrow controller didnt solve the throttle lag and you experienced a significant benefit. Hopefully someone with G5 can also comment.

I was always sold on the max throttle unit, but did a 180 on getting the Arrow controller (i was opposed to it originally) but want to run straight pipe and need the pops haha and then you read that arrow controller really wakes up the car and they specifically state more throttle response. I was even reading on here that throttle respond improved over time with cal development at Arrow and an update to the original flash helped.

So I kinda want to get a sold story on G5.

Hello Sadil We have our Max throttle kit installed on a few prefix/arrow engine and tuned cars. Its works perfectly zero problems. It removes the lag completely and is easy to install. Most of our customers with Prefix/arrow engines and tune set the max throttle at about 25%-50% on the dial. The percentage really depends on the driver preference. Our pro drivers kept it at 25% on a road course and the amateur drivers turned it up to 30-35%. The straight line rolling start viper people turn it up to 50% or more. Its application and driver preference based adjustment.

[Ogme042]

I understand how it works but I just didn't want to be in a situation where I get it all installed and 0% is the setting I have to use to be manageable. Just dont want a double action going on. Seems like the G4 Arrow controller didnt solve the throttle lag and you experienced a significant benefit. Hopefully someone with G5 can also comment.

I was always sold on the max throttle unit, but did a 180 on getting the Arrow controller (i was opposed to it originally) but want to run straight pipe and need the pops haha and then you read that arrow controller really wakes up the car and they specifically state more throttle response. I was even reading on here that throttle respond improved over time with cal development at Arrow and an update to the original flash helped.

So I kinda want to get a sold story on G5.

I have both the Arrow pcm and max throttle. I had it for only one event at the end of last year, but it works good. I kept it on about 50%. Looking forward to trying different settings this year.

[HUBBELL RACING]

It's not the gearing, Snake... My car pulls HARD in first.. and all other gears. It's the tip in throttle response coming off idle (or at the bottom of any gear really). It's like driving my super duty... there's a discernible delay between throttle pedal depression and the car picking up and going... Probably a delay designed for safety, as mentioned earlier. Annoying as hell when I have to drop the clutch with 2500 rpms and I still bog a bit!
!

I have same thing in my M6 & Aventador SVJ but not in 2006 Ford GT & def not in 1967 E type roadster. Prob some bureaucrat geek said

[Redx]

Hello Sadil We have our Max throttle kit installed on a few prefix/arrow engine and tuned cars. Its works perfectly zero problems. It removes the lag completely and is easy to install. Most of our customers with Prefix/arrow engines and tune set the max throttle at about 25%-50% on the dial. The percentage really depends on the driver preference. Our pro drivers kept it at 25% on a road course and the amateur drivers turned it up to 30-35%. The straight line rolling start viper people turn it up to 50% or more. Its application and driver preference based adjustment.

I just put this on my 9lX car, 50% setting and wow! Really wakes the car up off the line and can really hammer the shifts and keep the power through the gears! Great addition for sure.

[SRT BILL]

Just installed mine and like everyone else has said its a nice improvement! Can anybody confirm that the unit is set at 60% when not using the variable switch? I disconnected the variable switch and it seems perfect for the type of driving I do.

[Baked]

I just added it to my car also and definitely worth it! Martin at TKO was great to deal with also.

[5genViper]

Hey TKO Motorsport, is the rev match combo ready yet? Pricing?

Any news on this ?

[gpbtt]

I have listed my used one in the Classified. No longer needed it...works perfect...great price!

[txA&M08]

Hey TKO Motorsport, is the rev match combo ready yet? Pricing?

Also in for updates :fpopcorn:

[ViperGeorge]

Complete Performance is now offering a throttle blip that has a harness for the throttle but you still need to tap the brake and clutch wires. Group buy in process.

[sharmut]

@ViperGeorge does the "Complete Performance" package include the pedalMAX or simply a connector to throttle?

For me, access to the brake wire was the hardest part of the auto-blip install.

[ViperGeorge]

@ViperGeorge does the "Complete Performance" package include the pedalMAX or simply a connector to throttle?

For me, access to the brake wire was the hardest part of the auto-blip install.

I think it is just the throttle blip. You could reach out to them and ask. I do agree that while the install would be easier with a throttle plug and play harness tapping the other two wires would still be a pain for me. I'm too old to be crawling around under the dash.

[TheMadMachinist]

I know this is an old thread. But I just recived my second Adjustable Throttle Kit from TKO Motorsports and installed it on my 2010 and this thing is just too much fun. Also they sell some pretty nice Tee Shirts as well.46387 Just incase any of you guys are looking for a last minute Xmas gift for that hard to buy for lady in your life and don't forget to pickup a Tee Shirt for yourself.lol

[pony23]

I keep meaning to pull the trigger on this.

[SRT BILL]

I keep meaning to pull the trigger on this.

Pony23 go for it! Installed it on mine several months ago and luv it. The car is much more responsive off idle.

[Old School]

I would be a little weary of installing anything that controls the throttle with all the problems Toyota had with "unintended acceleration".

[Steve M]

I would be a little weary of installing anything that controls the throttle with all the problems Toyota had with "unintended acceleration".

Heh...I own one of those vehicles.

I posted my thoughts on this product (and yes, I do own one) in this thread: https://driveviper.com/forums/threads/26336-Fixing-DBW-throttle-lag-response?p=413053&viewfull=1#post413053

For those too lazy to click:


Circling back to this comment: I did some testing and data logging to see what, if any, effect the TKO unit has on the actual delay between pushing the pedal and engine response.

Bottom line: it doesn't. Doesn't matter if you have it set a 0% or 100%, that lag between pushing the pedal and the engine actually doing something does not change.

What it does is simply amplify the throttle signal - it just reduces the amount of pedal travel it takes to get to 100% throttle.

But it does help with one specific thing, and that is heel-toe downshifting. I've always had a hard time rev matching with the Viper, largely because I just never seem to be able to get a solid enough blip on the gas pedal. Your throttle blip just does more with the TKO unit.

The downside that I've found is that it increases the chances of what I'd call pilot induced oscillation, especially at settings higher than 50%. I had one instance recently where I went to roll into the throttle in 2nd gear, and I ended up losing traction. I immediately let off the throttle to regain traction, which jerked me forward a little bit, and then I tried leaning back into it, only to have it happen again. This went on for a few times before I finally just aborted so I could regroup. It's just something you have to be aware of. It takes about 1-2 drives to get used to the extra sensitivity, but you can still run into situations where you might not want that extra sensitivity.

My $0.02. It does make the car more fun to drive, but you can achieve the same thing by just pressing the gas pedal harder if you want to save some cash. Maybe see if you can try before you buy.

To add to that, you have to understand how the PCM handles the throttle bodies, and why this particular product can't directly affect that rate at which they open/close.

The throttle bodies on these cars are huge...way larger than you need to feed these engines at their OEM power levels. Take a look at the Calvo and Nth Moto turbo builds, and you'll see stock throttle bodies being used in those monsters. 9L extreme builds? Stock throttle bodies.

As a reference, if you do a rough calculation of how much airflow an 8.4L (~512 cubic inch) V-10 needs, it comes out around 800 cfm (using the formula (Engine RPM x engine displacement (ci) x volumetric efficiency)/3,456; assuming an 85% volumetric efficiency and 6,400 RPMs). Depending on where you look, a 75mm throttle body can flow about 900 cfm. Each. And we have two of them. And for those wondering, the opening diameter of the 2008-2010 and 2013-2014 plastic throttle bodies are 74mm each; the 2015-2017 metal throttle bodies are 76mm each.

If you want to see why this matters, you need to log throttle body blade position, and watch what they do under WOT conditions. In the lower RPMs, they only open about 60% each, and then slowly open to the point where they are finally fully open only in the upper RPMs. To put it in other words, when you ask for WOT with the pedal, the PCM doesn't actually open the throttle bodies all the way - it only opens them a set amount depending on where you are in the RPM range. This controlled by the PCM. There is also a set delay between when you push the gas pedal and when the throttle bodies actually respond; again, controlled by the PCM.

Amplifying the pedal position signal (which is what the TKO device does) only affects how far the throttle bodies open for a given pedal position; it does not affect the rate at which they open or how fast they respond to driver input (again, that's controlled by the PCM).

The heart of the issue is the lag between when you stab the pedal and when the engine actually responds, which is pretty bad for the Gen 4/5 drive-by-wire cars. The TKO adjustable max throttle response kit does not help with that; that lag is still there even with it set to 100%. Some of that is caused by the engine needing to overcome the inertia of the relatively heavy flywheel/clutch assembly, and the rest is due to the PCM damping out the response for emissions and safety concerns.

Yes, with it installed and turned up, the car feels more responsive, but that's only because it effectively reduces the resolution of the gas pedal inputs (i.e. a little push on the gas pedal = a much larger signal, depending on where it is set).

Yeah, I'm really fun at parties.

[SRT BILL]

Heh...I own one of those vehicles.

I posted my thoughts on this product (and yes, I do own one) in this thread: https://driveviper.com/forums/threads/26336-Fixing-DBW-throttle-lag-response?p=413053&viewfull=1#post413053

For those too lazy to click:



To add to that, you have to understand how the PCM handles the throttle bodies, and why this particular product can't directly affect that rate at which they open/close.

The throttle bodies on these cars are huge...way larger than you need to feed these engines at their OEM power levels. Take a look at the Calvo and Nth Motor turbo builds, and you'll see stock throttle bodies being used in those monsters. 9L extreme builds? Stock throttle bodies.

As a reference, if you do a rough calculation of how much airflow an 8.4L (~512 cubic inch) V-10 needs, it comes out around 800 cfm (using the formula (Engine RPM x engine displacement (ci) x volumetric efficiency)/3,456; assuming an 85% volumetric efficiency and 6,400 RPMs). Depending on where you look, a 75mm throttle body can flow about 900 cfm. Each. And we have two of them. And for those wondering, the opening diameter of the 2008-2010 and 2013-2014 plastic throttle bodies are 74mm each; the 2015-2017 metal throttle bodies are 76mm each.

If you want to see why this matters, you need to log throttle body blade position, and watch what they do under WOT conditions. In the lower RPMs, they only open about 60% each, and then slowly open to the point where they are finally fully open only in the upper RPMs. To put it in other words, when you ask for WOT with the pedal, the PCM doesn't actually open the throttle bodies all the way - it only opens them a set amount depending on where you are in the RPM range. This controlled by the PCM. There is also a set delay between when you push the gas pedal and when the throttle bodies actually respond; again, controlled by the PCM.

Amplifying the pedal position signal (which is what the TKO device does) only affects how far the throttle bodies open for a given pedal position; it does not affect the rate at which they open or how fast they respond to driver input (again, that's controlled by the PCM).

The heart of the issue is the lag between when you stab the pedal and when the engine actually responds, which is pretty bad for the Gen 4/5 drive-by-wire cars. The TKO adjustable max throttle response kit does not help with that; that lag is still there even with it set to 100%. Some of that is caused by the engine needing to overcome the inertia of the relatively heavy flywheel/clutch assembly, and the rest is due to the PCM damping out the response for emissions and safety concerns.

Yes, with it installed and turned up, the car feels more responsive, but that's only because it effectively reduces the resolution of the gas pedal inputs (i.e. a little push on the gas pedal = a much larger signal, depending on where it is set).

Yeah, I'm really fun at parties.

Steve, one of my favorite quotes of 2020."I had it up a bit higher at first, and ended up leaving my neighborhood like my hair was on fire." Steve,You said it all.

[phantomapollyon]

Heh...I own one of those vehicles.

I posted my thoughts on this product (and yes, I do own one) in this thread: https://driveviper.com/forums/threads/26336-Fixing-DBW-throttle-lag-response?p=413053&viewfull=1#post413053

For those too lazy to click:



To add to that, you have to understand how the PCM handles the throttle bodies, and why this particular product can't directly affect that rate at which they open/close.

The throttle bodies on these cars are huge...way larger than you need to feed these engines at their OEM power levels. Take a look at the Calvo and Nth Motor turbo builds, and you'll see stock throttle bodies being used in those monsters. 9L extreme builds? Stock throttle bodies.

As a reference, if you do a rough calculation of how much airflow an 8.4L (~512 cubic inch) V-10 needs, it comes out around 800 cfm (using the formula (Engine RPM x engine displacement (ci) x volumetric efficiency)/3,456; assuming an 85% volumetric efficiency and 6,400 RPMs). Depending on where you look, a 75mm throttle body can flow about 900 cfm. Each. And we have two of them. And for those wondering, the opening diameter of the 2008-2010 and 2013-2014 plastic throttle bodies are 74mm each; the 2015-2017 metal throttle bodies are 76mm each.

If you want to see why this matters, you need to log throttle body blade position, and watch what they do under WOT conditions. In the lower RPMs, they only open about 60% each, and then slowly open to the point where they are finally fully open only in the upper RPMs. To put it in other words, when you ask for WOT with the pedal, the PCM doesn't actually open the throttle bodies all the way - it only opens them a set amount depending on where you are in the RPM range. This controlled by the PCM. There is also a set delay between when you push the gas pedal and when the throttle bodies actually respond; again, controlled by the PCM.

Amplifying the pedal position signal (which is what the TKO device does) only affects how far the throttle bodies open for a given pedal position; it does not affect the rate at which they open or how fast they respond to driver input (again, that's controlled by the PCM).

The heart of the issue is the lag between when you stab the pedal and when the engine actually responds, which is pretty bad for the Gen 4/5 drive-by-wire cars. The TKO adjustable max throttle response kit does not help with that; that lag is still there even with it set to 100%. Some of that is caused by the engine needing to overcome the inertia of the relatively heavy flywheel/clutch assembly, and the rest is due to the PCM damping out the response for emissions and safety concerns.

Yes, with it installed and turned up, the car feels more responsive, but that's only because it effectively reduces the resolution of the gas pedal inputs (i.e. a little push on the gas pedal = a much larger signal, depending on where it is set).

Yeah, I'm really fun at parties.

This is exactly what I'd have expected but glad to see someone confirming it, I was going to grab one of these originally until I really didn't see much of an answer on how the unit was technically functioning. (making me presume it was primary just fluctuating voltage levels like most pedal controllers) I use a very similar unit on my Fiat 500 Abarth and though you certainly perceive, a difference the actual lag most definitely is still there, it just feels a bit better because the initial post-lag response is quicker. That said, are you aware of any confirmed PCM fix to eliminate what I'd consider the completely unnecessary lag that's baked into the factory setup? I would presume with aftermarket ECU/PCM setups it's something that can be eliminated, or simply not induced to begin with, but I would hope it could also be done with some level of a reflash as well. On other DBW systems on previous vehicles of mine there have definitely been simple tweaks to throttle tables that would take care of it without issue.

[Steve M]

This is exactly what I'd have expected but glad to see someone confirming it, I was going to grab one of these originally until I really didn't see much of an answer on how the unit was technically functioning. (making me presume it was primary just fluctuating voltage levels like most pedal controllers) I use a very similar unit on my Fiat 500 Abarth and though you certainly perceive, a difference the actual lag most definitely is still there, it just feels a bit better because the initial post-lag response is quicker. That said, are you aware of any confirmed PCM fix to eliminate what I'd consider the completely unnecessary lag that's baked into the factory setup? I would presume with aftermarket ECU/PCM setups it's something that can be eliminated, or simply not induced to begin with, but I would hope it could also be done with some level of a reflash as well. On other DBW systems on previous vehicles of mine there have definitely been simple tweaks to throttle tables that would take care of it without issue.

You hit the nail on the head.

Unfortunately, it can't be fixed with HPTuners...I've tried and failed many times. You can certainly access and modify the tables that would fix it, but you can't access the underlying torque calculations (and their limits) to keep the car from going into limp mode when you mess with them.

Can't comment on the Prefix/Arrow PCM since I don't have one and have never driven one, but they would certainly have access to the underlying code to actually fix the problem. Whether or not they do, I have no idea.

Outside of that, there is nothing you can do to fix it, unless you go with something like Motec ($$$). The lag is somewhere in the 400-500 millisecond range, which is why it is so noticeable.

[phantomapollyon]

You hit the nail on the head.

Unfortunately, it can't be fixed with HPTuners...I've tried and failed many times. You can certainly access and modify the tables that would fix it, but you can't access the underlying torque calculations (and their limits) to keep the car from going into limp mode when you mess with them.

Can't comment on the Prefix/Arrow PCM since I don't have one and have never driven one, but they would certainly have access to the underlying code to actually fix the problem. Whether or not they do, I have no idea.

Outside of that, there is nothing you can do to fix it, unless you go with something like Motec ($$$). The lag is somewhere in the 400-500 millisecond range, which is why it is so noticeable.

I'm very interested to hear if anyone with the Arrow PCM can chime in and knows if this is corrected by default, or if it is at least straight forward to configure it. It seems like based on human reaction time you might want a very slight delay baked in for everything that's not true racing, but probably no more than a tenth or so of what the factory PCM has.