cooked a side sill

[MH60M]

The SpeedTactics sill vents are nice. Easy to install and they blend well.

http://www.speedtactics.com/dodge_viper_gill.php

Who made these with the "Sneaky Pete" logo......I can't remember where I saw them.

[Dan Cragin]

You first want to make sure that you do not have a misfire or a bad oxygen sensor on that side of the engine. Raw fuel getting into the cat will really get things hot. Silver cars seem to show the heat damge the worst.

I have found that by adding some vents to the front of the side sills and replacing the insulation with a high quality inconel insulation takes care of the heat issues. Its not a cheap conversion but the thinner inconel insulation is highly relflective, radiates the heat back into the exhaust and the fact that it allows an airgap between the cataylst and the side panel, promotes more aiflow. It will last the life of the car and will not burn up like the factory stuff. The side sill vents are 304 stainless and TIG welded. They wont bend or corriode like some others out there.

here are some pictures of the vents ($149) and the inconel insulation ($799 per side)

[WDW MKR]

Who made these with the "Sneaky Pete" logo......I can't remember where I saw them.

Not sure I ever saw any with a logo. I like the low-key SpeedTactics design.

[dave6666]

Not sure I ever saw any with a logo.

^^^ this

[uvbnbit]

UPDATE:
Out for quite a bit yesterday. Sunny, hot and 95 degrees. Car runs great, engine temps normal.
Got home, checked sills with infrared thermo.
Passenger side varied from 255 to 215, 255 being in worse damaged area from heat (at muffler). (350 at front bend behind wheel)
I free-handed some holes/vents in front of sill too, to allow more flow through. Maybe that helped? Maybe it didn't? Pass. side still hotter though.
Driver side varied from 235 to 215.
Does passenger side typically run 10% hotter for any reason?

[Sybil TF]

I assumed my passenger side did because that side sill was discolored from heat a lot more than the drivers side.

[BlackSnake99]

After I removed my cats and wrapped my exhaust with Thermo-Tec, my sills run 155* on the outer surface and 118* at the inner door sill.

[BlackSnake99]

And my driver/passenger sides run the same temp. It was the passenger side that melted the plastic, however.

[SLViper]

Might have been the result of running an RT10 with the top down for the first time.......ever! LOL
or It may just need to be driven to the beach to " sort it out "
Seriously, sorry we missed the Crawdaddys cruise, hope you all had a great Labor Day !!!

[dave6666]

Any way you can log your STFT to see if one bank is richer than the other?

[uvbnbit]

Any way you can log your STFT to see if one bank is richer than the other?

Yes. I have pics of those. That was something else I checked along with injectors, O2 voltage, fuel pressure...
Will post in a bit.

[MH60M]

That's the key to keeping things cool? Is there a certain brand that works best? DEI, HeatSheild Procucts, Thermotec The local M3 crowd is on this ceramic lizard skin heat/noise coating kick, for the inside of the cabin to keep heat and noise out. Thoughts?

[dave6666]

Thoughts?

Ref. the sills, ventilation to let the heat out is the first line of defense. Wrapping things to keep the heat in should be the second line of defense.

[BlackSnake99]

Ref. the sills, ventilation to let the heat out is the first line of defense. Wrapping things to keep the heat in should be the second line of defense.

Mmmmmm......foil.

[Vprbite]

Ref. the sills, ventilation to let the heat out is the first line of defense. Wrapping things to keep the heat in should be the second line of defense.

This makes sense to me. Wrapping is good but there is no reason not to give the heat an easy way out.

Dave, you are pretty good with this stuff as I recall. You could probably make a few bucks manufacturing them and doing a "swap-out" business. I bet people would take you up on it. You send them sills vented at the end and they send you theirs.

[uvbnbit]

Will be updating more in week or so. I'll be replacing some clanky sway bar links and while it's up in air, gonna pull exhaust, resonators, cats, and inspect. Sills are cool when driving, but slow, and idling they do heat up. Looking back at pics make me think that resonator has GOT to be burnt up...
What the latest in cat back? From what I've searched, deleting resonator is asking for drone issues. I'll stop there. Thanks

[dave6666]

I've since gone catless - no smell, and didn't have heat before the delete - and have finally found a muffler choice that sounds good and is not deafening, like I had.

[MacGyvers Mullet]

I also went catless a couple of weekends ago. No smell and the heat is gone. If fabbed correctly, you shouldn't have any fumes come into the cabin. Even more so with a proper tune, especially on a side-exit car. Don't be afraid to do it, as long as you take the right steps.

[uvbnbit]

I was catless for 6 years. Noise wasn't the problem. Smell and rear bumper stain was. I tried new O2's, plugs, PCM reset, etc.
My limited understanding, the VEC3 can only do so much (if any) under closed loop operation.
I have considered replacing it with a re-done PCM to match my mods. (all thoughts, comments appreciated on this option)

Dave, how far back did you put mufflers? Did you go with the one's from Lou?

edit for data info: car ran WAY rich with O2 in the middle header tube so moved them to collector of all 5 tubes about 8 yrs ago and have since replace the O2's one other time i think. According to WBO (in driver side) it bounces around in the 13.8-15.5 range normal driving. To me, that seems right along with PCM trying to keep A/F in the 14.7 range.

[dave6666]

The Morosos are directly on the turnouts and the glasspacks are directly on the Morosos.

I had major tuning issues with the primary sensors in the merge collectors. Too much signal delay between the reading and the injectors. Moved them back to the single down tube and problem instantly solved.

I would ditch the VEC for SCT. I have no cats and virtually no smell thanks to VSP tuning it. Getting a single PCM flash will IMO not be an effective method to get a really great tune.

Your wideband is a little lean IMO. I drive in the 12 to 13's which is where Dan says it should be. Not 14.7.

[uvbnbit]

Thanks. Interesting on the A/F findings.
I have noticed more decel popping than normal. Maybe the signal delay you speak of is just enough for the injectors not closing quick enough?
I spoke to Dan briefly in UT about VEC delete options. But that was 6 yrs ago so I cant remember for sure...lol.
I guess it's time to contact him to refresh my memory as well as my tune....
Home equity loan, here I come...

[dave6666]

The signal delay has nothing to do with the injector pulse width translating into a delayed end of cycle, or incorrect closing. It has to do with that the sensor being so far from the head, and the reading it takes which goes to the PCM to be processed and then used for the injector signal, that sensor reading is already old news by the time the exhaust actually makes it from the head to the sensor. Yes, we are only talking about some amount of milliseconds, but at lower velocities (like idle to off idle) those milliseconds are a tuning problem. The sensor signal is no longer relevant to what the engine is doing by the time the sensor signal is processed.

I suppose though that every engine is different. Even if using the same parts. But I spent about 6 months with Dan moving sensors around to various locations that I added to various pipes, and in the end, the best locations for tuning were cyls 3 & 4 in the bungs that Lou puts in the headers.

Regarding a budget for tuning, you'll need at least an SCT ($400). If you want to do something more advanced than a single canned email tune you'll also need a means to drive log your fuel trims. Software and the OBD cable shouldn't cost more than $150 - $200. I use an Innovate to log WOT ($350) but you may already have that capability?

So assuming you already have a laptop, hardware costs wouldn't exceed $1K. Possibly way less if you already have some of the stuff.

One thing regarding Roe tuning that others have said can't be done, that myself and Dan are successfully doing, is allowing the long term trims to remain active. What happens is that if you don't get the short term tables spot on, the long term trims will compensate but overshoot. So your tune is constantly chasing itself. It takes some extra tuning time to really nail the short term tables down, but it is worth it.

Here's what a short term trim map looks like from one of my drive logs. They are almost spot on. And if the short terms don't have much to do, neither will the long terms.



Here's a good example of what simply moving the sensor location can do to your tuning. Same tune each time.

Sensors in 3/4 down tubes.



Sensors in merge collectors. Car ran like crap.

[dave6666]

Finally, I think Dan charges $110 per hour for tuning. Depending on what you want to do you can run a tab up there quickly, but let's say it's just a "routine" ten tune episode. Especially since you will literally get a free ride on the knowledge that has been gained from Dan and I working together on my car.

You could surmise the following potential costs:

* $400 SCT
* $200 logging software
* $350 logging wideband
* $750 tuning (10x $75 per tune?)

So it could range from $400 for a simple canned tune to under $2K for some refined tuning.

[uvbnbit]

Good info. I figured it would be in 1k range. Cheaper than replacing sills and insulation...
Thanks.

[Viper Specialty]

Lots of good information in this thread.

First some clarification; Dave is referring to me, not Dan Cragin. I was not in Utah, so there must be some miscommunication here. Its a common thing... Dan Lesser @ Viper Specialty Performance, and Dan Cragin @ Specialty Performance Team are a bit too close for comfort!

Secondly, Dave is pretty much spot on. However, the one thing not being mentioned is that your hardware configuration is tantamount to getting the tuning done properly. The VEC needs to go, proper wiring reversal and repair, any injector resistor boxes need to be removed, and you must be running the injector type specified by our tuning package, as well as a proper placement of the replacement MAP sensor. By having old and/or slow injectors, injectors with incorrect spray patterns, or even simply using an injector or MAP sensor for which there is no proper characterization data, tuning becomes extremely difficult and will alter itself situationally. Tuning should be based on concrete foundations, and then base maps should be built around the same ideals. If you ignore these principles like most tuners do, it is the equivalent of building your house on a poor foundation. Things will shift around and fall apart, regardless how it may "appear" at first glance.

Lastly, as pointed out previously, you definitely want to confirm the root cause of this is not an actual issue on the passenger side. Sensor problems, exhaust leaks, melted converters, stuck open injectors, misfires and ignition issues, etc. all can cause overheating of one side of the engine.

If there is anything you want to explore, let me know.