Just released off-road PCM for Gen V

[Steve M]

And yet the GM aftermarket thrives like no other. Seems like they have zero problem supporting racers.

They also have zero problems cranking out tens of thousands of Vettes and Camaros that share a similar architecture. With supply comes demand comes supply. Or something like that.

[Nine Ball]

They also have zero problems cranking out tens of thousands of Vettes and Camaros that share a similar architecture. With supply comes demand comes supply. Or something like that.

No, it is a culture difference. GM Performance Parts has always been supportive of innovation, and seeing what shops and tuners could push their products to the limits. They have been there to introduce customized/modified cars at SEMA, as well as a host of other big shows. They are also the primary sponsor of Hotrod Power Tour, going on this week. SRT/Dodge? Missing in action. Ford also does a good job of this.

[KB Viper]

custom tuning is a must for the gen V. the car is amazing as is but like most owners of high peformance vehicles, i want more!

[Steve M]

No, it is a culture difference. GM Performance Parts has always been supportive of innovation, and seeing what shops and tuners could push their products to the limits. They have been there to introduce customized/modified cars at SEMA, as well as a host of other big shows. They are also the primary sponsor of Hotrod Power Tour, going on this week. SRT/Dodge? Missing in action. Ford also does a good job of this.

I don't see GMPP or Ford offering "off road use only" PCMs for their cars like Mopar is trying to do here - mainly because they don't have to, but that's beside the point in question. Mopar is trying to do this all legal-like, and they've obviously hit a snag. Dodge could have addressed this by making the PCMs a bit more available/common/whatever - just reading through the Dodge/Mopar section on the HPTuners forum makes that pretty readily apparent. The issue here is that what used to be okay (like the Mopar PCM for the '08-'10 cars) now isn't, and I don't think anyone has all the info...at least not that posts on this board.

To me, it looks like they are at least trying to do something...it's just that they may have bit off a bit more than they can chew with an EPA that seems bent on clamping down on hot-rodding in general.

[FrgMstr]

I am not buying this "legality" argument...

[FLATOUT]

Steve M unfortunately there is no defending SRT when it comes to aftermarket support. They simply don't get it. We can make excuses for them all day but they're just that, excuses.

[05Commemorative]

We do have to be careful with statement when using the word "most" is it really is not a true statement. Most high performance vehicles actually are not modified, just a small percentage. That small % is a bigger number of units for GM and Ford and thus the market for them. Maybe among this group, the % is higher. couple simple facts to show otherwise is to look at the used market of Vipers, corvettes, AMG's, etc and you will find the vast majority are stock.

custom tuning is a must for the gen V. the car is amazing as is but like most owners of high peformance vehicles, i want more!

[Nine Ball]

I don't see GMPP or Ford offering "off road use only" PCMs for their cars like Mopar is trying to do here

Look harder. They even offer them with engine wiring harnesses, ready for plug-n-play. These can also be tuned, and they support the custom tuning community. I've been around the stuff for a long time, SRT doesn't hold a candle when it comes to aftermarket support (and enthusiasm).

http://www.summitracing.com/search/p...et-performance

Tony

[Steve M]

Look harder. They even offer them with engine wiring harnesses, ready for plug-n-play. These can also be tuned, and they support the custom tuning community. I've been around the stuff for a long time, SRT doesn't hold a candle when it comes to aftermarket support (and enthusiasm).

http://www.summitracing.com/search/p...et-performance

Tony

Correct me if I'm wrong, but those are for retrofits...don't those have different emissions requirements than a current model year car?

[FLATOUT]

Steve GM gets the code out to tuners before the new models even hit the streets. Nineball and I spend time with some of the fastest street cars in the state, UGR Lambos, GTR's, Supras, Vettes, Porsches, McLarens, Mustangs and Camaros. Sadly the Gen IV and V Viper platforms are a joke because everyone knows with out a massive stand alone ECU build that the new Vipers are handcuffed by Dodge to simple Bolton tweaks.

Road racing is another story but if your into mile, 1/2 mile, 1/4 mile, and roll racing you're shit out of luck.

[Steve M]

Steve GM gets the code out to tuners before the new models even hit the streets. Nineball and I spend time with some of the fastest street cars in the state, UGR Lambos, GTR's, Supras, Vettes, Porsches, McLarens, Mustangs and Camaros. Sadly the Gen IV and V Viper platforms are a joke because everyone knows with out a massive stand alone ECU build that the new Vipers are handcuffed by Dodge to simple Bolton tweaks.

Road racing is another story but if your into mile, 1/2 mile, 1/4 mile, and roll racing you're shit out of luck.

It was my understanding that they get the PCMs out to the tuners...it is up to them to reverse engineer the code. I was not aware of any company actually giving out their source code to third party tuners.

I'm really beating around the bush here at a bigger, much less popular question: is this the start of the EPA trying to clamp down on this sort of thing?

They know full well that these PCMs will be put in cars that will be operated on public roads, and that it will allow the end users to bypass federally mandated emission control devices. The GM PCMs that Tony referenced above have a loop hole big enough to drive a train through: they are intended for the retrofit crowd that are dropping LSx-based engines into everything under the sun, most of which aren't required to pass the emissions standards that are required of newer cars. This Mopar PCM is only intended for 2013+ Vipers, so Mopar can't use that loop hole. The Viper engine retrofit crowd is essentially non-existent, and I don't see that changing...I guess exclusivity does have its price.

Emissions standards are dictated at the federal level - it's the enforcement that is the primary issue. They can't force all states to require yearly emissions testing...it's too expensive to buy and maintain the equipment, let alone train people to use it. There are only a handful of counties here in Ohio that require regular testing, and thankfully I don't live in one of them. They can, however, levy fines on violators at all levels - they've gone after O2 simulators in the past, and I'm sure they'll continue to go after whatever other low hanging fruit comes their way. I'm guessing this half-rotted banana got their attention.

I'm just not sure this is entirely Dodge's/Mopar's fault - I've never navigated the EPA, so I don't know how the certification process works, but I don't get the impression that they are getting more lax with age. I'm just worried that this might be the start of some bigger movement to clamp down on stuff like this.

I'm definitely not trying to argue either way...I'm more just posing that question. I certainly don't have a dog in this fight...Dodge can fight their own battles with how to remain relevant in this market.

[KB Viper]

It was my understanding that they get the PCMs out to the tuners...it is up to them to reverse engineer the code. I was not aware of any company actually giving out their source code to third party tuners.

I'm really beating around the bush here at a bigger, much less popular question: is this the start of the EPA trying to clamp down on this sort of thing?

They know full well that these PCMs will be put in cars that will be operated on public roads, and that it will allow the end users to bypass federally mandated emission control devices. The GM PCMs that Tony referenced above have a loop hole big enough to drive a train through: they are intended for the retrofit crowd that are dropping LSx-based engines into everything under the sun, most of which aren't required to pass the emissions standards that are required of newer cars. This Mopar PCM is only intended for 2013+ Vipers, so Mopar can't use that loop hole. The Viper engine retrofit crowd is essentially non-existent, and I don't see that changing...I guess exclusivity does have its price.

Emissions standards are dictated at the federal level - it's the enforcement that is the primary issue. They can't force all states to require yearly emissions testing...it's too expensive to buy and maintain the equipment, let alone train people to use it. There are only a handful of counties here in Ohio that require regular testing, and thankfully I don't live in one of them. They can, however, levy fines on violators at all levels - they've gone after O2 simulators in the past, and I'm sure they'll continue to go after whatever other low hanging fruit comes their way. I'm guessing this half-rotted banana got their attention.

I'm just not sure this is entirely Dodge's/Mopar's fault - I've never navigated the EPA, so I don't know how the certification process works, but I don't get the impression that they are getting more lax with age. I'm just worried that this might be the start of some bigger movement to clamp down on stuff like this.

I'm definitely not trying to argue either way...I'm more just posing that question. I certainly don't have a dog in this fight...Dodge can fight their own battles with how to remain relevant in this market.

i honestly don't think it has anything to do with the EPA. it's internally within Chrysler, there is no way every other manufacturer has pcms that are easily cracked by third party tuners and only Chrysler has a untunable pcm because of the EPA.

[Nine Ball]

Chevrolet sent LT1 (C7 engine) crate engines, cylinder heads, and intake manifolds to several of the top 10 tuners in the country, about 3-4 months before the C7 came out. They also sent the computers and code to tuners. This was all done prior to the release of the car, so that consumers would have parts available to modify them, instantly. You can sit here and argue that Chrysler does stuff, but I disagree. I asked to purchase a pair of bare SRT head castings (Gen 5) so that a well-known head CNC porting company that wanted to play with them and maybe make parts for us, and SRT declined and seemed like they were offended that I "challenged" that there might be more to gain in the heads. Hey, I tried. The culture is much different, between the two companies.

[KB Viper]

even smart cars are getting "blown" and having fun at the drag strip....
i'd hate to get beat by that...

[Jack B]

When GM brought out the pontiac Solstice GXP (TURBO), it took the hardware hacks over two years to find the MAF umbrella that was limiting hp. I was one of those waiting in line.

i am with you GM may pre-inform the tuners, but, it is up to them to break the code.

It was my understanding that they get the PCMs out to the tuners...it is up to them to reverse engineer the code. I was not aware of any company actually giving out their source code to third party tuners.

I'm really beating around the bush here at a bigger, much less popular question: is this the start of the EPA trying to clamp down on this sort of thing?

They know full well that these PCMs will be put in cars that will be operated on public roads, and that it will allow the end users to bypass federally mandated emission control devices. The GM PCMs that Tony referenced above have a loop hole big enough to drive a train through: they are intended for the retrofit crowd that are dropping LSx-based engines into everything under the sun, most of which aren't required to pass the emissions standards that are required of newer cars. This Mopar PCM is only intended for 2013+ Vipers, so Mopar can't use that loop hole. The Viper engine retrofit crowd is essentially non-existent, and I don't see that changing...I guess exclusivity does have its price.

Emissions standards are dictated at the federal level - it's the enforcement that is the primary issue. They can't force all states to require yearly emissions testing...it's too expensive to buy and maintain the equipment, let alone train people to use it. There are only a handful of counties here in Ohio that require regular testing, and thankfully I don't live in one of them. They can, however, levy fines on violators at all levels - they've gone after O2 simulators in the past, and I'm sure they'll continue to go after whatever other low hanging fruit comes their way. I'm guessing this half-rotted banana got their attention.

I'm just not sure this is entirely Dodge's/Mopar's fault - I've never navigated the EPA, so I don't know how the certification process works, but I don't get the impression that they are getting more lax with age. I'm just worried that this might be the start of some bigger movement to clamp down on stuff like this.

I'm definitely not trying to argue either way...I'm more just posing that question. I certainly don't have a dog in this fight...Dodge can fight their own battles with how to remain relevant in this market.

[Whitemamba]

Chevrolet sent LT1 (C7 engine) crate engines, cylinder heads, and intake manifolds to several of the top 10 tuners in the country, about 3-4 months before the C7 came out. They also sent the computers and code to tuners. This was all done prior to the release of the car, so that consumers would have parts available to modify them, instantly. You can sit here and argue that Chrysler does stuff, but I disagree. I asked to purchase a pair of bare SRT head castings (Gen 5) so that a well-known head CNC porting company that wanted to play with them and maybe make parts for us, and SRT declined and seemed like they were offended that I "challenged" that there might be more to gain in the heads. Hey, I tried. The culture is much different, between the two companies.

GM knows that a big aftermarket will help ensure vehicle sales. Remember all of the posts on CF where everyone was seeing the power improvements from headers, etc? This was all before the car was even released for sale.

[KB Viper]

any updates

[mjorgensen]

any updates

Not yet, I was hoping for this week, but it is getting late...

[cashcorn]

any updates? what's up...

[mjorgensen]

any updates? what's up...

Legal language still holding things up, but I'm more comfortable it is narrowing down to the end now.

[KB Viper]

great news.

[cashcorn]

So now with the 707hp Hellcat out of the bag. Is the PCM on it's way?

[Voice of Reason]

So now with the 707hp Hellcat out of the bag. Is the PCM on it's way?

I'm sorry, PCM isn't available right now. Please leave your name and number after the tone and we will get right back to you after we are done giving 707 HP to our new Halo car.

Beep

[HANKFAN]

I'm sorry, PCM isn't available right now. Please leave your name and number after the tone and we will get right back to you after we are done giving 707 HP to our new Halo car.

Beep

[Whitemamba]

I'm sorry, PCM isn't available right now. Please leave your name and number after the tone and we will get right back to you after we are done giving 707 HP to our new Halo car.

Beep

Let's hope they meant in that segment because if the Challenger is the new Halo car, then there goes any chance of the Viper getting the attention it needs from Dodge/Chrysler. With the Viper as a halo car, they (Dodge) can put money into the program and "show" the things that are possible from a performance division. If the Viper doesn't get the extra money for R&D, then how can they expect to see Viper compete with other cars in its' class? It would be nice if Dodge did the same HP challenge to the Sports Car segment that the Challenger just laid down with the Muscle car segment.We can only hope!