Just released off-road PCM for Gen V

[mjorgensen]

People said the same thing about the Mopar PCM in the Gen 4 cars...Mr. Jorgensen indicated that this was merely a byproduct of the leaning out of the AFR, and not the result of changes to any tables affecting the pedal vs. throttle gain or opening rate.

What you noticed could have been very real, but not due to the reason we're thinking (adjustments to throttle response parameters).

Opening up the Tq. management parameters may in fact increase throttle sensitivity though on the G5?

[hova00]

I think I saw my PCM in the box. lol

Shouldn't be to much longer before I have it.

[Steve M]

Opening up the Tq. management parameters may in fact increase throttle sensitivity though on the G5?

That's the million dollar question. The two million dollar question is whether or not HPT can find the same portion of the code and make it available to the end user.

[mjorgensen]

That's the million dollar question. The two million dollar question is whether or not HPT can find the same portion of the code and make it available to the end user.

Really, you will give me $2M for that answer? :-)

So lets get this straight $3M right lol.

[Steve M]

Really, you will give me $2M for that answer? :-)

So lets get this straight $3M right lol.

Let's make that $3M Vietnamese Dong

[mjorgensen]

Let's make that $3M Vietnamese Dong

Well then I guess I'll keep the answer to myself lol.

[FrgMstr]

Let's make that $3M Vietnamese Dong

I make it a habit to never touch Vietnamese Dong.

[bluesrt]

It is not a Mopar part anymore, it is an Arrow Racing PCM and yes it is plug (at dealer for initial install) and PLAY! 25+ hp gain although we have seen more than that at the tire with some cars. Allows the most out of headers and exhaust total about 60rwhp.

great thankyou

[Jack B]

I have the answer, pay up.

1. The cars are now in the 10's, that means there is very little torque management.

2. Throttle response is a subjective issue, personally, I do not see an issue. The 10 sec runs also reinforce that comment.

3 I have dozens of logs and the only time I see torque management is on a hard launch at the drag strip, that is why almost all of the posted 60 ft times suck.

Let's make that $3M Vietnamese Dong

[Steve M]

But that wasn't the question...the question was whether or not the Arrow PCM had relaxed parameters that would allow increased throttle response without invoking limp mode. Mark suggested that those parameters were torque management related. I can disable torque management through HPT on my G4, but limp mode is still an issue when you mess with the tables that can affect throttle response. I want to know what else has an impact since we clearly don't have access to everything in the PCM through HPT...that's the insight I'm after.

Although subjective, many others including me think the throttle response ain't all that great since Dodge started using DBW throttle bodies on the Viper. It also isn't a WOT issue...it's a blipping issue when trying to execute a heel-toe downshift.

[EdwardETraylorIII]

There is nothing to be modified in the PCM that can "increase DBW throttle response time" AS A SETTING.

This is some sort of dreamed up parameter.

The way you increase throttle response is improve power and/or efficiency of the engine. The DBW controllers work as quickly as they are commanded. They respond as quickly as they can. I can't say this enough.

You want a quicker rev when you blip the throttle? Then get the car tuned to make more power. It is an appreciable difference once tuned!

Torque Management is a NO FACTOR if you have a proper tune and turn off Traction Control before a pass.

This is all factual and not debatable.

[FLATOUT]

I have the answer, pay up.

1. The cars are now in the 10's, that means there is very little torque management.

2. Throttle response is a subjective issue, personally, I do not see an issue. The 10 sec runs also reinforce that comment.

3 I have dozens of logs and the only time I see torque management is on a hard launch at the drag strip, that is why almost all of the posted 60 ft times suck.

My 60' sucked because the track wouldn't hold anymore without spinning not because the ECU was doing anything lol.

[Malu59RT]

There is nothing to be modified in the PCM that can "increase DBW throttle response time" AS A SETTING.

This is some sort of dreamed up parameter.

The way you increase throttle response is improve power and/or efficiency of the engine. The DBW controllers work as quickly as they are commanded. They respond as quickly as they can. I can't say this enough.

You want a quicker rev when you blip the throttle? Then get the car tuned to make more power. It is an appreciable difference once tuned!

Torque Management is a NO FACTOR if you have a proper tune and turn off Traction Control before a pass.

This is all factual and not debatable.

Ed, the 2008 Vipers had a very noticeable lag from when the throttle was depressed, and the car actually responded. I could stab the throttle and completely lift off, before the car accelerated. This was remedied with the Mopar PCM, and the 2009+ Vipers had a much smaller lag. There was a large discussion about that a few years ago. I assume since it was adjusted with the Mopar PCM, some may believe it can be adjusted in HPTuners.

[Steve M]

There is nothing to be modified in the PCM that can "increase DBW throttle response time" AS A SETTING.

This is some sort of dreamed up parameter.

The way you increase throttle response is improve power and/or efficiency of the engine. The DBW controllers work as quickly as they are commanded. They respond as quickly as they can. I can't say this enough.

You want a quicker rev when you blip the throttle? Then get the car tuned to make more power. It is an appreciable difference once tuned!

Torque Management is a NO FACTOR if you have a proper tune and turn off Traction Control before a pass.

This is all factual and not debatable.

Appreciable difference once tuned? I disagree 100% - the lag is still there.

The issue here is that throttle response is a totally subjective thing - what might be fine to one is totally unacceptable to another. My old LS1 Camaro with a 30-ish pound clutch/flywheel combo and a cable throttle body had instant throttle response...my Viper most definitely does not. Some of that is due to the heavy OEM clutch/flywheel setup on the Gen 4 cars...this has been addressed on the Gen 5s.

The closest thing I've ever seen to a number came from someone that apparently talked to an SRT engineer while trying out a Gen 5 at an event...thread here:

http://forums.viperclub.org/threads/...-Gen-V-at-VOI?

This is the 1st thing I asked about when I got in the yellow track pack car. I sat & blipped the throttle many times (Ryan teased me afterwards in fact for sitting there for 5 mins revving the car, lol) to compare to my Gen4. He explained that the delay has been halved from around 450ms to 250ms, and that with all the electronics and safety stuff they have to deal with there's no way to get it to be zero, but they made a concerted effort to improve this and they did. IMO on a gen4 the delay isn't that big of an issue, I know some guys talk like it's undriveable, I found that I complained a bit at first and then after just a bit of time in my gen4 that I didn't even think of it. In the gen5 I'm certain this "delay" is no issue. It felt great to me, everything about it, shifter is like an MGW equiped car, it had a real "tight" sense to the whole car and the throttle is part of that. So, if by fixed we mean a non-issue, than IMO it's defintiely fixed. If by fixed we mean zero delay, then no, there is a 250ms delay that my engineer with me said is the minimum they could achieve .. and IMO again, is a non-issue.

Hope that helps.

From everything I see, it is a very real thing. It's not as simple as an "increase DBW throttle response time" table/setting, but I'd bet there is something that affects the gain rate between the pedal and throttle.

This video also sums it up pretty well:

[Steve M]

Ed, the 2008 Vipers had a very noticeable lag from when the throttle was depressed, and the car actually responded. I could stab the throttle and completely lift off, before the car accelerated. This was remedied with the Mopar PCM, and the 2009+ Vipers had a much smaller lag. There was a large discussion about that a few years ago. I assume since it was adjusted with the Mopar PCM, some may believe it can be adjusted in HPTuners.

According to Mark Jorgensen, it was NOT adjusted in the Gen 4 Mopar PCM, but merely a byproduct of leaning out the AFR. The tables we have access to in HPT can indeed alter the response, but they invoke limp mode when adjusted to the point that I find the throttle response acceptable.

[slowhatch]

According to Mark Jorgensen, it was NOT adjusted in the Gen 4 Mopar PCM, but merely a byproduct of leaning out the AFR. The tables we have access to in HPT can indeed alter the response, but they invoke limp mode when adjusted to the point that I find the throttle response acceptable.

Yup. I have mine adjusted and if it passes below 50* I get limp mode on the top end from torque management.

[Jack B]

I have to agree with Edward . The throttle response on my G2 (10.9 et ) is no different than my tuned G5 (10.8 et).

Please PM me with your ph#.

I also believe we cannot compare the response between the G4 and G5.

Appreciable difference once tuned? I disagree 100% - the lag is still there.

The issue here is that throttle response is a totally subjective thing - what might be fine to one is totally unacceptable to another. My old LS1 Camaro with a 30-ish pound clutch/flywheel combo and a cable throttle body had instant throttle response...my Viper most definitely does not. Some of that is due to the heavy OEM clutch/flywheel setup on the Gen 4 cars...this has been addressed on the Gen 5s.

The closest thing I've ever seen to a number came from someone that apparently talked to an SRT engineer while trying out a Gen 5 at an event...thread here:

http://forums.viperclub.org/threads/...-Gen-V-at-VOI?



From everything I see, it is a very real thing. It's not as simple as an "increase DBW throttle response time" table/setting, but I'd bet there is something that affects the gain rate between the pedal and throttle.

This video also sums it up pretty well:

[mblgjr]

Coming from the Ford/SCT camp... within the SCT software there is a "throttle demand table" that effectively controls the dbw response. There's a limit to everything; but 3-5% changes are noticeable.

[Bruce H.]

Dick told me that the throttle response was no different on the tuned PCM, and it was done to optimize performance of the engine by controlling the rate of air entering the engine...or something to that effect. Bottom line was that it was a good thing for whatever reason.

- - - Updated - - -

Dick told me that the throttle response was no different on the tuned Gen V PCM, and it was done to optimize performance of the engine by controlling the rate of air entering the engine...or something to that effect. Bottom line was that it was a good thing for whatever reason.

[Bruce H.]

Dick told me that the throttle response was no different on the tuned Gen V PCM, and it was done to optimize performance of the engine by controlling the rate of air entering the engine...or something to that effect. Bottom line was that it was a good thing for whatever reason.

[TrackAire]

I think people here are talking about two different things regarding throttle response.

The big concern some have (my biggest issue with the Gen 4) is the dead zone of no response to throttle input when blipping the throttle from idle. It honestly feels like 1" of dead zone pedal travel (probably an exaggeration) but it is damn frustrating because of the instant throttle response all my other cars have.

On my car with exhaust, Mopar PCM and lightened clutch, once the revs have started, I have absolutely great throttle response to redline, no complaints.

First person that figures out how to get instantaneous throttle response off idle and not go into limp mode gets my money when it comes time for a custom tune.

[mblgjr]

I dont really feel like the 5 has a "dead band" in the pedal off idle so much as its not a 1:1 ratio. It feels like its just a little slower; say 96%. It runs behind just a little almost throughout the throttle curve.

Someone mentioned the latency earlier, stated in m.s. and that figure is VERY feelable vs having a direct cable.

[Steve M]

I think people here are talking about two different things regarding throttle response.

The big concern some have (my biggest issue with the Gen 4) is the dead zone of no response to throttle input when blipping the throttle from idle. It honestly feels like 1" of dead zone pedal travel (probably an exaggeration) but it is damn frustrating because of the instant throttle response all my other cars have.

On my car with exhaust, Mopar PCM and lightened clutch, once the revs have started, I have absolutely great throttle response to redline, no complaints.

First person that figures out how to get instantaneous throttle response off idle and not go into limp mode gets my money when it comes time for a custom tune.

Yes, this is exactly what I'm talking about. You can clearly see it in the RSI video, and also clearly see that they were able to fix it with a stand alone. What I have always been after is applying this same fix only with HPTuners, but we don't currently have that ability.

[Bruce H.]

The big concern some have (my biggest issue with the Gen 4) is the dead zone of no response to throttle input when blipping the throttle from idle. It honestly feels like 1" of dead zone pedal travel (probably an exaggeration) but it is damn frustrating because of the instant throttle response all my other cars have.

Okay, I find the same with the Gen V. On the track when I start to squeeze the gas pedal at the apex nothing happens until I get past that initial dead pedal travel. I deal with it by starting to squeeze on a little before the apex, or wherever I'm planning to apply power, so power actually starts coming on at the apex.

[TrackAire]

Okay, I find the same with the Gen V. On the track when I start to squeeze the gas pedal at the apex nothing happens until I get past that initial dead pedal travel. I deal with it by starting to squeeze on a little before the apex, or wherever I'm planning to apply power, so power actually starts coming on at the apex.

Yup, I try to do the same thing. If my Viper was my only track car or daily driver, I probably wouldn't notice it much at all since I'd get use to it. But I have at least one other track car and a bunch of daily drivers that do not do this (even my turbo diesel trucks are DBW and have "normal" off idle tip in) so every time I jump back into the Viper it is just that much more obvious, especially for heal toe shifting.

It just doesn't make sense, especially for those running the Mopar PCM since emissions is not an issue.