Headers

[gfviperman]

Do we have any feedback from owners who have installed American Headers on the Gen Vs?

Are we getting and engine lights from them?

Any dyno numbers before and after?

Thankx!!

[mblgjr]

Rear 02s will need to be off via HP tuners software or use of Arrow PCM.

Havent seen but a couple sheets; worth about 30rwhp over a good tune. Tune+headers is approx 60rwhp total over stock.

Round figures.

Headers alone will set the c.e.l. and makes no sense to bother doing the headers without a proper a/f adjustment anyway.

[Dman]

Wow, really? If that's the case then Belangers has a real advantage in yielding 30rwhp and no CEL issues with stock tune. Add Venom or HPT and 60rwhp.

Not sure anyone would do AR headers if they give a CEL and there's no HP advantage.

[1.8t]

You should absolutely be able to use ARH headers with cats and not throw a CEL on the stock ECU. I will be doing exactly this.

As for installing them, HUGE pain in the ass. Bellangers install much easier. The 2 piece design is a nightmare and when you combine that with some QA issues, it makes me question if ARH was the right choice for me. Hopefully the numbers are worth it.

[FLATOUT]

Although 1.8t hates the install on the ARH's, I personally find them much easier to install than the Tri Y designs. I have installed every major brand header on a viper and multiple times, and I find the ARH's to be the easiest.

Both designs have their drawbacks as far as installs are concerned but both designs aren't difficult once you get a little experience installing them.

You should absolutely be able to use ARH headers with cats and not throw a CEL on the stock ECU. I will be doing exactly this.

As for installing them, HUGE pain in the ass. Bellangers install much easier. The 2 piece design is a nightmare and when you combine that with some QA issues, it makes me question if ARH was the right choice for me. Hopefully the numbers are worth it.

[Reaper]

Ive done some research on this as well since I want to add the AR headers to my car at some point. The AR headers are stainless steel and the Belangers are aluminized. Id much rather have stainless on an exhaust product. That and the AR headers seem to be cheaper. Im sure both will make nice gains over stock though but Im leaning AR. Ive seen some of their headers up close and the quality is first rate.

[Gonabite]

Although 1.8t hates the install on the ARH's, I personally find them much easier to install than the Tri Y designs. I have installed every major brand header on a viper and multiple times, and I find the ARH's to be the easiest.

Both designs have their drawbacks as far as installs are concerned but both designs aren't difficult once you get a little experience installing them.

Having used the ARH, do you get a CEL while using the stock ECM?

[FLATOUT]

Having used the ARH, do you get a CEL while using the stock ECM?

I pulled the cats and run HPTuners.

[Jack B]

Why do you prefer the SS?

Ive done some research on this as well since I want to add the AR headers to my car at some point. The AR headers are stainless steel and the Belangers are aluminized. Id much rather have stainless on an exhaust product. That and the AR headers seem to be cheaper. Im sure both will make nice gains over stock though but Im leaning AR. Ive seen some of their headers up close and the quality is first rate.

[Steve M]

Ive done some research on this as well since I want to add the AR headers to my car at some point. The AR headers are stainless steel and the Belangers are aluminized. Id much rather have stainless on an exhaust product. That and the AR headers seem to be cheaper. Im sure both will make nice gains over stock though but Im leaning AR. Ive seen some of their headers up close and the quality is first rate.

I see this stainless vs. aluminized steel debate a lot, and I'm not sure it is really justified on a car like a Viper. Very few people daily drive these cars, almost all of them never see the snow/salt, and the most moisture a lot of them sees comes from the end of a hose. The primary benefit of stainless is protection against corrosion, but I just don't see that being an issue with a Viper.

Personally, I can't stand how uncoated stainless headers look after a few heat cycles...that nasty rust brown color just doesn't look good at all under the hood. If I ever go with a stainless header, I'll likely have it coated just so I don't have to see it.

As long as the coating is good quality, aluminized steel will hold up just fine to the elements.

[Dman]

I see this stainless vs. aluminized steel debate a lot, and I'm not sure it is really justified on a car like a Viper. Very few people daily drive these cars, almost all of them never see the snow/salt, and the most moisture a lot of them sees comes from the end of a hose. The primary benefit of stainless is protection against corrosion, but I just don't see that being an issue with a Viper.

Personally, I can't stand how uncoated stainless headers look after a few heat cycles...that nasty rust brown color just doesn't look good at all under the hood. If I ever go with a stainless header, I'll likely have it coated just so I don't have to see it.

As long as the coating is good quality, aluminized steel will hold up just fine to the elements.

Agreed, maybe if we're talking a truck that's going to do 300K miles. I've had stainless and alum on all my different cars thru the years, if anything the stainless looks a little worse for wear, but I've never had them be disappointing in perf or looks with tens of thousands of miles, from vipers to mustangs to bimmers. I have had s coating fail years ago, which turned me off of coatings, but that I assume was just a bad coater issue. But, either way, we have great options.

I think the big question is if we're seeing CELs with ARH, I hadn't heard that before & am surprised if that's the case.

[FLATOUT]

I have never had a stainless steel header on any of my cars turn a "nasty rusty brown color".

I see this stainless vs. aluminized steel debate a lot, and I'm not sure it is really justified on a car like a Viper. Very few people daily drive these cars, almost all of them never see the snow/salt, and the most moisture a lot of them sees comes from the end of a hose. The primary benefit of stainless is protection against corrosion, but I just don't see that being an issue with a Viper.

Personally, I can't stand how uncoated stainless headers look after a few heat cycles...that nasty rust brown color just doesn't look good at all under the hood. If I ever go with a stainless header, I'll likely have it coated just so I don't have to see it.

As long as the coating is good quality, aluminized steel will hold up just fine to the elements.

[Steve M]

I have...you can see the primaries in this picture from my old Camaro:



Those were Kooks stainless headers. I'll see if I can find pics of them after I pulled them off.

[FLATOUT]

That doesn't look like rust to me, but heat cycled stainless.

I have...you can see the primaries in this picture from my old Camaro:



Those were Kooks stainless headers. I'll see if I can find pics of them after I pulled them off.

[ViperGeorge]

I'm installing Bellangers on my 2015 TA 2.0 once it gets here. I had ARH headers on my 09 ACR. Two problems with the ARH headers in my experience. One, leaks can develop where the collector mates to the manifold piece in their two piece design. This is a real pain in the a$$. Second, every single person I know that has had the ARH headers have cooked the wires to the downstream O2 sensors resulting in a CEL and blown ASD fuse. With the Mopar controller you can eliminate the downstream O2s but with the stock PCM you will eventually melt the wires and I don't care how well you insulate them. I used DEI 1500 degree wrap and they still melted. Not sure if you would have the same problem on a Gen 5.

[FLATOUT]

On my Gen V the down stream O2's are nowhere near being able to be "burned" by the turnout section. I also wrap my O2 wires in DEI 1500 on any brand of header, and also carefully route and tie everything out of the way to prevent that from happening. who knows but from running and installing all of the different brands over the years I will say that there are two major differences between the two styles that really matter to most as the all make VERY similar power.

1. Install ( I find the ARH's easier some find them harder, it is what it is)
2. Mild Steel vs. Stainless

Everything else is academic. As for the leaking at the collectors the only issue I ever had with leaks was on a Try Y header where the bolts loosened up at the collector to turnout. I have always had better luck with fasteners on the ARH's but that's just my experience.

Sometimes I think a lot of the problems that develop has to do with install tips and tricks that help prevent some of these issues as you put more miles on the cars.

I'm installing Bellangers on my 2015 TA 2.0 once it gets here. I had ARH headers on my 09 ACR. Two problems with the ARH headers in my experience. One, leaks can develop where the collector mates to the manifold piece in their two piece design. This is a real pain in the a$$. Second, every single person I know that has had the ARH headers have cooked the wires to the downstream O2 sensors resulting in a CEL and blown ASD fuse. With the Mopar controller you can eliminate the downstream O2s but with the stock PCM you will eventually melt the wires and I don't care how well you insulate them. I used DEI 1500 degree wrap and they still melted. Not sure if you would have the same problem on a Gen 5.

[KB Viper]

i have american racing headers on mine with high flow cats (everything ceramic coated) and a tune and i'm just at 600 to the tire on 91.

[ViperGeorge]

I also wrapped the wires with DEI 1500 and tied them as far from the exhaust as possible. On a Gen 4 this did not matter. I know of at least 3 others that have had the same exact problem. All 4 of us melted the wires and blew fuses. Even with the Mopar PCM installed if you melt the wires you will blow a fuse because the heater wire is still live even though the Mopar PCM doesn't look at the output of the downstream O2. Once you blow the ASD fuse the car will barely run. Steve Louden during One Lap melted his wires and threw 23 engine codes, he was using ARH headers with the Mopar PCM but had kept the downstream O2s in place. Once the O2s are removed the bung plugged there are no further problems. Maybe it is different on a Gen 5.

[FLATOUT]

Well melting an O2 wire has nothing to do with what ECU you run Mopar or stock. I ran them on my Gen IV and tracked the car with them and also never had an issue. They also run ARH headers on every ACRX that ran in the Viper cup series and I have never heard of this being some sort of systemic issue.

There is a finite amount of space in that area be it gen IV or V, and if you are running a 3 inch turnout pipe either ARH or Ballenger it will occupy the exact same amount of space. So your next issue then is does one brand put out more heat than another brand? Possibly? But again nothing is going to put out more heat than the ARH's that were on the ACRX Viper Cup cars and it wasn't an issue for them so who knows.

I can tell you that I have run my TA at COTA, Autocross, and the drag strip and the O2 wires look just like the day they did when I put them on.

I also wrapped the wires with DEI 1500 and tied them as far from the exhaust as possible. On a Gen 4 this did not matter. I know of at least 3 others that have had the same exact problem. All 4 of us melted the wires and blew fuses. Even with the Mopar PCM installed if you melt the wires you will blow a fuse because the heater wire is still live even though the Mopar PCM doesn't look at the output of the downstream O2. Once you blow the ASD fuse the car will barely run. Steve Louden during One Lap melted his wires and threw 23 engine codes, he was using ARH headers with the Mopar PCM but had kept the downstream O2s in place. Once the O2s are removed the bung plugged there are no further problems. Maybe it is different on a Gen 5.

[Steve M]

That doesn't look like rust to me, but heat cycled stainless.

Never said it was actual rust, but it sure as hell is rust colored, hence my description. Heat cycled stainless looks like garbage IMO...those headers were replaced by a ceramic coated set.

[FLATOUT]

Never said it was actual rust, but it sure as hell is rust colored, hence my description. Heat cycled stainless looks like garbage IMO...those headers were replaced by a ceramic coated set.

Understand, but for some reason mine don't look like that. Looks more like a Stainless Motorcycle exhaust.

[ViperGeorge]

Well melting an O2 wire has nothing to do with what ECU you run Mopar or stock. I ran them on my Gen IV and tracked the car with them and also never had an issue. They also run ARH headers on every ACRX that ran in the Viper cup series and I have never heard of this being some sort of systemic issue.

There is a finite amount of space in that area be it gen IV or V, and if you are running a 3 inch turnout pipe either ARH or Ballenger it will occupy the exact same amount of space. So your next issue then is does one brand put out more heat than another brand? Possibly? But again nothing is going to put out more heat than the ARH's that were on the ACRX Viper Cup cars and it wasn't an issue for them so who knows.

I can tell you that I have run my TA at COTA, Autocross, and the drag strip and the O2 wires look just like the day they did when I put them on.

The ACR-X does not run a downstream O2 hence no problem. The PCM does make a difference as with the Mopar unit you can remove the downstream O2s and not have an issue. With them removed there is no chance of melting the wires. With the stock PCM you must leave the downstream O2s in or the car will set a CEL due to cat efficiency failing. You must be lucky to not have burnt the wires. I burned them several times until I realized that the Mopar PCM allowed me to remove them.

[FLATOUT]

I guess me and the 4 others in Houston that run these Headers and track our cars regularly are "lucky" not trying to be a dick I just haven't seen that happen as you have. Not saying it doesn't happen I just haven't run into that situation with them.

The ACR-X does not run a downstream O2 hence no problem. The PCM does make a difference as with the Mopar unit you can remove the downstream O2s and not have an issue. With them removed there is no chance of melting the wires. With the stock PCM you must leave the downstream O2s in or the car will set a CEL due to cat efficiency failing. You must be lucky to not have burnt the wires. I burned them several times until I realized that the Mopar PCM allowed me to remove them.

[ViperGeorge]

I guess me and the 4 others in Houston that run these Headers and track our cars regularly are "lucky" not trying to be a dick I just haven't seen that happen as you have. Not saying it doesn't happen I just haven't run into that situation with them.

Are you running them on a Gen 4 or a Gen 5? A Gen 5 install may be different than a Gen 4. I've had the problem on a Gen 4; I have not installed them on a Gen 5 yet.

[FLATOUT]

Are you running them on a Gen 4 or a Gen 5? A Gen 5 install may be different than a Gen 4. I've had the problem on a Gen 4; I have not installed them on a Gen 5 yet.

I have run them on both (Gen IV and V) without any issues at the track and street. Ralph Gilles also runs them on his Gen V with cats. That's good enough for me.