Cold Tire Temps WARNING!

[JonB ~ PartsRack]

Every year about this time, a cold snap (like in TX today) on a clear day BITES a Viper owner.
I get the sad calls about insurance / repairs/totals. Etc.

"I just lost it" is a common diagnosis. NEWBEES especially, be wary.....

Recent Owners Manuals even address the issue of tire-temps and I believe the G4 Vipers with Michelin PS2 and PSS carry a 38f warning, that traction is diminished. Sport Cups are even worse. And as temps drop, so do your tire pressures!

Even on newer tires, the cold makes the rubber hard, less flexible-grippy. If the pavement is cold you wont build any appreciable heat at highway speeds. (concrete is much colder than asphault) You could snap-spin the car using on-ramps, off-ramps, and higher-G turns.

Tires that are 3+ years old are even WORSE!

And no, "Scrubbing" tires in yur cul-de-sac before you hit the interstate wont work.

So be careful out there, when the sun is beckoning and the roads are cold and dry......

[BlknBlu]

Great advice, will save your car by listening to this.

Bruce

[J TNT]

Good Advise ! Having ridden Super Sport Bikes for many years , makes you acutely aware :o

[VENOM V]

It blows my mind how temperature sensitive the Pirelli P Zeros are. In the summer on a hot day, they hooked like crazy. Now I can't even gas it in 2nd without wheel hopping spin. And this is in CA, where weather is mild compared to most of the US.

[MtnBiker]

Thanks for the warning JonB. I just bought a new set of PSSs from you last week (easy to think they are good to go, nice and grippy). I am very careful in the cold (learned that in my Z06). I often remind my wife about cold tires too.

[ViperSmith]

Yeah, 36* outside today and I went for a drive. While not bad slippage, you can feel that the grip isn't the same. Just got to take it easy...

[ACRucrazy]

Yep, this happened locally this weekend.

https://scontent-a-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/p480x480/1012768_10153457315200534_732301850_n.jpg

[Late Apex]

Hey JonI can attest the semi cold snap today here in Tx. and lots of wrecks. Guess I should change from the Airline stuff to body or wrecker service. Hows Portland? And thanks for the call and info the other day. Wonder where Dave6666 went LOL

[Space Truckin]

Yep, this happened locally this weekend.

https://scontent-a-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/p480x480/1012768_10153457315200534_732301850_n.jpg

That SUX, judging from paint transfer on k rail I bet that driver side is ugly. OUCH :furious:

[rw99]

Great advice, Jon... and worth repeating every damn year.

Rich

[Voice of Reason]

50* is my limit, we just passed that point Sunday where all highs on the 10 day forecast are below that so I cleaned her up and put the cover on for winter. Last night we got our first half inch of snow that covered the grass this morning. Coincidence? Maybe. Or maybe the world is mourning with me that my baby will be sleeping for the next 5-6 months :(

[swolff]

Although I've only owned my Viper for 5 months, having owned other high HP cars (and having close calls in cold weather) have been great learning tools. I had my Gen 3 (PSS tires) out last night with ambient temps hanging in the Mid 40s. I knew it would be risky getting on it so just a nice early evening cruise to end it out for the year. With light snow this morning its time to hibernate now.

I also just had this discussion with my brother who has a C63 AMG as a DD w/ exhaust and ECU upgrade. Even though the AMG is much more tame than the viper it still makes over 500 bhp. Finally convinced him to set a spare set of wheels with dedicated snow tires would be in his best interest.

[Scott Mannny]

Every year about this time, a cold snap (like in TX today) on a clear day BITES a Viper owner.
I get the sad calls about insurance / repairs/totals. Etc.

"I just lost it" is a common diagnosis. NEWBEES especially, be wary.....

Recent Owners Manuals even address the issue of tire-temps and I believe the G4 Vipers with Michelin PS2 and PSS carry a 38f warning, that traction is diminished. Sport Cups are even worse. And as temps drop, so do your tire pressures!

Even on newer tires, the cold makes the rubber hard, less flexible-grippy. If the pavement is cold you wont build any appreciable heat at highway speeds. (concrete is much colder than asphault) You could snap-spin the car using on-ramps, off-ramps, and higher-G turns.

Tires that are 3+ years old are even WORSE!

And no, "Scrubbing" tires in yur cul-de-sac before you hit the interstate wont work.

So be careful out there, when the sun is beckoning and the roads are cold and dry......

Thanks Jon for reminding everyone!! I just passed some of your information on to our Region.

[Leslie]

Thank you for the reminder Jonb!

[Anonymous]

Here in NY we are going down to the low 30's tonight now I don't feel bad about putting the viper into hibernation.

[slitherv10]

I just bought a set of winter tire and rims for the Viper and took her out this morning in 32F weather and it griped awesome. I took on a 2010 Maxima and WON !! Now tomorrow I'm thinking maybe take her to the drag strip now that its empty and see what times I can get on Goodyear assurance winter 265's in the rear.

[Anonymous]

Really?

[St.Char]

Every year about this time, a cold snap (like in TX today) on a clear day BITES a Viper owner.
I get the sad calls about insurance / repairs/totals. Etc.

"I just lost it" is a common diagnosis. NEWBEES especially, be wary.....

Recent Owners Manuals even address the issue of tire-temps and I believe the G4 Vipers with Michelin PS2 and PSS carry a 38f warning, that traction is diminished. Sport Cups are even worse. And as temps drop, so do your tire pressures!

Even on newer tires, the cold makes the rubber hard, less flexible-grippy. If the pavement is cold you wont build any appreciable heat at highway speeds. (concrete is much colder than asphault) You could snap-spin the car using on-ramps, off-ramps, and higher-G turns.

Tires that are 3+ years old are even WORSE!

And no, "Scrubbing" tires in yur cul-de-sac before you hit the interstate wont work.

So be careful out there, when the sun is beckoning and the roads are cold and dry......

Great Post Jon!

[VYPR BYT]

Great thread topic to have on here.

[ttamez]

for those who have had them for a while, how do invos do in the cold? i got a new set that have only been on for a month. down in TX where it'll still be sunny but cold out, what's considered "too cold" that you wouldn't even go out for a ride? below 40?

[JonB ~ PartsRack]

Team SRT did winter testing on the same Rim that PartsRack partnered with OZ to develop: OZ 18" rims!

I think last yeasr Ohio winter party gathering (maybe 2 years ago?) SRT showed up on these wheels with snow tires on a Viper coupe! 4 fronts on the car........

We have em for $1649/set + tires. I recommend Bridgestone Blizzaks....

[JonB ~ PartsRack]

for those who have had them for a while, how do invos do in the cold? i got a new set that have only been on for a month. down in TX where it'll still be sunny but cold out, what's considered "too cold" that you wouldn't even go out for a ride? below 40?

"Runcraps" and "Shittos" terrible

[Newport Viper]

I got a sunburn on the golf course today. 92 in inland CA. Car was hooking nicely.

[Nickel]

I probably have everyone beat on old tires. Just pulled off the original set of tires on my Gen 1. They were stamped 1991. Surprised I never crashed!

[eucharistos]

....Tires that are 3+ years old are even WORSE!......

is age (less than 7 yrs is what i heard before) bad even if tires never really heat cycled, are garaged, on car, not in the sun?

[ViperGTS]

I feel a difference after 1 year ...the tires age (fast) and the massive forces act on only a few square-inches!
Cant imagine how it is driving on +10 years old hockey pucks :drive:but people spend a ton of money on useless audio, rims, wings...well.

[JonB ~ PartsRack]

is age (less than 7 yrs is what i heard before) bad even if tires never really heat cycled, are garaged, on car, not in the sun?

YES! Every time we take a tire to hiway speeeds for a few minutes it 'heat cycles' once. Want proof? Feel your tire tread when you stop after a hiway drive.

AIR/OZONE oxidizes-hardens rubber. Inside the tire and out. A brand new tire, never mounted, and stored in correct temp/humidity still hardens at a rate of about 2-3% per year, per tire-rubber council. This is the least amount a tire deteriorates when the original "mold rind" or release-agent-skin is still intact. Never Mounted/inflated! 10 years hardens 25% stored from new!

Once you mount-balance-inflate/stretch the rubber molecules, and then drive (heat cycle) a tire, it begins to harden much faster. Why? Oxygen gets into the rubber easier.

And the SOFTER a tire is the FASTER it hardens/oxidizes! So for optimum traction, race slicks last a season. R-compound tires 2 years; OE soft tires (100-180 rated hardness) about 3 years. 200-300 rated about 4 years. And so forth. Park in sun and heat, and hardening-checking is much worse.

Note: Gen 1 XGT-Z Michelins were the SOFTEST OE tire ever put on a vehicle til Sport Cups came OE on G4 ACRs !!! Those 1991 OE Tires were very tractionless by 2013!!!!

Im not saying that it wont hold air, wont get you down the road, without exploding under you! Im just relating how traction diminshes as a tire ages, as a function of miles, heat-cycles, athosphere, average temps, and even whether you inflated it with atmospheric air...or with NITROGEN!

Nitrogen is not an Oxident! Tires deteriorate from the inside-out, too. Ni will keep a tire in better condition (and in shape!) for a longer time.
Ever notice the terrible pungent chemical-smell of "used" tire-air as you deflate a tire in your garage or shop? Oxidizing Rubber/vulcanizing compounds etc, YUCK! [My college roomie also rotated his TIRE AIR 2x/year!!]

A $300 hand-held durometer tester is used to check the hardness of items like rubber, and can "prove" how tires harden.

Does this matter on dry roads in 'your fathers oldsmobile? Not much. But when you have Viper chassis that can handle 1.5Gs, and power from 400-650HP+, the power and cornering forces REQUIRE great traction to keep you on the road. Its not safe to have diminshed traction, [unless of course you enjoy drifting............]

When I have customers store OEM "Collectible-Rare-OE " tires, I tell them to spray the treadrubber and sidewalls in silicone, and store them in black plastic 55-gal drum liners, from which you have evacuated all air with a shop-vac! Then knott/zip-tie the neck of the bags. In effect "vacuum seal" em! Obessive, eh? It works.

[Fatboy 18]

Don't forget about the Deer Too! They seem to jump out in front of Vipers at this time of year!

[Loud]

Now Jon, if you can get me blizzaks for the viper like you did for the merc, I wouldn't have to bother about snow :P

A

[eucharistos]

YES! ....... It works.

you just can't get a better response to a question than this!

thanks jonb

[Leslie]

I am tellin' ya, Jonb is the 'Viper whisperer' for sure, walking book of great knowledge!

That's some great tire info:dude3:

[Nickel]

YES! Every time we take a tire to hiway speeeds for a few minutes it 'heat cycles' once. Want proof? Feel your tire tread when you stop after a hiway drive.

AIR/OZONE oxidizes-hardens rubber. Inside the tire and out. A brand new tire, never mounted, and stored in correct temp/humidity still hardens at a rate of about 2-3% per year, per tire-rubber council. This is the least amount a tire deteriorates when the original "mold rind" or release-agent-skin is still intact. Never Mounted/inflated! 10 years hardens 25% stored from new!

Once you mount-balance-inflate/stretch the rubber molecules, and then drive (heat cycle) a tire, it begins to harden much faster. Why? Oxygen gets into the rubber easier.

And the SOFTER a tire is the FASTER it hardens/oxidizes! So for optimum traction, race slicks last a season. R-compound tires 2 years; OE soft tires (100-180 rated hardness) about 3 years. 200-300 rated about 4 years. And so forth. Park in sun and heat, and hardening-checking is much worse.

Note: Gen 1 XGT-Z Michelins were the SOFTEST OE tire ever put on a vehicle til Sport Cups came OE on G4 ACRs !!! Those 1991 OE Tires were very tractionless by 2013!!!!

Im not saying that it wont hold air, wont get you down the road, without exploding under you! Im just relating how traction diminshes as a tire ages, as a function of miles, heat-cycles, athosphere, average temps, and even whether you inflated it with atmospheric air...or with NITROGEN!

Nitrogen is not an Oxident! Tires deteriorate from the inside-out, too. Ni will keep a tire in better condition (and in shape!) for a longer time.
Ever notice the terrible pungent chemical-smell of "used" tire-air as you deflate a tire in your garage or shop? Oxidizing Rubber/vulcanizing compounds etc, YUCK! [My college roomie also rotated his TIRE AIR 2x/year!!]

A $300 hand-held durometer tester is used to check the hardness of items like rubber, and can "prove" how tires harden.

Does this matter on dry roads in 'your fathers oldsmobile? Not much. But when you have Viper chassis that can handle 1.5Gs, and power from 400-650HP+, the power and cornering forces REQUIRE great traction to keep you on the road. Its not safe to have diminshed traction, [unless of course you enjoy drifting............]

When I have customers store OEM "Collectible-Rare-OE " tires, I tell them to spray the treadrubber and sidewalls in silicone, and store them in black plastic 55-gal drum liners, from which you have evacuated all air with a shop-vac! Then knott/zip-tie the neck of the bags. In effect "vacuum seal" em! Obessive, eh? It works.

Thanks for the good info JonB! My car only has 8500 miles on it. So assume the the 1991 tires had those low miles too. I can remember coming to a hard stop at an intersection not to long ago. Tire smoke was everywhere. Looked like the car was on fire. Very embarrassing to say the least. I should of taken those all old tires off sooner. Simply didnt know they were that old.

[City]

You'll have my new tire order in April Mr. B.

Speaking of which, what's the diff between Mich PS2 and Mich Super Sport?

[Nickel]

You'll have my new tire order in April Mr. B.

Speaking of which, what's the diff between Mich PS2 and Mich Super Sport?

After I took off the 22 year old tires, I replaced them with new wheels and the Mich Super Sports. The Super Sports are very different than my old tires. Grip much better and a lot smoother on the road. Doesn't jar the car as much when traveling over bumps in the road too.

[Fatboy 18]

Reality Check......Lets be careful out there!

http://farm1.staticflickr.com/106/300547551_3b9aa43409_o.jpg

[ViperGTS]

After I took off the 22 year old tires, I replaced them with new wheels and the Mich Super Sports. The Super Sports are very different than my old tires. Grip much better and a lot smoother on the road. Doesn't jar the car as much when traveling over bumps in the road too.

Nickel: are you serious? 22 years old tires on a Viper. Shame on you. Glad you (and the car) are still around. You must drive like a granny :drive:

[Fatboy 18]

Don't think they have rain in Texas :D

[ViperGTS]

what has tire age with rain to do, except that you have lower temps and hydropla....22 years is not good (to put it friendly).

[viperr]

I wanted to ad a bit more interesting info to Jon's warning about running Vipers in cold weather.
I went to a "coffee and cars" at Griot's Garage in Tacoma this morning. It was 21 degrees when I left at 7:15 and it was very dry, but I still was careful and went at a nice safe speed. Out of curiosity I decided to check the tire temps when I got to Tacoma after an hour of driving. I used my laser pyrometer when I parked the car and the tires were up to a whopping 52 degrees. Obviously that is not an optimum temp and Jon's warnings are really underscored by those numbers. By the way I was running a set of PS-2s made in 2009 with 25,000 miles on them and they have quite a bit of tread left. I don't run these on track as I have a set of mounted Toyo R-888s.
I will probably replace the Michelins next year due to age, even though they have a decent amount of tread.

[Policy Limits]

Was out in temps in the 30's rowing gears 1-5 today and was pleasantly surprised at the performance actually.

[Anonymous]

These engines love that weather

[Hiss Highness]

remember driving the company truck years ago in minus 51 c(minus 60 f), left the truck running even while fueling up, tires would keep the flat spot from sitting, not bad today only minus 26c, only 5 more months of winter left

[Sybil TF]

[QUOTE=Late Apex;5622 Wonder where Dave6666 went LOL[/QUOTE]
Oh brother.

[JonB ~ PartsRack]

""""You'll have my new tire order in April Mr. B.
Speaking of which, what's the diff between Mich PS2 and Mich Super Sport?
CITY""""""

ThanksScott! PartsRack sponsored a PS2 vs PSS test at the TireRack facility, inviting Viper owners from IL-IN-KY. We sent spare wheels so owners could try them. We also sponsored 2 One-Lap cars in 2012 and 2013, and one so for in 2014 (Steve Loudin)

Here are the test results: http://www.viperpartsrack.com/Pilot_Super_Sport_PS2_Track_Test

Note: in 2012 the drivers split....in 2103 they BOTH chose Super Sports!

[pythonpete]

Jon B speaks the truth, I was one of those calling him regarding insurance advice about 5 years ago with my first viper. I wasn't driving fast at all but cold and ps2's don't mix.

[Getnlwr]

Funny enough that you mention this. few days ago pull down the hill leaving my house, and barely pressed the throttle while taking off from the light. 3 seconds later I am sliding down the hill sideways. 5 seconds I am staring "up" the hill I was just driving down. Tires were new, but COLD.

[ViperGTS]

""""You'll have my new tire order in April Mr. B.
Speaking of which, what's the diff between Mich PS2 and Mich Super Sport?
CITY""""""

ThanksScott! PartsRack sponsored a PS2 vs PSS test at the TireRack facility, inviting Viper owners from IL-IN-KY. We sent spare wheels so owners could try them. We also sponsored 2 One-Lap cars in 2012 and 2013, and one so for in 2014 (Steve Loudin)

Here are the test results: http://www.viperpartsrack.com/Pilot_Super_Sport_PS2_Track_Test

Note: in 2012 the drivers split....in 2103 they BOTH chose Super Sports!

That is exactly my feeling: the PS2 were better than the PSS. Gripwise.

[City]

It was 21 degrees when I left at 7:15 and it was very dry, but I still was careful and went at a nice safe speed. Out of curiosity I decided to check the tire temps when I got to Tacoma after an hour of driving. I used my laser pyrometer when I parked the car and the tires were up to a whopping 52 degrees.

Somehow that doesn't seem right to me. What temp do you think your tires were at when you left in the morning? Shouldn't the scale of temps in cold weather keep tire pressure lower than on hot days?

2 weekends ago, my Jeep SRT tire pressure warning light lit after we left the car in a parking lot for an hour at 30 degrees. It was the first time the car was exposed to cold air (bought in July). The low temp had dropped the pressure from 29 lbs (in the garage) to 24-25 lbs. outdoors.

[JonB ~ PartsRack]

One Word Fix: NITROGEN