Coming Soon: Gen V Non-Invasive Catch Can Bracket DSE-VP-CC-002

[Steve M]

Bottom line: IMO, yes you need an oil catch can, and you need one sooner than later. Even with only 9,500 miles on my Gen 4 when I bought it, I still has an nice oil glaze on the inside of my intake manifold, and I also had the nice oil snail trails coming out of both throttle bodies from too much oil being pulled in. The oil catch can I'm running has helped to pretty much eliminate that issue entirely. If there is oil getting by, it ain't much.

[SSGNRDZ_28]

Thanks SteveM, you're essentially an automotive encyclopedia!

[viper04]

Thanks SteveM, you're essentially an automotive encyclopedia!

+1 to that!!

[RAY W]

...

[donk_316]

I have a proper RX catch can but I'm trying to figure out how to plumb it into the Viper system as it has 2 inlet hoses and 1 outlet hose. Possibly use both valve covers as inlets and feed the outlet to the intake piping?

[Steve M]

Thanks SteveM, you're essentially an automotive encyclopedia!

I've always liked the quote "Gentlemen, we have run out of money; now we have to think." At this point in my life, I'm a little short on money, but researching problems and solutions is generally free. A catch can is one of those often overlooked items that can potentially have a big impact on the performance of any car, especially one as powerful as a Viper.

I have a proper RX catch can but I'm trying to figure out how to plumb it into the Viper system as it has 2 inlet hoses and 1 outlet hose. Possibly use both valve covers as inlets and feed the outlet to the intake piping?

Here's a couple shots of my RX can:





I ordered mine with one inlet and one outlet. If you put the can under vacuum (like I have mine hooked up), you will only want to hook one valve cover up to it. There needs to be a source of makeup air (driver's side cover in this case) that is not under vacuum for the system to function properly.

[Jack B]

You need a second can for the drivers side. During high load/rpm, you will force oil into the air cleaner.

I've always liked the quote "Gentlemen, we have run out of money; now we have to think." At this point in my life, I'm a little short on money, but researching problems and solutions is generally free. A catch can is one of those often overlooked items that can potentially have a big impact on the performance of any car, especially one as powerful as a Viper.



Here's a couple shots of my RX can:





I ordered mine with one inlet and one outlet. If you put the can under vacuum (like I have mine hooked up), you will only want to hook one valve cover up to it. There needs to be a source of makeup air (driver's side cover in this case) that is not under vacuum for the system to function properly.

[Steve M]

You need a second can for the drivers side. During high load/rpm, you will force oil into the air cleaner.

I've actually never had an issue on that side...I check it periodically, and that line stays dry on mine. If I ever do have an issue, I'll come up with something for that side too.

[donk_316]

It's because it's a RX can... Not a typical catch can.

[Steve M]

It's because it's a RX can... Not a typical catch can.

RX makes different varieties...as long as the sides are sealed off from each other, you can run both lines into the same can.

[donk_316]

Thanks for your help

I have the dual monster: http://www.rxspeedworks.com/product/catch-can-kits/

[ddominator1]

Hey Steve. Great info. Thanks man. Now just have to order one. Is this pretty simple..to install? Other than can a d bracket would any,addl lines be needed ? If I could get a step by,step instruction how to install would be helpful. ! Best

I'll take a stab at it:

Piston rings make a seal with the cylinder walls - the rings don't seal 100% (they have gaps to allow for expansion/contraction), so inevitably combustion by-products (known as blow-by) make it past the rings into the crankcase/engine block. Those gases inevitably make contact with your engine oil, and those two things don't belong together (you want to keep your engine oil as clean as possible); it also increases the pressure in the crankcase, and that's not good for making sure the rings seal properly. In order to mitigate this problem, engine designers use something known as positive crankcase ventilation (PCV) systems to evacuate these gases. In the most basic sense, the intake manifold vacuum is used to pull the gases out. This vacuum is very restricted...otherwise, you'd end up pulling oil along with it. On a Gen 5 Viper, that's the line that runs from the passenger side valve cover to the intake manifold...the valve that's there is the PCV valve. In addition to restricting the flow, you also need a source of make-up air to be drawn in to the crankcase...essentially, this replaces what the PCV system draws out. On a Viper, that is the line that runs from the airbox to the driver's side valve cover. This line is not under vacuum. These two components (vacuum side with a restrictor valve and a make-up side with the fresh air) make up the PCV system.

Even with baffling in the valve covers, there's still enough oil spraying around in the top end of the heads that you will inevitably end up pulling an oil mist into the PCV system...the more oil that's splashing around (like with high RPM driving), the more this becomes an issue. Due to emissions regulations, any combustion byproducts must be dumped back into the intake manifold to be burned off rather than venting them to atmosphere. At the end of the day, this oil mist gets dumped in your intake manifold, and that can cause all sorts of issues. The main issue is that this oil makes its way to the intake ports and valves, and effectively lowers the octane of the gas that it mixes with as the injectors are firing. If I'm not mistaken, oil has an octane rating of around 50 or so, so although I don't know how much it would take down the octane rating of 93 gas (depends on the volume ratios of both), it is enough that it can cause pinging/detonation.

An oil catch can allows a place for the oil mist to cool down and condense into droplets, so they can effectively drop out of the crankcase fumes they are suspended in. This allows the oil to collect in the can instead of it going into the intake manifold. If you don't mix the oil droplets with the gas, you don't end up lowering the effective octane rating of said gas, giving your engine the best chance to not have any knock/pinging/whatever you want to call it. Basically, you end up getting the maximum amount of performance and durability out of your engine as possible because you aren't allowing garbage back into the combustion chamber to be burned off.

[GTSilver]

Please count me down for one.
Thanks

[SSGNRDZ_28]

Fittings and hose will likely be slightly different depending on the end user install, there will probably be a few places to mount the can and a few different configurations (read through this thread for some background info). For an idea on how I routed the can for my Gen IV (with Gen V intake manifold), see the following:

http://dougshelbyengineering.com/upl...acket_Rev2.pdf

Hey Steve. Great info. Thanks man. Now just have to order one. Is this pretty simple..to install? Other than can a d bracket would any,addl lines be needed ? If I could get a step by,step instruction how to install would be helpful. ! Best

[swexlin]

I'll take a stab at it:

Piston rings make a seal with the cylinder walls - the rings don't seal 100% (they have gaps to allow for expansion/contraction), so inevitably combustion by-products (known as blow-by) make it past the rings into the crankcase/engine block. Those gases inevitably make contact with your engine oil, and those two things don't belong together (you want to keep your engine oil as clean as possible); it also increases the pressure in the crankcase, and that's not good for making sure the rings seal properly. In order to mitigate this problem, engine designers use something known as positive crankcase ventilation (PCV) systems to evacuate these gases. In the most basic sense, the intake manifold vacuum is used to pull the gases out. This vacuum is very restricted...otherwise, you'd end up pulling oil along with it. On a Gen 5 Viper, that's the line that runs from the passenger side valve cover to the intake manifold...the valve that's there is the PCV valve. In addition to restricting the flow, you also need a source of make-up air to be drawn in to the crankcase...essentially, this replaces what the PCV system draws out. On a Viper, that is the line that runs from the airbox to the driver's side valve cover. This line is not under vacuum. These two components (vacuum side with a restrictor valve and a make-up side with the fresh air) make up the PCV system.

Even with baffling in the valve covers, there's still enough oil spraying around in the top end of the heads that you will inevitably end up pulling an oil mist into the PCV system...the more oil that's splashing around (like with high RPM driving), the more this becomes an issue. Due to emissions regulations, any combustion byproducts must be dumped back into the intake manifold to be burned off rather than venting them to atmosphere. At the end of the day, this oil mist gets dumped in your intake manifold, and that can cause all sorts of issues. The main issue is that this oil makes its way to the intake ports and valves, and effectively lowers the octane of the gas that it mixes with as the injectors are firing. If I'm not mistaken, oil has an octane rating of around 50 or so, so although I don't know how much it would take down the octane rating of 93 gas (depends on the volume ratios of both), it is enough that it can cause pinging/detonation.

An oil catch can allows a place for the oil mist to cool down and condense into droplets, so they can effectively drop out of the crankcase fumes they are suspended in. This allows the oil to collect in the can instead of it going into the intake manifold. If you don't mix the oil droplets with the gas, you don't end up lowering the effective octane rating of said gas, giving your engine the best chance to not have any knock/pinging/whatever you want to call it. Basically, you end up getting the maximum amount of performance and durability out of your engine as possible because you aren't allowing garbage back into the combustion chamber to be burned off.

Thank you! I never really understood this issue either, but this is a very clear explanation that even I can understand. Much appreciated Steve.

[ViperPete]

SO can I have one please?

[swexlin]

Next question: since you're not venting to atmosphere, you're not violating emission laws. So why are hi-po cars factory equipped with catch cans?

[Steve M]

Next question: since you're not venting to atmosphere, you're not violating emission laws. So why are hi-po cars factory equipped with catch cans?

I'm sure there are many reasons, but off the top of my head:

1. Something else to design, manufacture, and install - for something like a Corvette with a large production run, this would likely eat into profits
2. Most manufacturers seem to think this issue can be addressed with well-designed PCV systems that incorporate fancy baffling to eliminate this issue - the LT1 in the C7 Corvette comes to mind. I remember reading about their newest patented PCV system that was supposed to eliminate this issue entirely...it's a big issue for direct injected engines because you no longer have fuel spraying on the intake valves to wash the oil gunk off. To the best of my knowledge, the LT1 still suffers from PCV-related oil ingestion issues.
3. It is something else for the end-user to have to maintain.
4. Maintenance of this system means you have to get rid of this gunk somehow - you can't just pour it back into the engine oil, and I'm sure the EPA would like you to do something with it other than dump it. That's why they want it burned off in the combustion chamber, your engine be damned.

[swexlin]

Steve, I think you nailed it with point number 4!

[SSGNRDZ_28]

The initial test fit went well for both locations. Many thanks to the vehicle donor!

IMG_6861.jpgIMG_6862.jpgIMG_6863.jpgIMG_6864.jpg

Next I need to confirm some plumbing and other details to ensure there are no mechanical conflicts before setting up a group buy.

Doug

[TexasTonka]

For a closed system, you really only need one - you just hook up the passenger side valve cover vent to the can, and then run a line from the can back to the intake manifold. The driver's side is the make up air side of things, and pulls air from the non-vacuum side of the inlet (at the air box)...in my experience, the driver's side line collects little to no oil, at least not on my particular car. If you wanted to be safe, you'd need a second can if you wanted to maintain a closed loop system.

If you want to run a breather type can, you'd run both lines to the catch can (requires two inlets) - one from the passenger side, one from the driver's side. The breather in this case acts as the vent as well as the source of make up air for the system.

Under no circumstances would you bring in the lines from the passenger and driver's side valve covers to the same can in a closed loop system - you'll end up with all sorts of weird stuff because the make up air portion of the system (driver's side line) would now be under vacuum. In order for a PCV to properly work, you need to pull the air out of the crank case - in the case of the Viper, this is done on the passenger side valve cover. The line runs from there straight to the intake manifold, putting that line under vacuum...this vacuum is restricted, however, by the PCV valve (that's the silver thing in the pic above). The other thing you need is a source of air to replace what is pulled out under vacuum - this is done on the driver's side valve cover. That line connects to a non-vacuum air source (the air box).

Hopefully that makes some sense. I've been running my closed loop can on my Gen 4 for quite some time, and it seems to have effectively stopped oil ingestion on my mainly street driven car. If you were going to track it, I'd likely run an open breather type of setup (like the ACR-X catch can system) so you could 100% eliminate the possibility of oil ingestion. The only byproduct of a system like that is the potential for fumes...some are more sensitive to it than others.

Great explaination. I have an ACR that I track so I went with the ACRX can, figured a lot of money went into designing it, why try to rethink it. And it is full after a hard track weekend. On road it takes 2-3k miles to fill it up.

This is new solution would be going on my '15 TA2.0 also a track car for me. If I could do a single mount dual inlet vented AWESOME. Just need to check clearances. If not a dual can system looks like it would work.

for street only applications a passenger only side should work, however there is still a chance of oil ingestion from both sides, so even a street only car would benefit from a dual can or ACRX style set up I would assume.

[GTSilver]

Any updates ?

[SSGNRDZ_28]

Had to reboot with a smaller can so that Bracket is underway. The gen V engine bay is tight. There will be a dual input vented and also a single input sealed option.

[Simms]

Any updates?

[SSGNRDZ_28]

I'm pulling parts together for the two kits. I hope to offer the bracket(s), can(s), hoses, fittings, etc as a kit. The new brackets are done. I need to do a test fit to see what works best as soon as I have everything ready. The new catch cans are nice and compact and also cheaper than the Radium offering.