Classifed Ad Restriction

[FLATOUT]

Just curious where the sponsorship thing starts and stops. You know, being a link to a non sponsor site in a regional VPs sig and all.

Legit point.

[SmoknTires]

Reading this thread. Good discussion - however sometimes I'm just amazed at how some folks can come off so brash.

First off, this isn't the end of the world - as I see some joking about it already. This is a decision that needs to be made and can easily be put to a vote. While Janni in my eyes has probably predicted the future best - anyone not winning the vote will simply continue to scream - it can surely be discussed. I like the topic, and can understand the points some of those affecting are making. Good to discuss.

In my mind it's apparent that if left "wide open" (as a few who clearly have a personal/financial outcome tied to this), this can be abused. However, where is the line drawn to both allow for some of this, but restrain that abuse. The problem isn't as much the topic, both sides of the argument would agree to compromise, however the solution itself is where the water gets muddy. It would be wonderful to leave this all up to judgment - and just lets mods pick out the "undercover vendors" taking advantage of the system and contact them. But we know that won't work. I guess that's where 3, 5, etc... could make sense. We need a clear line that is understandable and easy to follow. We do need a logic, if we argue opinion we'll be here forever. Part of the logic should indeed be what makes sense for the majority. Part of the logic should be weighing what other affects this has (on vendors for instance). And part of the logic should be providing all members with the ability to get the most out of their experience on the forum/classifieds (by allowing enough usage to provide them value).

I for one do want free information exchange, but I also don't like seeing folks take advantage and going overboard leveraging overly liberal policies. I also believe that sponsors do deserve the space that they get because they are the ones holding us up on their shoulders. And for those who say it's all about money - it's not, but it's a component - and there's nothing wrong with that. The forum, server, and connection - wouldn't be here if it wasn't for them. This is all a privilege. (and conversely, for those who seem to have issue with a limitation, it seems money is very much at the heart of your own argument - right?)

So let's stay away from calling this a money grab, dictatorship, censorship, or of course... the VCA. It's (most definitely) none of those things. Let's get back on topic and be reasonable. I for one do believe there needs to be a line. Sorry. Where the line is, is where I believe the conversation needs to be right now. I'm seeing the ads myself and it's clear that some are making a business of this, even if they aren't - it's taking liberties with the intent of the classifieds.

[Nine Ball]

I think this is an excellent baseline that's pretty much what we're doing, with the exception of the guest member exclusion; which I think is a great addition. But no one is focusing on the enforcement, which to a great extent, falls to the moderators. BTW- We mods certainly influence these rules, but we don't create them.

Regardless, it's our enforcement of these rules that is problematic. In this case, please comment on how we are to make a determination between "Paid Membership" and "Business Related". THAT is how this all began.

Another reason for only allowing paid members to post ads: Less potential for scammers. Paid VOA members have provided their identity, addresses, and contact info, as well as payment information, to the VOA. That means they likely haven't joined the site, just to scam people. On every other forum, scammers act like normal members and "sell" something, collect the cash, and disappear. I'd rather buy from paid membership people, on a paid membership club. Consider it a perk for joining.

I'm on here daily, would volunteer to police the classifieds to monitor for shady business like ads. I will zap them without fear. Being a paid sponsor here, I have incentive to protect the other paying sponsors from businesses that try to undercut us. But, I'd rather the classifieds be limited to only paid members, period.

[AZTVR]

Another reason for only allowing paid members to post ads: Less potential for scammers. Paid VOA members have provided their identity, addresses, and contact info, as well as payment information, to the VOA. That means they likely haven't joined the site, just to scam people. On every other forum, scammers act like normal members and "sell" something, collect the cash, and disappear. I'd rather buy from paid membership people, on a paid membership club. Consider it a perk for joining.

I'm on here daily, would volunteer to police the classifieds to monitor for shady business like ads. I will zap them without fear. Being a paid sponsor here, I have incentive to protect the other paying sponsors from businesses that try to undercut us. But, I'd rather the classifieds be limited to only paid members, period.

The ads in the classifieds clearly show the status of the seller as Enthusiast, VOA member, Mamba member; so, the reader already has the capability of limiting their purchase accordingly.

As a former owner and now an "Enthusiast", I appreciate the capability of selling a few spare parts directly to Viper owners who might not be so motivated to figure out how to search eBay for what they want. I would have thought that a majority of club members would like having easy access to Viper parts ads in the classifieds. When I was looking to replace a couple of Dynamics Suspensions shocks on my '02 ACR, it was very convenient to have folks advertising them in the classifieds even if they were not members. They were not advertising them on eBay.

[City]

Another reason for only allowing paid members to post ads: Less potential for scammers. Paid VOA members have provided their identity, addresses, and contact info, as well as payment information, to the VOA. That means they likely haven't joined the site, just to scam people. On every other forum, scammers act like normal members and "sell" something, collect the cash, and disappear. I'd rather buy from paid membership people, on a paid membership club. Consider it a perk for joining.

I'm on here daily, would volunteer to police the classifieds to monitor for shady business like ads. I will zap them without fear. Being a paid sponsor here, I have incentive to protect the other paying sponsors from businesses that try to undercut us. But, I'd rather the classifieds be limited to only paid members, period.

The ads in the classifieds clearly show the status of the seller as Enthusiast, VOA member, Mamba member; so, the reader already has the capability of limiting their purchase accordingly.

As a former owner and now an "Enthusiast", I appreciate the capability of selling a few spare parts directly to Viper owners who might not be so motivated to figure out how to search eBay for what they want. I would have thought that a majority of club members would like having easy access to Viper parts ads in the classifieds. When I was looking to replace a couple of Dynamics Suspensions shocks on my '02 ACR, it was very convenient to have folks advertising them in the classifieds even if they were not members. They were not advertising them on eBay.

I have to chuckle a bit because this is a perfect example of what the mods and board are faced with. Two opposed and yet quite reasonable opinions. I'm swayed each way after reading. I'm just sayin' it ain't as easy as some might think. Thanks for the ongoing discussion.

[IndyRon]

Another reason for only allowing paid members to post ads: Less potential for scammers. Paid VOA members have provided their identity, addresses, and contact info, as well as payment information, to the VOA. That means they likely haven't joined the site, just to scam people. On every other forum, scammers act like normal members and "sell" something, collect the cash, and disappear. I'd rather buy from paid membership people, on a paid membership club. Consider it a perk for joining.

I'm on here daily, would volunteer to police the classifieds to monitor for shady business like ads. I will zap them without fear. Being a paid sponsor here, I have incentive to protect the other paying sponsors from businesses that try to undercut us. But, I'd rather the classifieds be limited to only paid members, period.

I don't think it can be you though since you are a paid vendor and would have a theoretical (even if not actual) bias. If you stop being a vendor, then I agree you could be the classifieds police.

[SmoknTires]

My feelings exactly. Good discussion and frankly I don't have a good opinion yet on where the best solution is.

[Drummerviper]

My feelings exactly. Good discussion and frankly I don't have a good opinion yet on where the best solution is.

And I'm willing to bet no one gets banned.

[ACRucrazy]

The ads in the classifieds clearly show the status of the seller as Enthusiast, VOA member, Mamba member; so, the reader already has the capability of limiting their purchase accordingly.

As a former owner and now an "Enthusiast", I appreciate the capability of selling a few spare parts directly to Viper owners who might not be so motivated to figure out how to search eBay for what they want. I would have thought that a majority of club members would like having easy access to Viper parts ads in the classifieds. When I was looking to replace a couple of Dynamics Suspensions shocks on my '02 ACR, it was very convenient to have folks advertising them in the classifieds even if they were not members. They were not advertising them on eBay.

Agreed with this. The classifieds show weather you are a member, enthusiast, how many forum posts you have and what your classified feedback score is. Putting limits on how many items someone can post or making sure they are a paying member only restricts what may be offered and that is no good for a small community such as the Viper community.

[Bugman Jeff]

the ones that i wanna know how to deal with are the bi-zenon headlight guys of the site. sure seems to be selling enough to be a sponsor but said hes not. how do we deal with those types of guys that are viper owners and members ?

EDIT: scratch that.. hes not even a VOA member http://driveviper.com/forums/threads...he-Gen-2-Viper

This is my concern because I'm an inventive guy and may some day come up with a Widget I'd like to share with the community(and by share, I mean sell). The headlight guy(the diffuser blade guy fits in here too) is making and selling a kit for profit, but should he be required to be a sponsor? He has one product that he sells, and he hasn't sold 20 of them yet. I'm willing to bet that the profit he's made at this point has covered his R&D and overhead costs, but if you add in a sponsorship cost he'd still be close to break even. Add in renewing the sponsorship cost when it expires and initial demand has also dropped, and he could be in the negative. Right now, he's offering a unique product for the Viper community. If he were forced to pay for sponsorship, he might not have offered the kits for sale at all(as it is, he's thinking of calling it quits when his current stock dries up). The choices I see in this type of situation are A) a guy offers a good product at a good price to forum members and makes a small profit or B) he has to become a sponsor, possibly negating his profit and incentive to offer the product to the community at all.

[City]

And I'm willing to bet no one gets banned.

THANK YOU!

[ACRucrazy]

This is my concern because I'm an inventive guy and may some day come up with a Widget I'd like to share with the community(and by share, I mean sell). The headlight guy(the diffuser blade guy fits in here too) is making and selling a kit for profit, but should he be required to be a sponsor? He has one product that he sells, and he hasn't sold 20 of them yet. I'm willing to bet that the profit he's made at this point has covered his R&D and overhead costs, but if you add in a sponsorship cost he'd still be close to break even. Add in renewing the sponsorship cost when it expires and initial demand has also dropped, and he could be in the negative. Right now, he's offering a unique product for the Viper community. If he were forced to pay for sponsorship, he might not have offered the kits for sale at all(as it is, he's thinking of calling it quits when his current stock dries up). The choices I see in this type of situation are A) a guy offers a good product at a good price to forum members and makes a small profit or B) he has to become a sponsor, possibly negating his profit and incentive to offer the product to the community at all.

Bingo.

[Nine Ball]

This is my concern because I'm an inventive guy and may some day come up with a Widget I'd like to share with the community(and by share, I mean sell). The headlight guy(the diffuser blade guy fits in here too) is making and selling a kit for profit, but should he be required to be a sponsor? He has one product that he sells, and he hasn't sold 20 of them yet. I'm willing to bet that the profit he's made at this point has covered his R&D and overhead costs, but if you add in a sponsorship cost he'd still be close to break even. Add in renewing the sponsorship cost when it expires and initial demand has also dropped, and he could be in the negative. Right now, he's offering a unique product for the Viper community. If he were forced to pay for sponsorship, he might not have offered the kits for sale at all(as it is, he's thinking of calling it quits when his current stock dries up). The choices I see in this type of situation are A) a guy offers a good product at a good price to forum members and makes a small profit or B) he has to become a sponsor, possibly negating his profit and incentive to offer the product to the community at all.

This is Business 101. Each and every vendor has to consider the exact same thing. Is the profit worth running the business? I used to build a knock retard module for early LS1 engines, and had to advertise on LS1.com to sell them. I sold a lot the first 3 months, then the demand dropped. At some point, maybe six months in, the product couldn't sustain the advertising. But, the products still got out there, and I had them on ebay later. Good products will find a market. I don't find it ethically right to try and advertise for free, where others are paying to advertise. That is what Craigslist is for. I don't sell a lot of wheels to the Viper community, either. Maybe 1-2 sets a month? But, I still like supporting the community that I participate in. I'd never get rich by selling wheels here, probably would starve actually.

[XSnake]

This is my concern because I'm an inventive guy and may some day come up with a Widget I'd like to share with the community(and by share, I mean sell). The headlight guy(the diffuser blade guy fits in here too) is making and selling a kit for profit, but should he be required to be a sponsor? He has one product that he sells, and he hasn't sold 20 of them yet.

I can't speak to the #'s for the HID's but that is NOT the first diffuser blade thread or group buy.

[TowDawg]

the ones that i wanna know how to deal with are the bi-zenon headlight guys of the site. sure seems to be selling enough to be a sponsor but said hes not. how do we deal with those types of guys that are viper owners and members ?

EDIT: scratch that.. hes not even a VOA member http://driveviper.com/forums/threads...he-Gen-2-Viper

I'm assuming this thread got zapped (not that there's a problem if it was advertising)? Was going to see what all hoopla was about, but it says I do not have permission to access it.

[KNG SNKE]

the ones that i wanna know how to deal with are the bi-zenon headlight guys of the site. sure seems to be selling enough to be a sponsor but said hes not. how do we deal with those types of guys that are viper owners and members ?

EDIT: scratch that.. hes not even a VOA member http://driveviper.com/forums/threads...he-Gen-2-Viper

I would like to see the response to this as well since I fall under the category of one of those guys. Grant it I have not had the blades produced since this forum has been around but there are a few members trying to generate enough interest to get another batch produced. Sponsorship fees for that? Definitely not. The profit margin doesn't support it. Additionally I purchased 2 Vipers a while back and parted them out. Sponsorship fees for that? I can see why I would be asked for that, and the profit margin supports it, however I'm not a vendor nor is stripping cars anywhere near my profession. It's a hobby. Honestly the tighter you squeeze the reins the more folks that will be driven away. To eaches own and I wish you luck with your decisions, it's not an easy one. After deployment I may sign up for the club, we will see how the current affairs are at that time and I actually will have time to participate online and events. I went from daily online forum posting to maybe once a month average.

[ACRucrazy]

I would like to see the response to this as well since I fall under the category of one of those guys. Grant it I have not had the blades produced since this forum has been around but there are a few members trying to generate enough interest to get another batch produced. Sponsorship fees for that? Definitely not. The profit margin doesn't support it. Additionally I purchased 2 Vipers a while back and parted them out. Sponsorship fees for that? I can see why I would be asked for that, and the profit margin supports it, however I'm not a vendor nor is stripping cars anywhere near my profession. It's a hobby. Honestly the tighter you squeeze the reins the more folks that will be driven away. To each own and I wish you luck with your decisions, it's not an easy one. After deployment I may sign up for the club, we will see how the current affairs are at that time and I actually will have time to participate online and events. I went from daily online forum posting to maybe once a month average.

As someone who has parted out probably 4-5 vehicles in the last 15 years I definitely agree with the hobby thing. Overall a great post and thank you for your service.

As far as the whole sponsorship thing goes, here we have a non sponsor group buy going.

http://driveviper.com/forums/threads...Closeout-Panel

how does that work?

And to clarify, I don't think this group buy, the HID Gen 2 kits, the diffuser blades or even the regional VPs for profit group link in his signature are an issue. My view is if sponsors want to advertise and pay to do so, they get something others don't. We shouldn't be forcing others to pay to sponsor just because others make the choice.

[Nine Ball]

My view is if sponsors want to advertise and pay to do so, they get something others don't. We shouldn't be forcing others to pay to sponsor just because others make the choice.

We do not pay to advertise, just to have a banner ad occasionally pop up. I could do more FREE advertising by just going around posting links to my site, in my signature. Then what would be the point? Your stance makes zero sense, in this regard. If the VOA doesn't want to have advertising revenue, I'm all for that. I would certainly choose to do free advertising, than paid-for advertising.

But, would that be ethically correct, if others are paying to advertise here?

[ACRucrazy]

Paying to be a sponsor gets you:

-Rotating, static, and/or animated banners on the national website
-Your forum avatar will have the title of "site sponsor"
-You will be allowed a custom signature on your posts
-You will receive a dedicated forum in the "Vendor Showcase" for your company
-Your full size banner will be added to a sponsor page (with link to your website)
-You can request customized statistics for web usage/hits on your banner(s)

Being a sponsor gets you more than some guy selling a few HID kits or diffuser blades. You get all the above, he does not.

The Viper Owners Association wants to establish a thriving vendor connection as a resource to its club members. There are terrific opportunities for businesses to connect directly to Viper owners and enthusiasts to help spread the word on their products and services. That connection can be made through the following two methods

No where on the Sponsorship page of the VOA does it state being a sponsor prevents non sponsors from selling on the forum or restrict links on the forums to non sponsor sites.


So I guess my questions to whoever from the VOA can give solid answers remain.

Are links in posts to non sponsors OK?
Are group buys to non sponsors OK?
Are links in signatures (of regional VPs no less) to non sponsors OK?
Why is the VOA limiting FS ads?
Who made that decision?

I'm not against sponsors, regional VPs, links in sigs, parting out cars, or even the group buy thing. I just see some grey area with no continuity with what appears to be a few people making up silly rules as they go along.

[ViperTony]

No. Edited version below.

It really shouldn't be this difficult. Simple.

Paid membership = unlimited ads
Guest members = zero ads
Business related = cough up the sponsorship dollars

I agree with you Nine Ball except that I think Guests should be able to post ads but pay an ad fee to do so. $30 per ad for example.

I had this same exact issue on another site that has been mentioned in this thread. The 'issue' went unnoticed until a paid sponsor alerted the mods about alleged abuse of the classifieds by non-sponsors. There was one legitimate case and that 'sponsor' ended up paying a sponsor fee. The other case (total of two) was a member selling parts from a Viper part out. Non-business but a local member who came across a great deal on a wrecked Viper. Ads were created and a sponsor became upset. In all cases, the mods reached out to the alleged abusers (a total of two over 6 years) and inquired as to whether they were businesses or not. If they were a business and planned on selling on the site they were required to pay a sponsor fee. A policy was then formed, behind the scenes, without any input from sponsors or members that required part hobbyists to pay a sponsor fee for posting ads. It was an example of punishing the many in order not to deal with the one offender directly.

Two months ago a sponsor contacted me and complained about abuses in the classifieds here. I directed the sponsor to contact the mods. I don't know of any other complaints from sponsors.

Learning from past mistakes I recommend that this classified ad rule be eliminated. It's not needed. As a board member, I am unaware of any reports/incidents/abuses of the classifieds here. I am also unaware of complaints from sponsors (except for one) about this 'issue'. I simply don't see the justification for this rule.

We have to remember that we are a club formed around a nice vehicle with very little aftermarket support. Parts are hard to come by especially for older generation Vipers. We are also a community whereby we have members that are creative enough to invent diffuser blades (as an example) with little-no margin for the sake of hobby and helping fellow Viper owners. Members support members. Often times, it's niche products that no other sponsor offers or competes against. We need this support from our members and we should be encouraging members to post up products they think will help the Viper community. We don't have the luxury of being a mass-produced vehicle with mass-produced sponsors/vendors/after-market products.

Get rid of the rule. And if more mods are needed to help oversee the site than recruit more mods. Less rules.

[ACRucrazy]

Overall great post! I agree with pretty much everything except having to pay to sell something. Like you said, small community with few parts. Paying to sell will only prevent people from selling stuff here. If I want to pay to sell I'll use eBay

[ViperTony]

Overall great post! I agree with pretty much everything except having to pay to sell something. Like you said, small community with few parts. Paying to sell will only prevent people from selling stuff here. If I want to pay to sell I'll use eBay

Use ebay then. You have choices.

[ACRucrazy]

Looking out for the community. Not the revenue the classifieds bring the VOA.

Paying $30 to sell a free bottle of touch up paint or $15 license plate bracket or K&N filter makes no sense. Would rather a member get cheap parts than eBay.

[BlknBlu]

Let me throw my 2 cents in as possible criteria. That is what this is about is breaking down the ads to who can do what and how many items. Again with membership it has it's priveledgss. Enthusiasts should have to pay to post items in the classifieds, Members limit to 5 items a month, Mamba Members get unlimited items to sell as long as it is not a business item(like rain covered hood vents....lol). Vendors also have unrestricted items to sell.

On another note, 1 single thread should be made(if desired) when notating an item in the classified section. We do not need to see every forum updated that gold plated lug nuts are for sale.

This is very basic and can be modified.

Bruce

[XSnake]

Looking out for the community. Not the revenue the classifieds bring the VOA.

Paying $30 to sell a free bottle of touch up paint or $15 license plate bracket or K&N filter makes no sense. Would rather a member get cheap parts than eBay.

A member wouldn't have to pay the fee