Just released off-road PCM for Gen V

[Vprbite]

Man I was 100% on board until I realized I couldn't pass inspection. In Austin we have to pass emissions...as I'm are is the same in Houston and DFW. Can the PCM be swapped back to stock easily once a year to get inspection completed and then swap back? Pain in the ass I know....

In Arizona (I would bet this exists in some other states too so take a look) if your car is INSURED as a collector car, which our cars fall into for rarity and such, it can then be registered that way and is emissions exempt. A local club friend of mine did that with his Lotus Exige and I have known others to do it since. First thing you need to do is get it insured as a collector car, they will notify the DMV, at that point you can become emissions exempt. It says so right on our Arizona Department of Environmental Quality website.

Look into it those of you who are holding back on the mopar computer for emissions reasons. As I understand it, you can't just ssap em out, go take emissions, the. Swap em back. It will read "not ready for test" or something to that equivalent untill a certain number of starts. More than you are gonna want to do every other year. It's not like, 5 starts or something. It's a decent number.

Good luck all!

[Steve M]

Look into it those of you who are holding back on the mopar computer for emissions reasons. As I understand it, you can't just ssap em out, go take emissions, the. Swap em back. It will read "not ready for test" or something to that equivalent untill a certain number of starts. More than you are gonna want to do every other year. It's not like, 5 starts or something. It's a decent number.

The readiness tests aren't looking for a number of starts - they are looking for a set of various driving conditions to be met while monitoring things like the EVAP system and catalytic converters. I don't know what a complete drive cycle is for a Viper, but a Viper powertrain engineer would likely be able to give us that info.

Here's an example:

================================================== =

Inspection/Maintenance (I/M) Complete System Set Procedure
Diagnostic Instructions
• Perform the Diagnostic System Check - Vehicle prior to using this diagnostic procedure.
• Review Strategy Based Diagnosis for an overview of the diagnostic approach.
• Diagnostic Procedure Instructions provide an overview of each diagnostic category.

Description
The purpose of the Inspection/Maintenance (I/M) complete system set procedure is to satisfy the enable criteria necessary to execute all of the I/M readiness diagnostics and complete the drive cycles for those particular diagnostics. When all I/M monitored diagnostic tests are completed, the I/M System Status indicators are set to YES. Perform the Inspection/Maintenance (I/M) Complete System Set Procedure if any I/M System Status indicators are set to NO.

I/M Data List
To determine if the I/M readiness diagnostic tests can be run this ignition cycle, use a scan tool to observe the I/M monitor enabled parameters in the I/M Data List.

Conditions for Meeting a Cold Start
• The ignition voltage between 11-18 volts.
• The barometric pressure (BARO) is more than 75 kPa.
• The start-up engine coolant temperature (ECT) is between 4-30°C (39-86°F).
• The start-up intake air temperature (IAT) is between 4-30°C (39-86°F).
• The difference between the IAT and the ECT is less than or equal to 6°C (10.8°F)
• The ambient air temperature is between 4-30°C (39-86°F).
• Fuel level is between 15-85 percent
• Without RPO LMG--The fuel alcohol content is less than 15 percent.
• With RPO LMG--The fuel alcohol content is less than 87 percent.

Circuit/System Verification
Review the Inspection/Maintenance (I/M) System Status indicators with a scan tool. All I/M System Status indicators should report YES.

Inspection/Maintenance (I/M) System Set Procedure
Important: Whenever the ignition is turned ON, ignition positive voltage is supplied to the heated oxygen sensor (HO2S) heaters. After verifying the enable criteria, turn OFF the ignition for approximately 5 minutes to allow the sensors to cool before continuing with the test. Once the engine is started, do NOT turn the engine OFF for the remaining portion of the set procedure.
1. Ensure that the vehicle meets the conditions for a cold start listed above.
⇒ If the evaporative emission (EVAP) I/M System Status indicator displays NO, perform the EVAP Service bay test if available.
⇒ If the EVAP Service bay test is NOT available, it may take up to 6 drive cycles, with up to 17 hours between drive cycles, for the EVAP I/M System Status indicator to transition to YES.
⇒ If the O2S Heater System Status indicator displays NO, ensure that the ignition has been turned OFF for at least 10 hours.
2. Set the vehicle parking brake and ensure the vehicle is in park for automatic transmission or neutral for manual transmission.
3. Turn OFF all accessories; HVAC system, other electrical loads, including aftermarket/add-on equipment, etc.
4. Start and idle the engine for at least 2 minutes and until 65°C (149°F) is achieved.
5. Run the engine for 6.5 minutes within the following conditions:
• MAF parameter between 4-30 g/s
• Engine speed steady between 1000-3000 RPM
6. Return the engine to idle for 1 minute.
7. Apply and hold brake pedal, and shift to Drive for automatic, or apply clutch pedal for manual and operate the vehicle within the following conditions for 2 minutes:
• Depress the accelerator pedal until TP Sensor angle is more than 2 percent.
• MAF signal between 15-30 g/s
• RPM steady between 1200-2000 RPM

Important: Do NOT touch the accelerator pedal during the idle period. A change in TP Sensor angle or an increase in engine speed may invalidate this portion of the test.

8. Release the accelerator pedal and shift the vehicle to Park for automatic, or Neutral and release clutch pedal for manual, and allow the engine to idle for 2 minutes.
9. Quickly depress the accelerator pedal until TP Sensor Angle is more than 8 percent and return to idle, repeat 3 times.
10. Allow engine to idle for at least 2 minutes.
11. Release the parking brake and drive vehicle at 24 km/h (15 mph) or slower for 2 minutes.
12. Continue to drive the vehicle for at least 5.5 miles between 45-112 km/h (28-70 mph) with the vehicle reaching at least 80 km/h (50 mph).
13. Release the accelerator pedal for at least 2 seconds. This will allow the vehicle to enter decel fuel cut-off.
14. Depress the accelerator pedal until the TP Sensor angle is increased 3-20 percent and maintain a safe speed for 1 minute.
15. Safely stop the vehicle, with the engine in drive for automatic or in neutral with the clutch pedal depressed and parking brake applied for manual, idle for 2 minutes.
16. Shift to Park for automatic and apply the parking brake, or neutral and release clutch pedal for manual.

Important: Do NOT disturb the vehicle or turn ON the ignition until told to do so. Disturbing the vehicle may invalidate this portion of the test.

17. Turn OFF the ignition and exit the vehicle. Do NOT disturb the vehicle for 45 minutes.
18. Observe the Inspection/Maintenance (I/M) System Status with a scan tool. All of the I/M System Status indicators should display YES.
⇒ If the EVAP I/M System Status indicator displays NO turn OFF the ignition for 17 hours, ensure that the vehicle meets the conditions for a cold start, and repeat steps 12-18 six more times, or until the EVAP I/M System Status indicator transitions to YES. If the indicator continues to display NO, refer to the Inspection/Maintenance (I/M) System DTC Table to identify the DTCs that did not run. Follow the Conditions for Running the DTC in order to set the EVAP I/M System Status indicator
⇒ If any of the I/M System Status indicators display NO, refer to the Inspection/Maintenance (I/M) System DTC Table for the indicator which did not display YES. The I/M System DTC Table identifies the DTCs associated with each I/M System Status Indicator. Follow the Conditions for Running the DTC in order to set the associated status indicator.

[Dman]

So looks like this emissions detail needs to be resolved before I can move on this then. I've been told the HPtuners tune should not be an issue, I know with my GT500 I passed an OBDII plug test no problem with SCT tunes by Lund loaded. But if the MOPAR PCM won't pass a plug in test, then I'd have to swap them back & forth, which is fine, as long as it's not visits back & forth to the dealer, etc.

I'll have to research that collector car thing in MD, under Czar O'Malley I'd bet that loophole either doesn't exist or has a special million dollar tax that has to be paid, lol.

[Malu59RT]

Man I was 100% on board until I realized I couldn't pass inspection. In Austin we have to pass emissions...as I'm are is the same in Houston and DFW. Can the PCM be swapped back to stock easily once a year to get inspection completed and then swap back? Pain in the ass I know....

We have 2000whp Lambo's with MoTeC ECU's passing the plug-in emissions test (OBD II) here in Dallas, and for the cars that can't, there are always ways around it. I'm sure that's the same in Austin, just dig around a bit

[mjorgensen]

So looks like this emissions detail needs to be resolved before I can move on this then. I've been told the HPtuners tune should not be an issue, I know with my GT500 I passed an OBDII plug test no problem with SCT tunes by Lund loaded. But if the MOPAR PCM won't pass a plug in test, then I'd have to swap them back & forth, which is fine, as long as it's not visits back & forth to the dealer, etc.

I'll have to research that collector car thing in MD, under Czar O'Malley I'd bet that loophole either doesn't exist or has a special million dollar tax that has to be paid, lol.

If you have Belangers and a cat back (no CEL even with stock PCM) you will be able to just swap the PCM back and forth, no dealer trips needed.

[FLATOUT]

If you have Belangers and a cat back (no CEL even with stock PCM) you will be able to just swap the PCM back and forth, no dealer trips needed.

Well that's nice Is this the way it was on the Gen IV Mark?

[mjorgensen]

Well that's nice Is this the way it was on the Gen IV Mark?

It seemed to be hit and miss with the G4, but the G5 has been pretty much trouble free.

[Granger73]

Really surprised they're calling it the sledgehammer.

http://blog.hemmings.com/index.php/2...oss-the-block/

[Dman]

If you have Belangers and a cat back (no CEL even with stock PCM) you will be able to just swap the PCM back and forth, no dealer trips needed.

That's a relief. As you say, on the gen4 the CEL was the double jeopardy thing, go to stock and you fail on a CEL, have it in and you fail, so this is great news on the gen5 and no other dealer trips, yay. Thanks!

[Coloviper]

Sorry but the emissions issue is a bigger deal in parts of this country than how some are so casually playing it off. Not believing it! When my new 06' Coupe with just an upgrade of Belanger full exhaust set-up could not pass the two year retest after multiple attempts, new cats, this, that, etc., there is no way any other long tube header set up with hi flow cats on a newer GEN is going to pass either. No way around it, no paying someone behind the door or under the table, nothing but a return to factory cats and factory manifolds set-up. At least that is the case in this county in Colorado and I have to believe it will be the same in many other parts of the US as well. Anyone that has been through this EPA anal ramming will attest it is beyond PITA. Not just swapping ECUs but then you have to drive them in various specific conditions for like 200 miles over a few weeks to relearn it enough to actually pass and who knows what these specific re-learn procedures really are? This is NOT just replug the old and then off to the testing station. It requires multiple cycles!

I am NOT agreeing with State and EPA in any way as the EPA are a set of a$$holes. In Colorado and I assume some other states, they changed programs to be much more strict as of January 2012. Then the state together with the EPA, changed the laws so vehicles are now capped on collector status at 1982 no longer the number of years old it is. Killed that ability for no more emissions tests and even at that you had to test into the collector status to start with so car had to start out as factory condition to test in. Wish there was a low annual mileage use, low volume car status that would except but that is not the case. Then they changed laws so even brand new vehicles bought out of state are now required for emissions test and you only get your 5 year new car exemption if you buy it in state.

Now just my view but why can't there just be a set up with two programs in there. One emissions favorable program unlocked with one key and the other unlimited off-road HellSnake program unlocked with another key. This way everyone wins and is hands free for each situation! I am sure those that need this would pay handsomely for it. I would! Again glad someone is putting the money into R&D and the end product will be awesome however for the vast majority of people that want the power but are stuck where they live, and the registration/emissions BS where they live, this still does not help their situation or quench their desire for more power as these current set-ups will simply not work for them.

Truthfully, I seriously want to pick up a new GEN V hopefully before the end of this year (even though something keeps telling me to hold out for 25th Anniversary model in 2017 which is a very long time away) if everything shapes up right on the business front it just might be possible, but look to be locked out of the big power options which would be very frustrating. With a little more work in R&D, can a basic ultra conservative program not be created which uses all the O2 sensors, etc. which would be very emissions friendly? Would not even care if that program produces 97rwhp and could barely turn the dyno rollers, as long as it passed easily?

Not in the know on everything but it is just a logical question, is it not?

[mjorgensen]

Sorry but the emissions issue is a bigger deal in parts of this country than how some are so casually playing it off. Not believing it! When my new 06' Coupe with just an upgrade of Belanger full exhaust set-up could not pass the two year retest after multiple attempts, new cats, this, that, etc., there is no way any other long tube header set up with hi flow cats on a newer GEN is going to pass either. No way around it, no paying someone behind the door or under the table, nothing but a return to factory cats and factory manifolds set-up. At least that is the case in this county in Colorado and I have to believe it will be the same in many other parts of the US as well. Anyone that has been through this EPA anal ramming will attest it is beyond PITA. Not just swapping ECUs but then you have to drive them in various specific conditions for like 200 miles over a few weeks to relearn it enough to actually pass and who knows what these specific re-learn procedures really are? This is NOT just replug the old and then off to the testing station. It requires multiple cycles!

I am NOT agreeing with State and EPA in any way as the EPA are a set of a$$holes. In Colorado and I assume some other states, they changed programs to be much more strict as of January 2012. Then the state together with the EPA, changed the laws so vehicles are now capped on collector status at 1982 no longer the number of years old it is. Killed that ability for no more emissions tests and even at that you had to test into the collector status to start with so car had to start out as factory condition to test in. Wish there was a low annual mileage use, low volume car status that would except but that is not the case. Then they changed laws so even brand new vehicles bought out of state are now required for emissions test and you only get your 5 year new car exemption if you buy it in state.

Now just my view but why can't there just be a set up with two programs in there. One emissions favorable program unlocked with one key and the other unlimited off-road HellSnake program unlocked with another key. This way everyone wins and is hands free for each situation! I am sure those that need this would pay handsomely for it. I would! Again glad someone is putting the money into R&D and the end product will be awesome however for the vast majority of people that want the power but are stuck where they live, and the registration/emissions BS where they live, this still does not help their situation or quench their desire for more power as these current set-ups will simply not work for them.

Truthfully, I seriously want to pick up a new GEN V hopefully before the end of this year (even though something keeps telling me to hold out for 25th Anniversary model in 2017 which is a very long time away) if everything shapes up right on the business front it just might be possible, but look to be locked out of the big power options which would be very frustrating. With a little more work in R&D, can a basic ultra conservative program not be created which uses all the O2 sensors, etc. which would be very emissions friendly? Would not even care if that program produces 97rwhp and could barely turn the dyno rollers, as long as it passed easily?

Not in the know on everything but it is just a logical question, is it not?

I understand your concerns and remember your pain with the 06'. You are correct that the stock PCM will need to be driven a few times well before any testing is done, but as long as it has no codes and all the sensors are ready and working it should pass. The basic programming for start and idle are unchanged so unless the cats are fouled I don't know why there would be an issue unless a visual exam trips you up.

It is an off-road controller and to that end it ignores the rear O2 signal, they will never program it to read and be active in this format. To do a program and have it certified would cost a fortune and at 1000 PCM sales would make the PCM WELL out of reach for the buyer.

Sorry

[Malu59RT]

Seems like to me that the factory high performance ECU that meets emissions regulations comes equipped in all 2013-2015 Vipers and makes 640-645hp. This is the response to those 2008-2010 owners that wanted the extra power that an offroad only Mopar PCM could provide. Thank you Dodge for giving me an extra 40hp over my 2008 Viper! For those waiting for even more power from a factory Viper, I assume the Gen VI Viper will be what you are waiting for

[Stealth]

California is very strict with emissions. Absent fraud, a Gen V without CARB Stickers/Etchings and Numbers on the added equipment and a different ECU is unlikely to pass. The Smog station does a visual for non-complying equipment and then scans the car's VIN and plugs the car in. The results go directly to the CA DMV and the operator receives either a pass or fail from the DMV while in the Smog shot. I.e., there is little discretion on the matter. Years ago I tried the "fist full of dollars" approach without results. I am sure other states are much more lenient.

[Jack B]

Ohio also has a "collectors" tag and that means no test.

In Arizona (I would bet this exists in some other states too so take a look) if your car is INSURED as a collector car, which our cars fall into for rarity and such, it can then be registered that way and is emissions exempt. A local club friend of mine did that with his Lotus Exige and I have known others to do it since. First thing you need to do is get it insured as a collector car, they will notify the DMV, at that point you can become emissions exempt. It says so right on our Arizona Department of Environmental Quality website.

Look into it those of you who are holding back on the mopar computer for emissions reasons. As I understand it, you can't just ssap em out, go take emissions, the. Swap em back. It will read "not ready for test" or something to that equivalent untill a certain number of starts. More than you are gonna want to do every other year. It's not like, 5 starts or something. It's a decent number.

Good luck all!

[Lawrenzo]

Really surprised they're calling it the sledgehammer.

http://blog.hemmings.com/index.php/2...oss-the-block/

But our hammer will have an extra 2 HP

[Nine Ball]

Sorry but the emissions issue is a bigger deal in parts of this country than how some are so casually playing it off.

This is your geographical problem, not a Viper problem. Certainly not a Viper aftermarket problem. Every state is different. You guys can legally grow and smoke weed in CO. If you consider that the Viper is already a tiny market, and those who modify them an even smaller market than that, think about how small the market is for Gen 5 owners in CO that want to modify cars is. I wouldn't expect any manufacturer to cater to such a small segment, their best interests are to focus on the broadest market possible. Some states unfortunately suck, and get left out of that. But, I choose to live in Texas, you choose to live in CO. Nobody forces me to stay here. Maybe buy a beach house somewhere and store the 900hp Viper there? haha.

[Jack B]

Cruel

this is your geographical problem, not a viper problem. Certainly not a viper aftermarket problem. Every state is different. You guys can legally grow and smoke weed in co. If you consider that the viper is already a tiny market, and those who modify them an even smaller market than that, think about how small the market is for gen 5 owners in co that want to modify cars is. I wouldn't expect any manufacturer to cater to such a small segment, their best interests are to focus on the broadest market possible. Some states unfortunately suck, and get left out of that. But, i choose to live in texas, you choose to live in co. Nobody forces me to stay here. Maybe buy a beach house somewhere and store the 900hp viper there? Haha.

[Coloviper]

Beach house in another state would solve it. Reality is though that willing to bet the number of Viper owners that have a requirement for emissions capable system to register their cars far exceeds number that don't have to worry about it. Thus if their goal is to sell a bunch of units or packages then it should be something they do seriously look at. It is not a new car from Dodge but aftermarket. Aftermarket parts apply for CARB certification all the time. Not sure this is any different. Belanger headers and hi flow cats are pure off-road so technically illegal in any emissions situation too.

Sucks, yes it does as I feel the whole EPA is a farce. It will try to take down America if it can. There is no reality to it. As far as the pot comments, never touched the stuff but seems to be a bigger problem or deal for others states. Nothing has really changed here for guys like me that have nothing to do with it.

[Camfab]

I've said this before and I honestly hate to admit this, the truth is that emission controls really do help our air quality. I grew up in the San Fernando Valley, basically just North of LA proper. As a kid, I shit you not, I couldn't see the mountain that was three miles North of our house. The sky was BROWN, all but a few winter days of the year after a good rain. Today virtually any day of the year you can see 20 miles across the valley with complete clarity and the sky is blue (imagine that). Granted, part of the clean up is the sad reality that CA has all but forced away it's industry, but I can honestly say the majority of the problem came from the millions of cars running through the basin.

Stand behind a stock Viper all day long that's running, you hardly notice anything. Pull the cats and do the same thing, your eyes are burning and you get a headache in short order. If you really think about it, all the power these cars make is the accidental by product of this emissions pressure. Cars got cleaner and more efficient. Efficiency is exactly what Hot Rodding is all about. Making more power out of a given package. Truth is, you could probably use HP tuners on that blower package and get a Gen V to run as clean as a stock Viper. Will someone try that, maybe, but I'm sure it can be done. If not now, sometime in the future. Anyway, like it's already been said, these guys aren't going to apply for CARB exemption. The fact that Paxton made a number of kits for the GEN I, II, and III CARB certified is a miracle IMHO.

[Nine Ball]

Beach house in another state would solve it. Reality is though that willing to bet the number of Viper owners that have a requirement for emissions capable system to register their cars far exceeds number that don't have to worry about it. Thus if their goal is to sell a bunch of units or packages then it should be something they do seriously look at. It is not a new car from Dodge but aftermarket. Aftermarket parts apply for CARB certification all the time. Not sure this is any different. Belanger headers and hi flow cats are pure off-road so technically illegal in any emissions situation too.

The reality, is that it is unrealistic to believe more than 640hp NA is going to pass emissions in a smog-nazi state. This isn't new information, nor is it specific to the Viper. I bolded the phrase above, because that statement rarely describes anything related to a Viper. Many of these products come about because of some underlying passion for the car, not as an attempt to cater to a massive market and get rich doing so. If it were purely about selling massive quantities, they'd be better off investing in Mustang/Camaro parts, maybe even Corvette parts. Have you seen what is involved in getting a CARB certified part? Have you seen the expenses related? I have. It isn't something to brush off, it is a large investment in time and money. At some point, these small scale Viper vendors have to weigh pursuing that cost, vs the return on the dollar. Even the Camaro/Mustang market barely justifies those costs. Think about that, vs how many Vipers get built/sold. I know you mentioned wanting a Gen 5 eventually, but the fact that you still have a Viper that is nearly 20 years old - that doesn't support your stance about companies wanting to support the Gen 5 market. If more of us bought one (or two) of these cars, the market would possibly open up some more.

[FLATOUT]

Headache and burning eyes in short order? Maybe just a tad over dramatic lol. I can say I have never experienced either with my catless Vipers.

I've said this before and I honestly hate to admit this, the truth is that emission controls really do help our air quality. I grew up in the San Fernando Valley, basically just North of LA proper. As a kid, I shit you not, I couldn't see the mountain that was three miles North of our house. The sky was BROWN, all but a few winter days of the year after a good rain. Today virtually any day of the year you can see 20 miles across the valley with complete clarity and the sky is blue (imagine that). Granted, part of the clean up is the sad reality that CA has all but forced away it's industry, but I can honestly say the majority of the problem came from the millions of cars running through the basin.

Stand behind a stock Viper all day long that's running, you hardly notice anything. Pull the cats and do the same thing, your eyes are burning and you get a headache in short order. If you really think about it, all the power these cars make is the accidental by product of this emissions pressure. Cars got cleaner and more efficient. Efficiency is exactly what Hot Rodding is all about. Making more power out of a given package. Truth is, you could probably use HP tuners on that blower package and get a Gen V to run as clean as a stock Viper. Will someone try that, maybe, but I'm sure it can be done. If not now, sometime in the future. Anyway, like it's already been said, these guys aren't going to apply for CARB exemption. The fact that Paxton made a number of kits for the GEN I, II, and III CARB certified is a miracle IMHO.

[Coloviper]

You can spin it anyway you want but it is still a requirement for many more than not. Yes it costs a lot to go through the CARB process but California is the largest Viper population by far so your point has less merit. We will just agree to disagree and leave it at that.

The comment on owning a 20 year old Viper is valid as it is not a new one. I wish it was, I really do. But like I said, some of you guys have too much money, resulting in a disjointed arrogance complex while living in a bubble. I bought a new 06' Coupe in 06' but hit some very serious health issues in 2012 forcing the sale of my paid for Viper due to mounting medical costs, family starting, unexpected job change, etc. In mid 2013, I traded a guy my 30 year owned and restored 1969 Mach I for his gentley used 96' RT/10 straight across because that is all I could afford and still stay with the brand. We are just digging out from all that now while started a new communications business to help supplement my career.

Personally, you can promote the brand with your illegal street racing and justify that all you want, it is your life. Your rather insensitive comments to my personal situation are just inappropriate. Having said that, not interested in talking about it further.

The reality, is that it is unrealistic to believe more than 640hp NA is going to pass emissions in a smog-nazi state. This isn't new information, nor is it specific to the Viper. I bolded the phrase above, because that statement rarely describes anything related to a Viper. Many of these products come about because of some underlying passion for the car, not as an attempt to cater to a massive market and get rich doing so. If it were purely about selling massive quantities, they'd be better off investing in Mustang/Camaro parts, maybe even Corvette parts. Have you seen what is involved in getting a CARB certified part? Have you seen the expenses related? I have. It isn't something to brush off, it is a large investment in time and money. At some point, these small scale Viper vendors have to weigh pursuing that cost, vs the return on the dollar. Even the Camaro/Mustang market barely justifies those costs. Think about that, vs how many Vipers get built/sold. I know you mentioned wanting a Gen 5 eventually, but the fact that you still have a Viper that is nearly 20 years old - that doesn't support your stance about companies wanting to support the Gen 5 market. If more of us bought one (or two) of these cars, the market would possibly open up some more.

[mjorgensen]

I've said this before and I honestly hate to admit this, the truth is that emission controls really do help our air quality. I grew up in the San Fernando Valley, basically just North of LA proper. As a kid, I shit you not, I couldn't see the mountain that was three miles North of our house. The sky was BROWN, all but a few winter days of the year after a good rain. Today virtually any day of the year you can see 20 miles across the valley with complete clarity and the sky is blue (imagine that). Granted, part of the clean up is the sad reality that CA has all but forced away it's industry, but I can honestly say the majority of the problem came from the millions of cars running through the basin.

Stand behind a stock Viper all day long that's running, you hardly notice anything. Pull the cats and do the same thing, your eyes are burning and you get a headache in short order. If you really think about it, all the power these cars make is the accidental by product of this emissions pressure. Cars got cleaner and more efficient. Efficiency is exactly what Hot Rodding is all about. Making more power out of a given package. Truth is, you could probably use HP tuners on that blower package and get a Gen V to run as clean as a stock Viper. Will someone try that, maybe, but I'm sure it can be done. If not now, sometime in the future. Anyway, like it's already been said, these guys aren't going to apply for CARB exemption. The fact that Paxton made a number of kits for the GEN I, II, and III CARB certified is a miracle IMHO.

Just an FYI the Gen3 system, as things got more strict, never did get a CARB number, we installed almost 200 of these on new cars over the years, but lost out on every car we sold to California buyers :-(

[Steve M]

You can spin it anyway you want but it is still a requirement for many more than not. Yes it costs a lot to go through the CARB process but California is the largest Viper population by far so your point has less merit. We will just agree to disagree and leave it at that.

The comment on owning a 20 year old Viper is valid as it is not a new one. I wish it was, I really do. But like I said, some of you guys have too much money, resulting in a disjointed arrogance complex while living in a bubble. I bought a new 06' Coupe in 06' but hit some very serious health issues in 2012 forcing the sale of my paid for Viper due to mounting medical costs, family starting, unexpected job change, etc. In mid 2013, I traded a guy my 30 year owned and restored 1969 Mach I for his gentley used 96' RT/10 straight across because that is all I could afford and still stay with the brand. We are just digging out from all that now while started a new communications business to help supplement my career.

Personally, you can promote the brand with your illegal street racing and justify that all you want, it is your life. Your rather insensitive comments to my personal situation are just inappropriate. Having said that, not interested in talking about it further.

I think his point was more "why do you care?" rather than "ha ha, you have a nearly 20 year old Viper". There are always tire kickers that will complain about everything even though they have no intent to buy a product, and that seems to be the case here. If California/Colorado emissions is a concern, and you want to do at least basic bolt-ons all the way through heads/cam, there's already a solution: HPTuners. Unfortunately, no one has tried forced induction yet with HPT, but it sounds like there might be some on-going projects that will give it a shot.

At this point, there are options for nearly everyone...the same couldn't be said at this same point in time last year.

[Nine Ball]

You can spin it anyway you want but it is still a requirement for many more than not. Yes it costs a lot to go through the CARB process but California is the largest Viper population by far so your point has less merit. We will just agree to disagree and leave it at that.

The comment on owning a 20 year old Viper is valid as it is not a new one. I wish it was, I really do. But like I said, some of you guys have too much money, resulting in a disjointed arrogance complex while living in a bubble. I bought a new 06' Coupe in 06' but hit some very serious health issues in 2012 forcing the sale of my paid for Viper due to mounting medical costs, family starting, unexpected job change, etc. In mid 2013, I traded a guy my 30 year owned and restored 1969 Mach I for his gentley used 96' RT/10 straight across because that is all I could afford and still stay with the brand. We are just digging out from all that now while started a new communications business to help supplement my career.

Personally, you can promote the brand with your illegal street racing and justify that all you want, it is your life. Your rather insensitive comments to my personal situation are just inappropriate. Having said that, not interested in talking about it further.

Never talked about your personal life, nor did I ask. You assume I have too much money and live in a bubble, when I run two companies and also have a normal job, while I am sitting here in poverty stricken Africa right now.

No, I just see you as one of those eternal critics of the Gen 5, when you have zero investment in this situation that you complain about. Spare the personal jabs, I grew up broke and shrug off the haters.