Should links to non paying Sponsor parts/cars be allowed on the VOA?

[ACRucrazy]

Sorry, I had to edit out the link...

There wasn't a part number listed, I would make sure what the actual part number is. I believe the new one is an AH

Nothing is beginning, we have a forum policy about non-sponsoring vendors links and sales... As many forums do... period...

Our vendors have been selling them at $295...

There's SO no need for any sarcasm. Especially from someone that obviously places little value in our club membership.

Despite that, why not find the least expensive price on-line and then contact any one of our sponsors to see what they can do for you? Assuming you're a VOA member, I'd wager that you'll do better overall (between shipping costs and speed, customer service/any installation questions and especially product warranty). Our sponsors have a serious stake in providing excellent prices and service to VOA members and often will give VOA members a "non-published" discount when asked. They might even match an "Oogle" price. Ohh, and have fun returning a poorly functioning or prematurely dysfunctioning part to "Oogle". See how great you'll feel about your "$260 plus shipping all day" savings.

And about that "and so it begins"... A simple noun that rhymes with pool will work.

All our policies are posted in the "New Owner Questions & Introductions" area. I don't believe there is a "rule" that specifically addresses this situation, but more importantly, I'm not understanding your disagreement. Perhaps it would be more appropriate to suggest that you're not understanding our (the VOA Website) concerns. We have site sponsors that pay for their right to advertise their products and services. Those payments constitute a material portion of the VOA's annual income stream for operations. In their position, wouldn't you take exception with a post that linked to a competing website for a Viper product? Such a "posting limitation" in no way prohibits anyone from searching out and purchasing a product from a non-vendor at a presumably less expensive price, nor does it prohibit anyone from using any search engine to seek alternative means of purchasing a product. Heck, a association member (or in this case an enthusiast) can be contacted via a PM to obtain a link of this nature, not that one couldn't find it themselves. How difficult is that? All we're asking, in full support of our sponsors, is that folks don't make it so obvious as to publish their findings.

This really isn't some freedom of speech issue.

Advance this even further down the line when a thread has links to a site selling a Viper product that doesn't "deliver" (either the goods altogether, damaged or faulty goods or used goods). Then WE'd be blamed for not investigating the linked website. Not that such an argument would be sensible, but there's no doubt some would find a way to find us at fault.

In any event, we're not trying to be dogmatic here. We're just trying to balance the intricacies of several players. I'm hoping if you take an objective view you can see both sides.

the private message function works very well here, if you see it cheaper, from a non VOA supporting member, its VERY SIMPLE, PM the info asap to them. but the VOA does need to support its vendors, they help to make this all possible...

Seems to me Viper Girl, City and plumcrazy and any other forum leader really need to rethink what tactics and "rules" they are trying to enforce here. All of this reeks of forum past and it tastes dirty. Ick. Fresh blood never hurt.. maybe its time..

Slippery slope and I am done!

[99RT10]

You're certainly entitled to your opinion and frankly, I've got no issue bringing it up to see if there's some room for compromise. I just don't see how our removing direct links can be construed as "forcing members" to or from any purchase.

Nonetheless, I'll recommend that it's revisited. No promises, but I'd like to think we're at least open to discussion.

City,
You are taking away choice. When doing that and the information that could help other members, you are forcing members elsewhere. If that price is a great price, I absolutely think it should stay up and allow the sponsors to come in behind and offer to beat that price. Free market is a great thing, don't kill it like the mOrgue did. If this place turns even slightly that way, I am outta here.

[99RT10]

I have made a lot of purchases from the vendors that advertise here and are PART of the community. I rely on these vendors for their expertise and knowledge. If I utilize that, and many times I do, I make sure to spend my money with those companies even if the price might be a bit more than I can find elsewhere. That said, if I need an off-the-shelf Chrysler part and no guidance on the purchase that I can find cheaper elsewhere, I might choose to spend my money there.

Removing links to "outside" vendors on these non-specialized parts is not good for the community here. There seems to be no rule as to posting these links and removing those links is simply not a good thing overall for the Viper community. The fact is that the advertisers here DO NOT make the VOA forums possible. The VOA MEMBERS make all this possible. Without VOA MEMBERS there would be no need for the forums nor the advertisers.

I want the management to hear me out on this. I own and manage a forum (www.HardForum.com) that has 189,000 registered members with over 1,000,000 threads posted. At the moment of typing this we have over 5,000 people reading our forums. I have run these forums for over 15 years. Going in and deleting thread content of this type is destructive to the community and even the advertisers. Censoring individual statements and links about purchasing is BAD for VOA business. Is it possible for the advertisers to lose out on a few sales? Yes. Is it possible for customers to realize the value of supporting the Viper community vendors because of how they might get treated by other vendors? Yes.

The VOA is heading down the wrong road with deleting paying members posts that reference a company that is not an advertiser here. You will cause a lot of hatred and animosity that will not be easily undone. If you want to keep an eye on posters that seem to be spamming for free advertisements, then handle that as you see fit. Competition makes businesses stronger. The advertisers here can take that competition and make it pay off spades through pricing, knowledge, advisement, and customer service. The VOA is not doing its paying members justice by deleting links that point outside of VOA advertisers. I think the VOA upper echelon needs to get together and have a discussion about this. I have gone down this road with a similar bad policy, and I can assure you that it does nothing good for the VOA overall and simply angers your members to the point of leaving.

Best damn post of the thread!!!!! The forum is here because of the Members! Not the sponsors! Everybody got that?

[Leslie]

I also didn't realize we were limited on posting links. That surprises me.
I choose Partsrack because of the great service, but I DO think it's the member's choice where they go for parts....and the freedom of speech.

[whitebeard]

Going after a mod on a personal level for something isn't what being a member is bout. That give me the worst sort of feeling.

We have to balance everything here and try to. It's not easy and not liked by some. But we are not here to be liked by anyone. We are tying to be fair and follow some degree of decorum. So lets go the other direction. Lets put this to a person who runs a company out of his garage selling parts to the community. He is not a paid sponsor or a vendor here. But he can post his wares with impunity to the membership because he is considered a "paid member in good standing". Lets say the same person has had poor customer service and is known for not performing to his customer's expectation. But he has no track record here. Or some don't know him since they just bought a second or third hand car and looking to mod it.

Is this the way you want the board run? I wouldn't. I want to know who I am dealing with. And I can PM someone if there is something i need to know more about. Lastly what if the product installed doesn't fit the model of car the person has? Can you use a part from the 94 RT-10 on a 2004 SRT? Even so far as a door actuator? I don't know off top of my head. But I bet I can find out fairly fast by calling one or two numbers. Or ask in a PM.

But bashing VG, City Plum or any mod isn't the best method of getting you point across. What is does is make folks less likely to consider your point of view.

If you want to add me to the list of un-favorites, then do so. I'm lucky. My world is in computers; Reboot, reformat, and install the software as needed.

[commandomatt]

The sponsors do not own this site. The power it has is created by a large membership.

I doubt that this forum would seize to exist if we didn't have any sponsors

I to prefer to have choices and part of what's great about a large membership is all the information that will surface. Good and bad of course but that is the nature of a public forum.

The quick removal of a post like what happened in this thread is certainly very uncomfortable. To suggest that the forum has to validate all the sellers and products that surface on the forum is a bit ridiculous. We are all adults and if I choose to buy something from a non sponsor, and this part turns out to not work, the last thing I would do is contact VOA to complain. I choose to buy it....my problem

If anything, the moderator could put a comment in said post saying that 'this product is not offered by a VOA sponsor'. That's as far as I would take this control. Anything more is telling me what I should buy and from whom and that is frankly none of VOA's business.

[FrgMstr]

While personal attacks should not be allowed (even though your signature somewhat promotes it), let's not lose focus of the real issue here with this distraction.

Moderators do NOT make policy, but rather enforce policies put down by the VOA. From my perspective the moderator overstepped their bounds with this action. Moderators on my forums do not have the ability to edit posts. I have found that mods can get a bit overzealous with that ability.

The policy on non-vendor links needs to be reviewed and specifically addressed and spelled out by VOA officers. If this thread has not already been brought to the attention of club officers, it needs to be. Possibly a public discussion on this topic is needed in a members only area of the forum?

Going after a mod on a personal level for something isn't what being a member is bout. That give me the worst sort of feeling.

We have to balance everything here and try to. It's not easy and not liked by some. But we are not here to be liked by anyone. We are tying to be fair and follow some degree of decorum. So lets go the other direction. Lets put this to a person who runs a company out of his garage selling parts to the community. He is not a paid sponsor or a vendor here. But he can post his wares with impunity to the membership because he is considered a "paid member in good standing". Lets say the same person has had poor customer service and is known for not performing to his customer's expectation. But he has no track record here. Or some don't know him since they just bought a second or third hand car and looking to mod it.

Is this the way you want the board run? I wouldn't. I want to know who I am dealing with. And I can PM someone if there is something i need to know more about. Lastly what if the product installed doesn't fit the model of car the person has? Can you use a part from the 94 RT-10 on a 2004 SRT? Even so far as a door actuator? I don't know off top of my head. But I bet I can find out fairly fast by calling one or two numbers. Or ask in a PM.

But bashing VG, City Plum or any mod isn't the best method of getting you point across. What is does is make folks less likely to consider your point of view.

If you want to add me to the list of un-favorites, then do so. I'm lucky. My world is in computers; Reboot, reformat, and install the software as needed.

[99RT10]

Going after a mod on a personal level for something isn't what being a member is bout. That give me the worst sort of feeling.
.

There should never be any personal bashing of any moderator. I have met two mods in person and consider them friends. I have great respect for WB and VG. The mods should be given the discretion, but when something like this comes up, it needs to be clarified and they should not take that call out as a personal attack. There should be a open, serious discussion if there was some over stepping. With what happened at the mOrgue, there is a hyper-sensitivity about dis-appearing threads/information. If I think something wrong was done, I will have no problem sending a rep comment or PM.

Again, there should never be any personal attacks on the people who dedicate their time for this site and this club.

[Steve M]

Am I missing something here? I didn't see anything I would consider to be a personal attack on a moderator...I did see someone questioning a policy and pointing out a similarity to another Viper forum, but that was about it.

I think there are good points on both sides here - there is always going to be a weird dynamic when it comes this this kinda stuff. You have a boatload of paid members, and a handful of paid vendors...whose money gets valued the most?

IMO, leave the links, and let the sponsors chime in as they see fit. If I see someone like Jon B has the right part for a similar price, I'll go with him every day of the week and twice on Sunday because I know he'll back it up with tech support should anything go wrong. He (and other vendors) have a great reputation, and I think pretty much everyone on this board knows that. Censoring links makes more sense on a site that is only supported by vendors, but this is a different animal, and should be treated accordingly.

[ACRucrazy]

Going after a mod on a personal level for something isn't what being a member is bout. That give me the worst sort of feeling.

We have to balance everything here and try to. It's not easy and not liked by some. But we are not here to be liked by anyone. We are tying to be fair and follow some degree of decorum. So lets go the other direction. Lets put this to a person who runs a company out of his garage selling parts to the community. He is not a paid sponsor or a vendor here. But he can post his wares with impunity to the membership because he is considered a "paid member in good standing". Lets say the same person has had poor customer service and is known for not performing to his customer's expectation. But he has no track record here. Or some don't know him since they just bought a second or third hand car and looking to mod it.

Is this the way you want the board run? I wouldn't. I want to know who I am dealing with. And I can PM someone if there is something i need to know more about. Lastly what if the product installed doesn't fit the model of car the person has? Can you use a part from the 94 RT-10 on a 2004 SRT? Even so far as a door actuator? I don't know off top of my head. But I bet I can find out fairly fast by calling one or two numbers. Or ask in a PM.

But bashing VG, City Plum or any mod isn't the best method of getting you point across. What is does is make folks less likely to consider your point of view.

If you want to add me to the list of un-favorites, then do so. I'm lucky. My world is in computers; Reboot, reformat, and install the software as needed.

Where is the bashing coming from? If anything the mods were ganging up on the OP for saying "And so it begins"

How do I want the board run? I want links to be shared. I want no restrictions on what information can be posted based on annual "sponsor" dues.

I get it.. it's a lot of money... what 35 or so "sponsors" paying $400 to $2500 per year to advertise on the forums... and another $525 to $4000 if they want to advertise in 4 issues of Viper quarterly. It's not about protecting the sponsors. It never has been on any site I've been on. It's about protecting the money coming in from those sponsors.

Money money money!

[Janni]

Ultimately - this should be about "community".

Our sponsors are part of the community. They are here day in and day out supporting Viper owners. And they do need to compete- both with each other, and with non-sponsoring vendors.

However, tacit promotion of non-supporting sponsors, by non-VOA members, isn't fair to the folks who dedicate so much time and effort to the community.

Google away - it's always your prerogative to go to the lowest cost source or use that as negotiation as City mentioned. Sponsors here are part of the community. We all feel comfortable they will service and support the membership.

I am sorry that there is disagreement in the policy - but if we're going to err, it should be on the side of being fair to the folks that contribute - either through membership or sponsorship - to the increasing value of the community.

As for the immediate jump to "you are just like that other club / site / group" - it's tiring. Threatening to leave because "we're just like that other site" is tiring too. There WILL be similarities - for pete's sake - we're a Viper site... but we've differentiated ourselves from "that other site" in the areas that matter - honesty, integrity and transparency.

[FrgMstr]

However, tacit promotion of non-supporting sponsors, by non-VOA members, isn't fair to the folks who dedicate so much time and effort to the community.

I am sorry that there is disagreement in the policy - but if we're going to err, it should be on the side of being fair to the folks that contribute - either through membership or sponsorship - to the increasing value of the community.

"Tacit promotion" - You are confusing this with open conversation and communication that is good for the VOA COMMUNITY.

What exactly does the "policy" state? Let's state that right here and now so we are all on the same page and know what is being enforced. How will that policy exactly be enforced?

The fact is that if VOA moderators "err," as you have pointed out happens, the VOA should fix this so it does not happen going forward. Continuing to make mistakes is very little console to those of us that feel as though those with the most money get to make the rules in this club.

Do not confuse censorship of paying community members with "increasing the value of the community." I would highly suggest that the community make up its own mind on this if leadership fails to be progressive on this issue. If you think a ebay and third party seller links are going to be the death knell of the advertising vendors here, you are mistaken. This only gives paying advertisers the opportunity to come in and demonstrate their worth to the community. Again, this is not just something I dreamt up, I have experienced exactly this in my current forum business in the last 15 years.

[Joel]

You know this whole discussion is starting to remind me of all the crap we went through last year. If all you folks who want to "save a dollar" are so bent on doing that just don't rejoin any club. Maybe Walmart will start selling Viper parts - made in China at the cheapest possible price. Is that what we want? I think if you want to circumvent the "don't do harm to sponsors" idea, just PM someone about a better deal. Lots of us sell parts to each other and I'm sure that costs some vendors business but that's a whole different message than saying you can get a better deal at "fill in the blank" parts place with the covert message that sponsors charge too much. Some of you may remember a vendor on the other site who rarely filled orders in a timely manner or provided good service. Folks were after the moderators to prevent him from selling his products or identifying him as a risky vendor - nothing was done. To my knowledge that person still takes advantage of unsuspecting owners - or at least his sweet time delivering parts after he has taken money first.

As a community of Viper owners we need to promote the good in our community and inform about the bad. Nothing on this site keeps any of us from doing that and private messages allow us to communicate anything we want about what we do with our money or to give advice. Just use a little common sense and stop looking for a conspiracy under every rock.

[ACRucrazy]

This has NOTHING to do with saving a dollar. It has everything to do with censorship and how it's being done. Some leaders just not getting it. I can't believe why this is so hard to understand. FrgMstr has spelled it out perfectly.

The members are telling you how they want the forum to be run. The PAYING members. Who were here first. Before sponsors. Who give money TO the sponsors. Without the members there would be no sponsors. Members come first, before anything else, even moderators and presidents.

[FrgMstr]

Another issue that is worthy of discussion, and should absolutely be part of this conversation, is Viper parts vendors masquerading as members. I have dealt with this exact issue as well with my business. When you cross the line from selling "extra" parts to becoming a part time or hobbyist seller, these members need to be held to a different rule set than a "normal" VOA member. On my forums, we address these part time or hobbyist sellers as forum members that are businesses. These part time vendors must be held to the same standard as a full time company as these members of our community are probably the biggest threat to legitimate Viper-centric vendors and advertisers. If the VOA wants to protect its advertisers, and it absolutely should, the VOA should not be worried about an ebay link here or there, it should be cracking down members running businesses out of their garage that directly impact paying advertisers. I know a few of you that these thoughts will not be popular with, but it is absolutely part of this issue.

[Chorps]

I'm sorry that the OP's thread is getting derailed but I think the concept of a community is so relevant discussion can take place.

I understand the motivation of the mods and vendors to want to funnel business towards the site supporters, but like the editing of the posts to remove information is a bad thing, pure and simple. Protectionist policies don't work, especially when they get divide the community.

If the VOA wants to be the 'go to' place for all things Viper, they need to be the compendium of knowledge that is built by the community, and that is inclusive of outside vendors. That way the community and site supporters can discuss the merits of the product/discussion/thread in an open and civil fashion.

The fact that *paying* community members are discussing this is a demonstration that they *aren't* cheapskates. Information needs to be disseminated in order to be valuable, and this site is built upon information (along with the bonds of friendship/ownership). There are a number of individuals who have left the other place because they wanted to have information become more open and the scars of that are still sensitive for *everyone*, but asking people to censor themselves or 'just don't rejoin any club' isn't really a community building solution.

I believe that transparency, openness and inclusiveness are the fundamentals of a great community. I hope the VOA embraces those concepts.

Although I'm always leery of mods editing posts, there should be a way of promoting a site sponsor who has a competitive product within a discussion. Perhaps a way of putting a link to a site sponsor/banner/autoad post as a followup after the original post? Kind of a hassle, but to me mod editing a post is really an extreme solution.

[AZTVR]

I'd like to add an analogy for the leadership. The folks that use this forum feel like they have entered a club house with multiple bar rooms where they talk to friends and people who like Vipers.

If that is what this really was, a real life in-person interaction, would it be reasonable to have a person standing by and say " You can't tell those people where to buy that part, because our sponsors put their advertising signs on the walls here. But, you can feel free to text the information to someone standing next to you, if they ask. Just don't speak it out loud so that it can be heard by everyone near you."

That is what folks here feel like is being done. I understand that the policy being discussed is being defended as reasonable, essentially by likening it to posting a handwritten ad up on the wall next to the vendor's sign. I totally agree that would be unfair; but, in a forum like this, that analogy is not what everyday people feel like what is being done here.

Personally, I do not care about this specific issue. I am a master googler and the existence or deletion of a link means nothing to me. But, for that reason, it is a waste of time also to delete it, and mainly serves to alienate members.

[Janni]

Just to be clear - a paying community member's post was NOT edited.

Additionally - yes- sponsors pay for advertising. If advertising and posting of links to competitive websites is free- where is the value to advertise / sponsor? If a forum user who likes Joe's Parts wants to go to the printers and insert a flyer into each Viper Quarterly with their pricing and specials - is that okay? As long as it doesn't increase the postage - anyone should have the same access to the membership as anyone else, right?

It's about providing value for the money they have paid. It's not 'all about the money' - as we could have more sponsors if we wanted and we don't take just anyone.

I think it's fair to continue to look at the policies and make adjustments where necessary - a things do "evolve" - esp online.

[ViperTony]

How about moving the posts that hijacked this thread into the Suggestion forum so this thread can get back on topic?

[FrgMstr]

Just to be clear - a paying community member's post was NOT edited.

That does not matter. A community member is a community member paying or not. Now if that member has been identified as abusing his posting privileges, it needs to be dealt with assuredly. Treating paid VOA members and posting Viper enthusiasts the same will benefit the VOA and Viper communities overall.

Additionally - yes- sponsors pay for advertising. If advertising and posting of links to competitive websites is free- where is the value to advertise / sponsor? If a forum user who likes Joe's Parts wants to go to the printers and insert a flyer into each Viper Quarterly with their pricing and specials - is that okay? As long as it doesn't increase the postage - anyone should have the same access to the membership as anyone else, right?

First your analogy is terribly flawed. This is NOT a VOA produced magazine, it is OUR community where WE the users produce the content.

Second, the VOA advertising vendor has the ability to become part of the community and act on posting of other prices and parts if he sees fit. And I would suggest that the advertising vendor has much more open ability to leverage this relationship. That is where the value is. If the advertising vendor is just putting up a banner and not interacting with the community as a marketing tool, then the vendor is losing out in that relationship. Being able to announce new products and take part of mod inquiries is a tool that needs to be utilized by the advertiser. Do you allow a non-advertising vendor to come in and do the same? No. But VOA seemingly does as there are part time/hobbyist sellers here that use the VOA forums as a selling tool. Which is worse in that situation? Someone posting an ebay link to a part number, or a VOA member selling new parts out of their garage? I would suggest latter there is much more of a threat to your paying advertisers.

Third, this is business in the internet age. Plopping a banner up and then never becoming involved is not worth what the vendor is paying if they do not use the forums as a selling and educational tool about their products. I made huge sums of money in the late 90s this way and I knew then that it was a business model that would not survive when it comes to very specialized product categories.

It's about providing value for the money they have paid. It's not 'all about the money' - as we could have more sponsors if we wanted and we don't take just anyone.

The true value in this for paying advertisers is a open and honest community that the vendor can openly interact with. When it is not an open community and honest community, then that undermines the value of any words posted by anybody or vendor. The value is NOT in censoring links by members having an open discussion. When this linking happens, it is an open opportunity for an advertising vendor to interact and prove his worth to the community. If the advertising vendor expects the VOA to delete links to non-advertising vendors, that is simply wrong.

I think it's fair to continue to look at the policies and make adjustments where necessary - a things do "evolve" - esp online.

I am not getting a feeling that this is being looked at quite frankly. I think some current policies/rules and ways here are detrimental to the overall Viper community and to VOA specifically. VOA needs to back up and look at the big picture, and not just a post at a time. Balancing the Viper enthusiast, VOA member, and advertising vendor relationship is not difficult, but it cannot be managed with knee jerk reaction policies. To make the forums better is something that not all will like on the front side, but it will be beneficial to all involved on the back side. But surely "traditional" ways of doing business to not extend to this format. To think it does is quite simply a mistake.


I have made my living by solely selling internet advertising since 2000. I run one of the largest forums in the world and the third largest computer hardware website in the world. Our forums rank 35th in the world measured by registered users. I have been through these growing pains. And while the subject matter that I deal with is vastly different, our entire business relies on the "enthusiast," exactly the same as it does here and my suggestions are fully applicable to VOA.

[Whitemamba]

I don't see what the harm is in providing non site sponsored links, especially if the site sponsors are more than willing to be on par if not even a better deal. Sometimes you are searching for parts/services late at night or on the weekends, or the site sponsor doesn't have everything listed either.

Personally I think the *more* information that is posted here is better than trying to maintain a barrier... *removing* information that is posted is just another source of needless aggravation, imo.

Well if you were a paying sponsor you might feel differently. The sponsors are paying their monthly sponsorship fees to advertise their products. Now just imagine if you were a sponsor and someone was advertising competitors offers, and these competitors were not paying the right to advertise. Would you feel that you needed to be a paying sponsor at that point? Let's just say that you were a car dealer and a paying sponsor and someone kept posting prices of a dealer that was selling cheaper. Would you feel that it was ok to post the other dealers information?

And all the OP needed to do was post the price and then ask others to PM him for the vendor in private. Case solved.

I for one understand fully why the sponsors would feel slighted. They pay for the right to advertise.

[TrackAire]

I can see both sides of this issue and the delicate situation of each at this point and time. As the website grows it will pull even more people from the other sites. Knowledge is the key to growth for all involved, forum members and vendors.

Here is some food for thought. If I was a Viper vendor and a sponsor of this website, the last thing I would want to see posted is some one saying "Just found a great deal on a Viper Widget, please PM me for details if interested".

I would want to know the links and would be cool with them posted on the forum. Without knowing who your competition is or how to counteract them, you're not going to grow your business. When potential customers start using PM's and private emails, you've lost your marketing edge and what you're paying for to be able to instantly chime in with product availability, advice, etc on the same thread.

If the link is posted on the thread, I, as a paying vendor could then chime in and say "We have that Viper Widget available for immediate shipping....we also have some install suggestions to make sure it goes smoothly since the part is rather fragile. Please feel free to contact us". Knowledge is power, knowledge is increased sales. Even if people are posting non forum sponsor links, the ability to know what they are buying and attempting to buy from is just as important as them calling you first....sometimes more so.

Cheers,
George

[Whitemamba]

I'd like to add an analogy for the leadership. The folks that use this forum feel like they have entered a club house with multiple bar rooms where they talk to friends and people who like Vipers.

If that is what this really was, a real life in-person interaction, would it be reasonable to have a person standing by and say " You can't tell those people where to buy that part, because our sponsors put their advertising signs on the walls here. But, you can feel free to text the information to someone standing next to you, if they ask. Just don't speak it out loud so that it can be heard by everyone near you."

That is what folks here feel like is being done. I understand that the policy being discussed is being defended as reasonable, essentially by likening it to posting a handwritten ad up on the wall next to the vendor's sign. I totally agree that would be unfair; but, in a forum like this, that analogy is not what everyday people feel like what is being done here.

Personally, I do not care about this specific issue. I am a master googler and the existence or deletion of a link means nothing to me. But, for that reason, it is a waste of time also to delete it, and mainly serves to alienate members.

I disagree completely. All you have to do is put yourself in one of the vendors shoes. Why even be a paying vendor if your competition gets the service for free?

I for one don't think that people should get the service if they don't pay for it. If it wasn't for the paying sponsors, we wouldn't have a website. If it wasn't for the paying members, we wouldn't have a website. Get where I am coming from?

If you were selling a product and paid to advertise that product, would you pay if people kept posting links to someone who might be selling that product cheaper? Of course you would not and to say you would would be lying. We all want something cheaper but then we expect loyalty and people to bend over backwards to help us. So if said vendor provides you with tons of advice, are you going to then turn around and buy the part from someone else who sells the part for a few dollars less? It appears that many will do that thus treating the vendor as though his time spent helping is worthless.

People need to put themselves in the sponsoring vendor's shoes and think about how they would feel. It is easy to talk crap and say how they would do this and that and how that information posted provides competition, well yes it does. It also will cause you to lose sponsors. The easiest way to put it is to put yourself as a car dealer selling cars. You pay a monthly sponsorship fee. Now let's suppose someone comes along and posts ads about a dealer selling the same car for thousands less below invoice just to move the car and clear out their inventory. How would you feel if you were that paying sponsor who was paying to advertise monthly? You would feel that your money was wasted because someone just came in and cut the legs out from under you.

All someone has to do is discuss that they found a particular vehicle for such and such price cheaper and to PM them for the information.

PS: Do you think Coke pays it's millions to advertise in a movie only to see Pepsi shown throughout the movie? The same goes for Gm paying to be in the Transformer movies only to have Dodge vehicles shown throughout?

[Whitemamba]

I can see both sides of this issue and the delicate situation of each at this point and time. As the website grows it will pull even more people from the other sites. Knowledge is the key to growth for all involved, forum members and vendors.

Here is some food for thought. If I was a Viper vendor and a sponsor of this website, the last thing I would want to see posted is some one saying "Just found a great deal on a Viper Widget, please PM me for details if interested".

I would want to know the links and would be cool with them posted on the forum. Without knowing who your competition is or how to counteract them, you're not going to grow your business. When potential customers start using PM's and private emails, you've lost your marketing edge and what you're paying for to be able to instantly chime in with product availability, advice, etc on the same thread.

If the link is posted on the thread, I, as a paying vendor could then chime in and say "We have that Viper Widget available for immediate shipping....we also have some install suggestions to make sure it goes smoothly since the part is rather fragile. Please feel free to contact us". Knowledge is power, knowledge is increased sales. Even if people are posting non forum sponsor links, the ability to know what they are buying and attempting to buy from is just as important as them calling you first....sometimes more so.

Cheers,
George

If I was a paying sponsor I would rather see that than having that non-paying sponsors links and goods advertised constantly. Let's just use another example here of a person who sells brake pads or wheels. The person who pays to advertise is cutting into his profit margin for every place he advertises. Do you think it is fair to that person to have someone go around posting links of a competitors wheels or brake pads just because they are cheaper? If you owned a restaurant and you paid to have billboards with your restaurants information on said billboard, would you think it was fair to have someone come along and place a big sticker on the billboard you paid to advertise on?

Let's just make another hypothetical comparison, let's suppose you were Borla and you were selling a catback exhaust for $1000 and were a paying vendor. Do you think it would be right for Corsa to come in and start posting ads even though they were not a sponsor? And then you might have a third vendor who was a retailer for both of the products come in and undersell both because he was just looking to get exposure for his company and was willing to take a small loss on said exhaust. Would that be fair to the paying vendor?

[Whitemamba]

You know this whole discussion is starting to remind me of all the crap we went through last year. If all you folks who want to "save a dollar" are so bent on doing that just don't rejoin any club. Maybe Walmart will start selling Viper parts - made in China at the cheapest possible price. Is that what we want? I think if you want to circumvent the "don't do harm to sponsors" idea, just PM someone about a better deal. Lots of us sell parts to each other and I'm sure that costs some vendors business but that's a whole different message than saying you can get a better deal at "fill in the blank" parts place with the covert message that sponsors charge too much. Some of you may remember a vendor on the other site who rarely filled orders in a timely manner or provided good service. Folks were after the moderators to prevent him from selling his products or identifying him as a risky vendor - nothing was done. To my knowledge that person still takes advantage of unsuspecting owners - or at least his sweet time delivering parts after he has taken money first.

As a community of Viper owners we need to promote the good in our community and inform about the bad. Nothing on this site keeps any of us from doing that and private messages allow us to communicate anything we want about what we do with our money or to give advice. Just use a little common sense and stop looking for a conspiracy under every rock.

Exactly Joel!