Peoples Republic of Viper

[braunstein82]

Your possibly right. Most of these points have already been brought up (over a year ago), argued about, discussed and voted on. What is questioning questions that have already been addressed and handled by a majority vote. JS

[13COBRA]

Your possibly right. Most of these points have already been brought up (over a year ago), argued about, discussed and voted on. What is questioning questions that have already been addressed and handled by a majority vote. JS

Well as far as the Enthusiasts being able to contribute or not, that seems very undecided and just recently became public knowledge.

Feel free to continue whatever you think you're doing, fortunately we don't have to agree and I'll still sleep tonight.

[COI]

I've shared my views on membership previously so I won't rehash any of that. I was a member of the VCA/VOA for over 24 years. My observation is the club has become more of a Gen V group vs. Gen I-IV. Those of us that have Gen I/II cars probably are not seeing the value that owners of Gen V cars do. The forums are a great place for owners of the earlier generation cars to gain access to information and many times, that information/assistance is provided by another enthusiast, not a member. If the club doesn't want to facilitate communications between enthusiasts that is their right but it seems to me it makes it even less likely a guy like me would rejoin as I would have no idea what value I would get since I'm not longer able to engage with the community via the forum (and I am one who doesn't care about the magazine and I'm not interested in NVE).

One other comment, while the BOD may be doing great things behind the scenes as some of you have noted, your "public persona" could use a lot of help. Some of you have eloquently stated all the great work ongoing but then some of the senior officers of the club come across as condescending and passive-aggressive with their comments which sets the BOD back IMO. If nothing else, I'd recommend the BOD identify someone with more appropriate communication skills to keep the membership (and ex-member enthusiasts) informed in a more constructive manner.

Bottom line, I'm never going to buy a Gen V but I would like access to the community of owners that can help me maintain and enjoy my Gen I/II cars. If that's the VOA, great. If not, hopefully something else will emerge to fill in that void.

[NottaVette]

Wow, another passionate thread.

My understanding is that there will be link on the new website to the "old" forum. The knowledge base is not going away. The Members only direction is being driven, in part, by the almost daily spammers that are trying to infiltrate the website which requires volunteer Moderator time to mitigate.

I think we need to give the current Management some space here. There is a level of transparency, fiscal responsibility, and leadership that was lacking previously.

I completely agree with this ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ And it became apparent that 2021 / 2022 were going to be tough years. The comment of stopping the bleeding and starting the breathing and treating for shock was very crafty and on point as well...... (totally relatable to this firefighter / EMT).

It seems to me that we have some VERY passionate and involved "enthusiasts" on this forum. There are excellent topics and concerns being brought up which the new National Officers appear to be attempting to resolve, with the help of the regions (to some extent). Yes, a direct answer to some of the inflammatory topics which seem wrought to destroy the VOA's intent MAY need to be put on hold for the moment. Does that mean there aren't any answers to them, or they're being ignored? I don't think so. It sounds more like the attention is being prioritized elsewhere to put out fires and address issue that need immediate attention to keep our Association afloat. Is it possible to pause beating this horse just for the 2023 season? Let's see how things proceed now that the bleeding has allegedly been stopped? It sounds like the VOA is breathing better. Let's see what "shock" happens for / after the '23 car season (yeah, welcome to New England, where we get like 6 months to enjoy our Vipers -safely- if we're lucky) and NVE5. I'm not implying that we turn a blind eye, or only look at this through rose colored glasses. I do suggest that, together, we optimistically give the new volunteers a chance to follow through for miles of smiles.

[Drummerviper]

I joined VCA in the beginning when there were no forums —-just a long run on thread. After it cratered, I joined here thinking surely people would learn from that cataclysmic experience They didn’t . Now as an enthusiast I mostly wander back in to see if possible the powers that be have continued to make profoundly bad decisions. I am never disappointed. Death by a thousand lashes continues.

[GTS Dean]

It's the same line of decision making about web presence, by a number of the same people who don't bother to participate here, that keep killing our web forums.

[ViperNC]

I paid $65 this year for the first time to become part of the Carolina's group, yet I'm an enthusiast on this site. I guess you have to pay more to become a full member to get the enthusiast title upgraded. Frankly, I'm not that concerned and will just see myself out if I can't post from time to time.

[quickster2]

The current management has stopped the bleeding and is finding the footing for a path forward. The Association is moving forward. I also was very critical of what happened especially once the financial situation was disclosed. I prefer to be part of the solution and not the problems, most of which are in the past. I'm confident the forum changes will sort themselves out in time. Everyone's best bet is to contact the regional Presidents and other members of the BOD to voice your suggestions. Maybe we can convince them to offer a "Premium Member" level to the forum. Almost every forum I belong to, and there are many, I pony up to be a Premium Member. One to avoid advertisements, and mostly to support the forum itself. Let's keep the dialogue going forward. Checking out solves nothing.

[13COBRA]

The current management has stopped the bleeding and is finding the footing for a path forward. The Association is moving forward. I also was very critical of what happened especially once the financial situation was disclosed. I prefer to be part of the solution and not the problems, most of which are in the past. I'm confident the forum changes will sort themselves out in time. Everyone's best bet is to contact the regional Presidents and other members of the BOD to voice your suggestions. Maybe we can convince them to offer a "Premium Member" level to the forum. Almost every forum I belong to, and there are many, I pony up to be a Premium Member. One to avoid advertisements, and mostly to support the forum itself. Let's keep the dialogue going forward. Checking out solves nothing.

I truly believe that you and Braunstein believe that we are just arguing for arguments sake. That's not the case. If the thread was still available from the first go around, there would've been no reason to make a second. If the thread was still available, you would see that a number of us, now, Enthusiasts, who were once members/Mamba members, offered to help. If the thread was still available from the first go around you'd see that no one is just 'checking out'.

For over a year the common statement from BoD and officers is 'wait and see, it's going to change'.

[braunstein82]

I truly believe that you and Braunstein believe that we are just arguing for arguments sake. That's not the case. If the thread was still available from the first go around, there would've been no reason to make a second. If the thread was still available, you would see that a number of us, now, Enthusiasts, who were once members/Mamba members, offered to help. If the thread was still available from the first go around you'd see that no one is just 'checking out'.

For over a year the common statement from BoD and officers is 'wait and see, it's going to change'.

Your right, I do. If so, why are you still arguing? You said your issue and thoughts of resolutions, but continue on. You were not willing to take a leadership role, we all were.
You offered to help, thanks. We offered to help more. Continue to wait and see, it's already changing. Actually you already know, you had a long call with them. 30+ people voted on all those decisions this past year. There's nothing left to argue on those topics. The majority has voted and it can't be changed. I don't agree with some of those changes, just as you don't. But I know when it's time to stop. (Which I said yesterday I was gonna do with you, contradicting myself) As for future issues, I say my peace and let the majority decide again, then I STOP and not plague everyone with more negativity. You can keep slipping in little jabs at me all you want, it's funny since I'm one of the few that is actually standing up in the BOD meetings for the same things as you keep on about. The whole reason I even commented on this NEW thread, was to try to keep some positivity, hope and assurance that the process is being done properly. ITS NOT A DICTATORSHIP. If we do just everything you say then it would be.

[13COBRA]

Your right, I do. If so, why are you still arguing? You said your issue and thoughts of resolutions, but continue on. You were not willing to take a leadership role, we all were.
You offered to help, thanks. We offered to help more. Continue to wait and see, it's already changing. Actually you already know, you had a long call with them. 30+ people voted on all those decisions this past year. There's nothing left to argue on those topics. The majority has voted and it can't be changed. I don't agree with some of those changes, just as you don't. But I know when it's time to stop. (Which I said yesterday I was gonna do with you, contradicting myself) As for future issues, I say my peace and let the majority decide again, then I STOP and not plague everyone with more negativity. You can keep slipping in little jabs at me all you want, it's funny since I'm one of the few that is actually standing up in the BOD meetings for the same things as you keep on about. The whole reason I even commented on this NEW thread, was to try to keep some positivity, hope and assurance that the process is being done properly. ITS NOT A DICTATORSHIP. If we do just everything you say then it would be.

Sir, you need to take a deep breath. Obviously you are all riled up, I get it.

I assure you I'm not nor was I making any personal jabs at anyone. If it came across like I was, I apologize.

Speaking to me, or anyone for that matter, the way you are is completely inexcusable and doesn't paint the BoD representation in any sort of way that they would like to be painted in I can guarantee that.

[Bill Pemberton]

History on Viper Club Forums has continued for Decades with comments of I don't want to join because I don't get anything from VOA/VCA because:
1. I live too far from the events
2. I don't like group activities
3. I don't like the Region I am affiliated with.
4. It is too expensive
5. etc.

Failure started a long time ago when VCA and then VOA gave in and failed to realize this is a Car Club first and foremost and the Forum is a benefit to "Members." The logic that having a Viper means you are " Entitled " to this Forum makes about as much sense as a Baptist demanding Communion at a Catholic Church because they are both Christians. Those of us who are members of Clubs and who have volunteered our services over the years realize how much extra time and cost this involves and it is tough to listen to others who essentially want a free ride, believe they are entitled to complain, but are not willing to actually volunteer. The sad part to me is so many of the quote " Enthusiasts " have good ideas but they are not willing to volunteer or do their part to help, and part of that means spending a small amount to become members. As a member of SCCA, NASA, PCA, Mustang Club of Omaha, VOA, and volunteering for various posts/jobs over the years it is frustrating to constantly hear complaints from those who do not contribute, except to voice their opinions of what is wrong. I noted comments on several threads about how so many of the comments are made by enthusiasts and not members and I can honestly state that there is no surprise to that, because many Members have no desire to get on a Forum about a car they love to constantly listen to the bashing and criticism from essentially outsiders. Having sold a bunch of Snakes I was privileged to gain a ton of friends and I have stayed in contact with many and ironically many are still members but they virtually never go to the Forum because they are worn out from the negativity.

In daily life we all know things don't get done by just complaining, we need to work at fixing the concern, so if you really want to see change join, volunteer and help implement things you want. Life is not a free ride, Forums attached to Clubs are completely different than " Open Forums " and it saddens me that many Members seldom visit here because they find it a place just to air grievances by those who have not skin in the game. Common problem for so many Car Clubs or Clubs in general and those who volunteer is always a small portion, but if you really want the Club and the Forum to survive, show your true passion for the Viper and become part of the solution.

[13COBRA]

History on Viper Club Forums has continued for Decades with comments of I don't want to join because I don't get anything from VOA/VCA because:
1. I live too far from the events
2. I don't like group activities
3. I don't like the Region I am affiliated with.
4. It is too expensive
5. etc.

Failure started a long time ago when VCA and then VOA gave in and failed to realize this is a Car Club first and foremost and the Forum is a benefit to "Members." The logic that having a Viper means you are " Entitled " to this Forum makes about as much sense as a Baptist demanding Communion at a Catholic Church because they are both Christians. Those of us who are members of Clubs and who have volunteered our services over the years realize how much extra time and cost this involves and it is tough to listen to others who essentially want a free ride, believe they are entitled to complain, but are not willing to actually volunteer. The sad part to me is so many of the quote " Enthusiasts " have good ideas but they are not willing to volunteer or do their part to help, and part of that means spending a small amount to become members. As a member of SCCA, NASA, PCA, Mustang Club of Omaha, VOA, and volunteering for various posts/jobs over the years it is frustrating to constantly hear complaints from those who do not contribute, except to voice their opinions of what is wrong. I noted comments on several threads about how so many of the comments are made by enthusiasts and not members and I can honestly state that there is no surprise to that, because many Members have no desire to get on a Forum about a car they love to constantly listen to the bashing and criticism from essentially outsiders. Having sold a bunch of Snakes I was privileged to gain a ton of friends and I have stayed in contact with many and ironically many are still members but they virtually never go to the Forum because they are worn out from the negativity.

In daily life we all know things don't get done by just complaining, we need to work at fixing the concern, so if you really want to see change join, volunteer and help implement things you want. Life is not a free ride, Forums attached to Clubs are completely different than " Open Forums " and it saddens me that many Members seldom visit here because they find it a place just to air grievances by those who have not skin in the game. Common problem for so many Car Clubs or Clubs in general and those who volunteer is always a small portion, but if you really want the Club and the Forum to survive, show your true passion for the Viper and become part of the solution.

Bill,

With all due respect, I was a member. It has nothing to do with money. I have offered to help, and will continue to do so.

There are 700 Enthusiasts currently, that were paid members in 2021. There are tons of past regional presidents that are now Enthusiasts.

To blindly renew without wanting what's best for the club is wrong.

If you don't see an issue with censoring the forums, then there's really nothing to argue about. Everyone has the right to their opinion, and I've always respected yours Bill but doesn't mean I have to agree.

[braunstein82]

Bill,

With all due respect, I was a member. It has nothing to do with money. I have offered to help, and will continue to do so.

There are 700 Enthusiasts currently, that were paid members in 2021. There are tons of past regional presidents that are now Enthusiasts.

To blindly renew without wanting what's best for the club is wrong.

If you don't see an issue with censoring the forums, then there's really nothing to argue about. Everyone has the right to their opinion, and I've always respected yours Bill but doesn't mean I have to agree.

Here you push your agenda and repeat yourself once again. Doesn't set a good representation of enthutaist and doesn't paint the enthusiast representation in any sort of way that they would like to be painted in I can guarantee that. It also continues to hurt our chances of getting enthusiast to be able to post and comment on the new site.

[Bill Pemberton]

I have nothing against varying opinions I just believe if you want to voice your opinions you need to be part of the Organization. So many want to voice their thoughts outside of Clubs, Churches, Organizations and yet they don't want to contribute. If it has nothing to do with money, then join since you should be allowed more access as you would with anything you join. Arguing that there are a bunch of Enthusiasts does not entitle folks to tell those that join and pay what should be done. If we want the Club and the Forum to be here in years to come, then support is necessary, just like a Church tithing keeps the doors open. You can write it off the Company, and that shows you really want to help.

One can institute change alot more from within than commenting from the sidelines. Why do we as humans join various things in life, but to voice our concerns ,make changes and to hopefully make improvements. But joining has its privileges and to listen to everyone who is not even part of the organization to dictate things is irrational. I have not problem with differing views, but I do believe they should come from those who have joined any group, club or organization.

Over the last two decades we have seen an " Entitlement " scenario that covers all political parties , schools, and more, and it was foreseen by Psychologists and Sociologists in the early days of Social Media. I am just old fashioned enough to believe no one is entitled at all, and you have to earn the privilege and sometimes that involves funds to get into a group --- money is always an issue as it is needed for Churches, Synagogues, Mosques, Clubs, Organizations ,etc. to survive and operate in our World.

[13COBRA]

Here you push your agenda and repeat yourself once again. Doesn't set a good representation of enthutaist and doesn't paint the enthusiast representation in any sort of way that they would like to be painted in I can guarantee that. It also continues to hurt the chances of getting enthusiast to be able to post and comment on the new site.

...I have no idea why you take this so personally. I have no intention of butting heads with you.

I have nothing against varying opinions I just believe if you want to voice your opinions you need to be part of the Organization. So many want to voice their thoughts outside of Clubs, Churches, Organizations and yet they don't want to contribute. If it has nothing to do with money, then join since you should be allowed more access as you would with anything you join. Arguing that there are a bunch of Enthusiasts does not entitle folks to tell those that join and pay what should be done. If we want the Club and the Forum to be here in years to come, then support is necessary, just like a Church tithing keeps the doors open. You can write it off the Company, and that shows you really want to help.

One can institute change alot more from within than commenting from the sidelines. Why do we as humans join various things in life, but to voice our concerns ,make changes and to hopefully make improvements. But joining has its privileges and to listen to everyone who is not even part of the organization to dictate things is irrational. I have not problem with differing views, but I do believe they should come from those who have joined any group, club or organization.

Over the last two decades we have seen an " Entitlement " scenario that covers all political parties , schools, and more, and it was foreseen by Psychologists and Sociologists in the early days of Social Media. I am just old fashioned enough to believe no one is entitled at all, and you have to earn the privilege and sometimes that involves funds to get into a group --- money is always an issue as it is needed for Churches, Synagogues, Mosques, Clubs, Organizations ,etc. to survive and operate in our World.

I hear that and don't disagree with you. Last year when I was a Mamba member I was asking the same questions with no answers...so being told to rejoin to be have the right to know, seems counterproductive to me.

The last part is where we disagree. I don't feel entitled to anything. The officers and BoD took the stance of wait and see, things are changing... and after 2 years, I'm asking what's changed and drawing parallels to the end of the VCA as we knew it.

It is what it is. This week, maybe beginning of next week will tell the tale and it'll assist me in making my decision on how to proceed.

In the meantime, enjoy your vacation, wish you were coming to Heartland this weekend!

[Bill Pemberton]

Being upright on this Globe for quite awhile has allowed me to see almost every organization, Church, Club I was a member of have problems. Especially those with Volunteers because the few do the work of many. I have often felt guilty because I could not do my share, but I was rational enough to know that my funds helped work towards a solution. The interesting note is you bring up a time table of 2 years for the Club to get things straightened out and yet I am a little surprised you have not noted the struggle so many businesses have since the Pandemic and supply issues and many of those who are working to get things back on track also have businesses to run. I believe things are going forward and like you I would appreciate it if it was happening sooner, but then I know of so many other areas where folks are still trying to get back up to full speed. So, I will support and give those working hard more time and I hope you and others will do the same. You were a Member and I hope you will rejoin now, because if you want to help, keep things viable so those volunteering have the means needed. No vacation yet, and I will miss watching your Snake whip up on the unsuspecting at Heartland Motorsports Park.

[SRT_BluByU]

Bummer to hear I'll be cut off from contributing shortly.. Guess its back to VCA if another Forum doesnt pop up.. Thats a real bummer and seems it'll significantly decrease the knowledgeable and response times.. I suppose only time will tell if thats a good decision or not.


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