Classifed Ad Restriction

[ACRucrazy]

Please be advised that all forum members are now being restricted to a maximum of 3 classified advertisements at any one time. There is presently no restriction on the total number of ads, so as long as you keep your ad total to not more than 3 (at any one time), you can replace any of those three at any time.

We will allow your EXISTING ads to continue, however any NEW ads will are prohibited (and will be removed) until your total is reduced to 3.

Extenuating "hardship cases" (such as the need to parting out totaled vehicle) will be considered. If you have any questions, please feel free to PM any of the moderators.

This message is being sent to all, and only those, that are presently over the limit.

City/Scott

I received this PM. Who voted to "add this rule" and why?
I have never been on a forum that restricts the number of ads a member can make, let alone a paying forum/club member.
I guess you can chalk me up as one who disagrees with it 100%. It wasn't a rule when I signed up, it wasn't a rule when I paid my membership dues.

[whitebeard]

Moving thread to correct location, leaving redirect in place.

[99RT10]

I received this PM. Who voted to "add this rule" and why?
I have never been on a forum that restricts the number of ads a member can make, let alone a paying forum/club member.
I guess you can chalk me up as one who disagrees with it 100%. It wasn't a rule when I signed up, it wasn't a rule when I paid my membership dues.

Seems one of the sponsors has a two handed grip on the VOA officer's balls and are squeezing tight. This will be my only year in the club. December comes around, I'm out.

[Red Snake]

Its ok Mike, the Alley will let you place as many as you want. No charge, lol.

[plumcrazy]

Its ok Mike, the Alley will let you place as many as you want. No charge, lol.

another trouble maker !

[KickinAssphault]

In the interest of transparency; when? why? what justification?

[XSnake]

In the interest of transparency; when? why? what justification?

It keeps people from bypassing the sponsorship fees. A couple members buy and part out cars for profit. When you start operating as a business the rules for individuals no longer apply.

[Nine Ball]

If it were up to me, I'd only allow paying members to post ads here, period. With no limit. But, if they are actually a business, they need to pay for advertising like the rest of us.

[Shooter]

If it were up to me, I'd only allow paying members to post ads here, period. With no limit. But, if they are actually a business, they need to pay for advertising like the rest of us.

Sounds like a good idea to vote on.

[ACRucrazy]

If it were up to me, I'd only allow paying members to post ads here, period. With no limit. But, if they are actually a business, they need to pay for advertising like the rest of us.

Why are the Viper forums the only forums I have ever been on that have a requirement to either pay per ad or pay for membership to post classifieds? If not that there is a restriction on the number of ads? I find it ridiculous.

It's becoming apparent to me memebers are not as important as "sponsors" being paying members or non paying. It's so ass backwards to me. Create a welcoming place that focuses on members and those sponsors that choose to advertise will benefit. Create a place that restricts members or forces people to pay or puts paying sponsors before active members weather they choose to pay dues or not and you will hurt your club.

Why does this always have to be about the money?????

[Nine Ball]

Why are the Viper forums the only forums I have ever been on that have a requirement to either pay per ad or pay for membership to post classifieds? If not that there is a restriction on the number of ads? I find it ridiculous.

1. Because this is a paid membership club. There should be incentives to being a member. Most forums are funded solely by ads.
2. I also find any restriction on ad count somewhat silly, because there might be a few crazy Viper guys out there with 100s of parts to clear out of their collection of stuff, which could benefit the rest of the members.

[XSnake]

2. I also find any restriction on ad count somewhat silly, because there might be a few crazy Viper guys out there with 100s of parts to clear out of their collection of stuff, which could benefit the rest of the members.

The original PM that the OP got also mentioned that "Extenuating circumstances' can and will arise which will be reviewed. This rule is aimed directly at the people that are acting and selling parts as a business for profit under membership status. If someone wrecks their car and is doing a part out then they obviously will be given an exemption as it says in the original PM. I do feel that 3 is a little low, should be 5 IMO.

[99RT10]

The original PM that the OP got also mentioned that "Extenuating circumstances' can and will arise which will be reviewed. This rule is aimed directly at the people that are acting and selling parts as a business for profit under membership status. If someone wrecks their car and is doing a part out then they obviously will be given an exemption as it says in the original PM. I do feel that 3 is a little low, should be 5 IMO.

So it's ok for some that wrecks their car to part it out for two years or more UN-restricted to flood the classifieds, but for any other PAYING member that wants to put 4 things or more for sale, it's not? Really?! Why 5, Maybe it needs to be only 1 at a time, and only after getting approval from the BOD?

[Janni]

The classified ads are for members to sell thing to members. The expectation here is that you are on "equal footing" when it comes to the transaction - i.e. member to member. Not business to member unless you identify yourself as a business, and, as Nineball says above, pay for advertising.

For example - I might have some 1996 takeoff cast iron exhaust manifolds, left over from our 1996 days. If I sell them (ha! who would want them?) to another member - it's a pretty simple transaction between 2 "average Viper Joe's". If the limit is oppressive to an average Viper owner - we can revisit.

We're reviewing all the advertising policies, linking policies, etc as part of the discussion that took place regarding the link to the non-sponsor.

[Granger73]

A vote sounds like a good idea. Can't believe this is in the best interest of paying members. It would be nice to see some disclosure as to what ad revenue amounts to, and what it is allocated for. Is it a ton of money? Be good to know.

[99RT10]

I received this PM. Who voted to "add this rule" and why?
I have never been on a forum that restricts the number of ads a member can make, let alone a paying forum/club member.
I guess you can chalk me up as one who disagrees with it 100%. It wasn't a rule when I signed up, it wasn't a rule when I paid my membership dues.

I know who didn't, but their concerns were tossed out like smelly trash.

[BlknBlu]

This is a great discussion and deserves to be looked at. I am sure this will be brought up at the next officers meeting.

Bruce

[Janni]

So it's okay to have a member have unlimited free access to classifieds if they have a business buying and selling cars / parts / etc.? And they don't have to identify themselves as being in business, they can just be an average Joe selling a take off from their Viper?

Just trying to get your baseline here.

[Nine Ball]

No. Edited version below.

So it's okay to have a paying member have unlimited free access to classifieds. If they have a business buying and selling cars / parts / etc., they do have to identify themselves as being in business, or if they are found out to be associated with a business, they would simply need to sign on for advertising.

Just trying to get your baseline here.

It really shouldn't be this difficult. Simple.

Paid membership = unlimited ads
Guest members = zero ads
Business related = cough up the sponsorship dollars

[Mr. Bill]

No. Edited version below.



It really shouldn't be this difficult. Simple.

Paid membership = unlimited ads
Guest members = zero ads
Business related = cough up the sponsorship dollars

I agree......pretty simple solution that makes perfect sense.

[City]

It really shouldn't be this difficult. Simple.

Paid membership = unlimited ads
Guest members = zero ads
Business related = cough up the sponsorship dollars

I agree......pretty simple solution that makes perfect sense.

I think this is an excellent baseline that's pretty much what we're doing, with the exception of the guest member exclusion; which I think is a great addition. But no one is focusing on the enforcement, which to a great extent, falls to the moderators. BTW- We mods certainly influence these rules, but we don't create them.

Regardless, it's our enforcement of these rules that is problematic. In this case, please comment on how we are to make a determination between "Paid Membership" and "Business Related". THAT is how this all began.

[XSnake]

Regardless, it's our enforcement of these rules that is problematic. In this case, please comment on how we are to make a determination between "Paid Membership" and "Business Related". THAT is how this all began.

This I believe is the key issue. It is pretty obvious when people are parting out multiple cars continuously. I'm sure you guys could also add a "Why am I selling" field to classifieds listings. This is a common question that buyers would ask a seller anyways. A PM to the seller by a mod could also work getting an explanation.

Also, when people come on the site and start a thread trying to sell the forum members something they need to get a PM from a mod with an explanation of site rules. There is a thread currently on the site where a member is openly making and selling parts for profit. That member should be required to be a sponsor.

[Nine Ball]

I think this is an excellent baseline that's pretty much what we're doing, with the exception of the guest member exclusion; which I think is a great addition. But no one is focusing on the enforcement, which to a great extent, falls to the moderators. BTW- We mods certainly influence these rules, but we don't create them.

Regardless, it's our enforcement of these rules that is problematic. In this case, please comment on how we are to make a determination between "Paid Membership" and "Business Related". THAT is how this all began.

Another reason for only allowing paid members to post ads: Less potential for scammers. Paid VOA members have provided their identity, addresses, and contact info, as well as payment information, to the VOA. That means they likely haven't joined the site, just to scam people. On every other forum, scammers act like normal members and "sell" something, collect the cash, and disappear. I'd rather buy from paid membership people, on a paid membership club. Consider it a perk for joining.

I'm on here daily, would volunteer to police the classifieds to monitor for shady business like ads. I will zap them without fear. Being a paid sponsor here, I have incentive to protect the other paying sponsors from businesses that try to undercut us. But, I'd rather the classifieds be limited to only paid members, period.

[City]

Regardless, it's our enforcement of these rules that is problematic. In this case, please comment on how we are to make a determination between "Paid Membership" and "Business Related". THAT is how this all began.

There's a great deal of tangential discussion going on here. We've never suggested charging for classified ads. If that alternative is part of master plan regarding on site advertising, we might want to leave that for the moment.

I'd like more specific comments on how the moderators are to make a determination between commercial and non-commercial (non-sponsor) forum members that are advertising viper parts/accessories. Please suggest the criteria which we can use to make the determination between non-commercial (hobbyist) vs. commercial. "Hobbyist advertisers" posting suggestions might want to consider role reversal, i.e., consider yourself a commercial site sponsor selling Viper parts/accessories and paying sponsor fees. Consider your comments from the opposite point of view as if you were addressing a "hobbyist advertiser" that was impinging on your business.

[ViperTony]

No. Edited version below.

It really shouldn't be this difficult. Simple.

Paid membership = unlimited ads
Guest members = zero ads
Business related = cough up the sponsorship dollars

I agree with you Nine Ball except that I think Guests should be able to post ads but pay an ad fee to do so. $30 per ad for example.

I had this same exact issue on another site that has been mentioned in this thread. The 'issue' went unnoticed until a paid sponsor alerted the mods about alleged abuse of the classifieds by non-sponsors. There was one legitimate case and that 'sponsor' ended up paying a sponsor fee. The other case (total of two) was a member selling parts from a Viper part out. Non-business but a local member who came across a great deal on a wrecked Viper. Ads were created and a sponsor became upset. In all cases, the mods reached out to the alleged abusers (a total of two over 6 years) and inquired as to whether they were businesses or not. If they were a business and planned on selling on the site they were required to pay a sponsor fee. A policy was then formed, behind the scenes, without any input from sponsors or members that required part hobbyists to pay a sponsor fee for posting ads. It was an example of punishing the many in order not to deal with the one offender directly.

Two months ago a sponsor contacted me and complained about abuses in the classifieds here. I directed the sponsor to contact the mods. I don't know of any other complaints from sponsors.

Learning from past mistakes I recommend that this classified ad rule be eliminated. It's not needed. As a board member, I am unaware of any reports/incidents/abuses of the classifieds here. I am also unaware of complaints from sponsors (except for one) about this 'issue'. I simply don't see the justification for this rule.

We have to remember that we are a club formed around a nice vehicle with very little aftermarket support. Parts are hard to come by especially for older generation Vipers. We are also a community whereby we have members that are creative enough to invent diffuser blades (as an example) with little-no margin for the sake of hobby and helping fellow Viper owners. Members support members. Often times, it's niche products that no other sponsor offers or competes against. We need this support from our members and we should be encouraging members to post up products they think will help the Viper community. We don't have the luxury of being a mass-produced vehicle with mass-produced sponsors/vendors/after-market products.

Get rid of the rule. And if more mods are needed to help oversee the site than recruit more mods. Less rules.