What is the point of the Gen V ACR chasing the 'Ring record?

[Policy Limits]

If it doesn't matter why does the test exist? Not bashing the car, I bought it, like it, have always liked it, and some times catch myself staring at it in the garage. But it's difficult to be king if the ring in this hyper car world when your budget and resources are limited and when the funds you do have can be spent in other areas, which is what I thought the OP's opinion was, which I agree with. OP correct me if I'm wrong.

Ill bet over 90% of all viper owners from all gens never tracked; but that's just a guess.

[viperdan]

It is my opinion that the Ring is the most pure test of not only a cars performance capabilities but also the engineering and design as well. For instance the ACR could have had 800 hp but if it did not possess it's amazing aero package it would have not run 7:12. The Ring is a true testament to all around abilities, kind of like in baseball a five tool player that can throw, hit, hit for power, run and play defense. Some players only possess a couple or three specialties, the guys who are five tool players are the most beneficial to a team. The Viper does everything well on a track, if the ZR1 for instance had as good an aero package it may have run 7:12 as well, but we'll never know for they designed it the way they did.

[ViperSmith]

If it doesn't matter why does the test exist? Not bashing the car, I bought it, like it, have always liked it, and some times catch myself staring at it in the garage. But it's difficult to be king if the ring in this hyper car world when your budget and resources are limited and when the funds you do have can be spent in other areas, which is what I thought the OP's opinion was, which I agree with. OP correct me if I'm wrong.

Ill bet over 90% of all viper owners from all gens never tracked; but that's just a guess.

Pretty much. If the car can run a great time at the 'Ring, so be it. But, IMHO, SRT should focus on what the car can do a US based tracks, because lets be honest there is where a majority (and Canada) of cars are sold and raced.

I don't know why anyone construed what I said as "SRT shouldn't run the car at the 'Ring" - just I don't think it should be what they are shooting for.

I just think there will be a lot of excuses to why it can't beat the P1 and 918 - "Those cars cost $1m+ you can't expect to beat them" or some "They only built them for a year it isn't a real production car." While all along people touted the the Gen IV ACR as beating cars that cost in that range as being better.

To me, building a car that is demonstrable as superior on tracks people that can actually race them is a better selling point than one that can hold a 'Ring record for a short period of time, if at all.

Would it be cool if the Gen V ACR beat the P1 around the 'Ring, you bet ya. But, I wouldn't put my money on the fact it can. McLaren is very well funded.

[FLATOUT]

If it doesn't matter why does the test exist? Not bashing the car, I bought it, like it, have always liked it, and some times catch myself staring at it in the garage. But it's difficult to be king if the ring in this hyper car world when your budget and resources are limited and when the funds you do have can be spent in other areas, which is what I thought the OP's opinion was, which I agree with. OP correct me if I'm wrong.

Ill bet over 90% of all viper owners from all gens never tracked; but that's just a guess.

0-60 does matter, but it's an extremely basic test, and really a much better predictor or 1/8 and 1/4 mile performance. Vipers were never designed to be drag cars, they work there because of the power levels but it's just scratching the surface of any super or hyper car. Which is why 90% of these folks buying cars of this level are concerned with ring times not 0-60 times.

We all agreed that the hypercars are putting the ring record out of reach for any 140K car, so you agree with the majority on that decision.

The Gen V ACR needs to run the ring to remind everyone just how fast these things are. The Gen IV ACR beat all the hyper cars of it's time on the same lousy budget that Dodge has always had which is what makes it that much cooler.

The OP was addressing the overall changes that would need to be made to the production cars to compete at that level and the price of that vehicle once it would be produced. The cost of actually taking vehicles over there, renting the track, and running the attempts are expensive (ask Tomball Dodge) but not out of this world for a major manufacturer.

I think you build an ACR similar to what we have now, add the aero, better tires, brakes, and let it fly. A set of carbon ceramic brakes, and possibly a DC paddle shift trans and I bet it could do some damage to the old ring time. I think a target time of the old ACRX time would be a great benchmark to shoot for.

And I know you are new to the Viper scene but there are a lot of owners that track their cars, more so than you would think even if it's only a few times a year.

[JonB ~ PartsRack]

RingRecord:

1) Pride of ownership (a lot of informed enthusiats KNOW the N'Ring and Laguna records. Time Decal is a conversation starter).
2) Inspiration to buy one = marketing value to sell a handful.
3) SRT Team Morale builder extraodinaire. Builder / designer pride. A 1000% cargasm at CTC-FREC-CAAP.
4) Low cost; [but an all-in roll of the dice due to weather etc.]


And about drivers-aids-nannies: Lottsa nannyfied cars in wrecking yards. Stupid mistakes / mechanical breaks / tire ignorance.

[slitherv10]

Well here's my .02 cents,

I had mentioned in another post here about the race car division and how it took a lot of the money away from enhancing this car more as an everyday driver with balls and less of a race car on the track. I'm sure a lot more money is spent there than testing a car around a track. The original poster is emphasizing that the importance of this car should be targeted toward the daily driver and not the race car driver. I totally agree. When you invent or introduce a product, you market it to the many, not the few. The many here are the daily drivers/cruisers/road racers. Excuse the road racing thing but lets admit it, a lot of us have punched this car many times on the street be it beside a vette or another competitor, but, we have. On that note, proving that a car can blister a time around a track means nothing to people who buy this car for 90% street use. There will never be a time on the street where you will reach the speeds and similar circumstance that the Nurburgring offers. So, why care? I would care more about the 0-60 time as that would affect me more on the street than the sub 7 time on the track which I will never reach.
This brings me to the earlier point. Take the money out of the race division and use it to produce what the BIG market is asking for. The market that is asking for an ACR car which should prove itself on the street. By on the street I mean, the look ( that's a given), the sound, the short burst of power, some of the "needed" amenities, and the choice of custom cars for the individual as most ACRs have always been but in this case let the customer decide its character. Make them exclusive and personal.
Make the car with all the traits that got it to this point in the early years ( the HP , and performance) and put it back 2 steps ahead of the competition where it belongs and you'll bring back the fear and wow factor it always had. This alone will show the world that the Viper is back. Not the track time at Nurburgring or the position it places at the ALMS. Those are not what brought the Viper to the king of the Hill status back then. Infact, the Viper didn't win big until the 98-2000 years anyway. From 92-97 the Viper built its status from the drivers car, it didn't need a race division or track time. it sold out because of what it was not what it could do there.
The money to make the ACR is there if they regroup and focus on the bigger market. Us ! Once its established again and regains its fear among the rest, then and only then do you bring back the race division. Until then, build it to tear up the streets once again and put fear in their (competitions) eyes again.

[commandomatt]

Nannies can certainly fail, no question. But I'm guessing there's a reason why they are legally mandated is all

No....Its actually You...The driver, that fail. The nannies are there to try to help you from making mistakes but can only help you to a certain point.

...and of course. Everything that is legally mandated is in place because it makes sense (wow!....enter sheep)

Matt

[Late Apex]

Hey Chuck where are you on this nanny stuff? You here or still just on the VCA. LOL. We need you here too

[Newport Viper]

RingRecord:

The Vipers time has come and gone there.
The McLaren P1 will put it out of reach. http://cars.mclaren.com/p1.html
A 640HP Gen V Viper with aero.... is not enough HP to break 7 seconds.
The tires the Gen V has now won't cut it.

I suggest if you haven't driven it..... you get on a plane this summer and do it before it is sold. TRUST me. You want to go drive it. It's was worth every euro.
The Ring will be gone before you know it so the records won't matter much longer anyways. http://www.autoblog.com/2013/03/18/n...y-165-million/

[ACR Steve]

Ok you guys heard It first here ACRSteve's prediction when tested the future ACR will break the 7:00 barrier at the Ring
Why?
1) Ralph will make sure it does- I have 100% confidence in him- He gets all this stuff better then we do ,hes a car guy 110%
2) New car is as fast without aero- we know at a track like the Ring aero is worth 6-8 seconds at the very least
3) tires the car comes with will be better
4) Car will be lighter then the stock car and stiffer
5) This time we will have more lap time
6) I think it might have a little more HP over the current car

We may not be the fastest ever but we will break 7 minutes - you guys heard it first

[viperdan]

Ok you guys heard It first here ACRSteve's prediction when tested the future ACR will break the 7:00 barrier at the Ring
Why?
1) Ralph will make sure it does- I have 100% confidence in him- He gets all this stuff better then we do ,hes a car guy 110%
2) New car is as fast without aero- we know at a track like the Ring aero is worth 6-8 seconds at the very least
3) tires the car comes with will be better
4) Car will be lighter then the stock car and stiffer
5) This time we will have more lap time
6) I think it might have a little more HP over the current car

We may not be the fastest ever but we will break 7 minutes - you guys heard it first

1000% nailed it Steve! I couldn't agree more!!!

[mjorgensen]

Well here's my .02 cents,

I had mentioned in another post here about the race car division and how it took a lot of the money away from enhancing this car more as an everyday driver with balls and less of a race car on the track. I'm sure a lot more money is spent there than testing a car around a track. The original poster is emphasizing that the importance of this car should be targeted toward the daily driver and not the race car driver. I totally agree. When you invent or introduce a product, you market it to the many, not the few. The many here are the daily drivers/cruisers/road racers. Excuse the road racing thing but lets admit it, a lot of us have punched this car many times on the street be it beside a vette or another competitor, but, we have. On that note, proving that a car can blister a time around a track means nothing to people who buy this car for 90% street use. There will never be a time on the street where you will reach the speeds and similar circumstance that the Nurburgring offers. So, why care? I would care more about the 0-60 time as that would affect me more on the street than the sub 7 time on the track which I will never reach.
This brings me to the earlier point. Take the money out of the race division and use it to produce what the BIG market is asking for. The market that is asking for an ACR car which should prove itself on the street. By on the street I mean, the look ( that's a given), the sound, the short burst of power, some of the "needed" amenities, and the choice of custom cars for the individual as most ACRs have always been but in this case let the customer decide its character. Make them exclusive and personal.
Make the car with all the traits that got it to this point in the early years ( the HP , and performance) and put it back 2 steps ahead of the competition where it belongs and you'll bring back the fear and wow factor it always had. This alone will show the world that the Viper is back. Not the track time at Nurburgring or the position it places at the ALMS. Those are not what brought the Viper to the king of the Hill status back then. Infact, the Viper didn't win big until the 98-2000 years anyway. From 92-97 the Viper built its status from the drivers car, it didn't need a race division or track time. it sold out because of what it was not what it could do there.
The money to make the ACR is there if they regroup and focus on the bigger market. Us ! Once its established again and regains its fear among the rest, then and only then do you bring back the race division. Until then, build it to tear up the streets once again and put fear in their (competitions) eyes again.

If this defines "street use" and what new cars should be measured by then the most popular form of racing right now is not drag racing, but roll racing 40-120 or 150 times are what really show street performance since they reduce the 2wd/4wd factors IMHO.

[VPRPWRD]

If this defines "street use" and what new cars should be measured by then the most popular form of racing right now is not drag racing, but roll racing 40-120 or 150 times are what really show street performance since they reduce the 2wd/4wd factors IMHO.

I agree with this, also eliminates driver somewhat, because launching a stick shift car takes lots of practice IMO.

[rw99]

As Mark points out above, stock-for-stock, the AWD DCT cars own the street. Really not up for debate, unless you specify roll racing.

As for the road course, there's really no need to immediately go "all-in" for a 'Ring visit. The previous ACR set all sorts of track records here in the US (many of us probably have that "record tour" shirt ); all SRT has to do is start at the neighborhood tracks with the Gen V ACR. If you can't go sub-1:58.5 at Miller (where the benchmarks are Kuno in the Gen IV ACR 1:59.995 and Jan Magnussen in the old ZR1 2:03.86), you're probably not going to get a 7:06 or lower at the 'Ring. Maybe a lower-altitude track would be a better site, but my point is you've got a bunch of benchmarks from the previous ACR that are simple, domestic excursions.

[Resident Alien]

I wonder how much of that P1's 7 figure price tag is explained by mark-up and how much by new hybrid tech R&D divided over an extremely low volume item that still needs to make a profit. We have yet to see official Ring times for the P1 and LaFerrari and we know they both already tested there. Rumor has it P1 did a 7.03. But why let objective data (or lack thereof) get in the way of our intimidation by price tags.

Meanwhile a $100k car did a 6.48 lap a long time ago. Yes it is not road legal and weighs next to nothing but I consider an ACR much closer in DNA to that Radical than to today's space age uber-hyper-super-duper billionaire toys driven by flux capacitors.

[ACRucrazy]

If there is any truth to this..

http://bridgetogantry.com/2/index.ph...ren-p1-under-7

There's a McLaren dealer going in across from our Porsche dealership. In talking with those guys they said they contacted the manufacturer about the ring time as they have sold some P1's and the customers want to know. McLaren told them the P1 ran a 6:47 on street tires and a 6:33 on slicks. The only reason there holding back on releasing the time is because there waiting for Ferrari to release the LaFerrari's time first so Ferrari doesn't use their time as a benchmark and try and go beat it"

[ViperSmith]

I wonder how much of that P1's 7 figure price tag is explained by mark-up and how much by new hybrid tech R&D divided over an extremely low volume item that still needs to make a profit. We have yet to see official Ring times for the P1 and LaFerrari and we know they both already tested there. Rumor has it P1 did a 7.03. But why let objective data (or lack thereof) get in the way of our intimidation by price tags.

Meanwhile a $100k car did a 6.48 lap a long time ago. Yes it is not road legal and weighs next to nothing but I consider an ACR much closer in DNA to that Radical than to today's space age uber-hyper-super-duper billionaire toys driven by flux capacitors.

They haven't sold them all yet apparently. There are a few slots open.

I see McLaren building this to sell the 12C. "Look what McLaren is capabible of"

I love the 12C and hope to grab one eventually... If the "Baby Mac" comes out in 2015, I'll be ordering.

If it ran the 6:47, I just don't see how SRT can come close. I will be gladly proven wrong, but that is a STAGGERING time.

[Resident Alien]

They haven't sold them all yet apparently. There are a few slots open.

I see McLaren building this to sell the 12C. "Look what McLaren is capabible of"

I love the 12C and hope to grab one eventually... If the "Baby Mac" comes out in 2015, I'll be ordering.

If it ran the 6:47, I just don't see how SRT can come close. I will be gladly proven wrong, but that is a STAGGERING time.

Agreed, if there is any truth to the 6.33 and 6.47 times, that would be absolutely mind-blowing and put the P1 out of the reach of any road legal or barely road legal Viper. That video surely looks impressive.

[TrackAire]

Agreed, if there is any truth to the 6.33 and 6.47 times, that would be absolutely mind-blowing and put the P1 out of the reach of any road legal or barely road legal Viper. That video surely looks impressive.

Don't believe everything you read or hear. Per another website that has an industry insider "McLaren's position is that they won't be telling anyone because they think chasing lap times under variable conditions with no verification process is fruitless."

So McLaren might be fast, they just won't say how fast, lol. Can you even buy a P1 in the USA yet (not order, but actually drive the dang thing)? The car would be a failure if it did not go under the 7 minute mark, but I would love to see an attempt with a "production" version this summer. Pre-production cars can be very different than the consumer model.

George

[FLATOUT]

That P1 Video is ungodly awesome! Damn I want one, everything that the 12C doesn't do for me the P1 does.

Truly an amazing accomplishment.

[VRYALT3R3D]

SVT’s Jamal Hameedi Weighs-In With His Opinion of The 2013 GT500 @ The Nürburgring

Ring times! Oh man don't even get me started on this topic. Our (my) view is that there is no such thing as an official manufacturer Ring time. The times being posted by many manufacturers are in my humble opinion akin to qualifying times being set at a race with no pre/post inspection (ie it would never happen). In the racing world - inspection/verification is a key part of the sport. In order for us to set an "official" time corner weights would have to be taken, calibration checksums need to be verified, engine power verified via chassis rolls, a hoist inspection, and probably a fuel sample taken by an independent 3rd party like a governing/sanctioning body. I would love to see this since everyone seems to be infatuated with Ring times. Having said that, I think it's really important that performance cars be judged against one another on the track - but the comparisons really need to be on the same day by a professional driver (just track condition from day to day puts another huge variable in comparisons). We have seen lap time spreads of over 3 sec with same car same driver different day at VIR. Now extrapolate that to a track with a 7 min lap time. Motor Trend collects cars on the same day and puts a professional driver behind the wheel - not journalists whose driving ability puts yet another huge variable in lap times - and compares vehicles same driver same day. I think they do it correctly. So does Auto Motor und Sport in Germany.

The reason we test at the Ring is because it is a fantastic venue for doing vehicle dynamics work. You get so much different content in terms of turns, elevation, etc that you would need to visit 5 different tracks to duplicate it. It's also a chance for our North American vehicle dynamics guys to cross pollinate with our Team RS guys since we are all one group now. Team RS gets a chance to offer feedback on the RWD cars and the SVT guys offer perspective on the FWD cars. That's really powerful and worth spending the money to send cars and engineers over there. Renting the Ring exclusively ($$$$$!) to make a video - not so much. I'd rather put that money into the car.

I know this isn't what the internet bench racers want to hear. As soon as there is a standard for measuring lap times - our performance vehicles will be the first in line to get tested. Until then - it's just marketing and a total free for all. They are very cool to watch though. Lol. The 2013/2014 GT500 sold just fine without a published Ring time (who could have imagined!). Actually we spent a lot of time trying to figure out how to make more GT500s due to high demand. I've seen other performance cars with published Ring times being offered with incentives and cash on the hood (again - who could have imagined!). So I sleep pretty well at night. And spend my days (and nights) working on the next slayer vs. worrying about Ring times.

Hopefully this gives you some perspective on where our minds are at wrt Ring times.
See you at SEMA!

Jamal

Same thing applies to the Viper imo

[rw99]

McLaren active rear wing is sooooo cool...

[VRYALT3R3D]

McLaren active rear wing is sooooo cool...

x2

After market created an active wing for the Corvette

http://aeromotions.com/

Maybe a part for the Viper can be created if their is sufficient demand.

[Newport Viper]

That P1 Video is ungodly awesome!

That Video really shows what it like to be there! One of my best travel experiences ever!

The compression and rebound you need in a car for that track is staggering. See 1:20

[FLATOUT]

SVT’s Jamal Hameedi Weighs-In With His Opinion of The 2013 GT500 @ The Nürburgring



Same thing applies to the Viper imo

Doesn't surprise me that a Pony Car manufacturer would try to discredit the ring times. It like Ferrari or Lambo saying 1/4 mile times are worthless because their cars are capable of so much more, while a GT500 engineer would trumpet their factory drag car running 10.9's stock.

The one thing I do agree with is that it's all about marketing once the data is used to make the cars better.

- - - Updated - - -

That Video really shows what it like to be there! One of my best travel experiences ever!

The compression and rebound you need in a car for that track is staggering. See 1:20

I watch the ACR ring DVD all the time lol.