Peoples Republic of Viper

[13COBRA]

Over the last few months I've voiced several concerns and posed multiple questions; so far all I've gotten back was a Nothing Burger. I was a Mamba member, and didn't renew because I thought the VOA was adopting old VCA policies and plans. I've asked for clarification because I think this forum is incredibly important. With 30k Vipers built over a 25 year span, the knowledge that is currently on this forum will disappear.

I posed a couple of questions this week in different threads and they've gone unanswered. I know for a fact that they were read by the intended audiences, as the forum showed their usernames as actively browsing that thread. I think there are more people than just me who share in my concerns.

I'm a 32 year business owner, car enthusiast, that wants the Viper nameplate to be kept as it is for the next 50+ years. My biggest concern is losing the forum and the ability to reach owners and allow them to converse about issues, problems, stories, etc. When that stops, the club is dead in my opinion.

1. When the new website goes live, will all of the current forum moderators be removed? And if so, who will moderate the forums?

I've heard and read that all the current moderators will be removed and lose their moderator privilege's. If that's true, who is going to moderate? If the answer is the officers....that's a bad answer. Officers of any association shouldn't be the judge, prosecutor and jury in any aspect. You lose all checks and balances. Stretching a little...but it would be similar to content and information sharing in the People's Republic of China, North Korea, Russia, etc. An example of this comes to mind... the thread that disappeared a few months ago that had a ton of members upset about the direction of the VOA. Does an officer want to be questioned or had questions raised on their thought process...no, probably not, BUT it's their duty to the members to answer those questions and be able to rationally explain the thought process that went into making the decisions.

1. When the new website goes live, will Enthusiast members still be able to post, or will they only be able to read what has been posted?

Most of the traffic on this site as it sits now are Enthusiasts. Most of the new content posting are from Enthusiasts. Losing their opinion, information, and other additions to the site would be detrimental for future generations of Viper owners. If this is the case, and the thought process behind it is that the Enthusiasts will become paying members to remain able to post, I would put a sizeable wager that it won't happen and they will take their membership to one of the other Viper forums.

1. When the new website goes live, will ALL of the threads currently hosted on this site go into the archives and be read-only?

If that's the case, why? Wouldn't the Viper owners of the world be better off if say all threads that have had no activity in 6 months or a year be archived while the balance of those are still active? Wouldn't that help in keeping relevant information flowing? -The purpose of this forum.

1. What problems or areas of improvement on the current site are going to get addressed on the new site?

All I've seen explained is; it's going to be better. Better? Can we get some clarification on that. Losing the classified section is already a bummer. For the life of me I can't figure out why we spent the money and time to get a new website. Wasn't it originally supposed to launch October 1st? I get sometimes deadlines are unobtainable...but recently between the website and magazine shipping...there have been plenty of examples of past or very STRETCHED deadlines. We can do better, we need to do better.

1. What is the VOAs position on trying to recover the regions/countries that have left the association?

Ontario and our friends from England have left the VOA and are no longer recognized as association members. What is the VOA doing to try and regain their membership?

I would truly like answers to these questions, and I think there are a lot of members and past members that feel the same. I also don't want to come across as shaming the VOA or anything, because I'm not. I truly want what's best for the association, but I need better understanding on the future plans and thoughts. (Read as, please don't ban me.) If someone would like to speak at length over the phone about the questions, I'd be more than happy to do so then summarize the answers and post at a later date.


Professionally,

Nick Anderson

[Viper98]

Excellent post!!!!!!!!!!!
Excellent questions!!!!!!!!!

I agree 1000%!!!!!!!!!!

Lotta good folks out there with plenty o’ knowledge to share. And some of these same peeps don’t want to pay for the mag. “Punitive measure” for not getting the mag may cause loss of membership and possible loss of posted info. Not good.

I agree: I certainly hope the enthusiasts can still post. Mamba members can post and also get the mag. This seems like a fair set-up, to me. There are so few Vipers and parts getting harder and harder to find it only makes sense to allow the enthusiast to post. I believe we ALL could use whatever help we may need in the future and the more open avenues the better.

If the mods are volunteers also, then getting rid of them is difficult to understand. I mean, they’ve been doing a great job thus far. Why change?

!!!!!Gotta have checks and balances!!!!

[Viper Girl]

Hi Nick, I'll try to answer as much as I can.

Moderators: The Mod team from this forum won't be moving to the new site. As to who will moderate, I don't know the answer to that.

New Website: Will be in "read-only" mode for non club members (i.e. Enthusiasts)

The current forums - will be read only and in an archive. I will be working with the BOD to preserve the data that currently resides here.

Cost of new website/forum - I believe the new site was made as a donation based service. Back in October, I asked that the new site not be started yet, as it was renewal time. I'd rather not think of the headaches that could occur from making a major change during renewal time. One of the issues with this forum, is apparently the previous coding isn't aging well. The club is looking to have an easier time updating rather than having to hire a programmer to keep the site up to date.

Recovering lost regions - I do not know the answer to that, that would likely be someone on the BOD.

One thing to note guys... I do not believe this change is being done out of malice as in the days of The Morgue. To me, I think there should have been meetings between the Mod team and the BOD to produce a new TOS for posting on the forums. Plus add a few more moderators, to keep threads chilled out. We'll see how it goes... My experience is nothing is set in stone... that theory works in a huge percentage of our lives. Maybe this works out great for the club, or maybe they decide to make some changes.

[13COBRA]

Hi Nick, I'll try to answer as much as I can.

Moderators: The Mod team from this forum won't be moving to the new site. As to who will moderate, I don't know the answer to that.

New Website: Will be in "read-only" mode for non club members (i.e. Enthusiasts)

The current forums - will be read only and in an archive. I will be working with the BOD to preserve the data that currently resides here.

Cost of new website/forum - I believe the new site was made as a donation based service. Back in October, I asked that the new site not be started yet, as it was renewal time. I'd rather not think of the headaches that could occur from making a major change during renewal time. One of the issues with this forum, is apparently the previous coding isn't aging well. The club is looking to have an easier time updating rather than having to hire a programmer to keep the site up to date.

Recovering lost regions - I do not know the answer to that, that would likely be someone on the BOD.

One thing to note guys... I do not believe this change is being done out of malice as in the days of The Morgue. To me, I think there should have been meetings between the Mod team and the BOD to produce a new TOS for posting on the forums. Plus add a few more moderators, to keep threads chilled out. We'll see how it goes... My experience is nothing is set in stone... that theory works in a huge percentage of our lives. Maybe this works out great for the club, or maybe they decide to make some changes.

Thanks for the reply!

That's really unfortunate about the mods, and the read-only mode. The current forums being pushed to pasture is incredible as well. This forum will suffer, and so will the collective Viper owners.

I don't think things are being done out of malice...I do question the membership thread disappearing though...but the changes aren't being done to best preserve the Viper either.

[Viper Girl]

The current forums being based on older programming formats would hit the wall at some point. I’m planning to jump in and do everything I can to move this current forum to a platform where it can be updated and live to hopefully be there for the future of all things Viper.

This club can’t exist without volunteers. Period. Hopefully more join me in helping to preserve the club.

[13COBRA]

The current forums being based on older programming formats would hit the wall at some point. I’m planning to jump in and do everything I can to move this current forum to a platform where it can be updated and live to hopefully be there for the future of all things Viper.

This club can’t exist without volunteers. Period. Hopefully more join me in helping to preserve the club.

I've seen numerous people in the last 12 months jump ship after being willing to help for the past 10+ years. The direction its heading is concerning.

[Viper Girl]

I hear that, and at the same time think if we don't like the direction of the club, then it's time to step up and do something about it.

[13COBRA]

I hear that, and at the same time think if we don't like the direction of the club, then it's time to step up and do something about it.

Unfortunately the path the club is taking is pushing valuable people away, not inviting them to help with the problem.

If the officers in charge when they took out the loan would've came to membership and explained the situation and the stress it put on the club, I would bet a large amount of money that we would've raised enough money very quickly that would've avoided the loan.

When it came to light originally I said I would gladly send them $1600 as my share as long as there was a good plan moving forward. Literally crickets. 10 or so members referenced my offer, not one BOD or officer said a word.

Unless big changes happen, soon.. VCA 2.0

[viperguy69]

Nick,

I will tell you that there was no way I was going to collect contributions for the loan without first knowing what our operating expenses were and then getting them under control. So, unless someone else was going to volunteer to do that last year it was not going to happen!

I too said I would contribute $1000 last year but not before we figure out our expenses and whether or not we had our membership priced right to continue operating.

The club is currently priced at just under 975 members based on a 60/40 split to pay all our bills - zero based and without any reliance on vendors/sponsors.

So, now that we know we can operate within a budget can we now look at getting rid of the burden of the SBA Loan... any other effort before that would have been kicking the can down the road.

We intend to do a fund raising effort this year to start the buy-down of the loan. I want to look at 100% of all contribution going directly to the loan, not 97% after fees but rather 100%; I hope your $1600 pledge will still be available and I will change mine from $1000 to $1600 to match if you contribute.

2022 was all about stop the bleeding, start the breathing, and treat for shock based on the decision made in 2021. We just finished up on treating for shock!

[Patentlaw]

Wow.......

Ok. Let me get this straight...............(as I am just an Enthusiast again)...
So for all the forums that I am on Corvettes, Jaguars, Land Rovers......only the Viper owners are going to charge for even posting.

And....as an Enthusiast, I obviously have not been checking up on the financial stuff......but there are loan(s) outstanding for some reason?
And....knowing the background from the last VCA stuff.....we have people struggling to make a buck over others with parts and all other manner of stupid crap. And the people who really sell parts, etc. get harassed.

Maybe I am missing something, but really what is needed for funds to run a website? I own a couple as a business owner. Essentially nothing for costs. What is all this stuff about loans and contributions for "operating expenses"?

It seems that there is a problem with spending money. If you don't have the money......then don't spend it. Pretty simple.

Just way way too much drama here. After a first year of being a member......this stuff just gets old. After five......you just shake your head. After 15 years.....it seems the constant struggle for money is just going to end it all.

While I don't speak for all Enthusiasts....I know I speak for some......

Many of us don't have to pay for friends in life, least of all on a forum. Be it Mamba, Super Member, Regular Member, blah blah blah....

And so it ends for the Enthusiasts....

[ViperJon]

Perfect. The final fatal blow to a dying car forum. There will be about 30 people posting.

[capevettes]

Interesting thread, for sure. Like many, I have transitioned to Enthusiast from Mamba member. I just didn't like the direction the VOA appeared to be going in. I was still considering re-upping to Mamba. Now this. Not being able to post as an enthusiast will just serve to alienate more of us. It will not stimulate us to pay up. As an active member of many other car Forums, this is the only one that will charge you to participate.
There are many great people here, with a wealth of information. It would be a shame to see it all go away. These decisions should be reconsidered.
My 2 cents.

[Bill W]

Terrible decision on posts. Looks like the VCA will be the place to go!

[daveg]

Interesting thread, for sure. Like many, I have transitioned to Enthusiast from Mamba member. I just didn't like the direction the VOA appeared to be going in. I was still considering re-upping to Mamba. Now this. Not being able to post as an enthusiast will just serve to alienate more of us. It will not stimulate us to pay up. As an active member of many other car Forums, this is the only one that will charge you to participate.
There are many great people here, with a wealth of information. It would be a shame to see it all go away. These decisions should be reconsidered.
My 2 cents.

Like Paul, I have reconsidered joining again, I have been a Mamba member a long time. Paul and I (we are great friends) have many conversations over IPA's and Cigars about the VOA and our New England Chapter. If Enthusiasts will be stripped of posting, its the last nail in the coffin for me, I will never look back and I will probably find another forum to contribute to.
Stay forever young..
David Guaraldi

[GTS Dean]

I just looked and see that I have Subscribed to 60 threads. I have provided content to about half of them, while the balance provide me, and others, with useful tips, photos and a general knowledge base for myriad Viper issues. What will happen to Subscriptions? Do I need to work on a detailed list of these now before the switch? What about photo uploads - do I need to pull everything back down to make sure nothing is lost when the switch is flipped? I ask this because that's EXACTLY what happened on another popular Viper site about 2 years ago. Since that time, the technical traffic there has dwindled to almost nothing and a bunch of people just LEFT. Just because a thread is idle for a long time doesn't mean that good and useful content cannot be added to.

[viperguy69]

I just looked and see that I have Subscribed to 60 threads. I have provided content to about half of them, while the balance provide me, and others, with useful tips, photos and a general knowledge base for myriad Viper issues. What will happen to Subscriptions? Do I need to work on a detailed list of these now before the switch? What about photo uploads - do I need to pull everything back down to make sure nothing is lost when the switch is flipped? I ask this because that's EXACTLY what happened on another popular Viper site about 2 years ago. Since that time, the technical traffic there has dwindled to almost nothing and a bunch of people just LEFT. Just because a thread is idle for a long time doesn't mean that good and useful content cannot be added to.

This forum will be archived as is, just no more posting. Everyone will be able to see and read the posting under: driveviperforums.com

There are a few key aspects that I need to talk through as well that this historical forum needs to have all content as viewable and not hidden until logged on.

[viperguy69]

Wow.......

Ok. Let me get this straight...............(as I am just an Enthusiast again)...
So for all the forums that I am on Corvettes, Jaguars, Land Rovers......only the Viper owners are going to charge for even posting.
.
.
.
Many of us don't have to pay for friends in life, least of all on a forum. Be it Mamba, Super Member, Regular Member, blah blah blah....

And so it ends for the Enthusiasts....

Those are forums, designed to make money based on the number of viewers that they can draw/attract to their website to show vendors why it will cost them more to advertise with them based on their audience.

They are not a "Not-for-Profit" or 501c7 organizations that derive their money from membership. We can only take 35% of our funding/revenue from other sources and it has to be related to the what type of club you host and its mission. I cannot take money from a watch company unless they are selling a Viper watch, if I do it's taxable income. Members who sign-up have a 100% ownership stake of the VOA for that year. By law, membership is conditional - must own or have owned a Viper - if you are an enthusiast who never owned a Viper you cannot join. I did not make that rule, the federal government did.

[Fatboy 18]

Sorry but I really can't see this ending well. Even after the Club disclosed the massive overspend and Magazine costings, the Board still wanted to press ahead with a Denver Viper event! You have taken out loans and now you want to exclude past members from contributing to a new website, I really do feel you guys are going in the totally wrong direction. Personally I have posted helpful information over the years, adding info and Pictures to How to guides. its been all about keeping our car on the road. If you stop people from posting then it will become a small elite forum and your Sponsors will likely not be happy either! The Club should not be spending cash that it does not have!

[13COBRA]

Nick,

I will tell you that there was no way I was going to collect contributions for the loan without first knowing what our operating expenses were and then getting them under control. So, unless someone else was going to volunteer to do that last year it was not going to happen!

You knew the $$$ amount of the loan. At that point, anyone willing to contribute to its paydown should've been allowed to do so and taken some of that burden off of the membership.

Interesting thread, for sure. Like many, I have transitioned to Enthusiast from Mamba member. I just didn't like the direction the VOA appeared to be going in. I was still considering re-upping to Mamba. Now this. Not being able to post as an enthusiast will just serve to alienate more of us. It will not stimulate us to pay up. As an active member of many other car Forums, this is the only one that will charge you to participate.
There are many great people here, with a wealth of information. It would be a shame to see it all go away. These decisions should be reconsidered.
My 2 cents.

I agree.

Terrible decision on posts. Looks like the VCA will be the place to go!

I hope that's not the case. I really hope the VOA is salvageable.

I just looked and see that I have Subscribed to 60 threads. I have provided content to about half of them, while the balance provide me, and others, with useful tips, photos and a general knowledge base for myriad Viper issues. What will happen to Subscriptions? Do I need to work on a detailed list of these now before the switch? What about photo uploads - do I need to pull everything back down to make sure nothing is lost when the switch is flipped? I ask this because that's EXACTLY what happened on another popular Viper site about 2 years ago. Since that time, the technical traffic there has dwindled to almost nothing and a bunch of people just LEFT. Just because a thread is idle for a long time doesn't mean that good and useful content cannot be added to.

All very good questions!

If the answer is yes to any of those question, I sure hope we get a hard date on the switchover so we can take necessary measurements to save our information.

[viperguy69]

Sorry but I really can't see this ending well. Even after the Club disclosed the massive overspend and Magazine costings, the Board still wanted to press ahead with a Denver Viper event! You have taken out loans and now you want to exclude past members from contributing to a new website, I really do feel you guys are going in the totally wrong direction. Personally I have posted helpful information over the years, adding info and Pictures to How to guides. its been all about keeping our car on the road. If you stop people from posting then it will become a small elite forum and your Sponsors will likely not be happy either! The Club should not be spending cash that it does not have!

NVE-5 is a VOA event in that you have to be a member to attend. But the cash, events, and management is all being done by the region who wanted to run the event themselves and they assumed the liability, we have an agreement with them on this matter.

We are not spending the any more money on NVE-5, that dried up in 2021 with the $20K investment + $5K future GL insurance contribution for the event. As of February 2022, all funds for the NVE have to come from members going to an NVE. The NVE has two sponsors who have agreed to take on any potential loss, it is not on the VOA if it's successful as you would imply. However, the VOA is going to do as much as we can to make sure the event is a success as it will have future implications. But, the vote in early 2022 was that NVE must be self sufficient and cannot draw capital from the club which takes away deliverables promised. So, you are misinformed in regards to that aspect. Proceeds/profits, if any, from NVE-5 will go into a cash reserve for the next NVE.

[viperguy69]

You knew the $$$ amount of the loan. At that point, anyone willing to contribute to its paydown should've been allowed to do so and taken some of that burden off of the membership.

The loan was a best guess and anything above $200K required a personal guarantee of repayment from someone - who was going to sign that dotted line? We were negotiating well into 2022 with our vendors to get the debt under control. Some of the vendors had not sent us a bill in over a year for services rendered. Cash accounting does not map cash to potential bills only to the bills in front of you. The final debt was -$250K! Alex, mostly, negotiated the debt with one of our vendors and we ended up with a -$176k! loss for 2021.

So, NO we did not know the $$$ as we were still getting bills. Spending a lot of time working on those bills, making phone calls, pissing people off (surprising I know) getting our bills and finances under control and out of the cash accounting method being used with the finance team. Limits had to be set. Everything had to be briefed to the BOD. From January 2022 until April 2022 we had weekly meeting to discuss every aspect of club finances, operations, and the future of the club. Those meeting averaged 3 hours each! From March until December 2022 we averaged two meetings a month and finally for BoD meeting got under 1.5 hours.

There were many opinions, some louder then others. However, one opinion does not make for a vote of the majority with a BoD consisting of 39 voting members (some presidents dual hatted but only had one vote). Who do you think put together the databases, charts, and briefs for those three hour meetings? Yes, there were bandwidth issues as an unpaid volunteer. For the finance team: one team member just stepped into an executive position demanding more hours at work; another team member was in the middle of tax season with the firm they owned; I just retired from the military and getting settled into a new job. So yes, bandwidth issues for the volunteers who need to also get some sleep so they could be functional the next morning while getting materials researched, developed, and put together for weekly briefs. I know my Viper projects (MEDUSA Project specifically - Thanks HAWK for the ACR-E cut-outs) and Viper drive time was non-existent in 2022 because of all the work the team was doing to save the club.

So, yes there was NOBODY volunteering to take on another duty/project as we were all focused on having a club beyond 2022. And for all that hard work that the BoD did we now have in excess of $100K extra in the bank to ensure the club can pay its bills and could pay off the majority of the loan if it so chooses. But we are looking at 3-5 years, without a funding drive, to pay off the loan at this moment keeping the $100K in cash reserves and drawing more interest then the loan debits. Once that is done we will look at what more should be done with membership dues and regional distributions - again for the BoD to be briefed and for them to agree to based on what membership wants.

If you don't like the direction of the club then please stand-up!

My position becomes available 1 January 2024 and we are taking applications now until October 2023 for vote for that happens in November 2023 for the new National officers.

[ViperSRT]

You are making a huge effort to convince us that the BoD did everything, even though most of that same BoD was at fault for the bad financial condition of the club. You cannot be saviors of your own created issue no matter how well you toot your own horn!

As for comments about what the membership wanted that is nigh impossible given that that same BoD had the membership thread deleted.

So please do continue on your present path of self destruction. Once you flip the switch you will no longer hear any negative Enthusiast comments to highlight the things gone wrong. And that will be adios from many of us.

[quickster2]

I hope they don't cut everyone but members "off" as this forum is transitioned. This forum really represents the active Viper Community. It is much more than just a knowledge base.

[viperguy69]

You are making a huge effort to convince us that the BoD did everything, even though most of that same BoD was at fault for the bad financial condition of the club. You cannot be saviors of your own created issue no matter how well you toot your own horn!

As for comments about what the membership wanted that is nigh impossible given that that same BoD had the membership thread deleted.

So please do continue on your present path of self destruction. Once you flip the switch you will no longer hear any negative Enthusiast comments to highlight the things gone wrong. And that will be adios from many of us.

Sorry, I was not on the BoD in 2021!

Many of the President changed over these last few years, so they were also not on the BoD.

Yes, some of the BoD is the same.

My joining the BoD was unique as a result of the current situation - I was never a member of the VOA BoD - club was in trouble and I stepped up to help.

Every BoD member that continued past 2021 could have left, what did they get for staying? They do not draw a salary, they do not even get a free cup of coffee.

So, what is your point?

If everyone of them left, who is running their region? Who is running the Club? Their region believes they are doing a good enough job to remain a regional president and as a result they are a member on the BoD.

The regions chose their presidents and those presidents serve on the BoD. In return, the regional presidents choose the National Leadership to serve for two years. For 2022 there were not very many applications for those positions.

If you don't like it, please provide your application and do something about it.

[SA Heat]

Seems the VOA is focused on being a social club with a fancy magazine. This proves to me it's not about the cars.