Do you track your genV

[pMak26]

Genuinely interested to know how many genV owners take their car to the track. 20%? 50%? More? Finally got the TA2.0 out to a track day and even on crap 'track day' tires had a great time. These cars are so rewarding to drive at the limit. There is more enjoyment driving this than many other faster cars out there.


https://youtu.be/0BOTtp-uz8w

I have a few more clips from that day on my channel and will be posting more as I do more days this summer.

Shoutout thanks for the setup help and advice from Arizona and TKO. There is much more to come from this car :D

[ViperGeorge]

They are great fun on the track. However, I doubt you were close to the limit of the car. These cars have such tremendous capability that I doubt all but a professional driver could ring out the last bit of performance by driving them at the limit. This car is a much better car than I am a driver for sure. I have tracked Vipers since 1999 and at no time have I thought I was near the limit of the car, near my limit? Sure happens a lot.

[13COBRA]

Genuinely interested to know how many genV owners take their car to the track. 20%? 50%? More? Finally got the TA2.0 out to a track day and even on crap 'track day' tires had a great time. These cars are so rewarding to drive at the limit. There is more enjoyment driving this than many other faster cars out there.


https://youtu.be/0BOTtp-uz8w

I have a few more clips from that day on my channel and will be posting more as I do more days this summer.

Shoutout thanks for the setup help and advice from Arizona and TKO. There is much more to come from this car :D


Awesome!

I agree with George. Best thing you can do is find a REALLY good driver, to take you for a lap around the track in your car or his...it'll open your eyes.

[RedTanRT/10]

Nice video, track looks to be very fast!!!

To your question about tracking G5's, I'd guess probably closer to 5%. Probably was closer to 10% in the first few years, then as prices began to rise so many G5 owners are more focused on appreciation then having fun with their Vipers!! Too bad, their great track cars!! Have fun and be safe, don't worry about resale!!!! Mike

[13COBRA]

Nice video, track looks to be very fast!!!

To your question about tracking G5's, I'd guess probably closer to 5%. Probably was closer to 10% in the first few years, then as prices began to rise so many G5 owners are more focused on appreciation then having fun with their Vipers!! Too bad, their great track cars!! Have fun and be safe, don't worry about resale!!!! Mike

Definitely pay more attention to the smiles than the ROI.

[pMak26]

Awesome!
I agree with George. Best thing you can do is find a REALLY good driver, to take you for a lap around the track in your car or his...it'll open your eyes.

With all due respect, I'm usually one of those drivers someone is putting in their car to open their eyes lol. I'm not Randy Pobst, but I'm not far off him either :). Yes in the attached video I was overslowing 1 a LOT and lifting onto the straight when the car could have gone flat. It was also faster to run 4th out bouncing the limiter until the brake zone. This was not a day to get 10/10th from the car. Plus... I own this one HAH.

Even at 7-8/10ths this car is so much more fun to drive than so many other road cars I've had the privilege to track; Ferraris, Pcars, Mclarens, etc. It's a shame more genV owners don't take them out if the number really is only 5%.

FWIW, I do 1:28s on the same track in my 280whp 3100# m3. The Viper only managed a 1:30.6, so it gives an idea of just how much grip was lacking from these tires. I can't wait until my track wheels show up and I can go again on slicks :)

Well driven S2000s were doing 1:30-31s on slicks.

[PkB2014]

Nice video, track looks to be very fast!!!

To your question about tracking G5's, I'd guess probably closer to 5%. Probably was closer to 10% in the first few years, then as prices began to rise so many G5 owners are more focused on appreciation then having fun with their Vipers!! Too bad, their great track cars!! Have fun and be safe, don't worry about resale!!!! Mike

yeah, i'm wary of tracking too much now that the values are through the roof and replacement parts are getting more scarce. I still autocross regularly, but it would suck to have an accident and not be able to replace it. I want to do more track stuff, but i'll probably use a cheaper more available car for any big track events. aka. one of the millions of available corvettes in the world.

[13COBRA]

With all due respect, I'm usually one of those drivers someone is putting in their car to open their eyes lol. I'm not Randy Pobst, but I'm not far off him either :). Yes in the attached video I was overslowing 1 a LOT and lifting onto the straight when the car could have gone flat. It was also faster to run 4th out bouncing the limiter until the brake zone. This was not a day to get 10/10th from the car. Plus... I own this one HAH.

Even at 7-8/10ths this car is so much more fun to drive than so many other road cars I've had the privilege to track; Ferraris, Pcars, Mclarens, etc. It's a shame more genV owners don't take them out if the number really is only 5%.

FWIW, I do 1:28s on the same track in my 280whp 3100# m3. The Viper only managed a 1:30.6, so it gives an idea of just how much grip was lacking from these tires. I can't wait until my track wheels show up and I can go again on slicks :)

Well drive S2000s were doing 1:30-31s on slicks.

I wasn't meaning anything rude by any means... just watching the video you could tell you weren't near the limit of the car, and then in your writing you mentioned how rewarding the cars were to drive at the limit.

No big deal!

[pMak26]

I wasn't meaning anything rude by any means... just watching the video you could tell you weren't near the limit of the car, and then in your writing you mentioned how rewarding the cars were to drive at the limit.

No big deal!

Totally understand! And I agree, first day with this car, on hard as rock tires, definitely taking it easy!

[RedTanRT/10]

pMak fresh slicks or Hoosiers will make a big difference!! That track looks like it has some good run-off area. With all the torque the rear always comes out before the front, if you get loose on the high speed sweeper sections think in advance if you want to catch it or go 2 feet in?? Have fun and keep us posted.

[RedTanRT/10]

yeah, i'm wary of tracking too much now that the values are through the roof and replacement parts are getting more scarce. I still autocross regularly, but it would suck to have an accident and not be able to replace it. I want to do more track stuff, but i'll probably use a cheaper more available car for any big track events. aka. one of the millions of available corvettes in the world.

Hey man if get it!! Older mustangs and BMW's make great track cars and easy to repair with plenty of used parts. Plus with lower HP they'll make you a better viper driver since you won't have the power to pass most everybody!!

[pMak26]

pMak fresh slicks or Hoosiers will make a big difference!! That track looks like it has some good run-off area. With all the torque the rear always comes out before the front, if you get loose on the high speed sweeper sections think in advance if you want to catch it or go 2 feet in?? Have fun and keep us posted.

I was really hoping my track wheels that I ordered 4+ months ago would be here by now :'(. I'll be running R7s when they show up, but I went with an 18" F/R setup so I can't just put the hoosiers on the stock 18"/19" wheels.

By the time I'm done with this car my goal is to be right around 1 or 2 seconds slower than a TA2 car. Skeen does 1:21-22*s here in a TA2. Majority of that time will come from the tires. Some will come from the curbs, some aero, and some suspension.

*before they screwed up the pavement in the carousel/octopus section.

[RedTanRT/10]

Yeah 18/18 is the way to go, more wheel and tire options. After you've run the r7's for awhile, try the A-7's. After that try the Michelin slicks. A few years ago they started making a rear that has very similar dimensions (height in particular) to the 345 35 18's so you don't have to change the rear rake.

[pMak26]

Correction, I have A7s ready to go haha

Do you recall the Michelin tire sizing F&R?

Here was a list I had compiled last year of tires to consider for fun days:
Tyres
Front Toyo Proxes RR 315/30zr18
Rear Toyo Proxes RR 345/35zr18
Front Hoosier A7 295/30zr18
Rear Hoosier A7 345/35zr18
Front Pirelli Pzero DH 305/645/18
Rear Pirelli Pzero DH 325/705/18
Rear Yokohama A005 N2844 300/650r18
Front Yokohama A005 N2888 330/710r18

I ran DHs on the M3 and loved them, but Pirelli changes too much. There are way too many compounds for me to keep up with, and recent changes to the compounds. They were hard to mount and bead too.

On the viper now are just street tires that have no business being on track. Michelin Pilot Sports - 315 front and 345 rear.

[13COBRA]

I run 33/65 and 31/71 Michelins. My next set I'm going to run 33/71s in the rear.

[Viper.954]

I'm not qualified to drive a Viper on a road course.

[Rare Snake]

51032
Heck yes, you have to get out once in a while!
51031

[RedTanRT/10]

I run 33/65 and 31/71 Michelins. My next set I'm going to run 33/71s in the rear.


Nick, a 33/65 front is really big are you sure about that?

pMak The Michelins I use are 30/65 R18 fronts (which is the same size as a 315 Hoosier) and the 33/68-R18's (same height as the 345 35 18 rear Hoosiers)

[13COBRA]

Nick, a 33/65 front is really big are you sure about that?

pMak The Michelins I use are 30/65 R18 fronts (which is the same size as a 315 Hoosier) and the 33/68-R18's (same height as the 345 35 18 rear Hoosiers)

Hey, remember that time I didn't know how to use a keyboard?

30/65 up front.

[Pappy]

A 335/18 A7 on 12" wheel works up front.

51033

[pMak26]

Nick, a 33/65 front is really big are you sure about that?

pMak The Michelins I use are 30/65 R18 fronts (which is the same size as a 315 Hoosier) and the 33/68-R18's (same height as the 345 35 18 rear Hoosiers)

Woah really? I didn't think the 315 Hoosier would fit! Hmm... Might have to get those instead. I ordered a set f14s in 18"x11" front and 18"x13" rears.

I'm going to add the Michelins to my list.

[pMak26]

A 335/18 A7 on 12" wheel works up front.

51033

335! Wow! How'd you get that to fit??

[Pappy]

No changes were required to fit the 335. I have a set of Finspeed wheels with "good" backspacing - got the wheels from AZ and he ran them w/335s on his Gen V before me. Running normal track height and have experienced very little rubbing on the inner fender tubs. Early on I did have a couple of minor traction control issues with the front and rear tires not having the appropriate "Viper" stagger, but the computer figured it out and the issue went away.

[Hawk]

I’ve been running the Hoosier R7 315/30/18fronts and 345/30/19 Rears for track days on my SW2 wheels

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[ViperNC]

I'm just out there for fun and run Sport Cup 2's. If I ever get more serious then I'd upgrade to race tires. Tracking is the safest way to explore your limits with the car and maybe approach the cars limits a little closer.
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[RedTanRT/10]

Woah really? I didn't think the 315 Hoosier would fit! Hmm... Might have to get those instead. I ordered a set f14s in 18"x11" front and 18"x13" rears.

I'm going to add the Michelins to my list.

Yeah most folks run 315's up front. They'll fit fine on your 11" wheels. To go with 335's like Pappy you'd need 12" fronts.

Running with the 315-345 F-R 18" combo, the tire height is the same as your stock 18/19 wheel-tire configuration so if you have corner weighted your Viper you can swap back and forth and not have to mess with corner weighting or adjusting the front to back rake.

[RedTanRT/10]

ViperNC, nice picture!!!

Here's my only G5 track pic, Peter the owner is very fast!!!!


51036

[13COBRA]

ViperNC, nice picture!!!

Here's my only G5 track pic, Peter the owner is very fast!!!!


51036

Is the VCC guy that converted his to a gen V body, out by you?

[RedTanRT/10]

Nick, if he’s here I don’t know. In Phoenix is Rich Marizale who has a G5 GTSR body that might be on a CC chassis? Not sure. I think Cable knows whoever did the set up your asking about

[13COBRA]

Nick, if he’s here I don’t know. In Phoenix is Rich Marizale who has a G5 GTSR body that might be on a CC chassis? Not sure. I think Cable knows whoever did the set up your asking about

According to the registry, it's owned by Ritch Marziale in Arizona.

Very sweet looking car.

[ViperNC]

ViperNC, nice picture!!! Here's my only G5 track pic, Peter the owner is very fast!!!!

Sweet photo at Willow! Yeah, that is the only really good photo I have right now from a professional photographer and worth posting. Maybe some more this year.

[MoparJohn]

51032
Heck yes, you have to get out once in a while!
51031

Rare Snake. I like your style.
51037

[jwalk]

51038

[ViperGeorge]

51039
51040
51041
51042

[13COBRA]

51039
51040
51041
51042

Are you running 1 Lap this year?

[ViperGeorge]

Are you running 1 Lap this year?

Yes, my final year I think. This will be 23 consecutive One Laps. Last year we took an Audi S5. Nice over the road but terrible on track. This year it is back to the Viper.

[Rare Snake]

Rare Snake. I like your style.
51037

Wow!!! That is awesome.

[13COBRA]

Yes, my final year I think. This will be 23 consecutive One Laps. Last year we took an Audi S5. Nice over the road but terrible on track. This year it is back to the Viper.

Excellent. It's always enjoyable to watch you guys.

[Racingswh]

Such beautiful cars!! Glad to see everyone having fun with theirs!!

[Arizona Vipers]

I run 33/65 and 31/71 Michelins. My next set I'm going to run 33/71s in the rear.

Do you think they will fit????? Man I'd love to run the 33's, they should be well over 370mm on a 13" wheel lol. The 310 is 353mm.

[Arizona Vipers]

Woah really? I didn't think the 315 Hoosier would fit! Hmm... Might have to get those instead. I ordered a set f14s in 18"x11" front and 18"x13" rears.

I'm going to add the Michelins to my list.

335's will work on the 11" wheel too, I ran them for years. If you are really fast and your car is low you will burn holes through the fender liners, no big deal.
I run a Yoko 320 up front now which is really a 343mm.

[13COBRA]

Do you think they will fit????? Man I'd love to run the 33's, they should be well over 370mm on a 13" wheel lol. The 310 is 353mm.

Yes they'll fit. I measured 4 times to make sure :)

[PkB2014]

IDK how you guys running 335s up front. They may fit, but my ABS freaked out with 315 A7s in my first event. Went back to 295s and been fine since.

[Lawineer]

I've done it once, for about 7 laps.
I'm well aware I'm not a 700hp driver (let alone 700hp + big aero for grip), so I didn't push it. Also, I can afford to wreck the BRZ. It would be a very bad day, but I'd buy another race car of similar cost within a few months. Plus, if the BRZ gets dings or scratches from going off, I doubt I'd notice, let alone care. I can't say the same about the Viper.


I will drive the BRZ on edge, lap after lap, and flog it mercilessly like it's a rented mule. I develop skill much faster and have more fun. I dont enjoy the Viper as much because I can't drive it to my 100%.

Plus I bet the Viper is around $1000/hr to run between powertrain wear and tear, fluids, fuel, brakes and tires. BRZ is like $125. Maybe.

With that said, the power and endless grip on the Viper was intoxicating.

[13COBRA]

I've done it once, for about 7 laps.
I'm well aware I'm not a 700hp driver (let alone 700hp + big aero for grip), so I didn't push it. Also, I can afford to wreck the BRZ. It would be a very bad day, but I'd buy another race car of similar cost within a few months. Plus, if the BRZ gets dings or scratches from going off, I doubt I'd notice, let alone care. I can't say the same about the Viper.


I will drive the BRZ on edge, lap after lap, and flog it mercilessly like it's a rented mule. I develop skill much faster and have more fun. I dont enjoy the Viper as much because I can't drive it to my 100%.

Plus I bet the Viper is around $1000/hr to run between powertrain wear and tear, fluids, fuel, brakes and tires. BRZ is like $125. Maybe.

With that said, the power and endless grip on the Viper was intoxicating.

Don't tell my wife that...


In reality, it's not that bad. I've never actually tracked it, but I don't think it's near $1,000/hr.

[PkB2014]

I've done it once, for about 7 laps.
I'm well aware I'm not a 700hp driver (let alone 700hp + big aero for grip), so I didn't push it. Also, I can afford to wreck the BRZ. It would be a very bad day, but I'd buy another race car of similar cost within a few months. Plus, if the BRZ gets dings or scratches from going off, I doubt I'd notice, let alone care. I can't say the same about the Viper.


I will drive the BRZ on edge, lap after lap, and flog it mercilessly like it's a rented mule. I develop skill much faster and have more fun. I dont enjoy the Viper as much because I can't drive it to my 100%.

Plus I bet the Viper is around $1000/hr to run between powertrain wear and tear, fluids, fuel, brakes and tires. BRZ is like $125. Maybe.

With that said, the power and endless grip on the Viper was intoxicating.


Don't tell my wife that...


In reality, it's not that bad. I've never actually tracked it, but I don't think it's near $1,000/hr.

Doh! $1000/hr! maybe so, especially adding in track day insurance. I tell myself it's only $100 per event when I'm auto-crossing. I try not to count tires, alignments, fuel, towing costs, etc. brakes are still original and seem ok, but i think this is the last year. Any HPDE or full track stuff i can run my Focus RS or a new Miata or the BRZ sound like good options as well. Trying to get the wife out in the Tesla could cut some costs, too.

[Lawineer]

Don't tell my wife that...


In reality, it's not that bad. I've never actually tracked it, but I don't think it's near $1,000/hr.

My C7 Grand Sport (not even a Z06) was over $500/hr.
Tires alone were close to that. The $2000 tires lasted about 5 hours (15 x 20 min sessions). That includes shipping, tax, mount, disposal, etc. - $400/hr. Maybe they were a little less than $2k, but even still, that alone is $375/hr. I ran NT01. Slicks are even worse. They won't come close to lasting 15 sessions.

The $500 front brake pads lasted about as long. ($100/hr)
$300 rear pads lasted twice as long ($30/hr)
Front rotors ($1000) lasted about 10 hours ($100/hr)

That's $600/hr. right there.

That doesn't even get into (hopefully) long term stuff like shocks, engine, trans, clutch, diff, wheel bearings, bushings, etc. since I was under warranty. It doesn't include oil changes, brake fluid, trans fluid, diff fluid, or even fuel. It definitely doesn't include insurance and track fees (I didn't get insurance and have a membership).

I'm certain the Viper will cost more because it a) has bigger/more expensive tires, b)will go through brakes much faster from power, downforce, grip and just being much smaller pads c) parts are much more expensive and d) faster cars cost more to run.



I'm not sure your experience/skill level, but it gets higher as you get faster.

[theacr_viper]

I bought it to track it :D


51051

51052

[SRT_BluByU]

Yes, my final year I think. This will be 23 consecutive One Laps. Last year we took an Audi S5. Nice over the road but terrible on track. This year it is back to the Viper.

why the last? has the event changed?

[pMak26]

My C7 Grand Sport (not even a Z06) was over $500/hr.
Tires alone were close to that. The $2000 tires lasted about 5 hours (15 x 20 min sessions). That includes shipping, tax, mount, disposal, etc. - $400/hr. Maybe they were a little less than $2k, but even still, that alone is $375/hr. I ran NT01. Slicks are even worse. They won't come close to lasting 15 sessions.
...

That's a dangerous game you are playing lol

I never actually add up all the costs from track time. Cost for items to make the car perform, yes. I have full spreadsheets. But I try not to actually add up what I've spent on consumables. I'm not wealthy enough to not care about those costs, but if I can leave myself blind to the amount of years earlier I could retire from NOT spending that moneys I'd not feel great. Ignorance is bliss!

[02192viper]

I agree the numbers are under 10% and probably under 5%. And I shudder to think how much it is actually costing per hour to run on the track. Just track insurance for 1 day is over $800 now let alone front tires lasting less than 3 days. Occasionally there is a group that goes down to Thunderhill (was supposed to be about 8-11 vipers last October and wouldn’t you know it the first storm of the year shot that to hell). I’ve run Laguna about 8 times now and the most I’ve seen on any day is 3 I believe. Half the time I’m the only viper there. Had a guy come over last time at Laguna (he apparently also has a 16 ACRE) and thought I was crazy for tracking it and then asked how it was on the track lol. My only wish is that I had started going to the track years ago! I’m having a blast and just hoping I can keep bringing it home looking as amazing as it did before each and every track day.

[02192viper]

51057

[Lawineer]

That's a dangerous game you are playing lol

I never actually add up all the costs from track time. Cost for items to make the car perform, yes. I have full spreadsheets. But I try not to actually add up what I've spent on consumables. I'm not wealthy enough to not care about those costs, but if I can leave myself blind to the amount of years earlier I could retire from NOT spending that moneys I'd not feel great. Ignorance is bliss!
I started noticing it and did the math. That's why I have my BRZ.
I haven't driven it as much as I would like, but I bet I've saved more in operational cost on that car that it cost me by now. Plus, my learning curve sky rocketed, and that was compared to the C7.



I agree the numbers are under 10% and probably under 5%. And I shudder to think how much it is actually costing per hour to run on the track. Just track insurance for 1 day is over $800 now let alone front tires lasting less than 3 days. Occasionally there is a group that goes down to Thunderhill (was supposed to be about 8-11 vipers last October and wouldn’t you know it the first storm of the year shot that to hell). I’ve run Laguna about 8 times now and the most I’ve seen on any day is 3 I believe. Half the time I’m the only viper there. Had a guy come over last time at Laguna (he apparently also has a 16 ACRE) and thought I was crazy for tracking it and then asked how it was on the track lol. My only wish is that I had started going to the track years ago! I’m having a blast and just hoping I can keep bringing it home looking as amazing as it did before each and every track day.

3-400 difference Gen V's on the track is probably about right. 10% would be a pretty high number for a "true" production car; I can't think of another model that would even even be 5% unless you only count the track variants (ie: GT3RS vs 911), but that would be like only counting the ACRs or something.

If you guys want to come to Dallas, I am a member at Eagles Canyon Raceway. I think it's only a few grand to rent the entire track during the week. I'm thinking $7500? It might be even less. It's been freshly repaved and it's pretty awesome. Most importantly, it's one of the safest tracks I've ever seen. While "anything can happen" there is only one wall (main pit wall) and it's not a sketchy corner- sharp turn in and wide exit (again, anything can happen). We can also get "real" coaches- not just HPDE instructors for fairly cheap. For those of you that have only done HPDE with instructors that only HPDE instructors, the difference is huge.

There's also a 700 acre gun club across the street that has everything from sporting clays to pistols to 800 (maybe 1000 now) yard rifle range.


edit: video of track
https://youtu.be/XcKILy2Ics4?t=164
It's fun in the viper. There are definitely some good turns for aero (Turn 6 and 10 stick out in my head). I think I was about 95mph on street tires going into 6 and similar in 10, no wing or splitter (just diffuser). Cant imagine what it would be in an ACR on slicks.

[RedTanRT/10]

02192 Viper, hoper to see you at Laguna. I try to find the 105db weekends. There's a good number of NorCal Vipers that track and we get a bunch from SoCal to come up from time to time.

Here's a pic from June '20, 5-6 from SoCal in this picture and there was another 5-6 from NorCal parked farther out. Take care and hope to see you this June! Mike




51062

[02192viper]

Mike, I guess we have just been missing each other out at Laguna. I have only run the 105db days out there and they don’t have that many of them. Looking forward to seeing the SoCal crew out there someday!

[StrokerAce]

I never have but want to. Anyone in FL want to give me some instruction? I'm about 1.5 hours from Sebring. :)

Hopefully have some new tires on in the coming weeks along with the fluids replaced.

[Lawineer]

I never have but want to. Anyone in FL want to give me some instruction? I'm about 1.5 hours from Sebring. :)

Hopefully have some new tires on in the coming weeks along with the fluids replaced.

Viper is a horrible car to learn to track on, lol

[StrokerAce]

Viper is a horrible car to learn to track on, lol

It's either that or the other cars in my SIG. :smilielol:

[Lawineer]

It's either that or the other cars in my SIG. :smilielol:

Ram it?

[Racingswh]

I never have but want to. Anyone in FL want to give me some instruction? I'm about 1.5 hours from Sebring. :)

Hopefully have some new tires on in the coming weeks along with the fluids replaced.

I suspect Brian Rosati would help you. He knows Sebring well. A couple class track records there I believe in cars with decent power. I would see if I can make an introduction if you're interested?

[CC51]

Hi there's a Willow Springs track day through Spring Fling Speed Festival Thursday April 21,2022 it's mostly mopars but anyone can come. There's a couple run groups. Alltimeracing.com $375

[StrokerAce]

I suspect Brian Rosati would help you. He knows Sebring well. A couple class track records there I believe in cars with decent power. I would see if I can make an introduction if you're interested?

Thank you! I'll shoot you a PM.

[Lawineer]

Thank you! I'll shoot you a PM.

BTW: Most tracks have some shop that will rent you a car. Or just ask around. Someone will rent you spec miata or BRZ or older 3 series or something for $1000 a day or something. You'll eat up more in fuel tires and brakes in the Viper.

[ViperGeorge]

BTW: Most tracks have some shop that will rent you a car. Or just ask around. Someone will rent you spec miata or BRZ or older 3 series or something for $1000 a day or something. You'll eat up more in fuel tires and brakes in the Viper.

I've rented a spec Miata to learn a new track that was far from home. Since a Miata is a momentum car I found that I basically had to relearn the track when in the higher powered Viper. The lack of power requires you to really maintain speed in a Miata since it takes the car far longer to accelerate than a Viper. It's really light weight allows you to drive into corners without being too heavy on the brakes if you use them at all.

My personal view, probably not shared by everyone, is that I would not learn to track in a Miata or lower powered car if your ultimate aim is to drive the Viper on track. The Gen 5 is actually pretty easy to drive on track. Yes it has enormous potential but you don't need to push the car to the limit when you are learning. A good instructor and some proper classroom work should allow you to enjoy a first time track experience in the Viper. Yes tires, brakes, and fuel will be more expensive in a Viper than a Miata but so what? We own these cars in spite of this because they are such great performance cars and offer an exceptional driving experience. I've been driving and tracking Vipers for over 20 years and I still get a rush when I get behind the wheel.

I say take the Viper, don't overdrive it, listen to your instructor, and build speed gradually. You should also watch Youtube videos of the track from a car similar to a Viper - Corvette or Porsche maybe. You need to learn the track before you can start to build speed. Your first sessions on track should be mostly focused on that.

Well that is my opinion for what its worth.

[Lawineer]

I'd strongly disagree, as would almost every coach/instructor but to each their own.

If you just want to do one track day to just enjoy your car, that's a different story. If you want to build skill that you can use to more enjoy your viper, I'd consider a lower power car.

[ViperGeorge]

I'd strongly disagree, as would almost every coach/instructor but to each their own.

If you just want to do one track day to just enjoy your car, that's a different story. If you want to build skill that you can use to more enjoy your viper, I'd consider a lower power car.

Well as I said not everyone would agree with me. I've also instructed but I still believe that lower powered cars don't take the same line as a high powered car. Because a high powered car carries more speed braking points are way different, the higher powered car tends to drift out further on corner exit, and they take more care in applying power exiting a corner. I fear if you learn a track in a Miata that you could end up in trouble the first time you drive it in your Viper. But as I said I know that many people wouldn't agree with me. It seems to be the accepted norm to start on a low power car. This has always seemed counter intuitive to me if your ultimate goal is to track a Viper.

But to each their own.

[Lawineer]

Momentum and power ("point and shoot") cars do take slightly different lines, depending on the turn, but they're not night and day. Heck, F1 cars are point and shoot. They are more of a "V" than a "U" in some turns. You might go out further in a momentum car or less. But again, it's the driving skill that's being developed much quicker.
If you drive a viper like a miata (carry more speed but go longer through the turn), you may just be slower than if you squared off the turns more.

Braking points change from car to car to car. You're just a fool if you try to carry them one car to another. I didn't push it in the Viper, but my C7 brakes at the same time as my BRZ, despite having much more speed, because it had way better brakes, way wider tires and could carry much more corner speed. I bet the Viper would be around the same braking point as C7 (but start out with more speed) if I was pushing it. The Miata had the earliest braking points simply because it had the skinniest tires and no splitter to help it (and the worst tires).
Braking points will literally change from day to day, even within a day. You need to feel that out and not memorize that. Heck, until your tires warm up there is a big difference.

I've started on higher hp vehicles on both bikes and in cars. Both times, my learning curve increased dramatically when I dropped down to a lower power vehicle (600rr and Miata). I know very good drivers who pick up time by hopping in slower cars from time to time.

[jrubin80]

Thought I would toss this out there as it was a full NASA TT season in the viper. Using Girodisc setup with Raybestos ST43s and Toyo RRs. Fuel was calculated at $4/gal. There are far stickier tires but this is what kept me in TT2 last season. Each set of RRs was capable of 2 full weekends and 2 practice days at front of group speed. On top of mine would be fuel and snacks to and from the track in a tow vehicle. I think tires would be the largest expense if I switched to something else. Our lapping days at the local track are 4 thirty-minute sessions per half day. So lots of track time. I never calculated expenses before I started with NASA, but I was doing 2 half days a week during the summer and I imagine frequent lapping is very very close if not beyond the expense of occasional lapping and time trials. All just my experience from the brief time I've had the Viper.

[ViperGeorge]

Braking points change from car to car to car. You're just a fool if you try to carry them one car to another.

Or inexperienced, which is my point. Switching from a slow car to a fast car without the appropriate experience could result in a bad outcome. So unless he stays in the Miata until he is "experienced" I think he is better off starting in the Viper. Vipers, especially Gen 5s with the nannies are not that hard to drive on the track and they are a heck of a lot of fun. I attended race school at Road Atlanta using Panoz race cars, before I got heavily into tracking the Viper. The Panoz cars were definitely not Miatas and were actually very fast. I guess that experience formed my point of view as to a good car to learn on. Any car can cause problems if the driver is an idiot. A good instructor is a requirement.

Again, I respect your point of view, it just isn't mine. I also realize that I may be in the minority with my views but I'm still enjoying the heck out of the Viper on track and the thought of going to a Miata or similar car wouldn't float my boat.

[Lawineer]

Thought I would toss this out there as it was a full NASA TT season in the viper. Using Girodisc setup with Raybestos ST43s and Toyo RRs. Fuel was calculated at $4/gal. There are far stickier tires but this is what kept me in TT2 last season. Each set of RRs was capable of 2 full weekends and 2 practice days at front of group speed. On top of mine would be fuel and snacks to and from the track in a tow vehicle. I think tires would be the largest expense if I switched to something else. Our lapping days at the local track are 4 thirty-minute sessions per half day. So lots of track time. I never calculated expenses before I started with NASA, but I was doing 2 half days a week during the summer and I imagine frequent lapping is very very close if not beyond the expense of occasional lapping and time trials. All just my experience from the brief time I've had the Viper.
Cool to see broken down. You only used one set of tires for 8 events and all those sessions? Don't they just heat cycle out? That's what happens to me after about 10 sessions and I can get a little more out of them, but it's not ideal. That's obviously biggest difference between our operational cost calculations.

How many hours do you estimate that is?


Or inexperienced, which is my point. Switching from a slow car to a fast car without the appropriate experience could result in a bad outcome. So unless he stays in the Miata until he is "experienced" I think he is better off starting in the Viper. Vipers, especially Gen 5s with the nannies are not that hard to drive on the track and they are a heck of a lot of fun. I attended race school at Road Atlanta using Panoz race cars, before I got heavily into tracking the Viper. The Panoz cars were definitely not Miatas and were actually very fast. I guess that experience formed my point of view as to a good car to learn on. Any car can cause problems if the driver is an idiot. A good instructor is a requirement.

Again, I respect your point of view, it just isn't mine. I also realize that I may be in the minority with my views but I'm still enjoying the heck out of the Viper on track and the thought of going to a Miata or similar car wouldn't float my boat.

Oh, I didn't mean it to be condosending or insulting. I wasn't implying you do that; in fact my unspoken assumption was that you dont, which is why I said only a fool would do that.

I tracked my C7 a lot, even despite having a dedicated track car. My buddy has a GT3RS and we loved running the two together. Street cars can be fun in that sense. It was also just really easy to drive. Street cars (almost all) understeer, lol. It's nice never having to worry about the rear end coming around. I drove it hard, but I wasn't ever *really* running hard, and in some turns I intentionally left a tenth or two on the table. It was also nice just dropping it off at the dealership on the way home with helmet and driving gloves and shoes in the passenger seat, hopping in a Tahoe and getting the car back in a few days when/if anything went wrong.

The BRZ has moderate high speed understeer and is neutral (read: it can understeer or oversteer) at slow to medium speeds. It's got you tied down to the race seat with a halo. It's a pain to get in and out of. You have to constantly watch all gauges. I drove it more or less as hard as I could seeking every tenth I can find. I dont know how to explain it, but it was work vs. leisure tracking. It's different.

I agree that if he just want to do it once to have fun in his awesome car, he should drive the Viper. If he wants to develop driving skill, it's not a good choice to learn in.

One thing about nannies, they can get you into some very bad habits. I did the C7 driving school thing. They let me do the "advanced" driving school. But they made you keep nannies on. They said it doesn't interfere- bullshit. I was running very similar lap times to instructors when they had them on. They ran several seconds faster with them off. It's what I call "linear driving." You're just hitting the line. No rotation on the gas or brake, no driving a little lose, no "micro adjustments" through the turn, etc. It's also what HPDE instructors do for you.
Well, by the end of the two days, I was absolutely just dive bombing into turns and just dropping the hammer on exit. Not consciously, but the nannies are pretty smooth and I didn't always notice them kicking in, so I'd just keep going harder and harder.

My next track day in my car with nannies off was a disaster. It was the most frustrated I've EVER been at the track, including the day I put a car into a wall (lightly). I kept spinning off, messing up, etc. I am STILL very binary on the gas. I have trouble rolling on smooth. I eventually get the right exit speed, but I'm leaving 2 tenths in every turn due to speed through the turn. Even though it's only something like $1000 for 2 days with instruction to drive a C8 on track with instructors in Vegas, I won't go back. I picked up other stuff, but I'm not going to drive a car with nannies on the track again. Just ABS.

Again, this doesn't apply if his goal is a fun day in his car.

[ViperGeorge]

Cool to see broken down. You only used one set of tires for 8 events and all those sessions? Don't they just heat cycle out? That's what happens to me after about 10 sessions and I can get a little more out of them, but it's not ideal. That's obviously biggest difference between our operational cost calculations.

How many hours do you estimate that is?



Oh, I didn't mean it to be condosending or insulting. I wasn't implying you do that; in fact my unspoken assumption was that you dont, which is why I said only a fool would do that.

I tracked my C7 a lot, even despite having a dedicated track car. My buddy has a GT3RS and we loved running the two together. Street cars can be fun in that sense. It was also just really easy to drive. Street cars (almost all) understeer, lol. It's nice never having to worry about the rear end coming around. I drove it hard, but I wasn't ever *really* running hard, and in some turns I intentionally left a tenth or two on the table. It was also nice just dropping it off at the dealership on the way home with helmet and driving gloves and shoes in the passenger seat, hopping in a Tahoe and getting the car back in a few days when/if anything went wrong.

The BRZ has moderate high speed understeer and is neutral (read: it can understeer or oversteer) at slow to medium speeds. It's got you tied down to the race seat with a halo. It's a pain to get in and out of. You have to constantly watch all gauges. I drove it more or less as hard as I could seeking every tenth I can find. I dont know how to explain it, but it was work vs. leisure tracking. It's different.

I agree that if he just want to do it once to have fun in his awesome car, he should drive the Viper. If he wants to develop driving skill, it's not a good choice to learn in.

One thing about nannies, they can get you into some very bad habits. I did the C7 driving school thing. They let me do the "advanced" driving school. But they made you keep nannies on. They said it doesn't interfere- bullshit. I was running very similar lap times to instructors when they had them on. They ran several seconds faster with them off. It's what I call "linear driving." You're just hitting the line. No rotation on the gas or brake, no driving a little lose, no "micro adjustments" through the turn, etc. It's also what HPDE instructors do for you.
Well, by the end of the two days, I was absolutely just dive bombing into turns and just dropping the hammer on exit. Not consciously, but the nannies are pretty smooth and I didn't always notice them kicking in, so I'd just keep going harder and harder.

My next track day in my car with nannies off was a disaster. It was the most frustrated I've EVER been at the track, including the day I put a car into a wall (lightly). I kept spinning off, messing up, etc. I am STILL very binary on the gas. I have trouble rolling on smooth. I eventually get the right exit speed, but I'm leaving 2 tenths in every turn due to speed through the turn. Even though it's only something like $1000 for 2 days with instruction to drive a C8 on track with instructors in Vegas, I won't go back. I picked up other stuff, but I'm not going to drive a car with nannies on the track again. Just ABS.

Again, this doesn't apply if his goal is a fun day in his car.

I never thought you were calling me a fool. No offense taken. I first started tracking in 1999 with my RT/10. No nannies, no ABS. The Panoz cars they I used in racing school also did not have nannies and were quite fast. The Gen 5's nannies were designed (I know the engineer that designed them) as not to interfere unless you were really in trouble. They were track tested but yes a really fast driver would likely be faster with them off. That said, I run the track with them off. Even when I forget to turn them off (as you have to do every time you start the car) I rarely notice them intervening. However, I think a new driver on track can leave them on and they should only intervene if the car gets really out of shape.

I never fancied myself a professional race driver. I wouldn't say I'm slow on tracks I know but I know others are probably faster. For me, experience on a given track helps me go much faster. I'm not fast on tracks I don't know. That is one of the really hard things for me on the One Lap of America. You get one recon lap and then have to go fast. Others (mostly people that grew up doing autoX) can see the track for one lap and then do a blisteringly fast lap, that's not me. My co-driver and I place well when One Lap happens to hit one of our home tracks but this is not often. For me, I wish I would have started with autoX as it gives you the skill to learn a track layout very quickly. That would make me a heck of a lot faster on tracks I don't know.

If the OP intends to go racing or really hit the track heavily I would recommend he goes to a multiday racing school not just have an instructor for a track day. With a school like the one I went to at Road Atlanta you are immersed and get constant feedback on every turn. On the other hand if he just wants to hit the track occasionally in his Viper I say go for it.

[SRT_BluByU]

I've rented a spec Miata to learn a new track that was far from home. Since a Miata is a momentum car I found that I basically had to relearn the track when in the higher powered Viper. The lack of power requires you to really maintain speed in a Miata since it takes the car far longer to accelerate than a Viper. It's really light weight allows you to drive into corners without being too heavy on the brakes if you use them at all.

My personal view, probably not shared by everyone, is that I would not learn to track in a Miata or lower powered car if your ultimate aim is to drive the Viper on track. The Gen 5 is actually pretty easy to drive on track. Yes it has enormous potential but you don't need to push the car to the limit when you are learning. A good instructor and some proper classroom work should allow you to enjoy a first time track experience in the Viper. Yes tires, brakes, and fuel will be more expensive in a Viper than a Miata but so what? We own these cars in spite of this because they are such great performance cars and offer an exceptional driving experience. I've been driving and tracking Vipers for over 20 years and I still get a rush when I get behind the wheel.

I say take the Viper, don't overdrive it, listen to your instructor, and build speed gradually. You should also watch Youtube videos of the track from a car similar to a Viper - Corvette or Porsche maybe. You need to learn the track before you can start to build speed. Your first sessions on track should be mostly focused on that.

Well that is my opinion for what its worth.

I agreed completely..

[Mikey]

I agreed completely..

Do you have the part numbers? Found out the dealer near me has a Viper tech

[quickster2]

A bit off topic but before anyone tracks a car I would highly recommend Ross Bentley's Ultimate Speed Secrets book. Regardless of a Spec Miata or a Viper one needs to understand the nuances of track driving. The book really focus's on speed, performance, and winning, not necessarily winning the race but from within. It is an easy read as well.

[ViperGeorge]

why the last? has the event changed?

The event hasn't changed per se but the competition is now really nuts. There are car owners that hire professional drivers to run the tracks. The car owners do the transit legs but don't do the track stuff. The cars have gotten stupid fast as well. I guess I just don't find it as much fun as it used to be for me. I'm also getting too old for it.

The event is really challenging for car and drivers but honestly it is exhausting. Every day at a different track and every evening a several hundred mile road trip to the next track (sometimes as much as 700 miles). As I've posted in this thread I'm not the kind of driver that can see a track for one lap and then go stupid fast like the top drivers can. Problem is there are many more top drivers with that skill than there used to be so our overall finish has moved down over the years.

Also last year after running my Vipers for many years I told my co-driver it was his turn to bring a car. He has a Porsche turbo so I was hoping he would bring that. Instead he bought an Audi S5 with a tune and an automatic. Nice car over the road, a lot more comfortable than my ACR, but I hated it on track. Thing never knew what gear to be in and I didn't have experience using paddle shifters. So this year it is back to my ACR for a last hooray. We may still finish down the list but at least it will be more fun on track. My co-driver, a dear friend of 40+ years, has never been comfortable in my Viper on track. He is not used to such a high horsepower car as he races an old Porsche with maybe a couple hundred HP. So he tends to baby it around track. That's really ok with me, I'd rather have him go easy than wreck it. He is also like me though, he doesn't go fast until he knows the track. Last time we hit his home track in NJ he placed 9th, which for us was outstanding.

[Arizona Vipers]

Nice video, track looks to be very fast!!!

To your question about tracking G5's, I'd guess probably closer to 5%. Probably was closer to 10% in the first few years, then as prices began to rise so many G5 owners are more focused on appreciation then having fun with their Vipers!! Too bad, their great track cars!! Have fun and be safe, don't worry about resale!!!! Mike

Agreed on this, I know a lot of "retired" Gen 5 ACR's hehe

[Arizona Vipers]

Nick, if he’s here I don’t know. In Phoenix is Rich Marizale who has a G5 GTSR body that might be on a CC chassis? Not sure. I think Cable knows whoever did the set up your asking about

Correct, it's a very nice car and is "for sale". It has the best of everything.

[Arizona Vipers]

The event hasn't changed per se but the competition is now really nuts. There are car owners that hire professional drivers to run the tracks. The car owners do the transit legs but don't do the track stuff. The cars have gotten stupid fast as well. I guess I just don't find it as much fun as it used to be for me. I'm also getting too old for it.

The event is really challenging for car and drivers but honestly it is exhausting. Every day at a different track and every evening a several hundred mile road trip to the next track (sometimes as much as 700 miles). As I've posted in this thread I'm not the kind of driver that can see a track for one lap and then go stupid fast like the top drivers can. Problem is there are many more top drivers with that skill than there used to be so our overall finish has moved down over the years.

Also last year after running my Vipers for many years I told my co-driver it was his turn to bring a car. He has a Porsche turbo so I was hoping he would bring that. Instead he bought an Audi S5 with a tune and an automatic. Nice car over the road, a lot more comfortable than my ACR, but I hated it on track. Thing never knew what gear to be in and I didn't have experience using paddle shifters. So this year it is back to my ACR for a last hooray. We may still finish down the list but at least it will be more fun on track. My co-driver, a dear friend of 40+ years, has never been comfortable in my Viper on track. He is not used to such a high horsepower car as he races an old Porsche with maybe a couple hundred HP. So he tends to baby it around track. That's really ok with me, I'd rather have him go easy than wreck it. He is also like me though, he doesn't go fast until he knows the track. Last time we hit his home track in NJ he placed 9th, which for us was outstanding.


That's BS. Hired pro driver cars should all be in their own class.

[ViperGeorge]

That's BS. Hired pro driver cars should all be in their own class.

Well that is not the way the rules are. The rules only put you in a class based only on the car you are driving. In fact the car is classed based on how it left the factory not what you've done to it. The Viper is GT 1 Big Bore (over 3 liters displacement). There are classes for GT 1 Small Bore, GT 2, SUV, Alternate Fuel, Vintage American, Vintage Foreign, Economy, Luxury Sedan, etc. Driver qualifications don't come into play other than drivers that Brock knows are fast will receive low numbers and will run in the fastest groups. The idea being that you should be running with drivers of similar speed. Brock's numbering is a guess to some extent so it is sorted out after the first event. There have been drivers that have run the 24hrs of Daytona and won their class and of course won One Lap. Of course non-pro drivers have also won. Randy Pobst competed last year but in an SUV so he wasn't super fast.

[darbgnik]

That's BS. Hired pro driver cars should all be in their own class.

Well they say If ya ain't cheatin, ya ain't tryin,

But that does seem to go against the spirit if the event.... makes you wonder, what's the point?

[Rare Snake]

Well as I said not everyone would agree with me. I've also instructed but I still believe that lower powered cars don't take the same line as a high powered car. Because a high powered car carries more speed braking points are way different, the higher powered car tends to drift out further on corner exit, and they take more care in applying power exiting a corner. I fear if you learn a track in a Miata that you could end up in trouble the first time you drive it in your Viper. But as I said I know that many people wouldn't agree with me. It seems to be the accepted norm to start on a low power car. This has always seemed counter intuitive to me if your ultimate goal is to track a Viper.

But to each their own.

I agree with this 100%.

When I first took my local race school many years ago, I had a very big problem with having to let the Instructor drive it for a session, that's just their silly rule. Their counter-argument was to bring my daily driver if I didn't trust them. But I didn't want to learn in my daily, I wanted to be in the Viper. Many years later now, I'm fairly quick in my Viper, but when I entered the daily in Time Attack last season, I was automatically very fast in my lower class, actually running competitive raw times against better cars a couple of classes higher than me. I honestly believe that I am faster because I really learned in a Viper, which made my daily a breeze to drive at its limit. There is a very big learning curve between the two, but once I figured it out, I accidentally ended up on the podium.

If I would have learned in the slower car, I think the Viper would have been harder to push in the end. But maybe that's just me.

[ViperNC]

I agree with this 100%.

When I first took my local race school many years ago, I had a very big problem with having to let the Instructor drive it for a session, that's just their silly rule. Their counter-argument was to bring my daily driver if I didn't trust them. But I didn't want to learn in my daily, I wanted to be in the Viper. Many years later now, I'm fairly quick in my Viper, but when I entered the daily in Time Attack last season, I was automatically very fast in my lower class, actually running competitive raw times against better cars a couple of classes higher than me. I honestly believe that I am faster because I really learned in a Viper, which made my daily a breeze to drive at its limit. There is a very big learning curve between the two, but once I figured it out, I accidentally ended up on the podium.

If I would have learned in the slower car, I think the Viper would have been harder to push in the end. But maybe that's just me.

I tend to agree with you on this. I started years ago doing track events with karts and on motorcycles and then switched over to cars. I found lower displacement cars rather boring so I first tracked my GT500, then my Backdraft Cobra, and most recently my Viper. I like having the instant power at hand when you want it, but most of the time I'm rolling on the power smoothly and especially so in the Viper. It comes down to knowing your car and its mannerisms at speed, trusting your abilities, and most importantly knowing your limits.

[13COBRA]

Just weighing in on the age old argument of what type of power/speed you should learn on.

I learned how to ride a motorcycle on a 03 Honda 954RR. Then learned how to track a car in a Gen IV ACR.

If you don't respect the power you have, you'll get yourself hurt. But just take it easy and learn. I've driven a few low horsepower (momentum) cars on track, and I can't stand them. I feel like my face is getting rubbed off with a giant cheese grader.

Respect what you have, don't overdrive your skill level, all will be fine. I can't tell you how many people have jumped in my cars that come from other 'fast' cars and tell me how hard my car is to drive...guess what, I don't think it is. I think it's predictable, controllable and a blast to drive. If you can drive a Viper at speed, I can't think of any other RWD cars that you wouldn't feel comfortable in.

Just my $0.02, and my wife will be the first to tell you that I'm not agreed with often. haha

[jrubin80]

Cool to see broken down. You only used one set of tires for 8 events and all those sessions? Don't they just heat cycle out? That's what happens to me after about 10 sessions and I can get a little more out of them, but it's not ideal. That's obviously biggest difference between our operational cost calculations.

How many hours do you estimate that is?

Sorry, Something I did not account for before posting that. I only purchased 1 set of tires but received more thru Toyo Bucks. The season was completed on 2 sets total. For me, they heat-cycled out before cording. My experience was they were within 3/10 of a second of new until 20 heat cycles. Then slow drop off. After 25 cycles I used them for lapping days. The average heat cycle was 5 laps. So based on most of the tracks I get to a heat cycle is 10min +/-. Oil changes every other event for the most part. Someone pushing 9/10 or higher could probably drop another second of lap times and cut the usable tire/brake life down a lot, but I was never willing to push that hard.

I can echo George's experience as well in the Viper. Prior to this, I had only done around 5-6 lapping days in a Focus RS before hopping into the Viper. And the Viper is easy as hell to track on track. The ABS and TC system makes this car very hard to screw.

[jrubin80]

A bit off topic but before anyone tracks a car I would highly recommend Ross Bentley's Ultimate Speed Secrets book. Regardless of a Spec Miata or a Viper one needs to understand the nuances of track driving. The book really focus's on speed, performance, and winning, not necessarily winning the race but from within. It is an easy read as well.

100% agree with this. I try and go back thru the book often when I am having problems with a particular track. It should be required reading.

[Lawineer]

Just got back from the track where my BRZ ate up a 350 Cobra (or whatever the FPC version is called). :shrug:

I've tracked karts to miatas to my viper, 600cc bikes and 1000cc bikes. I just dont see how anyone can say the learning curve is better on higher hp vehicles, let along something like Viper. I get you can go faster, quicker, but for developing driving skill, it's not even close. I have yet to meet a single professional driving coach or even pro driver/driver (and I've met many being in the industry) who would so much as hesitate to whole heartedly agree.

To each their own, and agree to disagree I suppose.

[Gen5snake]

Just got back from the track where my BRZ ate up a 350 Cobra (or whatever the FPC version is called). :shrug:

I've tracked karts to miatas to my viper, 600cc bikes and 1000cc bikes. I just dont see how anyone can say the learning curve is better on higher hp vehicles, let along something like Viper. I get you can go faster, quicker, but for developing driving skill, it's not even close. I have yet to meet a single professional driving coach or even pro driver/driver (and I've met many being in the industry) who would so much as hesitate to whole heartedly agree.

To each their own, and agree to disagree I suppose.

I remember one of the driving schools at Lime Rock used to teach people in Dodge Neon's. They would also put an experienced driver in a Neon and run them against first timers in a Viper. The Neon would win every time. I guess they were trying to make a point.

[StrokerAce]

I remember one of the driving schools at Lime Rock used to teach people in Dodge Neon's. They would also put an experienced driver in a Neon and run them against first timers in a Viper. The Neon would win every time. I guess they were trying to make a point.

Which makes total sense. From someone not biased one way or the other I can see that on the average, because most people do not respect vehicles or understand their abilities (mostly lack of), they tend to get into more trouble more easily with higher powered cars.

This is of course from a completely outside perspective as I see people spinning out Camrys, Tahoes, and any type of vehicles quite regularly. lol

[13COBRA]

I remember one of the driving schools at Lime Rock used to teach people in Dodge Neon's. They would also put an experienced driver in a Neon and run them against first timers in a Viper. The Neon would win every time. I guess they were trying to make a point.

LOL

Did the inexperienced guys in the Vipers drive in flip flops, jean shorts and gold chains? Or were those reserved for the inexperienced Corvette guys?

[Lawineer]

I remember one of the driving schools at Lime Rock used to teach people in Dodge Neon's. They would also put an experienced driver in a Neon and run them against first timers in a Viper. The Neon would win every time. I guess they were trying to make a point.

If you can’t come near the limits of a slow car, why would you think you can do it in a viper. The incredible capabilities of the car mask all the little mistakes and deficiencies. You can be well below what the car is capable of and still run super-hero lap times. Same goes for novices who throw slicks on. Lol there’s a guy on the corvette forum claiming slicks cured his oversteer. First, a c7 z06 doesn’t oversteer. It’s heavy understeer. Second, it only “cures” oversteer because the extra grip eats up his poor driving that somehow causes the rear end to come out on a heavy understeer car (in entry and mid turn lol).


Which makes total sense. From someone not biased one way or the other I can see that on the average, because most people do not respect vehicles or understand their abilities (mostly lack of), they tend to get into more trouble more easily with higher powered cars.

This is of course from a completely outside perspective as I see people spinning out Camrys, Tahoes, and any type of vehicles quite regularly. lol

The whole point is that you don’t have to “respect” the power. You can get into the throttle without fear and be comfortable- and if you make a mistake, correct it. The whole point is that you can drive hard.
I see this same chatter on other high hp forums. Then I watch their videos and see a driver who isn’t near the limit of the car (albeit, with blazing lap times). Watch a video of really fast guys and you’ll see them constantly adjusting steering with micro-corrections, rotating the car on the brakes and throttle, etc. Almost (not every)all the videos I watch of guys who claim to have learned faster in fast cars don’t do that.

The only people I’ve ever seen say you learn faster with a faster car are people who didn’t spend significant time learning in slow cars and claiming they got bored and/or out grew ilow powered cars (which is pretty comical itself because they’re all probably DFL in a spec miata or Sbp. If you think you’re too fast for low power, go on a karting track with someone even mildly competitive in karting (real karts, not amusement parks). I can’t even understand it being boring. Driving a slow car fast is a lot more fun than respecting the power of a fast car.

The people who say start in low power are people who started with big power cars and then went down to slow cars, pro drivers and pro coaches and every single driving school ever.

You can get fast eventually, with enough seat time (and money), but it’s definitely not the fastest, safest (or cheapest) way to get there.

[Gen5snake]

But to the OP's question. No, I don't track my car. I have some sort of mental health issue that will not allow me to track the car. My car is a freaking garage queen. I know...I know. It's like not banging your girlfriend because you're saving her for the next guy. I'm too OCD about blemishes on a low production car. It's nuts. I've always been like this with all my cars though. If someone can just come over my house and smack the thing with a hammer, then I would have no problem taking it to the track because it's no longer perfect.

[pMak26]

But to the OP's question. No, I don't track my car. I have some sort of mental health issue that will not allow me to track the car. My car is a freaking garage queen. I know...I know. It's like not banging your girlfriend because you're saving her for the next guy. I'm too OCD about blemishes on a low production car. It's nuts. I've always been like this with all my cars though. If someone can just come over my house and smack the thing with a hammer, then I would have no problem taking it to the track because it's no longer perfect.

I 100% understand this, and my TA1.0 is more like art to me too. But maybe, get a 2nd one to track?

[pMak26]

...The only people I’ve ever seen say you learn faster with a faster car are people who didn’t spend significant time learning in slow cars and claiming they got bored and/or out grew ilow powered cars (which is pretty comical itself because they’re all probably DFL in a spec miata or Sbp. If you think you’re too fast for low power, go on a karting track with someone even mildly competitive in karting (real karts, not amusement parks). I can’t even understand it being boring. Driving a slow car fast is a lot more fun than respecting the power of a fast car.

The people who say start in low power are people who started with big power cars and then went down to slow cars, pro drivers and pro coaches and every single driving school ever.


I also agree higher HP and tech-y cars do not have one learn faster/better. In majority of cases they are detrimental to learning. Case in point, first time I instructed someone in a Nissan GTR. Young kid, maybe 20 years old, out having a track day in his dad's car (fact, his dad was there and said this haha). This young man wasn't terrible, but he wasn't good. He was learning to really throw the car into the apex of the corner, let the brake vectoring and computers on the car sort his mess out, then he hammers the throttle and the car vector throttle steers his way out of running out of road. The computers on that car are amazing. So, he could do a somewhat respectable lap time still but the car was doing all the work. I had to really pull him aside after a session, sit him down, and explain what the car was doing and really drive home that if he tried that in, well, literally any other car, he was going to be in a wall - hard. Take that kid and put him in a Miata and I'd bet my life's saving he'd bin it within the first 5 minutes.

Can you learn and get better in a fast car, of course. Can you learn proper technique in a fast car... not as quickly as you can in a slow car.

[Lawineer]

But to the OP's question. No, I don't track my car. I have some sort of mental health issue that will not allow me to track the car. My car is a freaking garage queen. I know...I know. It's like not banging your girlfriend because you're saving her for the next guy. I'm too OCD about blemishes on a low production car. It's nuts. I've always been like this with all my cars though. If someone can just come over my house and smack the thing with a hammer, then I would have no problem taking it to the track because it's no longer perfect.

You guys have resale value on your exes? :lol:

[13COBRA]

You guys have resale value on your exes? :lol:

I only wish. I dumped a lot of money into my ex wife, never saw a penny. We were only married 8 months haha

[RedTanRT/10]

Correct, it's a very nice car and is "for sale". It has the best of everything.

Yeah, except for his spindles!!! AZ, he broke a spindle at Buttowillow, 2nd session Saturday. Spun across the track and I swerved to miss it. In a stoke of really bad luck, it was spinning across the track and it went under my car behind the front passenger wheel and the side sill. Happened right at the bus stop, taped the brake, turn in left then went sideways on my oil 50 yards into the dirt! Broke my oil pan in 3 places, bellhousing cover and 5 holes in the CF undertray.

Hadn't seen Rich in maybe 10 years, hope its 20 more till I see him again!!!!



51081

51083

51082

51084

[ViperNC]

I've tracked karts to miatas to my viper, 600cc bikes and 1000cc bikes. I just dont see how anyone can say the learning curve is better on higher hp vehicles, let along something like Viper. I get you can go faster, quicker, but for developing driving skill, it's not even close. I have yet to meet a single professional driving coach or even pro driver/driver (and I've met many being in the industry) who would so much as hesitate to whole heartedly agree.

I think this is specific to the person behind the wheel. You have some people that have never been on a track and don't ever drive their car on the street at a level which requires any more skill than your run of the mill SUV. If that person gets on track, then yes put them in a small displacement car that is very forgiving and let them explore the limits. For me, I grew up pushing the limits and exploring car control (probably far too often) so I'm quite used to driving at a higher level.

For instance, I participated in a HPDE a few years ago at the BMW Performance Driving school and in one of the events they handed me the key to a 135i turbo when all the other drivers were in M3's and M6's. We were on the back small road course which had one long straight into a climbing and decreasing radius left hand corner which then went back down the hill into a series of esses and then another left off camber corner back onto the straight. The higher displacement cars were pulling away from me a bit on the straight, but as soon as we got into the braking zone I was passing everybody and by the time we got to the esses I was gone. The instructor gave me a warning a few times as I was literally on the rear bumper of an M6 asking me to back off and my reply on the radio was simple. "He's slow". Later they gave me an M3 for a timed event where you had to accelerate from a dead stop, maneuver through some cones, brake hard for a sharp right hand corner, and then haul ass to a box you had to stop in and not overshoot. I got within .1 seconds of their lead instructor's best time on my first go. He came up to me afterwards and said, "You've been here before". "Nope. Never been here", I replied.

The point of the story is that everyone's skill and comfort level is relative. At the end of the day its really about having a good time. If lap times define you having a good time then go for it. None of us are getting paid to race that I'm aware of. I do think that guys who have tracked on two wheels have an advantage over those who don't have that experience. If you can learn how to manage the throttle and go quickly on a bike, cars become easy. This was my last two wheeled track day 11 years ago on my old liter track bike.
51085

[Aevus]

Watch a video of really fast guys and you’ll see them constantly adjusting steering with micro-corrections, rotating the car on the brakes and throttle, etc. Almost (not every)all the videos I watch of guys who claim to have learned faster in fast cars don’t do that.



Yes, that's true.

Took me few years of driving school sessions, to just get to the point I could be comfortable pushing the car to the limits. And only in few spots on the track. With a pretty easy and forgiving car (981 GTS). And still, was very far of constantly ''micro-correcting'' as the pro drivers are doing...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYtQEiX7iyA

Based on the (limited) experience I have with my gen3 Viper, I would need many sessions to be as comfortable as with the Porsche. The higher power, yes, but also the traction control (which I don't have) makes it a bit scarier. Something you guys with gen 5 don't have to deal with.

[Arizona Vipers]

Well that is not the way the rules are. The rules only put you in a class based only on the car you are driving. In fact the car is classed based on how it left the factory not what you've done to it. The Viper is GT 1 Big Bore (over 3 liters displacement). There are classes for GT 1 Small Bore, GT 2, SUV, Alternate Fuel, Vintage American, Vintage Foreign, Economy, Luxury Sedan, etc. Driver qualifications don't come into play other than drivers that Brock knows are fast will receive low numbers and will run in the fastest groups. The idea being that you should be running with drivers of similar speed. Brock's numbering is a guess to some extent so it is sorted out after the first event. There have been drivers that have run the 24hrs of Daytona and won their class and of course won One Lap. Of course non-pro drivers have also won. Randy Pobst competed last year but in an SUV so he wasn't super fast.

I've had to compete against pro drivers and I hate it. Thankfully I won or I'd be pissed. LOL.. Pro driver is pure cheating. Any pro is gonna be 3-5 seconds faster than the best amateurs, that's like having another 100hp, so you should have to be in another class.

[Arizona Vipers]

I agree with this 100%.

When I first took my local race school many years ago, I had a very big problem with having to let the Instructor drive it for a session, that's just their silly rule. Their counter-argument was to bring my daily driver if I didn't trust them. But I didn't want to learn in my daily, I wanted to be in the Viper. Many years later now, I'm fairly quick in my Viper, but when I entered the daily in Time Attack last season, I was automatically very fast in my lower class, actually running competitive raw times against better cars a couple of classes higher than me. I honestly believe that I am faster because I really learned in a Viper, which made my daily a breeze to drive at its limit. There is a very big learning curve between the two, but once I figured it out, I accidentally ended up on the podium.

If I would have learned in the slower car, I think the Viper would have been harder to push in the end. But maybe that's just me.

I agree with this. I learned in a high powered Gen 2 which is arguably the hardest car to track in history LOL. I spun that thing just about every session for over year, then moved on to my Gen 5 and was immediately very fast in it. I can now jump in any car and be very fast with it because it feels like slow motion. I jump in my son's Type R and do HPDE4 every once in awhile and smoke everything with it, Vettes, Mustangs etc. Drivers that are fast in slow momentum cars have certain skills we don't have and vice versa. I couldn't jump in a spec Miata and be as fast as the owner, and they can't jump in my 900hp car and be as fast as me.

[Lawineer]

I've had to compete against pro drivers and I hate it. Thankfully I won or I'd be pissed. LOL.. Pro driver is pure cheating. Any pro is gonna be 3-5 seconds faster than the best amateurs, that's like having another 100hp, so you should have to be in another class.

Plus they're really really consistent, don't crash and even when they do something like drop a tire or two, they recover very well. They also find ways around people MUCH better than us mere mortals. In short, aside from their individual lap times being faster, their "session" lap times are even more of an advantage.

I think the problem comes in defining a pro driver and enforcing it. I agree though. It's really discouraged me from making a run at WRL with my buddies. Not only is that one less driver to split costs, it's also one person we have to pay. a $25k season turned into a $40k season.

[Pappy]

[QUOTE=RedTanRT/10;456678]Yeah, except for his spindles!!! AZ, he broke a spindle at Buttowillow, 2nd session Saturday. Spun across the track and I swerved to miss it. In a stoke of really bad luck, it was spinning across the track and it went under my car behind the front passenger wheel and the side sill. Happened right at the bus stop, taped the brake, turn in left then went sideways on my oil 50 yards into the dirt! Broke my oil pan in 3 places, bellhousing cover and 5 holes in the CF undertray.

Hadn't seen Rich in maybe 10 years, hope its 20 more till I see him again!!!!

Ouch. Hate to hear that. Any internal damage to the motor?

Pappy

[RedTanRT/10]

Pappy, thanks goodness no!!! Cost me about $3k in parts and labor to fix, plus a big mess cleaning all the oil, plus I missed 1/2 of Saturday and the Sunday sessions

Next trip out, couldn’t get the oil pressure up, towed back from the track to Dan’s. Turned out a metal sliver got trapped in the oil filter bypass valve. Cleaned it and then all good

It was such a freakish event, I severed to get around it. Guy in a Nissan GTR who was behind me, kidding gave me a hard time about oil on his car, he told me, Yeah I saw you swerve, you didn’t realized it was spinning across the track!!! Entered between the rear of the RF tire and before the sill. What’s the odds in that??!

[StrokerAce]

Somewhere I still have this. Think it will help my driving?

https://youtu.be/uNwEp9Bz21Y

[Lawineer]

Somewhere I still have this. Think it will help my driving?

https://youtu.be/uNwEp9Bz21Y

Do they have a Bush league one? Too high HP.

[StrokerAce]

Do they have a Bush league one? Too high HP.

I beat that game like Chris Brown beat.....uh, well, you know.

[ViperGeorge]

This is an interesting thread and one of the first in memory where people have remained respectful of other's opinions. Whether you learn on a slow or fast car a good data system like the Race Logic HD2 can help your driving. A good friend of mine and I both have the system and we can put our laps side by side. I used to be faster than him at our local track but now he is faster than me (not by much but by enough). We both have 9L extremes, his is a TA 2.0 and mine an ACR-E. I have a slight advantage car wise in the turns because of better aero but he has an advantage on the straights especially the long back straight due to less drag.

In any event, one thing we noticed was that he shifts faster than I do. I forget the amount of time I'm losing on the track because of his quicker shifts but it adds up. I have gone out and tried to shift faster but he is still faster shifting. I don't think my muscles are capable of moving any faster. We can look at braking points (not too much different) and corner entry and exit speeds. In some turns he is quicker and in some I am. We can then work on our slower turns. The system also gives you your optimal lap time by putting together your fastest segments from each lap. This tells you what your time would have been had you driven every turn at the best you can. Of course traffic can be a factor so the integrated video lets you see exactly what is going on as you analyze the data. Highly recommended system.

[Gen5snake]

I 100% understand this, and my TA1.0 is more like art to me too. But maybe, get a 2nd one to track?

That's a great option. The funny part is that I avoided the ACR's and TA because I knew I would never track them because of future values and super low production numbers. When I was looking to buy, the ACR extreme's were only about $115 - 140k depending on color combo and TA's were in the mid 90's. I said to myself, I'll have no problem tracking a base model. Found a mint one with only 3k on the clock for 70k...and here I am, can't do it. The car is art. I need that Neon to beat around the track. Cheap consumables too...tires/brakes...no special insurance..who cares.

[Racingswh]

My first track experiences were in karts and low horsepower open wheel cars.

Some of the most fun I have ever had on a racetrack was in my ACR-E.

Once in awhile you come across other Vipers and it makes it that much more fun!! This dark grey, almost black with red driver's stripe Viper was the first ACR-E I ever laid eyes on and the driver was super cool. A couple years later we had the opportunity to meet up on track. We had a lot of fun that weekend!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpqFbztUyrA

[ViperSRT]

This is an interesting thread and one of the first in memory where people have remained respectful of other's opinions. Whether you learn on a slow or fast car a good data system like the Race Logic HD2 can help your driving. A good friend of mine and I both have the system and we can put our laps side by side. I used to be faster than him at our local track but now he is faster than me (not by much but by enough). We both have 9L extremes, his is a TA 2.0 and mine an ACR-E. I have a slight advantage car wise in the turns because of better aero but he has an advantage on the straights especially the long back straight due to less drag.

In any event, one thing we noticed was that he shifts faster than I do. I forget the amount of time I'm losing on the track because of his quicker shifts but it adds up. I have gone out and tried to shift faster but he is still faster shifting. I don't think my muscles are capable of moving any faster. We can look at braking points (not too much different) and corner entry and exit speeds. In some turns he is quicker and in some I am. We can then work on our slower turns. The system also gives you your optimal lap time by putting together your fastest segments from each lap. This tells you what your time would have been had you driven every turn at the best you can. Of course traffic can be a factor so the integrated video lets you see exactly what is going on as you analyze the data. Highly recommended system.

Very interesting. I always wondered how the TA2 would stack up against an ACR-E with similar tires and drivers.

[ViperGeorge]

Plus they're really really consistent, don't crash and even when they do something like drop a tire or two, they recover very well. They also find ways around people MUCH better than us mere mortals. In short, aside from their individual lap times being faster, their "session" lap times are even more of an advantage.

I think the problem comes in defining a pro driver and enforcing it. I agree though. It's really discouraged me from making a run at WRL with my buddies. Not only is that one less driver to split costs, it's also one person we have to pay. a $25k season turned into a $40k season.

One other way to think about it is this. How often would a smuck like me get the opportunity to spend a week at the track with some of the best pro drivers? Most of these people are more than willing to share their insights. They are willing to help guys like me any way they can. That is actually pretty cool. So I don't mind that there are pros competing in the One Lap of America. Sure would I like to place better? Absolutely but as the years have gone on and I've gotten older I am in the event for fun, not to win. Our best finish was 15th overall which out of some 80 cars was pretty darn good for us. That was a few years ago. But I do cherish the fact that we were one position ahead of a senior driving instructor that owned a driving school.

[pMak26]

This is an interesting thread and one of the first in memory where people have remained respectful of other's opinions. Whether you learn on a slow or fast car a good data system like the Race Logic HD2 can help your driving. A good friend of mine and I both have the system and we can put our laps side by side. I used to be faster than him at our local track but now he is faster than me (not by much but by enough). We both have 9L extremes, his is a TA 2.0 and mine an ACR-E. I have a slight advantage car wise in the turns because of better aero but he has an advantage on the straights especially the long back straight due to less drag.

In any event, one thing we noticed was that he shifts faster than I do. I forget the amount of time I'm losing on the track because of his quicker shifts but it adds up. I have gone out and tried to shift faster but he is still faster shifting. I don't think my muscles are capable of moving any faster. We can look at braking points (not too much different) and corner entry and exit speeds. In some turns he is quicker and in some I am. We can then work on our slower turns. The system also gives you your optimal lap time by putting together your fastest segments from each lap. This tells you what your time would have been had you driven every turn at the best you can. Of course traffic can be a factor so the integrated video lets you see exactly what is going on as you analyze the data. Highly recommended system.

This is awesome. If you don't mind, what suspension are you both running (spring rates too if you know 'em!)

[Lawineer]

That's a great option. The funny part is that I avoided the ACR's and TA because I knew I would never track them because of future values and super low production numbers. When I was looking to buy, the ACR extreme's were only about $115 - 140k depending on color combo and TA's were in the mid 90's. I said to myself, I'll have no problem tracking a base model. Found a mint one with only 3k on the clock for 70k...and here I am, can't do it. The car is art. I need that Neon to beat around the track. Cheap consumables too...tires/brakes...no special insurance..who cares.
I feel the same way. The only thing that would upset me about crashing the Corvette was my personal safety first, the financial cost second and being made fun of third. There is something about the viper. Even if all it did was require a repainted bumper, I think I’d cry lol.

One other way to think about it is this. How often would a smuck like me get the opportunity to spend a week at the track with some of the best pro drivers? Most of these people are more than willing to share their insights. They are willing to help guys like me any way they can. That is actually pretty cool. So I don't mind that there are pros competing in the One Lap of America. Sure would I like to place better? Absolutely but as the years have gone on and I've gotten older I am in the event for fun, not to win. Our best finish was 15th overall which out of some 80 cars was pretty darn good for us. That was a few years ago. But I do cherish the fact that we were one position ahead of a senior driving instructor that owned a driving school.

Haha just get a pro coach! It’s about $750-$1000 for the day and you can ask them anything you want!

[SRT_BluByU]

Very interesting. I always wondered how the TA2 would stack up against an ACR-E with similar tires and drivers.

The TA cars (1.0 and 2.0) are really the hidden gems right now.

[Gen5snake]

The TA cars (1.0 and 2.0) are really the hidden gems right now.

Agreed. The TA 2.0's are like unicorns. It seems like there are very few. I bid on a Yorange TA 2.0 on BAT and lost by $500 to a guy on here. I think it sold for $85k...I dug in my heels and wouldn't go another dollar....stupid. I personally love Yorange. You either love it or hate it.



.51093

[SRT_BluByU]

Yea.. I like Orange also. I'm looking for a Very Viper Orange 2010 Convertible to add to the Snake Pit!

[ViperGeorge]

This is awesome. If you don't mind, what suspension are you both running (spring rates too if you know 'em!)

I am running stock ACR springs and shocks. He is running stock TA 2.0 springs and shocks. Both of us have 9L Extreme, Nth Moto clutch, trans/diff cooler, and underdrive pulleys. I have Calvo motor mounts, he doesn't. He has an Accusump but I don't.

[ViperGeorge]

Agreed. The TA 2.0's are like unicorns. It seems like there are very few. I bid on a Yorange TA 2.0 on BAT and lost by $500 to a guy on here. I think it sold for $85k...I dug in my heels and wouldn't go another dollar....stupid. I personally love Yorange. You either love it or hate it.



.51093

I believe it is my friend that bought this car and it is the one I spoke about earlier. Luvspeed is his screen name.

[pMak26]

I am running stock ACR springs and shocks. He is running stock TA 2.0 springs and shocks. Both of us have 9L Extreme, Nth Moto clutch, trans/diff cooler, and underdrive pulleys. I have Calvo motor mounts, he doesn't. He has an Accusump but I don't.

Wow that is surprising! I thought the TA springs were too soft for serious track duty. I've only had the one day and on a terrible tire, but the car felt under-sprung. I couldn't imagine the stock TA springs with a serious tire and more power. And I typically like a softly sprung car, but it was too soft to me. Granted I do have a little more aero on the car vs a normal TA2.0 - a few track undulations had the diffuser strakes scraping the deck. I did my best to stay off the curbs because of that. More spring should fix this.

Appreciate the input!

[Lawineer]

I like the TA wing a lot better than the ACR, cosmetically.

[13COBRA]

I like the TA wing a lot better than the ACR, cosmetically.

Nah. Bigger the better :)

[Lawineer]

Nah. Bigger the better :)

With the how busy the rest of the ACR is (splitter, support rods, canards, etc), it works. I'm not sure it looks better without all that stuff.

[13COBRA]

With the how busy the rest of the ACR is (splitter, support rods, canards, etc), it works. I'm not sure it looks better without all that stuff.

I agree.

I miss my Gen IV ACR. A lot of good times with that. I'm trying to narrow down another fun street car at the moment.

51094

[Pappy]

I have to chuckle a little when a discussion about tracking evolves into a discussion on cosmetics. Damaged or altered cosmetics can turn into a reason to not track your Viper, and for some it has. If you don't mind obnoxiously big wings, rubber marks on the paint, chipped windshields, and a couple of holes burnt in the inside fender liners from almost too big tires, then you are a track rat. With that said, I have pretty much retired my ACR, more for its irreplaceability than its dollar value. Its the last of the rude, crude beasts of our automotive history - a keeper. So, my fix is to baby the Viper and continue building an expensive, dedicated track car with more power, less weight, bigger tires, and no nannies - and with little fear of a brush with a wall. It can be fixed or replaced.

Pappy

[Lawineer]

I have to chuckle a little when a discussion about tracking evolves into a discussion on cosmetics. Damaged or altered cosmetics can turn into a reason to not track your Viper, and for some it has. If you don't mind obnoxiously big wings, rubber marks on the paint, chipped windshields, and a couple of holes burnt in the inside fender liners from almost too big tires, then you are a track rat. With that said, I have pretty much retired my ACR, more for its irreplaceability than its dollar value. Its the last of the rude, crude beasts of our automotive history - a keeper. So, my fix is to baby the Viper and continue building an expensive, dedicated track car with more power, less weight, bigger tires, and no nannies - and with little fear of a brush with a wall. It can be fixed or replaced.

Pappy

I have similar feelings about my Viper. I do want to do a ~350hp track car under 3000lb w/ cage next- probably next season. C5 obviously stands out there. Though if I get a C8Z07 any time soon, I'll probably keep running the BRZ and run the Z07 for a fun change. Nothing better than OEM stock reliability + warranty + a new tahoe for a loaner!

[Arizona Vipers]

Plus they're really really consistent, don't crash and even when they do something like drop a tire or two, they recover very well. They also find ways around people MUCH better than us mere mortals. In short, aside from their individual lap times being faster, their "session" lap times are even more of an advantage.

I think the problem comes in defining a pro driver and enforcing it. I agree though. It's really discouraged me from making a run at WRL with my buddies. Not only is that one less driver to split costs, it's also one person we have to pay. a $25k season turned into a $40k season.

Pro to me means if he is being paid. If you're good enough to be paid to drive, then your fast as hell.

[jrubin80]

[QUOTE=Haha just get a pro coach! It’s about $750-$1000 for the day and you can ask them anything you want![/QUOTE]. I agree. Hiring a coach and being able to sit right seat helped me big time. And different coaches excel in different ways. You can have multiple coaches all show you different lines for different situations. Then add them all to your mental toolbox.

[Arizona Vipers]

I have similar feelings about my Viper. I do want to do a ~350hp track car under 3000lb w/ cage next- probably next season. C5 obviously stands out there. Though if I get a C8Z07 any time soon, I'll probably keep running the BRZ and run the Z07 for a fun change. Nothing better than OEM stock reliability + warranty + a new tahoe for a loaner!

C5 will have braking issues "icing" on anything stickier than an R7, then you have to go the Bosch/Motec route. My buddy has a BADASS built C5 if you're interested. It's caged, 600whp, I bet you could get it cheap he just tracks his Viper now this car just sits there. Everything is pretty much new.

[Lawineer]

Pro to me means if he is being paid. If you're good enough to be paid to drive, then your fast as hell.
Well, that for sure. Good luck enforcing that though. They'll just pay them and not tell the race series.
I would love a race series with true amateurs where pro drivers (however it is defined) simply cannot race. The motorcycle organization here (CMRA) does a good job of promoting people to expert and not letting them race against true W2W novices.


C5 will have braking issues "icing" on anything stickier than an R7, then you have to go the Bosch/Motec route. My buddy has a BADASS built C5 if you're interested. It's caged, 600whp, I bet you could get it cheap he just tracks his Viper now this car just sits there. Everything is pretty much new.

I'm probably more interested in something with about half that power, but it's easy to go down in power.
I've heard that about C5s though. C6 is probably a better bet.
I really miss my C7GS on the track. Easiest car to drive I've ever come across.

[PkB2014]

I have to chuckle a little when a discussion about tracking evolves into a discussion on cosmetics. Damaged or altered cosmetics can turn into a reason to not track your Viper, and for some it has. If you don't mind obnoxiously big wings, rubber marks on the paint, chipped windshields, and a couple of holes burnt in the inside fender liners from almost too big tires, then you are a track rat. With that said, I have pretty much retired my ACR, more for its irreplaceability than its dollar value. Its the last of the rude, crude beasts of our automotive history - a keeper. So, my fix is to baby the Viper and continue building an expensive, dedicated track car with more power, less weight, bigger tires, and no nannies - and with little fear of a brush with a wall. It can be fixed or replaced.

Pappy

for sure the irreplaceability is the biggest thing



I really miss my C7GS on the track. Easiest car to drive I've ever come across.

I've been looking at the C7GS for a track car. probably the best/easiest route

[ViperPete]

I've tracked my Gen V a bunch of times. About a hundred runs down the 1/2 mile and 3 track days. Once at Homestead and twice at Carolina Motorsports park. The car is an absolute joy to drive. It feels practically telepathic, knowing the road and what I want it to do. Only mods I have are headers and a tune, Stoptech Track day pads fresh brake fluid and regular blank rotors. I have since got a set of Hoosier A7 slicks and now I need a harness. I can only handle about 12-15 minute sessions because I literally can't hold onto the steering wheel anymore. The car just throws my body around otherwise. Maxxed out the G meter in the car of 1.5G+. I honestly wonder what it's pulling around corners. I think my car is too pretty to track and would like another Viper for track duty only. I'd wrap it in some cool racy scheme, gut the interior, install a cage etc, if I was going to get really committed to track days. Otherwise it's a very expensive hobby. Track insurance alone is around $900 per day.

I can drive my car no where near its limits. Every time I get in the car i get better but it's just an animal.

https://youtu.be/6GRfDIZAG40

<iframe width="1280" height="720" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/6GRfDIZAG40" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

That was the last track day. Felt really awesome overtaking the TA. His car is stock other than tires. I didn't realize how much headers/tune made on the straights when I'd reel him in.

recorded with my iphone and a windshield mount. Video/audio came out amazing I think. Windows down, hardly any wind noise. Very impressed.

[Arizona Vipers]

. I agree. Hiring a coach and being able to sit right seat helped me big time. And different coaches excel in different ways. You can have multiple coaches all show you different lines for different situations. Then add them all to your mental toolbox.

No thanks, too much like homework, not fun for me. I just enjoy driving, nothing else. No coach, no looking at data. It really isn't rocket science, seat time is better than anything.

[Arizona Vipers]

Well, that for sure. Good luck enforcing that though. They'll just pay them and not tell the race series.
I would love a race series with true amateurs where pro drivers (however it is defined) simply cannot race. The motorcycle organization here (CMRA) does a good job of promoting people to expert and not letting them race against true W2W novices.



I'm probably more interested in something with about half that power, but it's easy to go down in power.
I've heard that about C5s though. C6 is probably a better bet.
I really miss my C7GS on the track. Easiest car to drive I've ever come across.

Yeah it's ALL C5's. Street tires it'll never happen. R7's it may happen a couple times a year. Once you move on to A7's, the car will go into icing mode after most high speed braking area and you'll go off track.

[Arizona Vipers]

[QUOTE=RedTanRT/10;456678]Yeah, except for his spindles!!! AZ, he broke a spindle at Buttowillow, 2nd session Saturday. Spun across the track and I swerved to miss it. In a stoke of really bad luck, it was spinning across the track and it went under my car behind the front passenger wheel and the side sill. Happened right at the bus stop, taped the brake, turn in left then went sideways on my oil 50 yards into the dirt! Broke my oil pan in 3 places, bellhousing cover and 5 holes in the CF undertray.

Hadn't seen Rich in maybe 10 years, hope its 20 more till I see him again!!!!

Ouch. Hate to hear that. Any internal damage to the motor?

Pappy

Oh yeah I remember you telling me about that, I forgot that was Ritch lol

[Arizona Vipers]

I've done it once, for about 7 laps.
I'm well aware I'm not a 700hp driver (let alone 700hp + big aero for grip), so I didn't push it. Also, I can afford to wreck the BRZ. It would be a very bad day, but I'd buy another race car of similar cost within a few months. Plus, if the BRZ gets dings or scratches from going off, I doubt I'd notice, let alone care. I can't say the same about the Viper.


I will drive the BRZ on edge, lap after lap, and flog it mercilessly like it's a rented mule. I develop skill much faster and have more fun. I dont enjoy the Viper as much because I can't drive it to my 100%.

Plus I bet the Viper is around $1000/hr to run between powertrain wear and tear, fluids, fuel, brakes and tires. BRZ is like $125. Maybe.

With that said, the power and endless grip on the Viper was intoxicating.


I just did the math on diesel cost for my upcoming Road Atlanta trip and it's going to be about $4000 just in diesel. That's nuts. That's more than tires, brakes, fuel, fluids, entry fees for the weekend combined :(

[13COBRA]

I just did the math on diesel cost for my upcoming Road Atlanta trip and it's going to be about $4000 just in diesel. That's nuts. That's more than tires, brakes, fuel, fluids, entry fees for the weekend combined :(

Yeah, that's insane.

[PkB2014]

I just did the math on diesel cost for my upcoming Road Atlanta trip and it's going to be about $4000 just in diesel. That's nuts. That's more than tires, brakes, fuel, fluids, entry fees for the weekend combined :(

Jesus man!!! And I just "invested" in a 2500 Duramax. I'll just close my eyes at the pump.

[13COBRA]

No thanks, too much like homework, not fun for me. I just enjoy driving, nothing else. No coach, no looking at data. It really isn't rocket science, seat time is better than anything.

Do you think if you could pick up a second or something per track, you'd go for some coaching?

[GTS Dean]

I just did the math on diesel cost for my upcoming Road Atlanta trip and it's going to be about $4000 just in diesel. That's nuts. That's more than booze, strippers and blow for the weekend combined :( fixed it for you...

RACECAR - the world's most expensive and addictive drug. And it's legal.

[Bill Pemberton]

All this Amateur and Professional talk has me confused. I explain that I don't drive my Viper on the track anymore because I won $250 from SCCA running Pro Spec Miata. Heh, I don't want to get banned at a race jest cuz I am a Pro, hehe!

[ViperGeorge]

All this Amateur and Professional talk has me confused. I explain that I don't drive my Viper on the track anymore because I won $250 from SCCA running Pro Spec Miata. Heh, I don't want to get banned at a race jest cuz I am a Pro, hehe!

Bill, I think you earning $250 from the SCCA is a little different than someone that makes their living racing. There are literally pro drivers on One Lap, drivers that make their living racing. One person won his class in the 24 hours of Daytona and then won the One Lap 5 times overall. As I've said I don't really have an issue running in One Lap with pro drivers. I'm in it for fun but there are other more competitive amateurs that would be upset about that though. I get it.

[Pappy]

I've seen pro drivers become owner-drivers and they often are not as fast after the transition. There is a lot to be said about pushing someone else's car to the absolute limit, especially if you have no skin in the game as far as operating and repair costs are concerned. Consider the driver who ran the 7:01 in the ACR at Nürburgring. His concerns were probably a fast time and survival. I can hear him now - "Wrecked the car on the 2nd lap, but damn I had a fast time on the first lap." LOL

[Bill Pemberton]

Gee George, you have known me for years, and I was simply bleeding with sarcasm, I obviously failed my old man's attempt at humor! Now taking a nap in the middle of the afternoon, I am getting to be a Pro at that.

[Lawineer]

No thanks, too much like homework, not fun for me. I just enjoy driving, nothing else. No coach, no looking at data. It really isn't rocket science, seat time is better than anything.

I enjoyed my time with coaches. It really helps pick up the learning curve.

[13COBRA]

I've seen pro drivers become owner-drivers and they often are not as fast after the transition. There is a lot to be said about pushing someone else's car to the absolute limit, especially if you have no skin in the game as far as operating and repair costs are concerned. Consider the driver who ran the 7:01 in the ACR at Nürburgring. His concerns were probably a fast time and survival. I can hear him now - "Wrecked the car on the 2nd lap, but damn I had a fast time on the first lap." LOL

100% accurate statement.

[blackbeast99]

I enjoy tracking my ACR (the pure reason I purchased it). I also coach/instruct for various HPDE groups, and enjoy it just as much (usually haha). I've seen a great mix of drivers, tracks, cars, and talent.

The most surprising students have often been my younger students, but more often than not, motorcycle riders or racers; they seem to have an overall better understanding of momentum, weight transfer, and smooth throttle application with minimal corrections the first few laps.

I'm not in the sport for "lap times", though I do run very fast laps. I get more requests for ride-alongs in the viper than I do in any of my other cars I track/have tracked. People are amazed at the grip, speed, and that the factory Kumho's grip as well as they do. I took out a friend in my car and he thought I had slicks on my car lol...also an ACR owner that does indeed drive on slicks.

51118

51119

[13COBRA]

I enjoy tracking my ACR (the pure reason I purchased it). I also coach/instruct for various HPDE groups, and enjoy it just as much (usually haha). I've seen a great mix of drivers, tracks, cars, and talent.

The most surprising students have often been my younger students, but more often than not, motorcycle riders or racers; they seem to have an overall better understanding of momentum, weight transfer, and smooth throttle application with minimal corrections the first few laps.

I'm not in the sport for "lap times", though I do run very fast laps. I get more requests for ride-alongs in the viper than I do in any of my other cars I track/have tracked. People are amazed at the grip, speed, and that the factory Kumho's grip as well as they do. I took out a friend in my car and he thought I had slicks on my car lol...also an ACR owner that does indeed drive on slicks.

51118

51119

What is your ride height adjusted to? That second picture looks incredibly low.

[blackbeast99]

What is your ride height adjusted to? That second picture looks incredibly low.

That's just a ton of cornering compression and G I suppose during the photo. It's at the SRT spec'd track ride height with 1.5in rake. 4.0 front, 5.5 rear (also SRT recommended compression/rebound settings).

[13COBRA]

That's just a ton of cornering compression and G I suppose during the photo. It's at the SRT spec'd track ride height with 1.5in rake. 4.0 front, 5.5 rear (also SRT recommended compression/rebound settings).

That's crazy haha Looks like you're at 2/3.5.

[blackbeast99]

That's crazy haha Looks like you're at 2/3.5.

It does...haha. Those were taken the same weekend too! Barber is a fun track, but Road Atlanta is my home track.

[ViperGeorge]

Gee George, you have known me for years, and I was simply bleeding with sarcasm, I obviously failed my old man's attempt at humor! Now taking a nap in the middle of the afternoon, I am getting to be a Pro at that.

Bill you're not old! You simply have high mileage.

[TheWessss]

speaking of tracking, I just finished putting together my next adventure. TheViperShowdown at Indianapolis is going to be a rare opportunity to get on the road course and it just happens to coincide with a Viper Days reunion, WINNING!!! Anyway here is the rest of my schedule if anyone is around and wants to join:
10/1-10/2 NCM (yes I want to see the sink hole and take a picture of the ACR in front of the corvette museum)
10/2-10/3 VIR
10/7-10/8 Mid-Ohio
10/9 Indianapolis
10/12 PITT
10/14 Rockingham

[Arizona Vipers]

Do you think if you could pick up a second or something per track, you'd go for some coaching?

No. I'm sure I could pick up 3-4 with coaching, data and all that. I'd rather be 2nd or 3rd with no homework, then 1st with homework hehe.

[Arizona Vipers]

That's just a ton of cornering compression and G I suppose during the photo. It's at the SRT spec'd track ride height with 1.5in rake. 4.0 front, 5.5 rear (also SRT recommended compression/rebound settings).

The rear looks low too, how fast do you think you were going in that 2nd pic?

[13COBRA]

No. I'm sure I could pick up 3-4 with coaching, data and all that. I'd rather be 2nd or 3rd with no homework, then 1st with homework hehe.


Haha fair enough!

[blackbeast99]

The rear looks low too, how fast do you think you were going in that 2nd pic?

I couldn't tell ya, it was some time ago. Probably hammering down through an off-camber turn.

After setting my car up per the ACR supplement, corner balancing and alignment, it hasn't been touched other than confirming everything is still set as we wanted it. With the compression and speed, I've seen several similar pictures. Probably wouldn't look as extreme (pun intended) with stiffer suspension settings.

BTW - let me know when you'll be at RA...I'll swing by again!

[blackbeast99]

speaking of tracking, I just finished putting together my next adventure. TheViperShowdown at Indianapolis is going to be a rare opportunity to get on the road course and it just happens to coincide with a Viper Days reunion, WINNING!!! Anyway here is the rest of my schedule if anyone is around and wants to join:
10/1-10/2 NCM (yes I want to see the sink hole and take a picture of the ACR in front of the corvette museum)
10/2-10/3 VIR
10/7-10/8 Mid-Ohio
10/9 Indianapolis
10/12 PITT
10/14 Rockingham

All great tracks! You should add Road Atlanta one day if you haven't driven it yet!

[Lawineer]

That's crazy haha Looks like you're at 2/3.5.

It's also a lot of downforce and grip. Between the downforce and lateral g's, it wouldn't surprise me one bit if there was an extra 25000+ lbs on the outside.

Think of it this way, "normal" sports cars can lift an inside tire, meaning there is negative weight on it. The weight has to go somewhere....

[13COBRA]

It's also a lot of downforce and grip. Between the downforce and lateral g's, it wouldn't surprise me one bit if there was an extra 25000+ lbs on the outside.

Think of it this way, "normal" sports cars can lift an inside tire, meaning there is negative weight on it. The weight has to go somewhere....

Yeah, I understand that. Before he replied, I thought it was on flat ground not going around a corner.

[Lawineer]

No. I'm sure I could pick up 3-4 with coaching, data and all that. I'd rather be 2nd or 3rd with no homework, then 1st with homework hehe.

Lol get a better coach!!!!

[finalleaf]

Where do you guys generally order your brake pads from? I'm thinking of going carbotech XP12 / XP10 combo, but also wondering if other options like pagids or st45/43 would work just as well

[ViperGeorge]

Where do you guys generally order your brake pads from? I'm thinking of going carbotech XP12 / XP10 combo, but also wondering if other options like pagids or st45/43 would work just as well

Raybestos ST45/ST43s are the way to go. Low dust, low noise, easier on rotors, and they work at ambient temp up to crazy high temps. Hit the brakes and it is like throwing out a boat anchor. I actually leave them on year round, not just on track. I have tried pretty much every pad available, Carbotech, SBS, Brakeman, etc. Raybestos are the best.

[blackbeast99]

Raybestos ST45/ST43s are the way to go. Low dust, low noise, easier on rotors, and they work at ambient temp up to crazy high temps. Hit the brakes and it is like throwing out a boat anchor. I actually leave them on year round, not just on track. I have tried pretty much every pad available, Carbotech, SBS, Brakeman, etc. Raybestos are the best.

The problem is that they are extremely hard to find now...I've been looking for a couple of weeks. There are other options since our pad design is shared amongst many other cars.

[Bill Pemberton]

Call Danny Puskar at G-Loc and I am sure he can help you out. I do recommend you get the pads pre-bedded and we used Danny often for pads when I was at Woodhouse Dodge.

[pMak26]

Raybestos ST45/ST43s are the way to go. Low dust, low noise, easier on rotors, and they work at ambient temp up to crazy high temps. Hit the brakes and it is like throwing out a boat anchor. I actually leave them on year round, not just on track. I have tried pretty much every pad available, Carbotech, SBS, Brakeman, etc. Raybestos are the best.

I agree the Raybestos pads are tops. But I'm also on G-loc pads now, along with my M3 track car (exact same front brakes as the viper actually) due to availability.

Only the Miata has Raybestos pads in it and it's way, way overkill! I can get 3 Lemons races out of the set!

[Lawineer]

Raybestos ST45/ST43s are the way to go. Low dust, low noise, easier on rotors, and they work at ambient temp up to crazy high temps. Hit the brakes and it is like throwing out a boat anchor. I actually leave them on year round, not just on track. I have tried pretty much every pad available, Carbotech, SBS, Brakeman, etc. Raybestos are the best.

They say they're only good till about 1200 degrees, which isn't very good for a a race pad, especially for our cars. That's why I stayed away.


I ran the XP12s and they were pretty good, but they were outgassing hard on my Corsas and no splitter or wing.

[finalleaf]

I agree the Raybestos pads are tops. But I'm also on G-loc pads now, along with my M3 track car (exact same front brakes as the viper actually) due to availability.

Only the Miata has Raybestos pads in it and it's way, way overkill! I can get 3 Lemons races out of the set!

G-locs are same compound as carbotechs right? they squeal quite a bit on the street?

[Arizona Vipers]

All great tracks! You should add Road Atlanta one day if you haven't driven it yet!

Road Atlanta is the King IMO! I did 8 sessions or so and still never had the balls to stay on the throttle through the kink. Hopefully I will next month!

[Lawineer]

My carbotechs do not, at all.

My Ferodos are miserable - even on the track.

[blackbeast99]

Road Atlanta is the King IMO! I did 8 sessions or so and still never had the balls to stay on the throttle through the kink. Hopefully I will next month!

Oh I remember haha...I'll come up again and hang for a bit. Stay flat, stay flat, stay flat! LOL

[blackbeast99]

Call Danny Puskar at G-Loc and I am sure he can help you out. I do recommend you get the pads pre-bedded and we used Danny often for pads when I was at Woodhouse Dodge.
Will do, thank you for the insight. I've put together a small sheet of part numbers from a few different manufacturers so I know almost every pad shape that "should" work - I just need someone to add the compound to the backing plate :D


They say they're only good till about 1200 degrees, which isn't very good for a a race pad, especially for our cars. That's why I stayed away.


I ran the XP12s and they were pretty good, but they were outgassing hard on my Corsas and no splitter or wing.

I've used the ST47/ST45/ST43 and all seem pretty good to me (I run quick sessions of 10-15 mins max) so it works for me on the ACR. I ran carbotech on my Z06 XP12/XP10 and liked them as well. I'm more of a DE guy though...no "racing".

[finalleaf]

Is there a central place where you guys place your orders? or just wherever they're available

[ViperGeorge]

They say they're only good till about 1200 degrees, which isn't very good for a a race pad, especially for our cars. That's why I stayed away.


I ran the XP12s and they were pretty good, but they were outgassing hard on my Corsas and no splitter or wing.

You should speak with Porterfield-brakes (www.porterfield-brakes.com, 949-548-4470). Any of the ladies that answer the phone will likely have forgotten more about brake pads than we will ever know. Upper temp range of the ST45 is 1500 although they recommend to keep them at 1200. They say this is consistent with the vast majority of other makes of pads. They say if you are exceeding 1200 to 1500 then you really need to consider auxiliary cooling (brake fans, etc.). They say if you are exceeding this temp you are running the risk of exploding a rotor. This temp should not be reached unless the car is very heavy.

Personally I have never had the ST45/ST43 combo go away even after 30 minutes on track. In fact if you are running longer than about 25 minutes SRT recommends a diff cooler (which I have).

[ViperNC]

I've tracked my Gen V a bunch of times. About a hundred runs down the 1/2 mile and 3 track days. Once at Homestead and twice at Carolina Motorsports park...... I can drive my car no where near its limits. Every time I get in the car i get better but it's just an animal.

https://youtu.be/6GRfDIZAG40

<iframe width="1280" height="720" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/6GRfDIZAG40" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

That was the last track day. Felt really awesome overtaking the TA. His car is stock other than tires. I didn't realize how much headers/tune made on the straights when I'd reel him in.

recorded with my iphone and a windshield mount. Video/audio came out amazing I think. Windows down, hardly any wind noise. Very impressed.

CMP! My home track. Curious to hear your thoughts about the fresh pavement and what lap times you were able to achieve? A couple of quick tips that will easily help you find a few seconds:

1. Don't be afraid of the kink. You can roll off the throttle, but no need to touch the brakes. Just ease off a bit, roll through the apex and track out left to maintain momentum and you'll pick up 2-3 seconds right there.

2. Turns 12 & 13 - Everyone tends to try to hold that tight to the right side of the track after turn 12 when in actuality the faster line is to stay out to the left longer which allows you to get back on the throttle quicker and more progressively/predictably. It also straightens up turn 13 a bit for the run down to 14. Also will pick up a second or more.

Enjoyed your video. The orange Viper in front of you looks familiar.... Ping me if you plan to come back to CMP and I'll join you for a track event.

[Lawineer]

You should speak with Porterfield-brakes (www.porterfield-brakes.com, 949-548-4470). Any of the ladies that answer the phone will likely have forgotten more about brake pads than we will ever know. Upper temp range of the ST45 is 1500 although they recommend to keep them at 1200. They say this is consistent with the vast majority of other makes of pads. They say if you are exceeding 1200 to 1500 then you really need to consider auxiliary cooling (brake fans, etc.). They say if you are exceeding this temp you are running the risk of exploding a rotor. This temp should not be reached unless the car is very heavy.

Personally I have never had the ST45/ST43 combo go away even after 30 minutes on track. In fact if you are running longer than about 25 minutes SRT recommends a diff cooler (which I have).

I just looked up their temp range and picked carbotech when I saw they drop off around 1200. I also used them in the past on other cars and I think they were cheaper too. Tracks here (ECR and COTA) are pretty tough on brakes. ECR has 6 hard braking zones. COTA is COTA.


I had about 7 laps over two sessions just to take the car out. I was going to the track anyway. Ran in the morning, let it cool and ran it after lunch for a few laps. I figured it wasn't really well sorted from the factory for a halfway to decent driver to run 7 x 30 minute session in stock form (very very few cars are). It brings me as much happiness to see it in the garage as it does to track it :)

[ViperGeorge]

My carbotechs do not, at all.

My Ferodos are miserable - even on the track.

Are you running the XP12/XP10 Carbotechs then? You mentioned the XP12s were outgassing a lot did you stick with them? Carbotech says the XP12s are a bit rougher on rotors. I wonder how they compare to the Raybestos ST45s. The ST45s are pretty easy on rotors.

[Lawineer]

Are you running the XP12/XP10 Carbotechs then? You mentioned the XP12s were outgassing a lot did you stick with them? Carbotech says the XP12s are a bit rougher on rotors. I wonder how they compare to the Raybestos ST45s. The ST45s are pretty easy on rotors.

I just got them to track the car once. I did ~7 laps just to scratch the itch and hopped back in the BRZ.

They were definitely smelling pretty bad and had white dust, and I was only running a diffuser for aero (and being very low) on Corsas. The track isn't easy on brakes and I'm pretty hard/aggressive on brakes, TBF. You can look up Eagles Canyon. 6 hard braking zones in 2.5 miles and two are very downhill.

The car just needs bigger brakes. Small 4 piston calipers on relatively small rotors just isn't going to cut it for a car with that much power, aero, grip, etc. I was worried about boiling SRF with the pad and rotor being so small. I was probably fine, but I've put a brake pedal to the floor before. It's not fun.

[pMak26]

I wonder if there is a carbon rotor that can fit on the TA/trackpack rotor hat and some carbon pads to fit in those 4pot calipers...

[Lawineer]

CCB are expensive AF to run (and buy the first time). Just upgrade to a BBC. I thought the TA had bigger 6 pot calipers?
Didn't someone just post a how-to ?

[ViperGeorge]

CCB are expensive AF to run (and buy the first time). Just upgrade to a BBC. I thought the TA had bigger 6 pot calipers?
Didn't someone just post a how-to ?

No the TA had 4 piston calipers, same as a stock non-CCB Viper. The rotors had smaller hats which gave them a larger anulus (swept area). This is why they can use the R1001 pad which is deeper.

[SRT_BluByU]

Best stock steel brake config for Viper.

[Lawineer]

No the TA had 4 piston calipers, same as a stock non-CCB Viper. The rotors had smaller hats which gave them a larger anulus (swept area). This is why they can use the R1001 pad which is deeper.

You're right. They were ACR calipers with steel rotors. This is the upgrade I plan on doing. Why, since I don't track it, I dont know, but it bothers me that it has such small brakes!

https://driveviper.com/forums/threads/25645-ACR-calipers-w-steel-rotor-upgrade-on-my-13-GTS

[ViperGeorge]

You're right. They were ACR calipers with steel rotors. This is the upgrade I plan on doing. Why, since I don't track it, I dont know, but it bothers me that it has such small brakes!

https://driveviper.com/forums/threads/25645-ACR-calipers-w-steel-rotor-upgrade-on-my-13-GTS

Not sure I understand your post. I'm probably misreading it. In any event TAs did not have ACR calipers they had standard Viper 4 piston calipers with steel rotors with a larger anulus. ACRs had either TA brakes (like mine) or Carbon Ceramic Brakes with 6 piston front calipers and carbon rotors. Most ACRs I believe came with CCBs. The ACR/TA was ordered with steel brakes because they were intended for track use where the cost of replacement matters.

[Arizona Vipers]

Not sure I understand your post. I'm probably misreading it. In any event TAs did not have ACR calipers they had standard Viper 4 piston calipers with steel rotors with a larger anulus. ACRs had either TA brakes (like mine) or Carbon Ceramic Brakes with 6 piston front calipers and carbon rotors. Most ACRs I believe came with CCBs. The ACR/TA was ordered with steel brakes because they were intended for track use where the cost of replacement matters.

That makes sense since the TA's were being made years before the ACR

[Arizona Vipers]

Just FYI for anyone reading this thread, before I upgraded to the ACR CCB's I ran the factory Stop Tech's (cam with the track pack cars in 2013) and they were awesome, never faded, even on slicks.
s

[nwa_viper]

Just FYI for anyone reading this thread, before I upgraded to the ACR CCB's I ran the factory Stop Tech's (cam with the track pack cars in 2013) and they were awesome, never faded, even on slicks.
s

But which pads did you prefer?

[Lawineer]

Not sure I understand your post. I'm probably misreading it. In any event TAs did not have ACR calipers they had standard Viper 4 piston calipers with steel rotors with a larger anulus. ACRs had either TA brakes (like mine) or Carbon Ceramic Brakes with 6 piston front calipers and carbon rotors. Most ACRs I believe came with CCBs. The ACR/TA was ordered with steel brakes because they were intended for track use where the cost of replacement matters.

The upgrade in the link is ACR CCB calipers with iron rotors substituted in.

[Arizona Vipers]

But which pads did you prefer?

I ran stock pads

[blackbeast99]

The upgrade in the link is ACR CCB calipers with iron rotors substituted in.

My car is an ACR/CCB car, but also converted to Girodisc.


Is there a central place where you guys place your orders? or just wherever they're available

Wherever they can be found/made that also clears the rotor hat if you have the two-piece setup.
The front pad shape is pretty common for a few cars (C7 Z06 with iron rotors)...and the rear pads are pretty common for the front pads of other cars (C7 Stingray front pad shape, are our rear pad shape)

You have to do a bit of cross referencing, but they are out there.

[finalleaf]

Wherever they can be found/made that also clears the rotor hat if you have the two-piece setup.
The front pad shape is pretty common for a few cars (C7 Z06 with iron rotors)...and the rear pads are pretty common for the front pads of other cars (C7 Stingray front pad shape, are our rear pad shape)

You have to do a bit of cross referencing, but they are out there.

I'm a bit confused, everywhere I've seen shows that the front pads and rear pads for the gen v non TA/ACR viper are the same part

[blackbeast99]

I'm a bit confused, everywhere I've seen shows that the front pads and rear pads for the gen v non TA/ACR viper are the same part
My apologies. I’m only speaking of the Gen V ACR-E with CCBs that are now converted to iron/steel rotors (girodisc). 6 piston front, 4 piston rear.

[ViperSRT]

The ACR/TA was ordered with steel brakes because they were intended for track use where the cost of replacement matters.

Think it was more that with the TA interior it was cost prohibitive to add the CCB back on.

[ViperGeorge]

Think it was more that with the TA interior it was cost prohibitive to add the CCB back on.

Nope, incorrect. Bill Pemberton envisioned the ACR/TA as a car for track rats at a reasonable price point. He knew that the replacement cost of CCB pads and rotors would get out of hand on a car that turns a ton of laps on the track. Mark Jorgensen told me when I first bought the ACR/TA that he knew of several ACR owners that had gone through multiple brake pad sets and rotors in one season. Maybe they were especially hard on brakes but replacing CCB pads and rotors gets crazy expensive real quick. Even Porsche owners that bought cars with CCBs often change them for steel if they plan to track their cars. In fact, there are plenty of threads on here about ACR owners changing to steel.

The TA interior, the color, the decals, were a tribute to the 2014 orange TA.

[Racingswh]

Bill Pemberton envisioned the ACR/TA as a car for track rats at a reasonable price point.

The TA interior, the color, the decals, were a tribute to the 2014 orange TA.

It looks like your car on an older episode of Roadkill when they ran the One Lap with a 1969 Firebird. Your car made a couple of cameo's by the looks of it. Did you know that?

[ViperGeorge]

It looks like your car on an older episode of Roadkill when they ran the One Lap with a 1969 Firebird. Your car made a couple of cameo's by the looks of it. Did you know that?

I did not know that. Found it though. Thanks.

[TheWessss]

All great tracks! You should add Road Atlanta one day if you haven't driven it yet!

Beast, RA is amazing have done a few days there over the years (also loved Barber & AMP all in your area). Recently, finished a 2 day event at RA. Started to finally feel like I was getting a feel/vibe for that course.

[Arizona Vipers]

Beast, RA is amazing have done a few days there over the years (also loved Barber & AMP all in your area). Recently, finished a 2 day event at RA. Started to finally feel like I was getting a feel/vibe for that course.

Road Atlanta is the best and most terrifying track I've ever done. I'm going back in a few weeks and have literally lost sleep thinking about staying full throttle through 9. :eek:

[ViperGeorge]

Road Atlanta is the best and most terrifying track I've ever done. I'm going back in a few weeks and have literally lost sleep thinking about staying full throttle through 9. :eek:

Hmm, I was always scared of staying at full throttle down the hill and through the right hand turn 12. You're supposed to be able to do it but I have to admit I've only managed it once or twice. I did it once in the Panoz car I used in the 3 day racing school I took there in 2001 and once or so in my 2000 Camaro. There is a cement wall on the left as you go through turn 12 and onto the front straight. Pretty intimidating. Braking into 10 downhill can also be exciting give how fast you are going.

Turn 7 often catches people out. They either go too fast (it is a slow turn) or they turn in early. Then they put two wheels off at the exit and try to correct. The correction often throws them into the inside wall. On One Lap, I think in the early 2000s, we were there. I knew the track really well after the racing school. Another friend was there for the first time and I tried to get him to watch my in car videos, he didn't. I then warned him about turn 7. As it turns out he went out right in front of me and in less than a lap I was on his tail heading into 7. I saw the line he was taking and thought "this is going to get ugly" so I backed off. He went off track left, tried to correct it, and then shot across the track. Lucky for him he didn't hit the inside wall and lucky for me I backed off or I would have t-boned him as he came across the track.

[blackbeast99]

Beast, RA is amazing have done a few days there over the years (also loved Barber & AMP all in your area). Recently, finished a 2 day event at RA. Started to finally feel like I was getting a feel/vibe for that course.

I must've barely missed you! I instruct with a few HPDE groups, and also do a few private member days...I'm sure I'll run into you at some point!


Road Atlanta is the best and most terrifying track I've ever done. I'm going back in a few weeks and have literally lost sleep thinking about staying full throttle through 9. :eek:

Haha, we will see if you do it this time :) I'm going to try to come up again to support!


Hmm, I was always scared of staying at full throttle down the hill and through the right hand turn 12. You're supposed to be able to do it but I have to admit I've only managed it once or twice. I did it once in the Panoz car I used in the 3 day racing school I took there in 2001 and once or so in my 2000 Camaro. There is a cement wall on the left as you go through turn 12 and onto the front straight. Pretty intimidating. Braking into 10 downhill can also be exciting give how fast you are going.

Turn 7 often catches people out. They either go too fast (it is a slow turn) or they turn in early. Then they put two wheels off at the exit and try to correct. The correction often throws them into the inside wall. On One Lap, I think in the early 2000s, we were there. I knew the track really well after the racing school. Another friend was there for the first time and I tried to get him to watch my in car videos, he didn't. I then warned him about turn 7. As it turns out he went out right in front of me and in less than a lap I was on his tail heading into 7. I saw the line he was taking and thought "this is going to get ugly" so I backed off. He went off track left, tried to correct it, and then shot across the track. Lucky for him he didn't hit the inside wall and lucky for me I backed off or I would have t-boned him as he came across the track.

You nailed it...and now there is a new repair/concrete patch on your way to the apex of T12 - which is a friction change and upsets some cars a good bit.

T7 is good for ~45mph in most cars/drivers if you the late apex. Early apex, and you're sure to run out of track. I can't count how many cars I've seen have unfortunate situations there. I'm full throttle from trackout to the braking zone for T10...and just about full throttle through T12 - maintenance throttle for turn in, full throttle again from the apex and trackout.

[finalleaf]

Hey y'all, question about "race" and "street" suspension when tracking. Do you guys all put it to race? I've had experience in other cars where the stiffest setting actually wasn't that great to drive on unless the track is PERFECTLY paved. I'm a little concerned that on stiffest mode the small bumps on the track could upset the car

[ViperGeorge]

Hey y'all, question about "race" and "street" suspension when tracking. Do you guys all put it to race? I've had experience in other cars where the stiffest setting actually wasn't that great to drive on unless the track is PERFECTLY paved. I'm a little concerned that on stiffest mode the small bumps on the track could upset the car

I did the SRT Viper driving experience at Las Vegas International. We did some autocrossing in Gen 5s. We tried both race and street settings and I was faster in street mode. Instructor went out to test my assertion and came back and said "You were right, I was faster in street mode too." The Autocross track was very smooth. Never tried it on a big track as I track an ACR which doesn't have that choice.

[13COBRA]

Hey y'all, question about "race" and "street" suspension when tracking. Do you guys all put it to race? I've had experience in other cars where the stiffest setting actually wasn't that great to drive on unless the track is PERFECTLY paved. I'm a little concerned that on stiffest mode the small bumps on the track could upset the car

Only one way to find out. haha

[finalleaf]

Only one way to find out. haha

fo sho, going to shake it down at Laguna Seca in July, hopefully the cup2 connects arrive so I'll give them a try and maybe give you guys some feedback/review about them

[Lawineer]

Yeah, I've found that too. When I did the Corvette advanced driving school at spring mountain, the lead instructor said he thinks the Z06 suspension is better than the Z07 and the Z07 is too stiff. They actually offered an update a few years in that softened up the mag ride programing. And spring mountain is pretty smooth.

When I drove super smooth tracks (COTA in their first year of HPDE and a brand new, fresh paved local track) I stiffened the heck out of my dampers via DSC and it was good, but it was also much more difficult to drive.

However, with the ACR, stiffer may be better. Body roll kills aero.


With that said, it's not that big of a deal. My DSC overheated and failed on a +105 degree Texas day and my suspension went full soft. It was sketchy AF, and my times were a lot less consistent, but overall, I probably dropped 0.5 to 0.75 seconds or so. That's the difference between a very good suspension and literally FULL SOFT to the point where it was wallowing. It was a lot less fun and less consistent and kinda sketchy, but lap times didn't change that much (considering what happened).

Based on that (and my monkeying around with DSC in my C7GS) I doubt your lap times will change much going from street to track, and it will probably be easier to drive in street. If it's bumpy, street is probably faster and safer.

[13COBRA]

Yeah, I've found that too. When I did the Corvette advanced driving school at spring mountain, the lead instructor said he thinks the Z06 suspension is better than the Z07 and the Z07 is too stiff. They actually offered an update a few years in that softened up the mag ride programing. And spring mountain is pretty smooth.

When I drove super smooth tracks (COTA in their first year of HPDE and a brand new, fresh paved local track) I stiffened the heck out of my dampers via DSC and it was good, but it was also much more difficult to drive.

However, with the ACR, stiffer may be better. Body roll kills aero.


With that said, it's not that big of a deal. My DSC overheated and failed on a +105 degree Texas day and my suspension went full soft. It was sketchy AF, and my times were a lot less consistent, but overall, I probably dropped 0.5 to 0.75 seconds or so. That's the difference between a very good suspension and literally FULL SOFT to the point where it was wallowing. It was a lot less fun and less consistent and kinda sketchy, but lap times didn't change that much (considering what happened).

Based on that (and my monkeying around with DSC in my C7GS) I doubt your lap times will change much going from street to track, and it will probably be easier to drive in street. If it's bumpy, street is probably faster and safer.

I agree with your assessment.

I think the street mode will be easier to drive 'fast', but the track mode would allow you to drive faster, if you can do it.

[PkB2014]

fo sho, going to shake it down at Laguna Seca in July, hopefully the cup2 connects arrive so I'll give them a try and maybe give you guys some feedback/review about them

great plan! I got mine mounted, too. I'll try to give some feedback on how they do in Autocross, but my next event won't be until July as well.

And for Street vs Race settings. I found Race feels more steady and is more confidence inspiring.

[finalleaf]

great plan! I got mine mounted, too. I'll try to give some feedback on how they do in Autocross, but my next event won't be until July as well.

And for Street vs Race settings. I found Race feels more steady and is more confidence inspiring.

Wow how were you able to get Cup 2 Connects in viper sizes already? tirerack was out of stock for so long

[PkB2014]

Wow how were you able to get Cup 2 Connects in viper sizes already? tirerack was out of stock for so long

fronts from JonB, rears from SpeedyTire

https://www.speedytire.com/tires/michelin/pilot-sport-cup-2-connect-240/345-30zr19-29790

[ViperGeorge]

By the way, JonB has two choices of tires for ACRs in 19/19. One is the Kumho, don't remember the other brand.

[Arizona Vipers]

I did the SRT Viper driving experience at Las Vegas International. We did some autocrossing in Gen 5s. We tried both race and street settings and I was faster in street mode. Instructor went out to test my assertion and came back and said "You were right, I was faster in street mode too." The Autocross track was very smooth. Never tried it on a big track as I track an ACR which doesn't have that choice.

I don't have adjustable suspension on mine, but my car is MUCH faster with softer rear springs. I run 1100 and the car puts power down so much better than the 1300's, it's a totally different car. I want to go even softer, but will have to spend a lot of time testing bump stops etc. The more power you have, the more of a difference this will make. We went back to 1300's because my car keeps bottoming out damaging the rear fender. At buttonwillow in November I couldn't even drive the car. I spun more times in one session than I have in the last 5 years. The same thing is true with my 720s and everyone else that tracks them will agree the car is much faster in sport than track mode as the softer settings lets you put full power down much sooner. 1300's are ridiculous on our cars but are there from the factory for safety to assure the car does not bottom out at it's 177mph top speed.

[finalleaf]

I don't have adjustable suspension on mine, but my car is MUCH faster with softer rear springs. I run 1100 and the car puts power down so much better than the 1300's, it's a totally different car. I want to go even softer, but will have to spend a lot of time testing bump stops etc. The more power you have, the more of a difference this will make. We went back to 1300's because my car keeps bottoming out damaging the rear fender. At buttonwillow in November I couldn't even drive the car. I spun more times in one session than I have in the last 5 years. The same thing is true with my 720s and everyone else that tracks them will agree the car is much faster in sport than track mode as the softer settings lets you put full power down much sooner. 1300's are ridiculous on our cars but are there from the factory for safety to assure the car does not bottom out at it's 177mph top speed.

I cant imagine hitting bus stop at BW with really soft springs, or that dip before phil hill

[Lawineer]

Lol, try ACR springs without a wing or splitter. I did that at the track. If the track wasn't brand new, it would have got real dicey...

[Arizona Vipers]

I cant imagine hitting bus stop at BW with really soft springs, or that dip before phil hill

I ran there no problem with the 1100's. BTW 1100 pound springs aren't "soft" lol. Bottoming out at the bottom of hills aren't the problem, it's top speed. I was hitting 176 (gear limited) at road atlanta and that's where the body damage happened. Very minor the rear fender popped out. I can live with it, but really want 900's, but will have to figure out something to keep it from causing more damage.

[Arizona Vipers]

Lol, try ACR springs without a wing or splitter. I did that at the track. If the track wasn't brand new, it would have got real dicey...

I bet!

[Pappy]

I ran there no problem with the 1100's. BTW 1100 pound springs aren't "soft" lol. Bottoming out at the bottom of hills aren't the problem, it's top speed. I was hitting 176 (gear limited) at road atlanta and that's where the body damage happened. Very minor the rear fender popped out. I can live with it, but really want 900's, but will have to figure out something to keep it from causing more damage.

Bump stops? A little risky if it is bottoming while turning (drives the spring rate way up), but not a big deal if it is bottoming while going straight. I have progressive PAC spring bump stops that cushion the bottoming, but can stop the travel where you have them set. You can see the PAC spring in this photo, and there is a solid aluminum bump stop spacer below it. I also have "packers" available to adjust the bump stop height.

51670

[Arizona Vipers]

Bump stops? A little risky if it is bottoming while turning (drives the spring rate way up), but not a big deal if it is bottoming while going straight. I have progressive PAC spring bump stops that cushion the bottoming, but can stop the travel where you have them set. You can see the PAC spring in this photo, and there is a solid aluminum bump stop spacer below it. I also have "packers" available to adjust the bump stop height.



Yeah that's what I meant, I will look into PAC springs, thanks Pappy!

[TKO MOTORSPORTS TEAM]

Yeah that's what I meant, I will look into PAC springs, thanks Pappy!


Use bump rubbers much better way to go then springs and much easier to work with for setup. Bump springs are options when your working with a good amount of travel. You can use bump springs to add more wedge or slow cars rotation down entering turns. You see bump springs sometimes in dirt mods, dirt late models or some off road set ups for trophy trucks. Your bottoming out problems sound like shock length, dampening and spring rate to low problems. Pretty easy fixes

[pMak26]

I got my track set of wheels in and mounted up 315/30r18 Hoosier A7s in the front and 345/35r18 A7s for the rear.

Do you guys who run Hoosiers really do one session on the tires to break them in then let them sit 24hours like suggested? That would SUCK to go all the way to the track with them, do one session and then go home. I really don't want to drive this car on any track with the Michelin tires again, but I guess I could swap them back on after one session to at least have some kind of fun with the rest of the day. The will power it will take to do that will be... difficult to muster.

[Lawineer]

Some companies will hear cycle them for you.

[ViperGeorge]

Some companies will hear cycle them for you.

Lawineer meant "heat" cycle. I always had my Hoosiers heat cycled but when I was speaking to someone from Track Day Tire they said they see no difference when tires are heat cycled or not. I have no way to know if this is true. I'm guessing that heat cycling the tire on a machine is not really the same as do a track session on them.

[finalleaf]

Unrelated: What do you guys use for track insurance? I've been using opentrack but was wondering if there were better options, or do you guys not run with track insurance

[13COBRA]

I got my track set of wheels in and mounted up 315/30r18 Hoosier A7s in the front and 345/35r18 A7s for the rear.

Do you guys who run Hoosiers really do one session on the tires to break them in then let them sit 24hours like suggested? That would SUCK to go all the way to the track with them, do one session and then go home. I really don't want to drive this car on any track with the Michelin tires again, but I guess I could swap them back on after one session to at least have some kind of fun with the rest of the day. The will power it will take to do that will be... difficult to muster.

I've never done that. Never had an issue. I could get about 19 heat cycles on the A7s and 25 on the R7s. Obviously they fall off before that, but I could run them that long without being dead.

I wouldn't stress about the initial heat cycle.

[Arizona Vipers]

I got my track set of wheels in and mounted up 315/30r18 Hoosier A7s in the front and 345/35r18 A7s for the rear.

Do you guys who run Hoosiers really do one session on the tires to break them in then let them sit 24hours like suggested? That would SUCK to go all the way to the track with them, do one session and then go home. I really don't want to drive this car on any track with the Michelin tires again, but I guess I could swap them back on after one session to at least have some kind of fun with the rest of the day. The will power it will take to do that will be... difficult to muster.

In my 7 years or so of doing 100+ events, have been around some extremely fast, knowledgeable guys, I have never met anyone that heat cycles their tires
Tirerack offers this (or did) so I think it caused everything to think they need to do it. Nothing is faster than a brand new tire, so why waste your fastest session? Everyone going for a Nasa record, always puts on new tires

[Arizona Vipers]

Use bump rubbers much better way to go then springs and much easier to work with for setup. Bump springs are options when your working with a good amount of travel. You can use bump springs to add more wedge or slow cars rotation down entering turns. You see bump springs sometimes in dirt mods, dirt late models or some off road set ups for trophy trucks. Your bottoming out problems sound like shock length, dampening and spring rate to low problems. Pretty easy fixes

Yeah my issue is too low of spring rates, but when I go up to 1300's, it makes it much harder to put the power down. The car becomes completely different and lights the tires up at 50mph

[13COBRA]

In my 7 years or so of doing 100+ events, have been around some extremely fast, knowledgeable guys, I have never met anyone that heat cycles their tires
Tirerack offers this (or did) so I think it caused everything to think they need to do it. Nothing is faster than a brand new tire, so why waste your fastest session? Everyone going for a Nasa record, always puts on new tires

Agreed.

[Lawineer]

I think it's for life, not to increase grip.

[speedtactics]

I track my 2016 all the time. Tons of track miles on it. Stock 2016 with TA 2.0 package on it. I have a bunch of upgrades coming soon so can't wait to go back out. ACR shocks and front splitter and APR big wing. I run the Pirelli 305 up front and 325 in the back 18" all around.
51869

[pMak26]

I track my 2016 all the time. Tons of track miles on it. Stock 2016 with TA 2.0 package on it. I have a bunch of upgrades coming soon so can't wait to go back out. ACR shocks and front splitter and APR big wing. I run the Pirelli 305 up front and 325 in the back 18" all around.

Beautiful photo!

How's the balance with 305s up front and 325s in the rear?

[finalleaf]

I track my 2016 all the time. Tons of track miles on it. Stock 2016 with TA 2.0 package on it. I have a bunch of upgrades coming soon so can't wait to go back out. ACR shocks and front splitter and APR big wing. I run the Pirelli 305 up front and 325 in the back 18" all around.
51869

I'll be at laguna this up coming saturday (30th) come!!

[TKO MOTORSPORTS TEAM]

Yeah my issue is too low of spring rates, but when I go up to 1300's, it makes it much harder to put the power down. The car becomes completely different and lights the tires up at 50mph



Keep the 1300lbs springs and disconnect your rear sway bar. This will make the car more compliant in the rear and help with throttle loose problem. Its a band-aid for other problems but it will help

[GTS Dean]

He can test by just disconnecting one side's link, right? I know that snaking a Gen1-2 rear bar in and out is a bit challenging.


I got my track set of wheels in and mounted up 315/30r18 Hoosier A7s in the front and 345/35r18 A7s for the rear.

Do you guys who run Hoosiers really do one session on the tires to break them in then let them sit 24hours like suggested? That would SUCK to go all the way to the track with them, do one session and then go home. I really don't want to drive this car on any track with the Michelin tires again, but I guess I could swap them back on after one session to at least have some kind of fun with the rest of the day. The will power it will take to do that will be... difficult to muster.

I've always tried to scrub a new set of stickies and then let them sit as recommended. You need to work them thoroughly to get nice and hot without abusing them. I usually hit the track with an extra set of mounted tires and plan my sessions accordingly.

[TKO MOTORSPORTS TEAM]

He can test by just disconnecting one side's link, right? I know that snaking a Gen1-2 rear bar in and out is a bit challenging.



I've always tried to scrub a new set of stickies and then let them sit as recommended. You need to work them thoroughly to get nice and hot without abusing them. I usually hit the track with an extra set of mounted tires and plan my sessions accordingly.

Yep your correct. Just disconnect one side ( usually the control arm side) and zip tie the down link to sway bar or just make sure its out of the way.

Your also right on scrubbing tires. If your allowed to scrub and you have the time its by far the best way to get maximum performance and tire life out of a tire.

[Arizona Vipers]

I track my 2016 all the time. Tons of track miles on it. Stock 2016 with TA 2.0 package on it. I have a bunch of upgrades coming soon so can't wait to go back out. ACR shocks and front splitter and APR big wing. I run the Pirelli 305 up front and 325 in the back 18" all around.
When I ran Pirelli's, I ran 325 all around:
325-650 front
325-705 rear

[TKO MOTORSPORTS TEAM]

When I ran Pirelli's, I ran 325 all around:
325-650 front
325-705 rear

Those Pirellis are great tires, They take a lot of abuse with predictable fall off. They also dont change very much from batch to batch very consistent.
where are you running your cold and hot pressures??
Nitro correct?

[speedtactics]

I would love to but can't make it right now.Have fun!

I'll be at laguna this up coming saturday (30th) come!!

[Arizona Vipers]

Those Pirellis are great tires, They take a lot of abuse with predictable fall off. They also dont change very much from batch to batch very consistent.
where are you running your cold and hot pressures??
Nitro correct?

28-29 hot max for me. And yeah they lasted forever, but are very expensive. I run the Yoko's now, love the huge front 320, it's a 343mm on my 12" front wheel.
I run:
320/650R18 A60
330/710R18 A60

The rears are huge too, mounted they seem a lot bigger than the 330 Michelins. They are more like 355-360

[TKO MOTORSPORTS TEAM]

28-29 hot max for me. And yeah they lasted forever, but are very expensive. I run the Yoko's now, love the huge front 320, it's a 343mm on my 12" front wheel.
I run:
320/650R18 A60
330/710R18 A60

The rears are huge too, mounted they seem a lot bigger than the 330 Michelins. They are more like 355-360

28-29psi is pretty high hot pressures for pirellis or the yoks your running now. They really like hot 26 psi. We send them out around 18-21 psi depending on conditions.

[13COBRA]

28-29psi is pretty high hot pressures for pirellis or the yoks your running now. They really like hot 26 psi. We send them out around 18-21 psi depending on conditions.

What do you guys run Michelins hot at?

[TKO MOTORSPORTS TEAM]

What do you guys run Michelins hot at?

we only ran Michelins once or twice during testing in the last few years. Never had real good results with them. We probably had a little to aggressive setup on car for them so more our fault them tires. The drivers didnt like them after coming off Pirellis. They said Michelins were much slower then Pirellis kinda wishy washy also which makes sense.

We ran cold psi 19 shooting for hot 26 psi. Maybe shoot for 28 psi hot and check tire temps see where they are and then compare lap times.

[Arizona Vipers]

28-29psi is pretty high hot pressures for pirellis or the yoks your running now. They really like hot 26 psi. We send them out around 18-21 psi depending on conditions.

On cup cars etc I'm sure you could go lower but my car doesn't like it, I'm around 3250 with fuel

[TKO MOTORSPORTS TEAM]

On cup cars etc I'm sure you could go lower but my car doesn't like it, I'm around 3250 with fuel

We run the same pressure on porsche GT3R 3200lbs full fuel load with high down force setup and merc GT3R same setup. Few other cars we run same Pirellis same target hot pressure. The pirellis just seem to like that 26psi hot contact patch. The rim spin is minimal also nothing to really worry about.
Having said all this .........Every car is different and every driver is different. If your lap times are consistently lower running a hot high pressure vs a lower hot pressure then you always go with what works.

[finalleaf]

Took my maiden journey with the Viper at Laguna yesterday, car was very balanced, probably the most rewarding car I've driven albeit a little scary as this is the only car that really made T1 feel like a turn.

Tried out the Cup 2 connects (240TW), they had good grip but nothing too special, they got quite greasy towards end of each session though.

A couple rough parts though
1. The brakes (R12/10 with SRF) stopped the car but never really got the confidence that I was hoping to get with the feel on the pedal.
2. Heel toeing was especially rough with this car, I've got average sized feet but there were quite a few times where I accidentally pressed both pedals at the same time, I suspect this will just take a lot of adjustment and experimenting with foot position

51923

[Arizona Vipers]

We run the same pressure on porsche GT3R 3200lbs full fuel load with high down force setup and merc GT3R same setup. Few other cars we run same Pirellis same target hot pressure. The pirellis just seem to like that 26psi hot contact patch. The rim spin is minimal also nothing to really worry about.
Having said all this .........Every car is different and every driver is different. If your lap times are consistently lower running a hot high pressure vs a lower hot pressure then you always go with what works.

Good info, thanks!

[02192viper]

By any chance are you or any others running Laguna this weekend, August 6 or 7? It’s another 105 decibel weekend.

[stradman]

I run 31 hot on my Michelins and that is based on wear and tire temps. Used to run 28-29 in accordance with some suggestions but wear and temps just wasn't as even. For me at least this works

[PkB2014]

Took my maiden journey with the Viper at Laguna yesterday, car was very balanced, probably the most rewarding car I've driven albeit a little scary as this is the only car that really made T1 feel like a turn.

Tried out the Cup 2 connects (240TW), they had good grip but nothing too special, they got quite greasy towards end of each session though.

A couple rough parts though
1. The brakes (R12/10 with SRF) stopped the car but never really got the confidence that I was hoping to get with the feel on the pedal.
2. Heel toeing was especially rough with this car, I've got average sized feet but there were quite a few times where I accidentally pressed both pedals at the same time, I suspect this will just take a lot of adjustment and experimenting with foot position



Looking good! I finally had some autocross time on the Cup2 Connect as well. Similar feelings to you. First 2 runs felt pretty good, like you said, good grip but nothing crazy. But there were course issues and i had 2 reruns back to back. Felt like the tires got overheated and started to get a little greasy. Still had good grip but not as good as the first couple runs. I had issues with the course and my times were off of my normal pace. I don't know if it was just me or the tires or both. Have an event this weekend so we'll have another go and see

[RedTanRT/10]

Looks like Laguna Picture week???

TKO, interesting comments regarding the Michelin's. haven't used them much ($$$) but I do like the fact that they make a shorter rear tire (680) than the Pirelli's so I can swap back and forth with 345 A7's and not have to adjust the rake with the tall rear Pirelli's. Haven't shopped Pirelli's in some time, do they make a shorter rear tire now? Thanks, Mike


51938

[finalleaf]

Looking good! I finally had some autocross time on the Cup2 Connect as well. Similar feelings to you. First 2 runs felt pretty good, like you said, good grip but nothing crazy. But there were course issues and i had 2 reruns back to back. Felt like the tires got overheated and started to get a little greasy. Still had good grip but not as good as the first couple runs. I had issues with the course and my times were off of my normal pace. I don't know if it was just me or the tires or both. Have an event this weekend so we'll have another go and see

I've been wanting to run autocross, but the courses here are so small that 2nd gear would basically mean no power and 1st gear would be unmanageable, are you running the entire course in 2nd?

Also I've been running 33 hot for the cup 2 connects, maybe I'll try going down to 31 next time out. Wish we could get RT660s or A052s in our size

[finalleaf]

Looks like Laguna Picture week???

TKO, interesting comments regarding the Michelin's. haven't used them much ($$$) but I do like the fact that they make a shorter rear tire (680) than the Pirelli's so I can swap back and forth with 345 A7's and not have to adjust the rake with the tall rear Pirelli's. Haven't shopped Pirelli's in some time, do they make a shorter rear tire now? Thanks, Mike


51938


I saw a few other vipers! a vomit green (I think that's what he called it) GT-C with TA, a couple other GTS, and I think earlier Gen black GT1 car that somehow still blew sound on a high DB day



By any chance are you or any others running Laguna this weekend, August 6 or 7? It’s another 105 decibel weekend.
Unfortunately I cannot this weekend, I do wish to go back before they close the track for almost a year for repaving

[TKO MOTORSPORTS TEAM]

Looks like Laguna Picture week???

TKO, interesting comments regarding the Michelin's. haven't used them much ($$$) but I do like the fact that they make a shorter rear tire (680) than the Pirelli's so I can swap back and forth with 345 A7's and not have to adjust the rake with the tall rear Pirelli's. Haven't shopped Pirelli's in some time, do they make a shorter rear tire now? Thanks, Mike


51938
Pirelli hasn't really changed the dimensions or construction of their pzero slicks for quite awhile now...Or as far as we know going on what they tell us; So they probably are the same as when you ran them last. They have changed compounds once or twice in the last 10 years and surprisingly its been good changes. Price always changes every year it always goes up.
When you change tire mfg its a good idea to tweak your setup if you have race notes on that tire.