Classifed Ad Restriction

[XXX BLK]

I agree with Nine Ball and at the same time we always do right for our members. We never looked at anything just for the $$$$$ we have been doing our best to be as fair as possible for "ALL" even thought we know we can't please everyone. BUT WE TRY...If it was just for the money we would let any sponsor advertise on "OUR" club. Please don't make this about the money every time something like this come up because it's not true. Everyone enjoy your 4th and thank you for giving us a chance and we are all adults and we will find a middle ground......Adrian

[Janni]

ACRucrazy - do you have a business that sells Viper parts / products? Just trying to understand if there is something driving your concern about the classified situation. I've been clear that this is now / was not a money issue for me - but more of a full disclosure issue.

And just for the records - sponsor dollars are used to improve the website and to make things better for the members. Advertising was always a part of the budget of the club. We'd be foolish not to include it. However, if you think we should take ZERO from sponsors and have no ads, then we can consider that, but other things may have to change. Less money for the regions, maybe 3 magazines, less storage on the forums / more outages because we pay for a lower level of service, etc.

It's a balance. I don't believe that sponsor dollars talk louder than members AT ALL. And the sponsorship money is used to make the site and the club better for many members.

[ACRucrazy]

ACRucrazy - do you have a business that sells Viper parts / products? Just trying to understand if there is something driving your concern about the classified situation. I've been clear that this is now / was not a money issue for me - but more of a full disclosure issue.

Being that you expanded on this, I will expand on my reply.
NO I do not work for any business or own a business that sells Viper parts / products. I don't see why it matters.

If you want to understand my concern, it should be obvious by now I have no problem voicing it. I lurked for several years on the other forum and learned quite a bit on how it operated.
"PM me for info, PM me for prices, PM me for this that and the other"
"This guy isn't allowed to post here because he is not a paying sponsor"
"This vendor is banned for some stupid reason"

I didn't agree with it there, I don't agree with those policies here. I didn't agree with it 10 years ago when SRTforums started accepting $$ for "sponsors" and those that didn't pay, couldn't talk about their product. And those members that wanted to recommend their products couldn't. I thought it was asinine then, I still do and I quit posting over there.

If you need an example of the above, because of this thread:
http://forums.viperclub.org/threads/...ngineers/page2

I got into it through PMs over how they were locking any thread that had to do with JonB. I stuck up for him over there and said it was not right and it was hurting the members, it was locking down good information for some political BS. I even received several PMs from members about how they didn't agree it was a locked thread.

I am a firm believer that the forums foundation is the membership. Being those that choose to pay dues or not. Those that do not pay yet participate on the forums and share the love for whatever car (Viper in this case) are the foundation. We need those members. We need them active. We need to give them the option to be a paying member and those that choose not to, we should not hound them because of it. It's their choice. We shouldn't make comments like "I see how much membership means to you" in a nasty tone because they chose not to pay dues.

Same goes for sponsors. If you see the benefit to sponsor the forum great. If you don't like that members can talk about other products and links to other Viper related parts that are not from a paying sponsor fine. Don't be a sponsor. I don't care. Sponsor need members. It's not the other way around. I don't understand how people can't see that. Without members, paying and non paying we do not have a VOA we do not have sponsor and vendors.

When restrictions on selling Viper parts/cars and restrictions on links start to come into play that's when I stop paying to be a member. Don't get offended by it. It is what it is. Don't want members to say it, don't want to hear members are not happy, do something about it.

Members first

[LATAMUD]

So members are limited to 3 adds at a time. How difficult is it to list EVERYTHING into one add? Hell, if I was parting a car out, I would just put up 1 advertisement, "Parting out 199x Viper, let me know what you want."

I am disappointed seeing all these random policies pop up as complaints rather than just brought out into the open up front. I find things run a lot smoother if you answer the questions before they are asked.

[Janni]

Actually this IS good discussion. And yes - the club is about the members - not the sponsors. Sponsorship money SHOULD make the club better for the members - events better, website better, benefits better. So - it's a balance. Members should get value for their dollar, and so should sponsors - or else we should not have them. It would be disingenuous to take their money and then tell them they get an ad and no voice or that we don't want to provide value.

We SHOULD err on the side of the members. That is good to remind.

So - let us get through the first national event and we can address these in more detail. We're human - no one is perfect and we are trying. Decisions won't make everyone happy - as we don't all agree on how to implement some of the value propositions. If we can keep talking and not be ugly about it - we can make a difference. I apologize if I offended anyone on this thread. There is a rationale behind decisions, and often there's just not enough bandwidth to juggle debating EVERYTHING- so sometimes you make a decision and do your best. I'd like to say I am open to input and if I have erred, I can change my mind.

Thanks.

[XXX BLK]

No "Sponsor" have complain to me about anything and most of them get on the site every now and then. They love what we are doing for them and are happy to support the club/members.....So please don't make this into sponsors vs members which are more important. BOTH are EQUALLY important.

[Wot!]

Just seeing this tread makes me happy! I have not forgotten the old days... So hats off to everyone for having an open discussion. It would be nice if it was keep more civil though by all. I commend those that have done so.

After reading all of this and trying to follow everyone's perspective I have a few thoughts to share as well.

Is seems one of ACRucrazy concerns is that current sponsors are pulling the strings and I don't believe it has been addressed. I don't believe this to be true, and will give everyone involved the benefit of doubt until otherwise proven wrong. I believe the directors are simply paying attention to how the site is used and looking to keep things as fair as possible for all members. I have to agree that if you are a business as ACRUcrazy has said he is then the business should be a sponsor. All businesses incur additional expenses over non business customers (i.e. elec. bills). If you are a business then you should also expect to pay for advertising as an expense. Trying to NOT present yourself as a business is also misleading to those buying from you. I for one did not know ACRUcrazy was a business until today.

I also don't think 3 concurrent adds works. Like Janni, I have a dozen parts to sell from my 1996 car days, and would like to list them all at once. Of course I better hurry up and beat her to it... [grin] So how do you balance this? Maybe we go with honesty and trust. If a member lists more than say 6 (random number) adds they have to attest to not being a business. If a business give them an choice, x adds as a member or become a sponsor and gain additional benefits.

I'm not fully up to date on the sponsorship plans, but could there also be a plan that allows small businesses to just advertise merchandise in the classified section only?

As a baseline for making any changes I think ACRucrazy makes a good point, the members should come first. Sponsors need them, the club needs them.

The club should also think about how we go about implementing changes. Sending an email to newly offending members might not be the best process. Perhaps an announcement with a timeframe for the change to take effect allowing for open discussion before implementing would make any future changes better received.

My suggestions are just that, so if you like them fine, if not that is fine as well. I'm a firm believer that if you can complain, then you should also present a solution.

[XXX BLK]

I just want to post a quick answer to one of Wot questions. Any business large or small can advertise in the classifieds section forum for $200/6months or $400/year. I will say again know sponsor have complain to me or influence us in any decisions. I do appreciate this open conversation..Thanks

[plumcrazy]

the very fact its being discussed openly here shows its not like the old club

[ACRucrazy]

I have to agree that if you are a business as ACRUcrazy has said he is then the business should be a sponsor. All businesses incur additional expenses over non business customers (i.e. elec. bills). If you are a business then you should also expect to pay for advertising as an expense. Trying to NOT present yourself as a business is also misleading to those buying from you. I for one did not know ACRUcrazy was a business until today.

Just to clarify, I am not a business. I never said I was nor have I ever worked for one that sells Viper parts.

This isn't about me trying to lower my expenses it's about me trying to protect what's right for members.

[Granger73]

To help prioritize the issue, how much does it cost to become a sponsor for the site? How much income are we talking about here?

[ACRucrazy]

To help prioritize the issue, how much does it cost to become a sponsor for the site? How much income are we talking about here?

From what I see:
http://driveviper.com/advertise/

$200-$1,250 every 6 months to sponsor the website.
$525-$4,000 per issue or $1,785-$13,600 for 1 year commitment (4 magazine adverts) if I am looking at that correctly. If I am wrong please correct me.

[plumcrazy]

I just want to post a quick answer to one of Wot questions. Any business large or small can advertise in the classifieds section forum for $200/6months or $400/year.

here ya go

[Red Snake]

I have no dog in this fight but i think you should ask yourselves if it is important to gain more involvement on this website or to have less. On one of the other sites, there is no charge for anyone to place as many ads as they choose. The site generates huge amounts of traffic, some of it just for the classifieds.

Personally i dont think it hurts OR helps the vendors. Members who want used parts go to individuals, and those who want new parts go to vendors. Unfettered access to the classifieds would help you generate more website traffic here, IMO.

[Drummerviper]

Man, you guys need to be anonymous . Answer as "The VOA Staff" or something.

[Thawk97]

Yeah - I have to say - this seems like creating rules for the sake of rules. The classifieds here aren't all that robust in terms of numbers to begin with. I don't really see any reason additional regulations are required. If it becomes a problem that the membership is concerned with, then open a discussion. Frankly, I don't see anything in the classifieds which merits such a decision though. Seems restrictive with only theoretical purpose. Keeping it practical feels a lot better to me.

[Nine Ball]

Yeah - I have to say - this seems like creating rules for the sake of rules. The classifieds here aren't all that robust in terms of numbers to begin with. I don't really see any reason additional regulations are required. If it becomes a problem that the membership is concerned with, then open a discussion. Frankly, I don't see anything in the classifieds which merits such a decision though. Seems restrictive with only theoretical purpose. Keeping it practical feels a lot better to me.

Agreed.

We could probably even find a volunteer that would help keep the classifieds organized/managed. Just like every other site has mods that do so.

[Granger73]

Let's take this opportunity to make the VOA classifieds the "go to" site for Viper cars and parts. Right now it is a real adventure to locate Viper specific parts.

[ViperTony]

Let's take this opportunity to make the VOA classifieds the "go to" site for Viper cars and parts. Right now it is a real adventure to locate Viper specific parts.

Apparently, the classifieds loses money too. According to the classified stats -$3,657,303.00 has been lost so far.

I don't know when or how the 3 classified ad rule was made nor who made it. In the future, it would be a good idea to give the board a heads up when these things change so we're prepared for the possible noise that may arise.

I think I understand why the rule was created and I believe it may be in response to prevent businesses from selling items in the classifieds while circumventing the sponsor fees. If this is true, then that means we must have had a situation here whereby somebody was found to be a business circumventing the sponsor fee. Who was it? And, are we sure they're a business selling parts? Were they consulted? As a board member, I am unaware of any member/issue around this that may have caused this rule to be implemented. I have not seen abuse of the classifieds in this manner on our site. So I'm perplexed as to why this rule was created.

As for me personally, this rule is an inconvenience. I have a bunch of parts I need to sell from my recent modifications. It's more than 3. Listing them in one ad is not the best way to highlight or call out specific parts in the classifieds. As a member, I don't believe I should be restricted to three ads or any limit. I'm able to list as many classifieds as I like on the Alley for free and I'm not even a paying member there.

But for me this rule is not going to harm me in any way, shape or form. I will continue on with life as normal. I'll be OK and I'll find a way to get by.

If I was in the business of selling parts, I would take advantage of the sponsorship fees/benefits. If we do have businesses posing as members skirting the sponsor fees then we need to address those members directly. Let's not punish the majority for the sake of a few, or one.

That being said, I'm not certain what spawned this rule. I'd like an explanation.

[Bugman Jeff]

I don't watch the classifieds at all, so this is news to me, but it seems obvious that someone was running a for profit business through the classifieds. If that's the case, instead of punishing ALL users, why not restrict that guy with a "hey, you're clearly running a business so sign up for sponsorship." If there was no precedent, then this ruling is arbitrary and based on what "might" happen. That kind of speculation doesn't improve the classifieds, and will only reduce the number of member to member transactions.

If the leadership feels that having unrestricted classifieds is somehow harming the community, then restrict them for non-members only. Use the three ad limit for non-members, but leave it unlimited for members. Members are paying to be here after all and it would be another membership perk.

[ViperTony]

I don't watch the classifieds at all, so this is news to me, but it seems obvious that someone was running a for profit business through the classifieds.

Who? If you don't want to post names, PM me and I'll post the name.

[Bugman Jeff]

I have no idea who it was, but it seems like instead of this one individual getting a slap on the wrist, the whole community is being punished.

[ViperTony]

I have no idea who it was, but it seems like instead of this one individual getting a slap on the wrist, the whole community is being punished.

You have no idea who it was, you don't watch the classifieds but yet it seems obvious to you that someone was running a for profit business through the classifieds? Are you Nancy Pelosi posing as a Viper owner on here?

[Bugman Jeff]

Rulings like this don't generally appear out of nowhere. Even without going through them, it was clear that a precedent was set by someone that the leadership felt was running a business through the classifieds.

[ViperTony]

Rulings like this don't generally appear out of nowhere. Even without going through them, it was clear that a precedent was set by someone that the leadership felt was running a business through the classifieds.

Nancy Pelosi, welcome to the VOA!