Classifed Ad Restriction

[CarolinaViper]

I don't watch the classifieds at all, so this is news to me, but it seems obvious that someone was running a for profit business through the classifieds. If that's the case, instead of punishing ALL users, why not restrict that guy with a "hey, you're clearly running a business so sign up for sponsorship." If there was no precedent, then this ruling is arbitrary and based on what "might" happen. That kind of speculation doesn't improve the classifieds, and will only reduce the number of member to member transactions.

If the leadership feels that having unrestricted classifieds is somehow harming the community, then restrict them for non-members only. Use the three ad limit for non-members, but leave it unlimited for members. Members are paying to be here after all and it would be another membership perk.

Coming from a non-paying member "BUGMAN JEFF", IF the the "CLUB" decides on a need to restrict personal classified this idea is better than restricting paying members. Also, like the thought we might increase paying membership which helps us all.

[IndyRon]

Here's something else I'd like considered and discussed. I personally know a local guy here in Indy who is working on a couple 1-off Carbon fiber parts for my ACR. There is currently no present or past vendor that offers these parts in carbon. They are hand made by him. I will NOT benefit financially if he decides to produce these for public consumption after mine are finished. He is a small business (himself only) working out of a 400sqft shop. If he were interested in selling these parts to the Viper community here, would he be forced to pay a sponsorship fee?

I ask this because he's trying to get his business off the ground and doesn't have 1k/yr for sponsorship to sell a $200-300 part at maybe ~8-10 orders per year at a 10% margin. Because of this I offered to help promote them on here when finished but it sounds like this won't be possible or permitted. He wouldn't be taking away customers from current sponsors because no one else makes these parts. I feel we need to encourage others to enter the Viper market but unfortunately these rules may work to monopolize the market into just a couple larger vendors much how the US free market is going. What say ye?

[ACRucrazy]

Ron, I believe the forums should a hub for learning, promotion and sharing of everything Viper. Restrictions hurt the members and owners of this special car. VOA should do everything to encourage more innovation and creation for the aftermarket of a car that has a total 20 year production of less than 1 year of a Corvette.

Rules for the sake of rules as Tony put it do no one any good.

[XSnake]

Here's something else I'd like considered and discussed. I personally know a local guy here in Indy who is working on a couple 1-off Carbon fiber parts for my ACR. There is currently no present or past vendor that offers these parts in carbon. They are hand made by him. I will NOT benefit financially if he decides to produce these for public consumption after mine are finished. He is a small business (himself only) working out of a 400sqft shop. If he were interested in selling these parts to the Viper community here, would he be forced to pay a sponsorship fee?

I ask this because he's trying to get his business off the ground and doesn't have 1k/yr for sponsorship to sell a $200-300 part at maybe ~8-10 orders per year at a 10% margin. Because of this I offered to help promote them on here when finished but it sounds like this won't be possible or permitted. He wouldn't be taking away customers from current sponsors because no one else makes these parts. I feel we need to encourage others to enter the Viper market but unfortunately these rules may work to monopolize the market into just a couple larger vendors much how the US free market is going. What say ye?

He is not an owner so he would be coming on the site solely to sell parts. Doesn't that make you a vendor?

[Nine Ball]

Here's something else I'd like considered and discussed. I personally know a local guy here in Indy who is working on a couple 1-off Carbon fiber parts for my ACR. There is currently no present or past vendor that offers these parts in carbon. They are hand made by him. I will NOT benefit financially if he decides to produce these for public consumption after mine are finished. He is a small business (himself only) working out of a 400sqft shop. If he were interested in selling these parts to the Viper community here, would he be forced to pay a sponsorship fee?

I ask this because he's trying to get his business off the ground and doesn't have 1k/yr for sponsorship

It doesn't cost $1000/year. There is an entry level package of $200 per 6 months. Yes, he should pay it, if he wants to sell/market his products here. I am also a 1-person shop, so are a few other advertising vendors. $400/year is dirt cheap, compared to most forums. We used to charge that per month on a far busier site.

http://driveviper.com/advertise/

The alternative is to find a current vendor that does advertise, to carry his product. Pretty common practice, in any industry.

Tony

[ACRucrazy]

So if he doesn't want to advertise here or want to pay to be in the magazine would talk of his parts on the VOA be prohibited?

I'm not talking about a vendor selling parts in the classifieds.

Just curious where it starts and stops.

[Nine Ball]

So if he doesn't want to advertise here or want to pay to be in the magazine would talk of his parts on the VOA be prohibited?

I'm not talking about a vendor selling parts in the classifieds.

Just curious where it starts and stops.

Customers discussing their purchased products is not a problem, and it shouldn't be. Customers acting as marketing representatives, sending referrals non-stop, and such, well - I would hope you know the difference. I think we all like reading product reviews, good or bad. But there is certainly a difference between someone reviewing their product, and someone that constantly posts links and sends referrals to a product.

I feel any business should consider paying the advertising fee, if they wish to capitalize on this forum. We vendors do not mind doing so, as we are also supporting a community which we enjoy. For example, I could advertise on numerous sites, but I choose to only advertise on forums for vehicle platforms that I personally enjoy. You won't find me on any import sites.

[plumcrazy]

either youre in business or not, if you are, you need to be a sponsor IMO. but my opinion doesnt count...

[Chorps]

It doesn't cost $1000/year. There is an entry level package of $200 per 6 months. Yes, he should pay it, if he wants to sell/market his products here. I am also a 1-person shop, so are a few other advertising vendors. $400/year is dirt cheap, compared to most forums. We used to charge that per month on a far busier site.

http://driveviper.com/advertise/

The alternative is to find a current vendor that does advertise, to carry his product. Pretty common practice, in any industry.

Tony

That's really cheap. I can understand if he's not wanting to pay for starting out his business, but if you want to get close to your customers you have to be where they are. Carbon parts aren't cheap so he should be able to recoup his advertising dollars rather quickly, so he'll know whether it's worth continuing his $200 spend here for another 6 months.

I'm for the open discussion of all vendors, but everyone will probably understand that there are a certain group of vendors who will try to game the system and leech off the boards without advertising...that type of discussion shouldn't be behind closed doors either. Discussed openly, discussed civilly. ;-)

[Janni]

Customers discussing their purchased products is not a problem, and it shouldn't be. Customers acting as marketing representatives, sending referrals non-stop, and such, well - I would hope you know the difference. I think we all like reading product reviews, good or bad. But there is certainly a difference between someone reviewing their product, and someone that constantly posts links and sends referrals to a product.

I feel any business should consider paying the advertising fee, if they wish to capitalize on this forum. We vendors do not mind doing so, as we are also supporting a community which we enjoy. For example, I could advertise on numerous sites, but I choose to only advertise on forums for vehicle platforms that I personally enjoy. You won't find me on any import sites.

Pretty solid logic and guidance here - thanks.

[Drummerviper]

Says a lot that this has been the biggest " controversy" of a new club. A non event IMO , but at least people are willing to get it right, and no one seems up to any silliness .

[Leslie]

either youre in business or not, if you are, you need to be a sponsor IMO. but my opinion doesnt count...

suurrreeeee it does



ok, I agree with Phil

[Janni]

Says a lot that this has been the biggest " controversy" of a new club. A non event IMO , but at least people are willing to get it right, and no one seems up to any silliness .

Oh - I am up to all to ALL SORTS OF SILLINESS. Just not unethical BS.

[City]

Thanks to everyone for this discussion.

From my view, the specifics of this rule are not the issue here. For all intents and purposes, we can certainly adjust the number limitation from 3 to 5 or whatever. It should be obvious that this rule was not created to hinder VOA members from using the classified area to sell their Viper related products. Some have noted the provision for "hardship cases". If it can somehow be determined that a member needs to legitimately sell multiple items (beyond whatever is the limit), without any doubt, such a case would be considered and approved. But it would be rather odd for a member to come upon legitimate multiple NEW items (not impossible, but certainly unusual) that "needed" to be advertised. This rule WAS created to hinder all commercial vendors and "garage vendors" from marketing their products without becoming a sponsor. Defining and determining what constitutes a "commercial vendor" would likely require pages of language that would surely need to be amended on a weekly basis, so alternatively, this rule was devised and enacted.

It would appear (from my limited viewpoint) that we've got 3 reactions:

1. The vast majority of members who don't really give a hoot as it doesn't impact their "Viper lives" in the slightest,
2. A small minority of members who might be affected and/or simply find constricting conditions in general to be uncomfortable and inappropriate in a club website of this nature and
3. An even smaller minority who DO have some financial interest in using our classified area without paying site vendor fees.

If the previous is a reasonably accurate accounting, then we need to address the middle group and find a compromise that serves best. Let's offer and discuss alternatives.

FYI, at present, there are 4 VOA members, out of 65 members posting ads, that presently have more than 3 classified ads, 1 of which is a sponsor. That suggests that, other than conceptual disagreement (and I'm not minimizing same), we're discussing what may actually presently effects less than 5% of our members.

It should also be noted that besides precisely 3 Private Message alerts to the previously mentioned 3 members, NO other actions have been taken.

[Granger73]

For once, let's not bow to the minority. Rules should not be changed to appease a "small" minority when the "vast" majority has a different position. We get enough of that from our various local, state and federal government. Let the majority rule!

[Thawk97]

It would appear (from my limited viewpoint) that we've got 3 reactions:

1. The vast majority of members who don't really give a hoot as it doesn't impact their "Viper lives" in the slightest,
2. A small minority of members who might be affected and/or simply find constricting conditions in general to be uncomfortable and inappropriate in a club website of this nature and
3. An even smaller minority who DO have some financial interest in using our classified area without paying site vendor fees.

I'd even go so far as to say many of those in #2 are only uncomfortable because of the tumultuous history associated with perceived, unneeded regulation. I'd speculate this entire discussion has MUCH less to do with the practical effects of the proposed rule and MUCH more to do with the manner of its conception/inception (and what implications/precedent it sets for future regulation).

In short, the history of arbitrary, secretive/select regulation and lack of accountability for its development and enforcement means that if the current classified's (and general club) aren't crying out for this rule because of the present state of things, it makes some people very uncomfortable to see leadership taking steps to create and enforce such a thing - especially when the initial discussion and communication on it was so limited in scope.

[IndyRon]

A simple solution to this would be: In the future no admin, mod, or higher up should state a policy and have unilateral discretion in determining what is in the best interest of the forum or members of this nature and then taking action with immediate implementation. These types of issues don't need resolved in 24hrs. They can wait a week or even a month until 1 of 2 proposed options transpire.

1) A public vote takes place on the forums to see what the majority opinion is and that carries.
2) A vote among the state chapter presidents or appointed representatives. What y'all think?

[plumcrazy]

i think thats why there is a web committee and elected officers. (im not either by the way)

[ViperTony]

I have a burning sensation between my toes AND I saved 15% on my car insurance.

[01sapphirebob]

I have a burning sensation between my toes AND I saved 15% on my car insurance.

[Viper Girl]

A simple solution to this would be: In the future no admin, mod, or higher up should state a policy and have unilateral discretion in determining what is in the best interest of the forum or members of this nature and then taking action with immediate implementation. These types of issues don't need resolved in 24hrs.

I know... No admin, mod or higher up states any policy... to my knowledge nothing forum related has ever been decided in 24 hours... even when we had members outraged, and screaming at us to do something NOW! with "X" forum poster... Everything is discussed thru a process... as we are now.

Every Regional President, is a member of the BOD for this club. The VOA was set up with an extremely large BOD to handle things exactly like this... Contact them with any concerns, or praise for that matter on how the new club is operating... That way they will know what their regional membership desires. Then can bring it up on the Nat'l call for discussion.



Tony, I'm sorry about your burning sensation... but... TMI... babe... TMI...

[Janni]

Viper Girl is right - we did discuss.

Sometimes - we simply don't have the bandwidth to put anything / everything up for a public vote. And if we did - what about the only occasional forum user / poster? Is his / her voice and vote less important than the more vocal contingent? do we reach out to them and ask the question? Do the sponsors get any input here or no, just members? and forum members or VOA members only? email? mailed ballots? And what do we do with the folks that get outvoted? do we require 2/3 or a simple majority?

I am all for an open process, but please provide some more solid info on how you would implement that in a manner that was sensitive to all members, wasn't 2 or 3 folks' full time jobs, and wasn't costly. I am not saying this to be difficult - but there is a lot of angst on process, but not a ton of solid solutions. And yes - before you say 'we could do a poll' or an online vote - remember if there is coding involved for VOA members only, or reaching the non-web folks, etc.... All this needs to be considered.

[AZTVR]

Personally, I think that this type of issue is what the elected board exists for. (Yeah, maybe some aren't currently elected; but, the current club would not be here at the moment otherwise). That makes it a little biased toward dues paying members which is the way it should be. The only problem with that is that these board members are usually not representative of the average member. I mean, what kind of normal, average person would want the added job of herding rich Viper owning cats? LOL. Its definitely good to have a specific forum for public discussion of votable issues to help the leaders judge public opinion. If it were me, I would just decide and ignore the whiners.

[Bugman Jeff]

IMO, the best way to reach all members for a vote would be e-mail. Even if they're not forum active, I have to think that nearly all VOA members have an e-mail address. A "VOA Vote" email could contain a link to the discussion thread on the forum, the deadline for the vote, and instructions in the e-mail to reply to the e-mail with a "Yes" or "No" in the subject line. It would still require manual counting, but even if you got all the members to vote, it's only 1700 votes. Still cumbersome, but it's probably the best way to reach all the members for policy votes.

[City]

IMO, the best way to reach all members for a vote would be e-mail. Even if they're not forum active, I have to think that nearly all VOA members have an e-mail address. A "VOA Vote" email could contain a link to the discussion thread on the forum, the deadline for the vote, and instructions in the e-mail to reply to the e-mail with a "Yes" or "No" in the subject line. It would still require manual counting, but even if you got all the members to vote, it's only 1700 votes. Still cumbersome, but it's probably the best way to reach all the members for policy votes.

How would you "count" the lack of a vote from a disinterested member? The reason I ask is that there is a strong likelihood that the total votes tallied would be less than 50% of the membership. I could argue both that a) if you do not vote, you are giving your proxy to those that do vote and, b) that a disinterested member is fine with the decisions made by the region presidents and national administrators.

Additionally, we're discussing the governing (or more specifically the voting) differences between a democracy and a republic. Running anything beyond a small committee as a "true democracy" is simply unwieldy.

I mean, what kind of normal, average person would want the added job of herding rich Viper owning cats? (to quote AZTVR)

Never has there been more precise observation! LOL