Should links to non paying Sponsor parts/cars be allowed on the VOA?

[Rizzo]

Another way of looking at it. If I was a sponsoring vendor I would be happy to have somebody elses prices posted as it gives me an opportunity to see whats going on out there and also to be the first one to try and get ahold of the customer looking for the part and call him or email him with the same or better offer. To me its just another opportunity to do business. I hate polictics so I could care less if they change or modify the policy and wont get in to a debate about that but I think any opportunity for a sale should be jumped on. I guess if the OP hadnt have made a post about his finding, none of the vendors on here would have ever had a chance to sell him the same part.

[ViperTony]

I think some of you are making this issue into something it is not. Some of you have articulated valid points too. But call it drama, conspiracy theories, some of you thrive on this stuff. I think some of you are drama queens too but it's your nature and frankly there's nothing really wrong with that. One of you simply enjoys stirring the pot. I also think some of you have hidden agendas against some of the sponsors as well.

One of the nice things about this club is that these discussions are not hidden, censored or suddenly closed by a coward hiding behind a generic site account. I find it ironic that some of you cry censorship when, in fact, you're not being censored. The fact that I can even state that I believe some of you are drama queens without being censored is a breath of fresh air here.

And for the record, I don't care one way or another on the issue of allowing or not allowing non-sponsor posts and pricing on the site. I know the intent of the policy and I'm OK with it. But I do care about volunteers being attacked with cowardly accusations. One really has to be a dumb ass not to be able to Google parts for better pricing. Even dumber not to call a site sponsor and ask if they could match or beat the pricing. To each their own. If some of you are so bent on not renewing your membership over this then don't let the door hit you on the way out. Go, it's OK storm out like a woman scorned. I think it's comical that for some of you the bane of your existence in this club is the issue at hand.

OR, if you really gave a shit you stay and you can help change the policy in a more effective manner:

We are a small community of owners of a limited production barely-street-legal race car. For some generations, parts are no longer made and very hard to come by if at all. We have a very small community of vendors that specialize in our Vipers. We don't have the luxury of thousands of vendors that support those other mass-produced cars.

If there's an issue with the current policy it's not about censorship, accusations, etc. it's that the policy may inadvertently deny members or enthusiasts an opportunity to source a part that is unobtainable or rare or limited. If Company XYZ makes a steel birdcage bushing for Gen1-2 Vipers that doesn't exist today and is a huge benefit to the Viper community it would be a shame that they cannot be mentioned here because of the policy. In some cases, it can be such a niche product that signing up for sponsorship eliminates whatever little margin they may be making on that birdcage. There are other examples.

You have 30+ members on the VOA national board that may listen to intelligent arguments and may bring it up for discussion. It's easy to bitch, accuse, etc. but harder to actually help solve the issue. If all you want to do is make accusations go piss off there's another club meant for that. On the other hand, if you want to help and have an intelligent, well thought out alternative on how to make this policy better you have 30+ people to work with. Your choice.

[BlknBlu]

Can we move this to another thread and let the OP work thru selling his car and the issue with a part that went bad? This discussion is bigger than that and can be worked through to resolution. I am just now seeing how this thread got changed.

thanks

Bruce

[ACRucrazy]

I am sorry ViperTony, but these 2 comments right here set the tone for this whole thread in my mind.

Nothing is beginning, we have a forum policy about non-sponsoring vendors links and sales... As many forums do... period...

There's SO no need for any sarcasm. Especially from someone that obviously places little value in our club membership.

[ViperTony]

I am sorry ViperTony, but these 2 comments right here set the tone for this whole thread in my mind.

I understand but remember I once helped you, or tried to, resolve a problem with a classified item on the other site. I think I was helpful but I know many, if not all, of the volunteers here share the same passion for helping make things better. Give it a chance. City is City and we all know he's 'special' and knowing that I understand him.

[ACRucrazy]

I understand but remember I once helped you, or tried to, resolve a problem with a classified item on the other site. I think I was helpful but I know many, if not all, of the volunteers here share the same mentality for helping. Give it a chance.

I did not forget one bit you reached out.

http://www.viperalley.com/forum/1943177-post447.html

[City]

I like this discussion, myself. One must remember that through natural selection, VOA got the some of the most vocal, opinionated, passionate folks from the VCA. Folks that were banned or censored for expressing dissatisfaction and questioning policy and being emotionally charged about it. There hasn't been much in the VOA to discuss along those lines. For many, censorship of any kind is a hot button. Most understand the social aspect of the need to censor unacceptable words and violent words, and it seems most accept that. This discussion is about censorship for business reasons. Many do not do not want the new forum to go down that road, and I'd bet the moderators prefer not to have that responsibility either. If it is necessary in order to fund the club, then so be it.

I understand both sides of the issue...but one thing I'd like to point out is that this is a 3-page (so far) open discussion on how the VOA moderates the forum. I commend the mods for not deleting any of the posts, whether positive or negative, and allowing this discussion to continue. For those of you comparing the VOA to the VCA, you know the VCA would have locked this thread long ago and probably suspended/banned a couple of you.

I've spent my money with some of the VOA sponsors, as well as finding parts cheaper elsewhere. Ultimately, it is the buyer's choice who they spend their money with. I don't believe the link should have been deleted, but I also don't think the VOA is turning into the VCA because of this one event. I'm glad to hear the VOA is at least willing to review the policy.

Another way of looking at it. If I was a sponsoring vendor I would be happy to have somebody elses prices posted as it gives me an opportunity to see whats going on out there and also to be the first one to try and get ahold of the customer looking for the part and call him or email him with the same or better offer. To me its just another opportunity to do business. I hate polictics so I could care less if they change or modify the policy and wont get in to a debate about that but I think any opportunity for a sale should be jumped on. I guess if the OP hadnt have made a post about his finding, none of the vendors on here would have ever had a chance to sell him the same part.

It's nice to see that some folks recognize that this issue, termed "censorship" in this thread (but that word's meaning far surpasses what's actually transpired), does not have an obvious and correct "fix". As I've mentioned previously (I think) there's a balance of several variables, preferences, demands and needs that are difficult (at least for me) to manage without upsetting some of the great cast of characters here on the VOA forum. It's been noted several times that a discussion towards some resolution is ongoing. It's just silly when folks simply "quit" because they don't like a particular forum occurrence. That is the way of the VCA since disagreement was not tolerated. Some of you should note (and memorialize in your heads) that many of our group of moderators, region presidents and national officers came here because we/they were the target(s) and victim(s) of circumstances similar, but FAR more vindictive, than a part link deletion with explanation. Speaking solely for myself, I am not yet convinced of the best path to resolution here (not that the ultimate decision and policy is up to me). Of course the discussion will remain open (as some have noted with my thanks).

With reference to one comment about my "sarcasm" (I can't find it to quote in the midst of this rapidly ongoing thread), I'm particularly sensitive to comparisons to the VCA. I despise all that transpired and all the people involved. They disgust me as a fellow human being, plain and simple. When we have an issue here, I get pissed off big time when someone's first comment is "this is the same as the VCA (or the like)". You could not be more wrong and I don't appreciate the reference in the least. If you go there, sorry, but sarcasm is the least you should expect from me.

[City]

There's SO no need for any sarcasm. Especially from someone that obviously places little value in our club membership.

I am sorry ViperTony, but these 2 comments right here set the tone for this whole thread in my mind.

Either I misspoke or you misunderstood. The OP was being sarcastic with regard to the VOA being the same as the VCA. I noted that the OP was not a VOA member, i.e, he "places little value in our club membership".

I'm lost as to how that can set any tone of than that of the OP's original ugly comparison.

[ACRucrazy]

With recent discussion, I am curious what the VOA Members think about this issue?

Should links to Viper related parts and/or cars be allowed on the forums if they are not to a paying sponsors website?

Example: "I found a great price on this Viper part, located here www.randoviperpartforagoodpricedotcom if anyone needs one" or "A great price to a XXXX Year Viper found here on www.ebay/autotrader/craigslist/random websitedotcom"

Just a simple yes or no works if you want. Note the results are not public, no one will see how you voted.

[City]

Can we move this to another thread and let the OP work thru selling his car and the issue with a part that went bad? This discussion is bigger than that and can be worked through to resolution. I am just now seeing how this thread got changed.

thanks

Bruce

Tony also requested this earlier. The OP and on topic responses might include 3-4 posts before this thread went off topic. I really don't know how to bisect it. I guess I could copy the entire thread and then edit both halves leaving the original 3-4 posts here and then letting the remainder continue in a separate thread under a new title. Maybe another mod has a better idea?

[ACRucrazy]

Either I misspoke or you misunderstood. The OP was being sarcastic with regard to the VOA being the same as the VCA. I noted that the OP was not a VOA member, i.e, he "places little value in our club membership".

I'm lost as to how that can set any tone of than that of the OP's original ugly comparison.

I just don't see what it matters if someone chooses to pay to be a member. To me, it came off as a negative comment since he chooses not to pay annual dues. It should never of been brought up. I rarely even look to see if someone is a VOA Member or Enthusiast. If they are a Viper owner asking for help, sharing information or have a recommendation for the VOA their input is worth exactly the same as someone who pays dues.

[BlknBlu]

Before i would answer, I would like to see how our sponsors feel about it. To me they are an important part of Viper since we are such a niche group.

Bruce

[ACRucrazy]

Also, with all the debate between members, mods, club leaders etc, I figured I would just create a simple poll if anyone cares to vote. Results are not public, no one will know how you vote:

http://driveviper.com/forums/threads...wed-on-the-VOA

[City]

Your presentation of this question is skewed. There are also so many ways to offer links to fellow members and/or find competitive pricing to utilize when calling upon one of our sponsors (for negotiation), specific links of this nature might not be all that imperative. BlknBlu also raised what is perhaps a more important question above.

Just for the sake of clarity and disclosure, aren't you, with a dozen or so Viper parts listed in our classifieds, also in the "parts business"?

[ACRucrazy]

Your presentation of this question is skewed. There are also so many ways to offer links to fellow members and/or find competitive pricing to utilize when calling upon one of our sponsors (for negotiation), specific links of this nature might not be all that imperative. BlknBlu also raised what is perhaps a more important question above.

So are sponsors more important than owners/members?

Just for the sake of clarity and disclosure, aren't you, with a dozen or so Viper parts listed in our classifieds, also in the "parts business"?

Not at all.

[ViperTony]

Also, with all the debate between members, mods, club leaders etc, I figured I would just create a simple poll if anyone cares to vote. Results are not public, no one will know how you vote:

http://driveviper.com/forums/threads...wed-on-the-VOA

Good idea on the poll!

[rw99]

The usual solution is to go ahead and discuss, rave, whatever, about non-sponsor parts or cars. But we don't post links or advertisements, instead we say "PM me for details".

The VOA site, IMO, should first and foremost be about Viper owners sharing any and all information. It's a little messy sometimes, yes. But Sponsors should know that their support does not entitle them to expect the exclusion of non-sponsor products from all discussion.

And I'll end this with a big THANK YOU to our sponsors, not just for their support of the club, but for the excellent products and service they provide. We're really fortunate.

[AZTVR]

Just for clarification, since it was brought up twice that the usage of the term censor or censorship is not really appropriate in this case, I was using the term as I learned it and as defined in the Oxford English dictionary. VERB: "Examine (a book, movie, etc.) officially and suppress unacceptable parts of it." i.e. the club's designated moderator examined the post and deleted (suppressed) a part of it.

I did not mean to imply there was any malice, ill intent, subterfuge, etc and I don't think that anyone else is.

I understand that the word censorship is often commonly used when speaking of suppression of speech or written word when that suppression is done with self serving intent. However, the word is entirely appropriate and correct here, even if one doesn't like the term. Censorship is acceptable for certain situations. That is the debate here.

[Nine Ball]

Before i would answer, I would like to see how our sponsors feel about it. To me they are an important part of Viper since we are such a niche group.

Bruce

It depends on the circumstances, for us. If I were an advertising Dodge dealership here, I wouldn't find the advertising value worthwhile if people were posting links to my competitor's cars. Same for my company, regarding wheels.

I wouldn't have a problem with people sharing links about new products on the market, but only from the product manufacturer site - something that discusses the technical specs or such of a product. Not a sales related link for that product. Unless the product is something that none of the vendors here carry, anyways. This would be considered sharing info, and can be helpful.

I frequent a lot of car sites. I only advertise on a few. The sites that allow non-sponsors to post sale ad links, give me no incentive to support that site.

Thanks,
Tony

[FLATOUT]

Voted Yes, Thanks!

But it's still a "policy" that is very difficult to get just right. Every forum does it a little differently and rarely are both sides happy, which is why I tend to air on the side of the members as without the community membership the sponsors would have no one to sell to.

Perfect example of a free market aproach that I used today with my own purchase.

I found TPMS sensors at a non site supporting vendor and also got quotes from two site supporters. Both VOA site vendors were $20 higher per sensor. I emailed the site supporter the link and asked if they would price match.

They did and got the sale. If they were not a paid sponsor here I would not have given them last look, but they are, so they did.

Andy

[City]

But it's still a "policy" that is very difficult to get just right. Every forum does it a little differently and rarely are both sides happy.

Andy

Bingo.

[City]

Just for clarification, since it was brought up twice that the usage of the term censor or censorship is not really appropriate in this case, I was using the term as I learned it and as defined in the Oxford English dictionary. VERB: "Examine (a book, movie, etc.) officially and suppress unacceptable parts of it." i.e. the club's designated moderator examined the post and deleted (suppressed) a part of it.

I did not mean to imply there was any malice, ill intent, subterfuge, etc and I don't think that anyone else is.

I understand that the word censorship is often commonly used when speaking of suppression of speech or written word when that suppression is done with self serving intent. However, the word is entirely appropriate and correct here, even if one doesn't like the term. Censorship is acceptable for certain situations. That is the debate here.

Well, if you're going all educatated here.....

You are obviously correct from the standpoint of strict definition. I took exception with the more general connotation, usage and intent, perhaps wrongly so. "Censorship", as applied to the deletion of a single link to a $35 internet discount on a $295 product to ME is alike to using a 25 pound sledgehammer to drive a thumbtack. Similar to associating this "incident" as a violation of the poster's the First Amendment rights.

[FrgMstr]

Tony also requested this earlier. The OP and on topic responses might include 3-4 posts before this thread went off topic. I really don't know how to bisect it. I guess I could copy the entire thread and then edit both halves leaving the original 3-4 posts here and then letting the remainder continue in a separate thread under a new title. Maybe another mod has a better idea?

Exactly....easy to do. Copy this thread to the appropriate forum. Delete the first few topical posts, and rename the thread. Delete the off topics from the first thread. Done. Any mod or admin should be able to do this. Only takes a few minutes.

[XSnake]

Voted No.

[SSGNRDZ_28]

I don’t think there is a policy that will work 100% of the time. As a Viper owner I welcome any and all information on products out there for my car. As Nine Ball eludes to, if no current sponsor offers a similar product what’s the harm in sharing that information. Maybe that non-sponsor will become more aware of the community and even eventually become a sponsor.

This said, it would be very difficult and time consuming for the moderators to make decisions on what links should be allowed without simple rules (sponsor=yes, non-sponsor=no). In the end someone would always feel cheated with the decision.

At the same time, the sponsors need to have a reason to support the forums. Sponsors not only pay for that title but are often asked to donate to raffles / etc. There are advantages and disadvantages to being a sponsor here (for example sponsors are not eligible for the door prize at homecoming as it would look like a “fixed” drawing if they won). So the advantages need to outweigh the disadvantages to maintain the relationship. Allowing promotion of products is one of those perks.