Brake fading on my Gen2 at the track....Help/suggestions requested

[Arizona Vipers]

I'm racing in Nasa in Arizona. New racer, this was my 3rd event today and my brakes today were failing by lap 6 at Wild Horse Raceway East Track. I've got the big StopTech's on it. The first two events I ran, the brakes never faded this so I'm obviously getting faster. Today the brake pedal would literally hit the floor like mush on lap 5-6 and I'd do 1-2 more laps slower before exiting the track scared to death lo. My mechanic says I need brake ducting. Any recommendations? I just got back from the track a few hours ago and am about to surf Sean and Jon's websites seeing what's available..... Any experienced input would be appreciated so I don't buy the wrong product! Thanks!

[ACR_Matt]

Just curious, but do you think your brake fluid might be shot? Was it flushed before the last event? What type of fluid are you using? Does your Viper have ABS?

Have you seen these yet? http://www.ipsco.org/Viper_files/Por...lector_kit.htm

[Vprbite]

My first thought was absolutely about brake fluid. When was the last time you changed it? If your answer isn't "right before the event", then that is the first thing you should do. Replace that and see if the problem goes away. I have heard of brake fade in StopTechs but NEVER that quickly.

If you did 2 events with that fluid already and you may have been more "brake heavy" and simply boiled it up. I don't think brake ducting is ever a bad idea. But every two events might be as much as the fluid wants to take, especially if you are braking a lot as you learn the car and the tracks. Your brake fluid life is definitely dependent on your driving style.

Also, pads aren't what causes that fade you had but if you are tracking that much, are you running track pads?

[XSnake]

What pads and fluid are you using?

[JonB ~ PartsRack]

What he said: Fluid and pads fade away before StopTech rotors do, UNLESS you have long-session wheel-to-wheel races > 30 minutes, on full-race pads. Then you could overdrive ST Aeros after 25-30 minutes of a high-heat-range pads, like PFC-01 for example,

In fact, long-race-sessions in Viper Cup racing are why the ACR-X went to meatier, heavier Brembo FRONT rotors on the -X

So, PLEASE: edit your thread title to "Brake Fade ??" or some such?

Hundreds of owners will read your original [likely-untrue] thread title and read nothing else! Thank you.

[FrankBarba]

Forget about the porsche deflectors.....Waste of $$$ IMO. What Gen do you have.
did you add the Stop Techs? If not i see that in a previous post you said something to
the effect that you purchased this car , 1997 Viper, Won SCCA National Titles.
Have you spoken with the previous owner? There is where you will get your wealth of
information. It is easier to improve on what you currently have than start from scratch.

[Luisv]

I'm racing in Nasa in Arizona. New racer, this was my 3rd event today and my brakes today were failing by lap 6 at Wild Horse Raceway East Track. I've got the big StopTech's on it.. My mechanic says I need brake ducting.

Given what you mentioned, my guess would be along the lines of what was being mentioned already... you are likely boiling fluid. If it has heat cycled a great deal, then you need to replace.

I see you changed to Stoptechs... did you change the frame to caliper lines? If you left the stock lines 400+ degree fluid will make the stock lines pliable and you will feel a soft pedal. What brake fluid was used? If it has too low of a boiling point you can get into trouble.

If you don't have a good fluid I would look for a high temp brake fluid and flush the system with the newer high temp fluid. The one that I see all over the place is Castrol React SRF. It's pricey at over $60 for a bottle but well worth it as you will not need to worry about boiling fluid.

Brake ducting, as mentioned, never a bad thing, but you may want to try the obvious first.

[Arizona Vipers]

Guys you are right! We changed the fluid this morning and brakes kicked ass again. I had only done one event on that fluid and I'm not that fast yet so I didn't think I could cook the fluid in one event. Live and learn, I will use new brake fluid for every even from now on. Thanks guys!

[Arizona Vipers]

What he said: Fluid and pads fade away before StopTech rotors do, UNLESS you have long-session wheel-to-wheel races > 30 minutes, on full-race pads. Then you could overdrive ST Aeros after 25-30 minutes of a high-heat-range pads, like PFC-01 for example,


So, PLEASE: edit your thread title to "Brake Fade ??" or some such?

Hundreds of owners will read your original [likely-untrue] thread title and read nothing else! Thank you.

*****MODERATORS***** I tried to edit the subject and it's only letting me edit the body of the post. Can you please change my subject to "Gen 2 brakes fading".


Thanks.

[Vprbite]

Great to hear you found the problem.

Note, you said you didnt think you were fast enough to burn the brakes up. I think it is the other way around. As you get faster you will use the brakes less because you will be better at engine braking and you won't have to brake as much as you know what speed the car will hold going into a turn. I think when you are new and learning, you tend to brake unnecessarily

Interesting that Luisv mentioned about the lines. That could be helpful too.

First though, run a good high temp fluid, and try some more race oriented pads. I think then you will find those StopTechs are all you could want and more. Talk to Jon B about fluid and pad recommendations. He will get you all set up.

[Shooter]

Great to hear you found the problem.

Note, you said you didnt think you were fast enough to burn the brakes up. I think it is the other way around. As you get faster you will use the brakes less because you will be better at engine braking and you won't have to brake as much as you know what speed the car will hold going into a turn. I think when you are new and learning, you tend to brake unnecessarily

Interesting that Luisv mentioned about the lines. That could be helpful too.

First though, run a good high temp fluid, and try some more race oriented pads. I think then you will find those StopTechs are all you could want and more. Talk to Jon B about fluid and pad recommendations. He will get you all set up.

Actually, when you get faster, you use the brakes harder for a shorter time. If you are using engine braking, you are wasting time and getting passed.

[Fatboy 18]

I spent the weekend detailing my friends car, he has some brake cooling ducts fitted.

[Rapidrezults]

Nice job on the detailing, looks cleeeeeann!

[Vprbite]

Actually, when you get faster, you use the brakes harder for a shorter time. If you are using engine braking, you are wasting time and getting passed.

You're right. I guess what I meant is people learning tend to brake earlier, longer, and more often than needed. Soome times even in places where it's not needed.

Though once you are good that changes.

[GTS Dean]

Actually, when you get faster, you use the brakes harder for a shorter time. If you are using engine braking, you are wasting time and getting passed.

Truth. Speed comes with time on the throttle and not on the brakes.

[FrankBarba]

Smooth is good.....

[JonB ~ PartsRack]

*****MODERATORS***** I tried to edit the subject and it's only letting me edit the body of the post. Can you please change my subject to "Gen 2 brakes fading".


Thanks.

Thanks.... I think the mods will do this soon..... love to the mods.....

[whitebeard]

I edit done real good. Signed guy who can't proofread worth a dang.....

[JonB ~ PartsRack]

I remember whin yur beard wazznt whyte.....

[Leslie]

what fluid did you use?

I am a Motul 660 fan. I also bleed before every event.

[AZTVR]

what fluid did you use?

I am a Motul 660 fan. I also bleed before every event.

Do you do a complete flush, or something like just 6 pumps for each corner to get any bubbles out and highly heated fluid out of the calipers? That seemed like good enough for me; but, I was always in the intermediate group, and not uber fast. I always used Motul RBF 600. I just looked up this newer RBF 660 and it looks like it is only about 20F higher boiling point than RBF 600. A little misleading from the name of the product, LOL !

[Tom, F&L GoR]

Question: What's the only fluid in the car that doesn't get pumped, slung, or circulated so that it can cool off? Brake fluid. NASCAR guys found a way to do it with two brake lines; one to push fluid to the caliper and a second line to return fluid towards the master cylinder when you lift off the pedal. Everytime you step on the brakes, a portion of the fluid inside the caliper body is exchanged and so doesn't reach boiling temperatures. NASCAR did it with two one-way check valves, but now you can purchase single unit for about $200.

http://www.dpiracingproducts.com/lc-...re-circulator/ and click the diagram.

You'll need three flex brake lines for the fluid return. I measured out (and successfully used) two 22" and one 42" length on my Gen 1, which cost about $11-$13 per line. You'll need a "t" fitting and some other small hardware, which for me came up to about $90.

The difficult part is that you have to make the "T" yourself, since you can't buy them for Viper Brembo calipers. See the top image

http://pitstopusa.com/c-132389-brake...rculators.html

It was easy to make starting with an 8" metric line, bending to connect the two bleeder screw holes, then silver solder a AN-3 fitting in the right place. Obviously you want to make sure it's leakproof, headed in a direction so the brake line doesn't rub the wheel, and stiff enough that it doesn't break off. (Hint: solder on the fitting first, then drill the hole through the fitting and into the tube.)

The other "cool" thing is that now you can bleed all four bleeder screw locations of the front calipers at once by removing the return line to the valve. I had mine on for years of track events and never had a front boil issue return. Remarkably, the brake fluid also doesn't darken.

[Vprbite]

That sounds like a pretty damn good idea to me, Tom.

[My98RT10]

Gute Reise, Tom

[Tom, F&L GoR]

@Holger- vielen dank! Du auch.

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Viper Recirc.jpg

As a project, it's a lot cleaner, logical and effective than ducting.