Should links to non paying Sponsor parts/cars be allowed on the VOA?

[Whitemamba]

Where is the bashing coming from? If anything the mods were ganging up on the OP for saying "And so it begins"

How do I want the board run? I want links to be shared. I want no restrictions on what information can be posted based on annual "sponsor" dues.

I get it.. it's a lot of money... what 35 or so "sponsors" paying $400 to $2500 per year to advertise on the forums... and another $525 to $4000 if they want to advertise in 4 issues of Viper quarterly. It's not about protecting the sponsors. It never has been on any site I've been on. It's about protecting the money coming in from those sponsors.

Money money money!

Let me just put this question out there to you. Are you a paying sponsor? If not, then you probably would feel different if you were. Would you like to see your money wasted because you paid the right to advertise and someone else was getting it for free and thus could offset their price accordingly.

[ACRucrazy]

I disagree completely. All you have to do is put yourself in one of the vendors shoes. Why even be a paying vendor if your competition gets the service for free?

How does someone posting a link to something that is sold by a non paying vendor/sponsor the same thing?

If I post a link to an eBay auction or something on craigslist or some random site to a car or car part, is that the same thing paying sponsors are getting? No!

http://driveviper.com/advertise/

Paying to be a sponsor gets you:

The Viper Owners Association wants to establish a thriving vendor connection as a resource to its club members. There are terrific opportunities for businesses to connect directly to Viper owners and enthusiasts to help spread the word on their products and services. That connection can be made through the following two methods:
Website - Rotating, static, and/or animated banners on the national website
Viper Quarterly - Multiple ad options for placement in our Viper magazine

And:

In addition to ANY of the above choices you choose, you will also receive these value adds:
Your forum avatar will have the title of "site sponsor"
You will be allowed a custom signature on your posts
You will receive a dedicated forum in the "Vendor Showcase" for your company
Your full size banner will be added to a sponsor page (with link to your website)
You can request customized statistics for web usage/hits on your banner(s)

A link to something sold elsewhere does not get you those things. They are not getting anything for free. They are most likely not even aware it was shared on the forums. It is word of mouth spread by the members. If a sponsor wants to chime and and say they can offer the competitive price on whatever it is, by all means they have the right to do so, however they are paying to sponsor their business, not block information sharing.

If a sponsor wants to pay to be in Viper Quarterly that is their choice. They get:

Advertise in Viper Quarterly

Current Ad pricing for Viper Quarterly is below:
15% discount on Standard Rates for ads placed for 1 year (4 issues)
10% additional discount for ads placed before 31 January 2014
Early Bird special, commit to 1 year before Jan 31, 2014 and get a 25% discount!
Position Standard Rate/issue Early Bird Special/issue
Inside Front Cover $3000 $2250
Inside Back Cover $3000 $2250
Back Cover* $4000
Spread (2 pages) $4000 $3000
Full Page $2500 $1875
½ Page $1300 $975
¼ Page $700 $525
*only available on a quarterly basis, limited to availability

I am so sick of this behind closed doors crap on the Viper forums. It's the only automotive forum I have ever seen it on. For moderators and leaders to tell members to keep it to PM is absolutely insane. Where people need to discuss info through PM like its a cloak and dagger society. Where parts are advertised by vendors by prices are not posted. It's like you need to be in the good old boys club to get a certain price or info and if your're not you are wondering if you are paying more than the next guy. It absolutely boggles my mind. But then why should it, when there is this kind of money floating around between members, groups, and the "club" is it really any surprise?

I am a paying member who has shelled out a lot of money in the less than a year to be a mamba member, get a number, and two tickets to NVE. My voice is every bit as valid as the moderators and presidents. My voice is every bit as valid as a non paying member who participates on the forums. Just because I pay to have a magazine show up and get a number and other benefits does not mean my opinions and posts hold more water than an active member who chooses not to pay for those perks. Without active members there is no VOA.

I will only continue to pay dues when I see value in it. If my posts and others are going to be limited because some paying sponsors might be worried about a random post here and there to something for sale cheaper than what they might offer I am done. I thought we moved on from this crap. It was one of the biggest complaints by many from VCA. I will not be censored like that. If I find something cool or a good deal I will share it with hopes of a fellow member getting a deal. If a vendor can't handle that and has to complain about it that is their problem. If the VOA want's to try and bully members and edit posts to try and protect cash flow of sponsors it will be the VOAs death knell. The VOA better look in the mirror long and hard on this.

[Steve M]

Random question from the peanut gallery: where does the vendor money go? I understand why other forums have vendors that pay to advertise - it is their only source of revenue to keep the site up and running (servers, etc.). Here we have paying members AND paying vendors, and I don't understand how that is split out (or if it even is split out).

[City]

How does someone posting a link to something that is sold by a non paying vendor/sponsor the same thing?

If I post a link to an eBay auction or something on craigslist or some random site to a car or car part, is that the same thing paying sponsors are getting? No!

http://driveviper.com/advertise/

Paying to be a sponsor gets you:



And:



A link to something sold elsewhere does not get you those things. They are not getting anything for free. They are most likely not even aware it was shared on the forums. It is word of mouth spread by the members. If a sponsor wants to chime and and say they can offer the competitive price on whatever it is, by all means they have the right to do so, however they are paying to sponsor their business, not block information sharing.

If a sponsor wants to pay to be in Viper Quarterly that is their choice. They get:



I am so sick of this behind closed doors crap on the Viper forums. It's the automotive only forum I have ever seen it on. For moderators and leaders to tell members to keep it to PM is absolutely insane. Where people need to discuss info through PM like its a cloak and dagger society. Where parts are advertised by vendors by prices are not posted. It's like you need to be in the good old boys club to get a certain price or info and if your're not you are wondering if you are paying more than the next guy. It absolutely boggles my mind. But then why should it, when there is this kind of money floating around between members, groups, and the "club" is it really any surprise?

I am a paying member who has shelled out a lot of money in the less than a year to be a mamba member, get a number, and two tickets to NVE. My voice is every bit as valid as the moderators and presidents. My voice is every bit as valid as a non paying member who participates on the forums. Just because I pay to have a magazine show up and get a number and other benefits does not mean my opinions and posts hold more water than an active member who chooses not to pay for those perks. Without active members there is no VOA.

I will only continue to pay dues when I see value in it. If my posts and others are going to be limited because some paying sponsors might be worried about a random post here and there to something for sale cheaper than what they might offer I am done. I thought we moved on from this crap. It was one of the biggest complaints by many from VCA. I will not be censored like that. If I find something cool or a good deal I will share it with hopes of a fellow member getting a deal. If a vendor can't handle that and has to complain about it that is their problem. If the VOA want's to try and bully members and edit posts to try and protect cash flow of sponsors it will be the VOAs death knell. The VOA better look in the mirror long and hard on this.

I won't debate your opinion(s) because they are all valid, and despite your claims to the contrary, a discussion is ensuing. I do however, think that your are so far over the top with regard to the level of your concern and drama that it's sort of freaking me out here. No one is or has suggested that you are somehow "less valid" nor is there any "bullying". I'd also like to believe that the deleted link of a non-VOA member would not be tantamount to the ringing of the VOA's death knell. If you truly believe that this single "rule" makes us equivalent to the VCA, then you're loosing your grip on reality. I cannot for the life of me understand why you feel so threatened here, in a discussion regarding the potential for the deletion of forum links.

We're all here reading this thread with great interest, but the opinions expressed to this point are far from conclusive and seem to represent a few highly over-excited members. We all get it; no one likes rules. But we're trying to maintain a balance that is most difficult, and as Janni mentioned, we not at all opposed to change when appropriate. Although, as the VOA death knell tolls, I sort of wonder if I shouldn't be packing my survival gear and get my family out to the bunker.

[ACRucrazy]

No one is or has suggested that you are somehow "less valid" nor is there any "bullying".

Yet you and Janni both suggest that Timnineside is "less valid" since he is a non paying member

There's SO no need for any sarcasm. Especially from someone that obviously places little value in our club membership.
..
And about that "and so it begins"... A simple noun that rhymes with pool will work.

Just to be clear - a paying community member's post was NOT edited.

[Mr White]

Let me just put this question out there to you. Are you a paying sponsor? If not, then you probably would feel different if you were. Would you like to see your money wasted because you paid the right to advertise and someone else was getting it for free and thus could offset their price accordingly.

We are not the sponsors' sheep, and paying for a sponsorship isn't the privilege to be our shepherd.

I value their contributions, but if that gives them privilege to put a pair of blinders on people, the value of the forums will degrade.

[Janni]

I mentioned that he was not a member because someone else had mentioned that "paying members posts are being deleted" or something to that effect (or at least that is how I read it) certainly no disrespect to the OP or trying to marginalize him. Just - a clarification.

Discussion is ensuing. As you can see here - there are VOA members on both sides of this issue, so it's not a particularly clear cut issue of allowing links is a 100% slam dunk and supported by everyone....

City is the keeper of the forum, the moderators and that community have pretty large discretion on interpreting policy and making recommendations. I am looking into this -others are too - several are pretty busy organizing our first national event.

I don't know what more I can do to say we're not adverse to change - but we'd want to query more folks - including the vendors, and try to do our best. Ultimately - that's all we can do- and we know we won't please everyone all the time. It' a fact of life - but it should would be nice if folks wouldn't take things to such a personal level / blow things like this out of proportion (it seems to go from 0-60 in the "you idiots are just as bad as the VCA" in about 2.8 seconds.)

Vendor advertising money - like dues - goes to all aspects of the club operations - keeping this site running, insurance, City's massive salary (JUST KIDDING PEOPLE - SETTLE DOWN)..., conference calling system to have calls with the Presidents, and a host of other expenses. Brad can give an idea of expenses- but overall - we're pretty lean.

It would be nice if the level of animosity and threatening tone / VCA comparison could be ratcheted down and we could maintain a level of courtesy to one another that we would afford in a face to face conversation.

[CarolinaViper]

If everyone would stop and take a minute to think of the initial cause without the added hyperbole it concerns they deleting of a link when there was no rules or understanding concerning such. The moderators are saying one thing and then another. The issue is not about vendors its about "Moderators" having the liberty to delete/edit threads when there is no clear cut rules. "Viper Girl" did a great job in responding to why she did it...Right or Wrong she at least explained why. The others (to include myself) responded in their reasons of why it was wrong. No sarcasm was related until "City" responded, after that the flood waters rushed with all responses.

No one believes this is going to be the start of the end for the VOA. IMO what should have been done and maybe will after some time, someone in leadership will see that its a hot topic and will join in and say the situation will be looked into and addressed with the region presidents throughout the club for further clarification.

To all those who responded go back and read your individual post and those of other's without the criticism and look for common ground to fix this problem. After reading the post I think "ACRucrazy" has some valid similarities that go back to the VCA and other forums he has been with. More important you know those VCA members are loving this thread. Lets, let cooler heads prevail (with membership approval if needed) and move on.

[TrackAire]

If I was a paying sponsor I would rather see that than having that non-paying sponsors links and goods advertised constantly. Let's just use another example here of a person who sells brake pads or wheels. The person who pays to advertise is cutting into his profit margin for every place he advertises. Do you think it is fair to that person to have someone go around posting links of a competitors wheels or brake pads just because they are cheaper? If you owned a restaurant and you paid to have billboards with your restaurants information on said billboard, would you think it was fair to have someone come along and place a big sticker on the billboard you paid to advertise on?

Let's just make another hypothetical comparison, let's suppose you were Borla and you were selling a catback exhaust for $1000 and were a paying vendor. Do you think it would be right for Corsa to come in and start posting ads even though they were not a sponsor? And then you might have a third vendor who was a retailer for both of the products come in and undersell both because he was just looking to get exposure for his company and was willing to take a small loss on said exhaust. Would that be fair to the paying vendor?

I understand the explanation of your version of what you think a vendor is paying for on this forum. I respectfully disagree and would suggest that the real value to a sponsoring vendor is the ability to communicate on this forum their products, services and advice directly to each forum member. If you take the number of visiting people to this site and divide it by the dollars a paying vendor spends for the banner ad, it really is not a great deal. But, the advantage is the vendor can post products, pricing, advice, etc on this forum. That is what sets them apart from the world of flea bay, RockAuto, etc. Being able to actually communicate with a potential customer is huge....how many vendors talk to a customer for a small part (lets say an MGW shifter) and end up selling them multiple other parts? If I understand it correctly, non paying vendors cannot log on and talk with forum members on this site.....which IMO is the correct rule.

Please realize that if a potential customer (that does not visit this forum ever) googles a Chrysler part number or description, he may or may not get a sponsoring forum member as a potential seller. Since this thread is about window regulators, I googled "Viper window regulator for sale", "Viper window regulator", "replacement Viper window regulator" and "Viper window regulator dealer". Going back up to 6 pages of google search, only one VOA sponsoring vendor came up, "The Viper Store". (The VPA was generally on the first page of most searches). So here is a product that the other forum sponsoring vendors would never even get a hit on, but if the link posted on this forum was visible to them, they'd have direct communication not only with Tim looking for the regulator, but all others viewing this forum, today and in future searches for as long as this forum is up.

Also, what if the link posted by a forum member is for a part that no VOA sponsoring vendor sells or has ever sold? How does that help the Viper owner? If the sponsoring vendor did not know it exists, he now has access to the knowledge and can become a dealer for that new part, again helping him grow his business. Again, holding back knowledge will hurt the entire Viper market place and actually hurt sponsoring vendors ultimate sales.

I would think asking the forum sponsors their opinion would be key, especially after they've reviewed this thread and the concerns listed. Hopefully everyone can come to a conclusion that most feel good about....unfortunately it will be impossible to make everybody happy.

Cheers,
George

[plumcrazy]

im just glad i didnt delete the thread or link and cause an uprising for once. LOL

[IndyRon]

It's truly amazing to me that this is already about money. If it weren't, we would say that the members have a right to post about whatever they want. After all, how in the world is a link to a specific product deep down in a thread within a subforum of this website a form of unpaid advertising? Like I said earlier, I personally have spent over $7000 with VOA contributing vendors in the last 3 months and call some of them friends but this forum is about the MEMBERS, not vendors. I value freedom of speech above money issues.

If the forum can't have freedom of speech, then just let the vendors be a part for free and we will make do with the slight decrease in revenue as a community and find other ways to pay the bills. I will remove my past threads that provide a fair amount of knowledge including installations of vendor products with pictures, how-to's, product reviews, and overall platform information as well as discontinue membership if free speech is no longer a tenet of this forum.

I like many of the people in the club and made many lasting friendships so I don't say this without an amount of sadness. This forum doesn't belong to the mods/presidents/VP's and isn't run by them if done correctly...It should be much like our gov't was initially designed to be...an ideal....like democracy. Take ownership in the idea and further the idea...not possess the accomplishment. Free speech and opinions should not and can not be stifled, repressed, or just plain removed with unilateral discretion.

This should be a public vote on the forum as to whether or not mods can arbitrarily delete ANY content they feel is a threat to business for a vendor. Lets vote....prove the VOA is different.

[Viper Girl]

I am going to explain what I did and why more indepth.


Yes, I deleted the link... Nothing else in Timinsides post was deleted... I removed the link because it is my understanding that is our forum moderator policy. The VOA runs a very lightly moderated forum here, and sometimes we do step in.

Mods don't make policy, we have been asked what we think... But we don't make policy.

I felt that my explanation was sufficient to the action I took at the time... The link was a general link to a parts site I had not seen before. The link was not directly to the part, I searched for window regulators and saw a listing with a price that didn't include a part number. I came back to the site, said why I deleted the link... Mentioned the ending of the current generation of that part. I think it would suck to order the part then get the crappy old one that breaks... To me, that was what I was supposed to do. We don't have an anon- moderator account here, I did delete the link. We have always been told if we do something leave a reason. I did that. I am truly sorry, this has turned into a huge firestorm. It was not my intention. Personal attacks, wasn't my intention...

I can also tell you from my time here moderating... (I am member #14 so there are 13 others here longer... ) In all that time, the VOA hasn't - in my personal experience - and isn't now about Money, Money, Money... as some are now accusing. I think some of that is anger and frustration with what has happened in our community recently.

I can tell you every volunteer here works hard. This club has been about setting up a cool place for everyone to come hang and socialize... Doing more for members... not to members.... Really...

Yes, money comes in... and guess what? Half of the membership fee goes back to the region... The rest goes out too... I'm not in accounting... but if you look at what we have here... it has to...

Vendors pay for the forums and that beautiful magazine we recently received... All of that costs real world dollars... This isn't a for profit club or forum... It's non-profit...
Our NVE event in July... Giving away a freaking Gen V... If anything, this club is working to figure out how to give back more to it's members...

It's never been about take away from the members, or anyone for that matter... It's really discouraging to me that this is what some members think. It coldn't be further from the truth.

We don't have a huge profitable forum. BUT please, lets compare apples to apples... We are a new forum, with changes that will inevitably happen as we grow more... We are a small community, with limited manufacturers for parts... Some Vendors who specialize in our favorite car... Some who are new to our community, which is awesome... The Viper World is a very small World. We need members, vendors, manufacturers and volunteers to keep all this running, and somehow find a middle ground for all.

Which I'm convinced we can do, if we all work together.

[Mr White]

I can also tell you from my time here moderating... (I am member #14 so there are 13 others here longer... ) In all that time, the VOA hasn't - in my personal experience - and isn't now about Money, Money, Money... as some are now accusing. I think some of that is anger and frustration with what has happened in our community recently.

Your actions were that of someone who was protecting a business who's primary job is to sell advertisements; I would expect nothing less than outrage.

People will articulate their thoughts in many different ways, but that is what it all boils down to. Many people here could probably tell you where that leads to.

[Janni]

Your actions were that of someone who was protecting a business who's primary job is to sell advertisements; I would expect nothing less than outrage.

People will articulate their thoughts in many different ways, but that is what it all boils down to. Many people here could probably tell you where that leads to.

That's BS and uncalled for.

Advertisers expect something for their dollar. Members expect something for their dollar. The VOA tries to provide value in membership - both in providing forums, insurance, magazines, national events, central membership processing / renewals, access to merchandise, common branding and consistency, all so that regions can focus on having fun with cars without dealing with all the administration 30+ times over, and we can bring together the larger community of Viper owners under a single umbrella.

There is ZERO evidence that the primary purpose here is to sell advertisements.

It's precisely that shit that makes volunteers sick and tired of devoting time and effort trying to do the right thing only to have their integrity questioned. My "pay" isn't worth it - nor is ViperGirls.

I'll bring this general topic up for further review - but after that messed up comment

Janni OUT.

[IndyRon]

That's BS and uncalled for.

Advertisers expect something for their dollar. Members expect something for their dollar. The VOA tries to provide value in membership - both in providing forums, insurance, magazines, national events, central membership processing / renewals, access to merchandise, common branding and consistency, all so that regions can focus on having fun with cars without dealing with all the administration 30+ times over, and we can bring together the larger community of Viper owners under a single umbrella.

There is ZERO evidence that the primary purpose here is to sell advertisements.

It's precisely that shit that makes volunteers sick and tired of devoting time and effort trying to do the right thing only to have their integrity questioned. My "pay" isn't worth it - nor is ViperGirls.

I'll bring this general topic up for further review - but after that messed up comment

Janni OUT.

"Something for their dollar" does not include CENSORSHIP....period. They get access, unlimited and unfettered ability to directly contact their exact demographic for their business as well as obvious direct advertisement in the form of banners/ads/etc. That's it!

[Timnineside]

Wow, a lot has happened to this thread. I don't even know where to start.

First, I didn't expect the VOA to go this route so I will have to admit I was caught off guard a bit. I am a business owner and its how I make a living. That's all I do and I see the benefit in every which way possible so I can understand the concern. At the same time I don't shun people from my competitors. I make sure what I do is better so they want to deal with me. Some do, some don't its the cost of doing business.

Deleting the link is fine, I could honestly care less. I've already found what I need and I suppose that's all that matters correct? I mean considering I don't pay to be on here. Of course there are reason's I don't pay to be here. For the same reasons I don't pay to be on the VCA anymore (this may come as a shock but not only did I pay, I was a Venom member!? Wow shocking right?). It's honestly a cluster fuck since all the BS went down and I'm just sitting back letting everyone figure their own personal issues that seemed to be getting carried over to these so called "for business" enthusiast forums. In all honesty I had full intentions of becoming a VOA member as soon as events started becoming more local and something I could benefit from. Can I benefit from this site? Sure, well at least I thought I could. But if this is the way things are then so be it. I'm too busy to deal with this. And before someone jumps the gun on coming to the CAAP I've already been there, also read the thread on charging people for dinner. Can't say I agree with that but that's another story.

Job B, in all honestly your comment pisses me off a bit. Thanks for the "FREE" decals. Such a big help you are bud. If you'd like I can vectorize them and send you a few hundred back. These would be free to you of course, but keep in mind I will throw it in your face later. Would that make you feel better? That seemed to be your biggest concern. Maybe I'll send some to Austin and other "non-Viper" owners. I spend almost $4k with you over the past few years and this is what really matters to you? Maybe you should update your website with things you have so people don't have to inconvenience you via email.


I'll go ahead and wrap this up. Feel free to delete my "add", delete my account and piss off.

-Tim

[Timnineside]

I don't see what the harm is in providing non site sponsored links, especially if the site sponsors are more than willing to be on par if not even a better deal. Sometimes you are searching for parts/services late at night or on the weekends, or the site sponsor doesn't have everything listed either.

Personally I think the *more* information that is posted here is better than trying to maintain a barrier... *removing* information that is posted is just another source of needless aggravation, imo.

Just needed to go back to this. This was, and usually is my case. I'm too busy during the day to handle anything non-business related so I end up online at night looking for things I need that I can't get locally.

I'm all about supporting the vendors, but one thing I will not do is overpay for things. I'm not in a position to piss away $1200 for a $200 part. Even if I was, I refuse to. Yeah sure I can call and get some "free" advice but it sounds like if I'm over paying for the part I'm paying for that advice either way. Why not go to the dealership?

A discussion in a thread is just that. I didn't start a thread to say screw the vendors, from my research this part was hitting people for a few hundred bucks over what I found it for. I thought I would share that. Now what happens when people like myself don't share these? Do you want to pay $1200 for the same part? If you do I will be more then happy to sell you a few (After I pay to be a member or supporting vendor of course). Giving a "vendor" a chance to meet or beat a price is complete shit. Sell the damn part for what you need to to make a living. That's the end of it. Other then that your gouging and that's not fair in my opinion.

[commandomatt]

Advertisers expect something for their dollar. Members expect something for their dollar.

Janni OUT.

'advertisers expect something for their dollar'

The sponsors buy the right to advertise. They do not buy the right to Monopolize.

The sponsors are here, supporting the site because they choose to. They know that their advertising will reach a certain amount of people. That's all they can expect for their dollar. The VOA is not telling them that they will get an exclusive on promoting certain parts and services. Advertising is nothing but a gamble and there are no guarantees that it will lead to anything. People that run businesses understand this

'Members expect something for their dollar'

I want to read about what others have done to their cars. What worked and what didn't. Other owners experiences. I did not join, and have zero interest in magazines, insurances, national events, local events or any other perks that are considered a 'value' by others. Each and every person has their reasons why they are involved with this site

So by removing information that may impact a decision that I make about my car, you are effectively taking away the one reason I am a member of this site.

I realize that this may just be one incident but that is how it begins. I hope that this thread doesn't go away but stays active to ensure that this is discussed and dealt with before it spins out of control

[Chorps]

I see that there are a lot of emotionally charged posts here, I'd personally prefer that people dialled down the rhetoric and accusations...if everyone can take a deep breath and relax maybe we can sort this out without ad hominems and raised voices (or bold faced type, as it were).

I understand everyone is passionate about their Vipers and passionate about this place, but asking 'someone why they are here', or 'threatening to quit' is not a helpful way of moving the discussion forward. People can disagree about things and still be friends, am I right? Let's just work out a coherent and thoughtful (and perhaps nuanced) policy.

Like I was saying before, rarely have protectionist policies worked. Giving sponsoring vendors a platform and airtime is great. Forcing people (not businesses trying to freeload) to self-censor informational posts, not so great.

I'm not going to put a lot else in this post, I think FrgMstr's position echoes mine, and he appears to have a lot more experience and legitimacy so I'll let him do all the talking.

[ACRucrazy]

[AbsolutHank]

Wow, a lot has happened to this thread. I don't even know where to start.

First, I didn't expect the VOA to go this route so I will have to admit I was caught off guard a bit. I am a business owner and its how I make a living. That's all I do and I see the benefit in every which way possible so I can understand the concern. At the same time I don't shun people from my competitors. I make sure what I do is better so they want to deal with me. Some do, some don't its the cost of doing business.

Deleting the link is fine, I could honestly care less. I've already found what I need and I suppose that's all that matters correct? I mean considering I don't pay to be on here. Of course there are reason's I don't pay to be here. For the same reasons I don't pay to be on the VCA anymore (this may come as a shock but not only did I pay, I was a Venom member!? Wow shocking right?). It's honestly a cluster fuck since all the BS went down and I'm just sitting back letting everyone figure their own personal issues that seemed to be getting carried over to these so called "for business" enthusiast forums. In all honesty I had full intentions of becoming a VOA member as soon as events started becoming more local and something I could benefit from. Can I benefit from this site? Sure, well at least I thought I could. But if this is the way things are then so be it. I'm too busy to deal with this. And before someone jumps the gun on coming to the CAAP I've already been there, also read the thread on charging people for dinner. Can't say I agree with that but that's another story.

Job B, in all honestly your comment pisses me off a bit. Thanks for the "FREE" decals. Such a big help you are bud. If you'd like I can vectorize them and send you a few hundred back. These would be free to you of course, but keep in mind I will throw it in your face later. Would that make you feel better? That seemed to be your biggest concern. Maybe I'll send some to Austin and other "non-Viper" owners. I spend almost $4k with you over the past few years and this is what really matters to you? Maybe you should update your website with things you have so people don't have to inconvenience you via email.


I'll go ahead and wrap this up. Feel free to delete my "add", delete my account and piss off.

-Tim

BOOM! Headshot!!

[AZTVR]

I like this discussion, myself. One must remember that through natural selection, VOA got the some of the most vocal, opinionated, passionate folks from the VCA. Folks that were banned or censored for expressing dissatisfaction and questioning policy and being emotionally charged about it. There hasn't been much in the VOA to discuss along those lines. For many, censorship of any kind is a hot button. Most understand the social aspect of the need to censor unacceptable words and violent words, and it seems most accept that. This discussion is about censorship for business reasons. Many do not do not want the new forum to go down that road, and I'd bet the moderators prefer not to have that responsibility either. If it is necessary in order to fund the club, then so be it.

[FrgMstr]

Mods don't make policy, we have been asked what we think... But we don't make policy.

I posted this question earlier and it was ignored. And none of my thoughts have been based on "money," but rather COMMUNITY and those have not been responded to either...

What exactly does the "policy" state? Let's state that right here and now so we are all on the same page and know what is being enforced. How will that policy exactly be enforced?

[98intrigue]

I understand both sides of the issue...but one thing I'd like to point out is that this is a 3-page (so far) open discussion on how the VOA moderates the forum. I commend the mods for not deleting any of the posts, whether positive or negative, and allowing this discussion to continue. For those of you comparing the VOA to the VCA, you know the VCA would have locked this thread long ago and probably suspended/banned a couple of you.

I've spent my money with some of the VOA sponsors, as well as finding parts cheaper elsewhere. Ultimately, it is the buyer's choice who they spend their money with. I don't believe the link should have been deleted, but I also don't think the VOA is turning into the VCA because of this one event. I'm glad to hear the VOA is at least willing to review the policy.

[Shooter]

I understand both sides of the issue...but one thing I'd like to point out is that this is a 3-page (so far) open discussion on how the VOA moderates the forum. I commend the mods for not deleting any of the posts, whether positive or negative, and allowing this discussion to continue. For those of you comparing the VOA to the VCA, you know the VCA would have locked this thread long ago and probably suspended/banned a couple of you.

I've spent my money with some of the VOA sponsors, as well as finding parts cheaper elsewhere. Ultimately, it is the buyer's choice who they spend their money with. I don't believe the link should have been deleted, but I also don't think the VOA is turning into the VCA because of this one event. I'm glad to hear the VOA is at least willing to review the policy.

This.