Tracking a Gen 3

[Stealth78]

So I have been warned multiple times now about tracking my car with the original oiling system. I've been told to convert to a Gen 4 system, swinging versus fixed pump??? I'm assuming I need to pull the motor fro this, no? Has anyone heard of using a Masterlube system or an Accusump instead? Thanks in advance!

[XSnake]

No, you just need to drop the oil pan.

[Stealth78]

No, you just need to drop the oil pan.

Cool, thanks. Do you know how much this is? Is it a direct swap?

[Steve M]

I'd contact Dan Lesser (Viper Specialty Performance) - I don't think it is a straightforward, 1 for 1 swap, but I also don't think it requires a PhD in engineering to accomplish.

[RedTanRT/10]

Dan at Viper Specialties builds a Gen IV swing arm integrated into a Gen III pan. So its' a direct swap and you can re-use the gasket.

Dodge also sells a version built for the comp coupe, but Dan's is a better system.

You need a lift but very straightforward, but get ready to have oil drip on you!

Here's a link for pricing, Dan will tell you that Dodge upped the price of the base pan by something like $700.00 In the good old days this was a priced at $1,200.00


http://viperspecialtyperformance.com...products_id=97

[Stealth78]

Dan at Viper Specialties builds a Gen IV swing arm integrated into a Gen III pan. So its' a direct swap and you can re-use the gasket.

Dodge also sells a version built for the comp coupe, but Dan's is a better system.

You need a lift but very straightforward, but get ready to have oil drip on you!

Here's a link for pricing, Dan will tell you that Dodge upped the price of the base pan by something like $700.00 In the good old days this was a priced at $1,200.00


http://viperspecialtyperformance.com...products_id=97

HOLY CRAP!!!!!! I definitely wasn't expecting this to cost this much........

[RedTanRT/10]

HOLY CRAP!!!!!! I definitely wasn't expecting this to cost this much........

Talk to Dan, maybe he can sell at a reduced price? I'll tell you the market for a used comp coupe pan is $800 - $1,000 plus if you can find one. BTW, a used stock III pan is about as valuable as a stock used hood.

Yeah, their expensive but I've witnessed 3 Gen III's blow motors without them. On a fast sweeper with slicks, you can probably kill a motor in 2 sessions! If you buy one you can get at least 50% of the price back if you take it off and sell your car, used ones sell fast. Good luck! Mike

[Joel]

Put one on my car with no problems but I would get Dan's oil cooler lines at the same time because it is easy to put them on when you drop the pan and not so easy otherwise - and the stock oil lines will leak. You can have your pan modified and he might do a swap or give you something for your old pan. JonB sells them too. An Accusump will help but you have to have somewhere to put the reserve tank - it takes up a good bit of space and plumbing. If you are running stock tires, you can overfill your car with 1/2+ quart to help but if you go to slicks, you'll need protection if you keep the car in a turn for a while and pull some real g's. The sump sounds pricey till you figure a motor replacement at $10,000+. As the old sayin' goes - speed costs money. How fast you wanna go?

HOLY CRAP!!!!!! I definitely wasn't expecting this to cost this much........

[Viper Specialty]

Sorry guys... blame Mopar for the price of this one. The price of the Oil Pan ALONE is 1550.00, before adding in the pickup, other components or our modifications. As soon as we started selling lots of these, they jacked the price of the pan. Typical Mopar move.

Once in a while I come across a used pan, but that doesn't help a ton, as they are still high demand regardless.

[Stealth78]

Wow... not to sound like "Debbie Downer" but I'm starting to re-think making my Gen 3 into a part time track car. I love my car but I have to weigh the costs and be a realist. I'm starting to think I should have held out and bought a Gen 4. By the time I upgrade my diff, oil pump, and do every bolt-on to even come close to the power output of a stock Gen 4, then I think I would already be into it for as much or more than just upgrading to a Gen 4.... Sad but true. My car only has 14K miles on it and I just put brand new Michelin's on all four corners, so I'm really not to thrilled to sell it. I believe I have some thinking to do. Someone in one of the previous posts said something about running slicks and the G's that the car would be pulling on the corners, would I still have this oil pick-up issue if I was to be running on street tires for now???

[RedTanRT/10]

Stealth, yeah you can list those items and say a G4 might have been a better deal. but, you can certainly have alot of fun tracking a G3 and the trans and rear end will be fine. If you're going to part time track your G3, get the pan, track wheels/tires and a set of shocks (moton's, mcs, penske's) and you"ll have a great track car.

If you decide to keep tracking and want more power, buy a stock G4 and use your track wheels and performance shocks. As I mentioned before, you can probably get 1/2 of what you paid for the pan back on re-sale.

Then the next level is to add headers/exhaust/intake on to a G4, plus ACR aero (or buy a ACR). Believe me, there is always more and more $$$'s

As for the pan, G3's can and do lose motors on the track do to oiling issues. Anyone on here that says it's OK is taking a guess and won't give you a guarantee. Best wishes! Mike

[Tiago]

I have a Comp Coupe pan/pick up setup for a Gen 3 sitting around that should be a lot easier to install than the Gen 4 kit. If anyone is looking for one let me know

[Stealth78]

Stealth, yeah you can list those items and say a G4 might have been a better deal. but, you can certainly have alot of fun tracking a G3 and the trans and rear end will be fine. If you're going to part time track your G3, get the pan, track wheels/tires and a set of shocks (moton's, mcs, penske's) and you"ll have a great track car.

If you decide to keep tracking and want more power, buy a stock G4 and use your track wheels and performance shocks. As I mentioned before, you can probably get 1/2 of what you paid for the pan back on re-sale.

Then the next level is to add headers/exhaust/intake on to a G4, plus ACR aero (or buy a ACR). Believe me, there is always more and more $$$'s

As for the pan, G3's can and do lose motors on the track do to oiling issues. Anyone on here that says it's OK is taking a guess and won't give you a guarantee. Best wishes! Mike

Thanks for your honesty bud! I have some thinking to do...

[witz323]

i have a comp coupe pan/pick up setup for a gen 3 sitting around that should be a lot easier to install than the gen 4 kit. If anyone is looking for one let me know

pm sent

[Stealth78]

I have a Comp Coupe pan/pick up setup for a Gen 3 sitting around that should be a lot easier to install than the Gen 4 kit. If anyone is looking for one let me know

Forgive me for my lack of knowledge but what is the difference? How much are you looking to get for that if that is what I am looking for?

[Stealth78]

pm sent

Wow, thanks for the high-jack.... looks like you beat me to the punch by about 10 seconds.

[Tiago]

Forgive me for my lack of knowledge but what is the difference? How much are you looking to get for that if that is what I am looking for?

according to Dan it is not as "articulated" as the gen 4 setup, but it is what is found in the gen3 comp coupes, if it worked good for them I would think it is pretty good for the average joe...

[Viper Specialty]

Forgive me for my lack of knowledge but what is the difference? How much are you looking to get for that if that is what I am looking for?

To boil it down, the G4 based setups swing both right and left, the Comp Coupe only swings right. The Comp Coupe Pan is a modified Gen-3 pan, the Gen-4 pan is an all new design specifically for an articulating pickup.

There is no difference in installation, only in initial cost. The G4 based package is indeed better, but either is far better than nothing.

[Viper Specialty]

PS- Regarding the Gen-3/4 arguments, just keep in mind a few things:

If you start "upgrading" your Gen-3, you are technically matching, and in many cases surpassing the Gen-4. Differential is a good example. G4 GKN is good, but its not as good as an OS, Quaife, or Wavetrac.

If you like to modify your car, you can get a Gen-3 to 700+ easily. The costs to get a Gen-4 to 700 are not very different from getting a Gen-3 to 700 [depending how its done of course], and the Gen-3 will tend to be less hassle doing it due to the camshaft design in G4+.

As I always say... for the cost difference Gen-3 to 4, you can do a LOT to a Gen-3. For example [just off the top of my head], a basic VS-X700 package w/oil pan, a TR6060 upgrade, and a Wavetrac, will set you back a little over 20K after selling some of the easy take-off parts. If you factor in that 15-25K is the difference between Gen-3 and 4, that's reasonable. The end result is a Gen-3 that makes 725 horsepower, the main oiling issue is solved, it looks better than a Gen-4 under the hood, and has a drivetrain better than Gen-4... for a very comparable cost. That's a ONE HUNDRED AND TWENTY FIVE horsepower advantage, for nearly the same cost! The rest of the car is so similar [short of the hood] that you would never notice the difference.

Just my opinion... they are both great platforms to work from, and you cannot go wrong either way.

[Joel]

You need to do a couple of HPDE events to get started. NASA has a great HPDE program and in HPDE 1 you will have an instructor familiar with your car. You won't go fast enough to hurt your car in these events with stock tires - just overfill oil a bit. I did 3 HPDE's with my Gen3 before I put the oil pan on it. It is a lot of fun and you learn a lot about your car. Most of us can't drive any Viper near its limits - just keep that in mind. There are folks on the forums who track their cars a lot and if you get to that point, you need to upgrade lots of things, not just your oil pan. Don't get in a hurry to make mods you don't need. Do an HPDE event and then see how you feel. I liked it so much I bought a track car. Older ITS Honda. Cheap and safe. If I wad it up, it is lots less expensive than my Viper. I still track the Viper occasionally but it does get expensive. Just my 2 cents.

Wow, thanks for the high-jack.... looks like you beat me to the punch by about 10 seconds.

[Stealth78]

You need to do a couple of HPDE events to get started. NASA has a great HPDE program and in HPDE 1 you will have an instructor familiar with your car. You won't go fast enough to hurt your car in these events with stock tires - just overfill oil a bit. I did 3 HPDE's with my Gen3 before I put the oil pan on it. It is a lot of fun and you learn a lot about your car. Most of us can't drive any Viper near its limits - just keep that in mind. There are folks on the forums who track their cars a lot and if you get to that point, you need to upgrade lots of things, not just your oil pan. Don't get in a hurry to make mods you don't need. Do an HPDE event and then see how you feel. I liked it so much I bought a track car. Older ITS Honda. Cheap and safe. If I wad it up, it is lots less expensive than my Viper. I still track the Viper occasionally but it does get expensive. Just my 2 cents.

Thanks bud, I appreciate your honesty. I had asked earlier if this would be as crucial of a mod if I was only going out on street tires for now but I didn't seem to get an answer on that. My buddy that I'm going to Palmer Motorsports Park with this Friday is an instructor. He tracks multiple different cars of his own outside of being an instructor, but he does not own a Viper. I do have to credit him for giving me a lot of useful information about tracking, but as I said he is not a "Viper Guy" (as of yet... tying to convert him. LOL!). Thanks again!

[J TNT]

Dan makes a lot of good points and is why I've taken a similar approach. fwiw.

PS- Regarding the Gen-3/4 arguments, just keep in mind a few things:

If you start "upgrading" your Gen-3, you are technically matching, and in many cases surpassing the Gen-4. Differential is a good example. G4 GKN is good, but its not as good as an OS, Quaife, or Wavetrac.

If you like to modify your car, you can get a Gen-3 to 700+ easily. The costs to get a Gen-4 to 700 are not very different from getting a Gen-3 to 700 [depending how its done of course], and the Gen-3 will tend to be less hassle doing it due to the camshaft design in G4+.

As I always say... for the cost difference Gen-3 to 4, you can do a LOT to a Gen-3. For example [just off the top of my head], a basic VS-X700 package w/oil pan, a TR6060 upgrade, and a Wavetrac, will set you back a little over 20K after selling some of the easy take-off parts. If you factor in that 15-25K is the difference between Gen-3 and 4, that's reasonable. The end result is a Gen-3 that makes 725 horsepower, the main oiling issue is solved, it looks better than a Gen-4 under the hood, and has a drivetrain better than Gen-4... for a very comparable cost. That's a ONE HUNDRED AND TWENTY FIVE horsepower advantage, for nearly the same cost! The rest of the car is so similar [short of the hood] that you would never notice the difference.

Just my opinion... they are both great platforms to work from, and you cannot go wrong either way.

- - - Updated - - -

[v10addiction]

I have tracked my 2006 Coupe since new, without issue.

Yes. in a long 180 degree corner you drop oil pressure considerably, so you run 1-1.5 quarts high in the pan an it goes away.
Normally in a corner, you are off the gas and the motor is coming down.

When you leave the corner the pan is flattening out and the oil is back.
They did not put the cars on the road to not be raced, trust me on this.

Even though the gauge reads a little low, it reacts very slow.
They didn't want you coming in for oil pressure problems that weren't problems.

[Viper Specialty]

I have tracked my 2006 Coupe since new, without issue.

Yes. in a long 180 degree corner you drop oil pressure considerably, so you run 1-1.5 quarts high in the pan an it goes away.
Normally in a corner, you are off the gas and the motor is coming down.

When you leave the corner the pan is flattening out and the oil is back.
They did not put the cars on the road to not be raced, trust me on this.

Even though the gauge reads a little low, it reacts very slow.
They didn't want you coming in for oil pressure problems that weren't problems.

2005/2006 has a higher reliability due to the new main bearing design. [yes, 03/04 can be upgraded, and there are upgrades even beyond the 05/06 style]

That said, you are not alone, but still consider yourself lucky. The dozens of engines through here with the same exact failures, and logging systems capable of recording what you cannot see do not lie.

[Bill Pemberton]

Sounds like you will be there at the first opening of Palmer and in all likelihood , especially with a brand new track , you will only be allowed to go in a Novice Class with an Instructor. The track will be green ( no high grip ) and you will just be getting adjusted to your car. The stock tires are fine and I would suggest a few extra pounds more in the front than in the rear as the car will push some with the 275s. Then if you have a great time and are serious do some of the things Dan has recommended. You definitely don't need to do it all at once , and an oil pan would be a good start and after that I would concentrate on more of the less expensive items till you decide if you are going to do this once or twice a year or get serious like many of us ( by less expensive I mean items like better brake pads ,etc. ) Hopefully you have flushed you brake system and put in a good DOT 4 prior to going this weekend - like Motul for instance.

Lots of good advice , but before you buy boots , a saddle, spurs, etc. you might want to ride the horse around the ring to see if it is something your want to do a lot?