First issue with my 2013 gts: Hard to select reverse, thoughts?

[lochnessmonster]

Hey everyone,

I'm a little over a month into ownership, and my car has been awesome, but yesterday an issue arose with selecting reverse. I've searched for a diagnosis of the issue, but I haven't found anything Viper specific, and the other information I have found is not all that helpful. Here's the deal:

When I go to select reverse, after having been in first year, i.e. come to a stop and then reverse into a parking space, I press the clutch all the way to the floor, move the shift lever over all the way to the right, and try and push it forward into reverse. The back up camera comes on, but about 50% of the time, I cant get it to go all the way in. If I lift my foot up on the clutch about 2", that's all it takes, it drops right into reverse. Also, if I come to a stop, put the car in neutral and let my foot out on the clutch, so the transmission is spinning, then press my foot in on the clutch and quickly select reverse, it really clunks harshly. I've only done this a couple of times. It's something I don't remember ever happening before. Also, the car shifts perfectly in all the forward gears. This is only a reverse issue.

Now, to be honest, I was out driving it really hard with a buddy just prior to this issue arising, and when I went to go from 4th to 5th under really hard acceleration (i.e. redline shift) I couldn't get the shifter into 5th. In my haste, I pushed fairly hard to get it up into gear, and heard a very brief bad sound. I looked down and went, "oh s#@t, I think I just tried to put this thing in reverse", and just went back to 4th. It seemed that way, because I think the shift lever was further over to the right than it should be, but it all happened really fast so I'm not certain, and when I tried to duplicate it again (i.e. move the lever further over to the right past the 5th gate, not up into reverse), the reverse lock out wouldn't let me even get past the 5th gate, so perhaps I was mistaken.

In any event, I've done some research on the Tremec TR-6060, and it appears as though the transmission has a synchromeshed reverse gear, which is somewhat unique. I have read that the problem could be that the synchromesh in reverse isn't working properly, which would require the transmission to be taken apart to fix. I've also read that it could be a bent shift fork, or that the clutch isn't fully disengaging. With respect to the clutch, I think it is fully disengaging, because I have to lift my foot up a bit to get the transmission spinning to allow me to select reverse.

Has anyone else run into this problem? It's not a huge deal, because as I say, it only happens about 50% of the time, and even then, I can easily select reverse by lifting my foot a bit. But it is annoying, and since the car is absolutely flawless, and is on warranty, I am going to have it looked at. The problem is, I live a long way away from the dealership. I have a scheduled appointment on July 13th in Vancouver for the R14 door handle recall, and two others, which I'm having done when I go out to visit my folks, but I'm not in town long enough for any major work to be done. I just got off the phone with the service manager at Willowbrook Chrysler, and he told me to call back tomorrow at 10:00 am when one of the Viper techs is in. But he did state that they would have to diagnose the issue themselves before he would even order parts in, which sucks, because I was hoping that this is something they could figure out in advance through my description of the problem, and be ready to deal with it in the limited time I am in Vancouver.

If this is simply an "adjustment issue" that I can handle on my own, then I'd prefer to do that. Also, if it's an issue of replacing the transmission fluid (the car only has 2500 km on it) then that is something I will do myself. I just feel terrible that I may have caused this problem. Thoughts?

[swexlin]

Perhaps a bent shift fork? Grasping at straws here. Let your tech take a look at it. As an aside, you have an appoint for the door handle recall, so parts ARE available? I got my letter a couple weeks ago, but it said that I had to wait until I received another that parts are available. As I still have to get my airbag recall done as well.

Please keep us posted on what your shift issue is.

[Gonabite]

Just about the same circumstance (hard driving powershifting) and problems ( hard to put in reverse and other gears as well) my friend had with his tranny on a 14. Dodge replaced the tranny.

[lochnessmonster]

Hi guys,

Yeah, I guess I'll have to wait until next month to find out what they are going to do. Could be bent shift fork or reverse synchromesh. I'm not sure. I'm pretty certain it isn't a clutch issue, or I would think I'd have trouble in the forward gears too. From what I've read the forward gears have carbon synchromeshes and the reverse has a brass synchromesh.

With respect to the door handle parts, I just received the letter a couple of days ago, and I didn't note that I had to wait for another letter, although I might have missed that. I'm going to ask the service manager this morning whether or not the parts are available when I call to discuss the transmission issue. I'm getting the previous recalls dealt with then as well, since the previous owner didn't do them. I'll keep you posted on what they decide to do with the transmission. Surely I'm not the only one to experience this problem.

Edit - Now that I think about it. If it was a bent shift fork, I would think it would happen all the time. I am starting to think it is an issue with the synchromesh for reverse, since that is exactly what the problem is. The gears aren't "meshing" when I go to put it in reverse, so letting up a bit on the clutch allows them to mesh......hmmm.... As you can tell, I'm no transmission expert.

[Jack B]

A few thoughts:

1. Possible reverse lockout issue.

2. Not exactly related, but, a twin disk clutch might release near the top, but, drags several inches below the perceived release point. My point is, if the clutch is not at the floor, it may appear to shift hard.

[lochnessmonster]

Hi Jack B

Thanx for your thoughts. It's not a reverse lock out issue, because I am able to get the shifter all the way over to the reverse gate (past the reverse lock out) and forward half way with the back-up camera lighting up. I just can't get it the rest of the distance. My foot is all the way to the floor when I try to select reverse. The only way to get it in is to let the clutch up from the floor a few inches to spin the transmission, and that allows reverse to be selected. Also the car shifts perfectly in all the forward gears. I have no issue with 1 through 6, just reverse. I am going to call Tremec right now and see what they have to say. I'll report back.

Edit - Hi everyone, I just got off the phone with Dale at Tremec. He indicated to me that the issue I am having is completely normal due to the size of the gears they use in our transmission. Essentially, when I go to put the car in reverse, the teeth are meeting up at the same place, and when I let the clutch out a bit, the input shaft turns allowing them to mesh together. This is not a flaw with the transmission, but simply a "characteristic" due to the stout nature of the teeth on the gears. He indicated that it is also a common issue with larger trucks etc. that have very large teeth on the gears, and they have trouble getting the car into first because the teeth are so large. At the end of the day, I have to accept it as a normal characteristic of the transmission. Case closed

Edit - With reference to swexlin's question regarding the availability of the parts to remedy the R14 recall, he is correct. I just got off the phone with Willowbrook Chrysler in Langley, B.C., and Preet, the service manager, indicated to me that her computer stated, "The parts needed to remedy this recall are currently unavailable, and FCA is making every effort to make them available as soon as possible." She indicated that a second letter would be sent out, just like swexlin said, and she would keep an eye out to see if they are available between now and when I take the car in.

[swexlin]

I would still have the car looked at. I have no issues at all ever finding reverse (knock wood, not to jinx myself!), and I do a lot of back and forth (1st to reverse) positioning the car in my tight garage. Not to alarm you, but what you are describing doesn't seem right., no matter what Tremec says.

[lochnessmonster]

Yeah, that is probably a good idea. I'll have them check it out and see what they think. I'll keep you posted.

[SRT BILL]

Monster, a technique I've used through the years with manuals transmissions is with clutch fully depressed go into a higher forward gear like 2nd or 3rd before reaching for the reverse gear. It seems to slow down the trans and you might find reverse easier. Good luck with this technique and would be curious as to you make out.

[lochnessmonster]

Hey Bill,

Yeah, I do that with my S2000. I had to tell the wife about it, as that is the car she drives now I would take the shifter and place it in second, then reverse when it bound, and wouldn't go into reverse directly from 1st. It is a good technique for sure. I tried this with the Viper, but it didn't help at all. It didn't provide any further "alignment" of the gears as it does in the S2000.

I hate to sound like I'm making a big deal out of nothing. If this were a $30K car, I would just live with it, which I have in my S2000 and STi, but the problem I have is that this car is a $123K car and it seems to me that something that expensive shouldn't have any issues at all, particularly when one of the reason's for purchasing it was that it has a warranty. Also, I didn't notice the car doing this before my "perceived screw up", and from what I understand, the TR-6060 is one of the rare manual transmissions (the only one I know of), that has a synchromeshed reverse gear for exactly this reason. The idea, as I understand it, is that the synchromesh is supposed to create friction between the two gears on each shaft so there is contact between them before they physically meet, thus slowing the rotation of the other gear, getting them spinning at the same rate, and allowing you to mate the two. What I don't understand, is how it would align the teeth of the two gears. So, when Dale at Tremec explained that the teeth in the TR-6060 are huge, and that explains why I need to rotate the input shaft on occasion to get the gears to mesh, I said fair enough.

In accordance with swexlin's advice, I called Willowbrook Chrysler over my lunch break, and told Preet the service manager that I would like them to have a look at it despite what Dale at Tremec has told me, since I haven't heard of others having this problem. She was very understanding, and said she would set a little extra time aside for a road test to allow me to show the tech what is happening if he is unable to duplicate it. I thought that was pretty cool.

[AZTVR]

I have almost no personal knowledge about transmissions; but, what I would do if it were my car would be to have the dealer confirm the issue. Then, if they had no suggestions, I would replace the transmission fluid. Couldn't hurt, and the simplest, cheapest thing to do that might relate to why two cars might perform differently if they saw different fluid operating conditions or break in periods. Just a suggestion. (I had this thought because I was watching a youtube video about a T56 trans where they pointed out that reverse synchronizer was brass while the others were some other alloy. Anyway, that made me think that different synchros could respond to fluid conditions differently. I don't know anything about the 6060 construction though.)

[lochnessmonster]

Good advice AZTVR. You're right. The reverse synchro is brass, and the others are carbon. I am going to see if I can get the car up on jack stands this weekend. If so, I'll let you guys know the results. Otherwise, I'll have to wait until next month in Vancouver where our house has a grease pit. Cheers.

[lochnessmonster]

Alright, just a follow-up on this issue. I spoke to a transmission specialist in Calagary this morning, because in light of swexlin's comments I wanted a second opinion. He said that it is totally normal and not worth tearing the transmission apart. There is a useful video on YouTube called "Learning about synchromesh gears" or something to that effect. The author is excellent, and clearly demonstrates what is happening in the transmission when the blocker ring indexes with the next gear. He also points out the situations where you might be "blocked out" of a gear, and why that might occur.

Thanx to the other people on this board, I was successful at removing the belly pan under the car. I had mistaken the Torx bolts for allen/hex bolts in the poor lighting when I initially was trying to take the belly pan off, and my fellow Viper enthusiasts set me straight. Again, that was a huge help. So, I have replaced the transmission fluid with Royal Purple Max ATF and I replaced the diff fluid while I was down there. I will report back as to whether or not this makes an improvement in shifting into reverse. It should be noted that the transmission fluid was supposed to be 1/4 inch below the fill hole, and it was more like 1/2 inch to 3/4 inch, so we will see if that was a factor. Also, I found it interesting that the "Fangs" logo was embossed into the back of my diff. I guess that is a carry over from the Gen IV. Interesting.....

[ViperSmith]

Fangs was in the 2013's and I think 2014's and is now "SRT" on the 2015's!

[lochnessmonster]

Gotcha.

[SRT BILL]

Monster good luck with the oil change idea. A few year back I changed the trans oil in my Harley over to Spectro heavy duty platinum full synthetic transmission oil for the 6 speed HD transmissions and it made a terrific difference. The trans now shifts cleaner and no clunk when going into gear from neutral. I do realize this is NOT apples to apples but can't hurt the way I see it..

[dasvolk]

My now-bought-back '14 SRT had a bad reverse gear hub and would grind going into reverse unless I put it in first before the shift. I also happen to think that the clutch hydraulics in these cars could probably be a lot better than they are.

[Jack B]

The hydraulics (slave) is basically the same since 93.

My now-bought-back '14 SRT had a bad reverse gear hub and would grind going into reverse unless I put it in first before the shift. I also happen to think that the clutch hydraulics in these cars could probably be a lot better than they are.

[lochnessmonster]

Just a report back. I have not experienced a block out since the fluid change. Although it's only been a day, I have tried to use reverse about 6 times with no block out. I will see what happens over the next few days and I'll let everyone know if the transmission fluid helped. Unfortunately, I'm not going to be able to attribute an improvement to Royal Purple alone, since the transmission seemed to be low from the outset. So it isn't clear whether or not it was the RP or ensuring that the transmission had an adequate amount of fluid.