Peoples Republic of Viper

[GTS Dean]

When Chrysler/Daimler/??Capital/Fiat/Stellantis decide to fold their cards, who is going to work on these cars? It's already happening. Where will the knowledge base be for OE suppliers and practical DIY service? As we know right now, it won't all be found in the service manuals, or unreadable CDs. If you cut the knowledge lifeline, you kill the club and the ability to maintain the car.

[13COBRA]

The loan was a best guess and anything above $200K required a personal guarantee of repayment from someone - who was going to sign that dotted line? We were negotiating well into 2022 with our vendors to get the debt under control. Some of the vendors had not sent us a bill in over a year for services rendered. Cash accounting does not map cash to potential bills only to the bills in front of you. The final debt was -$250K! Alex, mostly, negotiated the debt with one of our vendors and we ended up with a -$176k! loss for 2021.

So, NO we did not know the $$$ as we were still getting bills. Spending a lot of time working on those bills, making phone calls, pissing people off (surprising I know) getting our bills and finances under control and out of the cash accounting method being used with the finance team. Limits had to be set. Everything had to be briefed to the BOD. From January 2022 until April 2022 we had weekly meeting to discuss every aspect of club finances, operations, and the future of the club. Those meeting averaged 3 hours each! From March until December 2022 we averaged two meetings a month and finally for BoD meeting got under 1.5 hours.

There were many opinions, some louder then others. However, one opinion does not make for a vote of the majority with a BoD consisting of 39 voting members (some presidents dual hatted but only had one vote). Who do you think put together the databases, charts, and briefs for those three hour meetings? Yes, there were bandwidth issues as an unpaid volunteer. For the finance team: one team member just stepped into an executive position demanding more hours at work; another team member was in the middle of tax season with the firm they owned; I just retired from the military and getting settled into a new job. So yes, bandwidth issues for the volunteers who need to also get some sleep so they could be functional the next morning while getting materials researched, developed, and put together for weekly briefs. I know my Viper projects (MEDUSA Project specifically - Thanks HAWK for the ACR-E cut-outs) and Viper drive time was non-existent in 2022 because of all the work the team was doing to save the club.

So, yes there was NOBODY volunteering to take on another duty/project as we were all focused on having a club beyond 2022. And for all that hard work that the BoD did we now have in excess of $100K extra in the bank to ensure the club can pay its bills and could pay off the majority of the loan if it so chooses. But we are looking at 3-5 years, without a funding drive, to pay off the loan at this moment keeping the $100K in cash reserves and drawing more interest then the loan debits. Once that is done we will look at what more should be done with membership dues and regional distributions - again for the BoD to be briefed and for them to agree to based on what membership wants.

If you don't like the direction of the club then please stand-up!

My position becomes available 1 January 2024 and we are taking applications now until October 2023 for vote for that happens in November 2023 for the new National officers.

So if I understand correctly, the club negotiated down their debt from $250k to $176k, at that time they took out a loan for $176k to pay for it? Am I reading that correctly?

If so, at the point where the number was realized to be $176k, that is when they should have reached out to membership.

I don't have the desire to be President of the VOA, nor the time. I do hope you either turn the ship around, or someone gets in that can. Currently it appears we're on a path for self destruction.

Who is running the Club? For 2022 there were not very many applications for those positions. If you don't like it, please provide your application and do something about it.

You and Mike are running the club, that's fairly obvious. I've been on 7 different boards in various positions. Yes, there are some BoDs that are invested and willing to do the work to be helpful to the association...but there are a lot that will just follow the direction of the current sitting officers. So, you and Mike run the club.

Of course there wasn't a plethora of applicants to serve... At the time applications were open, this association was a dumpster fire. We've lost a lot of great people in the last 2 years, several that were regional presidents and served on the board. I would never name names, but I've spoken with several about why they got out and the common denominator was the lack of listening by leadership. Take that as you may.

[ViperSRT]

Sorry, I was not on the BoD in 2021!

Many of the President changed over these last few years, so they were also not on the BoD.
Using "many" instead of a number indicates the willingness to exaggerate. Instead it would be better to state how many of the regional Presidents who were active in the BoD have remained. My guess is most.

Yes, some of the BoD is the same.
3 of 4 is a bit more than "some"

My joining the BoD was unique as a result of the current situation - I was never a member of the VOA BoD - club was in trouble and I stepped up to help.
You should be congratulated for that. But not given permission to dis all those who didn't volunteer.

Every BoD member that continued past 2021 could have left, what did they get for staying? They do not draw a salary, they do not even get a free cup of coffee.
That is true for all volunteer organizations. Most don't feel the need to toot their horn and dis regular members.

So, what is your point?
I feel bad for you if you don't yet know the point. That the BoD is trying to eliminate the involvement of enthusiasts (most of whom are owners, and not just purely enthusiasts) on the forum and that some of us are not happy with that direction is still not acknowledged by you. You even bring up statements like the 501c by law prevents having a forum with non member participants is laughable. There is no serious argument against enthusiasts inclusion in the forum except for one: The BoD does not want potential for negative commentary. The next move will be the ouster of members that provide negative feedback. Then you will have the utopia - the few remaining members will all be in lock step with zero discourse.

If everyone of them left, who is running their region? Who is running the Club? Their region believes they are doing a good enough job to remain a regional president and as a result they are a member on the BoD.
Open can of worms. My experience in one of the largest regions (MCVO) is not so positive. The collusion and downright cheating that returned a past President (quit for just long enough to return and bypass the term limit and then collude to avoid competition) fits the definition of cronyism, yet you would call it exemplary.

The regions chose their presidents and those presidents serve on the BoD. In return, the regional presidents choose the National Leadership to serve for two years. For 2022 there were not very many applications for those positions.

If you don't like it, please provide your application and do something about it.
Then the same line that members should not voice their opinion unless they seek a leadership position.

Based on the path described by you I do not see a future in this club for me. THAT IS THE POINT!

[AZTVR]

This forum really represents the active Viper Community. It is much more than just a knowledge base.

I think that the Facebook groups best represent the active Viper Community now, much more than the 2 Viper club forums. However, the Facebook groups really have no usable historical knowlege base. Closing out the historical knowlege base here; but, keeping the content visible, plus excluding technical comments from Enthusiasts from being allowed on the club forum will drive all of that technical talk, and prospective owner talk to the Facebook groups.

If enthusiasts want a forum like the Corvette forum and others, then someone needs to create one since they are reportedly a trivial cost and investment in time as stated here. It isn't something that I would invest my time to do.

[GTS Dean]

Aside from CURRENT greater reach, the Facebook platform is not something I prefer *AT ALL* to the traditional BBS Forums. Threads live and die, almost never to be found again.

[AZTVR]

Aside from CURRENT greater reach, the Facebook platform is not something I prefer *AT ALL* to the traditional BBS Forums. Threads live and die, almost never to be found again.

I totally agree that it is a very inferior product to what this forum used to serve as.

[quickster2]

Wow, another passionate thread.

My understanding is that there will be link on the new website to the "old" forum. The knowledge base is not going away. The Members only direction is being driven, in part, by the almost daily spammers that are trying to infiltrate the website which requires volunteer Moderator time to mitigate.

I think we need to give the current Management some space here. There is a level of transparency, fiscal responsibility, and leadership that was lacking previously.

[GTS Dean]

I consider this to be more of a technical forum, rather than a primary social forum. But it has always represented both groups. I don't have a single Subscription to a social thread here.

Quickster - thank you for partially addressing a question I posed on the other thread.

[13COBRA]

Wow, another passionate thread.

My understanding is that there will be link on the new website to the "old" forum. The knowledge base is not going away. The Members only direction is being driven, in part, by the almost daily spammers that are trying to infiltrate the website which requires volunteer Moderator time to mitigate.

I think we need to give the current Management some space here. There is a level of transparency, fiscal responsibility, and leadership that was lacking previously.

First sentence...borderline demeaning, but hey, who cares.

I'm looking forward to seeing what Mike, Wes and the BoD come up with.

[Patentlaw]

Here is my FIRST POST AND THREAD ON THIS WEBSITE some 10 years ago. Something I was really concerned about. First DAMN POST. FIRST ONE.

https://driveviper.com/forums/thread...4010#post14010

Same crap.........taking someone who has contributed hard work, and then taking advantage of it. Not just me, but hundreds of others.

This only happens here.

[ViperSRT]

Patentlaw you were a fortune teller for sure. It took 10 years for the BoD to fully replicate bad actions from the VCA that you were concerned about. But here we are. The only question is which of these members of the BoD initiated this bonehead move to cancel enthusiasts from the new forum???

Title Name
VOA National President Michael Kuchavik
VOA National Vice President Wesley Frasard
VOA National Secretary Ed Massena
VOA National Treasurer Joseph Boscia
VOA Website Director Shannon Whitehead
VOA Social Media Director Kala Rexroad
VOA Forums Director Scott Grayson
VOA Regional Development Director Michael Sutton
VQ Editor Maurice Liang
VOA National Deputy Treasurer Matthew Altomare

[13COBRA]

Let's not call names.

[13COBRA]

Here is my FIRST POST AND THREAD ON THIS WEBSITE some 10 years ago. Something I was really concerned about. First DAMN POST. FIRST ONE.

https://driveviper.com/forums/thread...4010#post14010

Same crap.........taking someone who has contributed hard work, and then taking advantage of it. Not just me, but hundreds of others.

This only happens here.

Wow. That aged well. lol

[J TNT]

Here is my FIRST POST AND THREAD ON THIS WEBSITE some 10 years ago. Something I was really concerned about. First DAMN POST. FIRST ONE.

https://driveviper.com/forums/thread...4010#post14010

Same crap.........taking someone who has contributed hard work, and then taking advantage of it. Not just me, but hundreds of others.

This only happens here.

I had the same concerns then and now. And Yes lots of work being done at National level, but let’s not forget some of us have put in lots of work at the Regional level for over 20 years.
As JonB mentioned hopefully History doesn’t repeat itself.

[GTS Dean]

Bobby - you're a freaking psychic!!!!

[Bruce H.]

Thanks to all who care enough to push for improvement. I do hope the VOA will find its footing and realize its potential.

[RedTanRT/10]

Nick,

thanks for starting this thread!!! I had no idea of the upcoming changes to this site. Sorry to read everything, hopefully these changes are not set in stone!!

Terrible idea for members only posting. I've been a member of one or the other since '96 and to me it's more of supporting the local club, AZ, then SoCal as well as the website. If people don't want to join, it doesn't bother me.

This (VOA) is a great resource for Viper owners, whether finding old threads or asking current questions. The VCA is a research tool only, the user knowledge base is very limited, so I try to help them and I do see GTS Dean with helpful posts too. Facebook is really poor for most needs and resembles high school or very polarized politics, so hard to follow so the only area of FB I look at is the Marketplace.


I don't have a solution but I will say the blocking of non-member posting is very asinine and I truly hope its not implemented!!!

[Viper Girl]

We're working on something that hopefully will make everyone happy.

[Steve M]

I still don't understand why the current forum will go into a static archive status when the switch over occurs.

It's bad enough that this forum isn't searchable through Google...I can't imagine what's about to happen fixing that.

I know of at least two other forums, one of which has 100x (or more) traffic than this one does, that went through a full refresh of their software a few years ago, yet were able to maintain all historical data while updating the forum's features.

[Viper Girl]

I still don't understand why the current forum will go into a static archive status when the switch over occurs.

I’m currently working on a way forward so this forum stays open and continues for everyone. Anyone want to join me and help moderate this site?

[braunstein82]

A few things I would like to say, I no particular order and my verbage may not be correct. I typing this as I work quickly.
I am on the board now since 2021 and we meet 2+ times a month. Usually around 25 BOD members attend each. I can say everything and every decision has been discussed multiple times before voting on it. We have voted on everything. I didnt get what I thought was best a few times. I say this because you all act like it's just the top 4 but it's not. The 30+ board members have made a lot of changes and found better cost options for almost everything. We are looking great with this direction. Hate it if you will but otherwise it would all already be gone. A lot of these people complaining are late to the game with topics that have been discussed to death and have already been addressed. Magazine cost cut in half, website cost will go down by 75%, insurance, etc. This debt was created before new roles of leadership. Prior to the new president there were very few meetings and voting. Maybe he should have stepped up prior and addressed these issues. Looks like couldn't or he didn't, why, who knows, maybe he just took the lead of the previous president. But he is stepping up now. If the new/current roles didn't happen then this thread wouldnt even be possible, club would have already went bankrupt. These guys took the roles and no one else did. I get it, say your issue, what you think a resolve is and then move on. Keep complaining and then they may quit, I would have at this point if I were one of the top 4, who is gonna do it then? Noone. You should be mad at the majority of the 30+ BOD they made the calls. Even some I didn't agree with. But it was majority vote and everyone of them are doing what they can to keep the club alive.
This old site is on several different host or servers (6 I think), expensive ones and we are paying for each when it should only take one. The new site developer couldnt even get access enough to switch everything over to the new one without 1000s of hours of work. It is costing us something like 10x what the new site will. I hate locking this site out, but we have no choice without a whole experienced coding team converting everything to adapt to the new site. It would cost waaay more than the club could ever afford with the state it's in. We won't be positive and will not get this stupid loan gone without saving this money. Not saying I agree with all the decisions on how the new site will be done but a live vote was taken and majority chose this. If you want to know how many presidents changed from when this start until now. Look in the back of your 1st quarter 2021 magazine and then the most recent one. There have been a lot of them that changed.

Jus to add. They cut a lot out of the membership packet to save money and a lot of people are complaining about that. Just like if they didn't cut stuff out. Same goes for the mag. The majority of MEMBERSHIP voted to keep it. So they did but also cut the cost in half, sounds like a win win. I get a lot bailed and wanted to see the path. Renewals are up so looks like many are seeing the positive path and wanting to start helping to keep it alive. This constant complaining and name calling is probably why the majority voted to only give enthusiast read only privileges. One of the other options was to not give them any access to the forum. So obviously they wanted to keep you informed at least, or let you see the value of supporting the club. There is a cheaper option for no hard print mag, if you one of those who don't want it. Is this the best route, I don't know. But from what I can see, it almost the only route to save the club. So either respectfully help, calmly wait an see or if you have no faith and not willing to take a position, why are you even saying anything.

[13COBRA]

I’m currently working on a way forward so this forum stays open and continues for everyone. Anyone want to join me and help moderate this site?

Gladly.

. The majority of MEMBERSHIP voted to keep it.

Uhm...as of yesterday when I spoke to Wes on the phone for 48 minutes, there has been no membership survey sent out about the magazine, and he said they were going to do one as soon as they had a membership director.

So, how exactly did you come up with most of the membership wants a magazine?

[braunstein82]

Gladly.



Uhm...as of yesterday when I spoke to Wes on the phone for 48 minutes, there has been no membership survey sent out about the magazine, and he said they were going to do one as soon as they had a membership director.

So, how exactly did you come up with most of the membership wants a magazine?

You may be correct about the poll, my mistake. I polled my region and I think that's where I got mixed up. I know others said they polled their regions as well. We as officers did discuss and vote regarding the magazine. I believe now for extra cost of the mamba members absorbs most of the cost of the magazine. So I don't think that's a large financial issue anymore. Mamba memberships went up, and is the majority of members, went we switched to digital option, so that is a key indicator that most want the magazine. Like I said thou, with the cost getting cut in half and mamba cover a large portion of the cost, there isn't much to argue. How many would we lose with no magazine. Then people will complain about what they are getting for $150. Not gonna please everyone. Every decision was put to a vote by the 30+ board members. If national leaders are getting called out, then so should all the regions presidents. Maybe those complaining should ask their regional president about the meetings and how they voted. I passed meeting info along to several members. Doesnt seem to get anywhere, they don't want to step up and complain if it doesn't get done they way they think is best. Thats not how democracy works. I have attended most of the meetings and every decision and change was voted on by the board, several I even didn't agree with. So let's stop complaining, let those who did step up do what they can, and enjoy the club and cars while we see if they save it.

[quickster2]

That's not how democracy works. I have attended most of the meetings and every decision and change was voted on by the board, several I even didn't agree with. So let's stop complaining, let those who did step up do what they can, and enjoy the club and cars while we see if they save it.

Reminder to all, this is a volunteer club. It takes volunteers to run and manage it. There is an easy path to be part of the solution..........a membership for those with a car or a Legacy membership for previous owners and those in-between cars. I'm just grateful there is a path forward for the Club. I don't have to be in my own echo chamber to see the benefit of moving forward and supporting the marque. Give your input to the Region's Leadership and keep moving forward.

[13COBRA]

You may be correct about the poll, my mistake. I polled my region and I think that's where I got mixed up. I know others said they polled their regions as well. We as officers did discuss and vote regarding the magazine. I believe now for extra cost of the mamba members absorbs most of the cost of the magazine. So I don't think that's a large financial issue anymore. Mamba memberships went up, and is the majority of members, went we switched to digital option, so that is a key indicator that most want the magazine. Like I said thou, with the cost getting cut in half and mamba cover a large portion of the cost, there isn't much to argue. How many would we lose with no magazine. Then people will complain about what they are getting for $150. Not gonna please everyone. Every decision was put to a vote by the 30+ board members. If national leaders are getting called out, then so should all the regions presidents. Maybe those complaining should ask their regional president about the meetings and how they voted. I passed meeting info along to several members. Doesnt seem to get anywhere, they don't want to step up and complain if it doesn't get done they way they think is best. Thats not how democracy works. I have attended most of the meetings and every decision and change was voted on by the board, several I even didn't agree with. So let's stop complaining, let those who did step up do what they can, and enjoy the club and cars while we see if they save it.

There's a difference between complaining and questioning. If you can't see the difference, you made up your mind before even reading a post in here.