New VOA Website coming to a drive in near you

[Steve M]

I told myself I wouldn't waste another second of my life responding to this thread, but for whatever reason, I just can't let this go. It's mostly pride at this point.

What I'm about to write is my opinion based on years of experience with many internet forums and other social media platforms.

My point: forums still have value even as other social media platforms have largely driven them to obsolescence. This one changing is a big deal, and I'm going to try to explain why.

I also realize that some of this will be tooting my own horn. This isn't lost on me, but it's clear that there are some that don't understand why they should exist, and others that clearly don't value what goes in to creating solid technical content.

There's a spectrum of interaction that spans from completely passive (e.g. magazines) all the way to fully interactive (e.g. Facebook and Instagram).

Magazines are totally passive interactions. Content goes in; magazines go out. Some read them, some briefly glance at them, and others put them straight in the trash. You can interact (e.g. letters to the editor), but it requires a significant amount of effort, and there's a massive delay in any response(s). Content has to be pristine - no spelling errors, and pictures need to be of the highest quality. There's a price to be paid for that, and in the case of the VOA magazine, that is a known quantity.

There's also the issue of accessibility - if you miss an issue for whatever reason (you weren't a member at that point, you misplaced it, etc.), it can be incredibly difficult, if not impossible, to get that information back. And if you do, it generally involves you shelling out more money for something that's already been bought/paid for long ago.

At the other end of the spectrum are platforms like Facebook and Instagram.

Instagram is the least satisfying to me, but it has its place. It's great for quickly sharing pics of what's going on in your life, but there's little in the way of technical content. Whether or not your content gets seen by anyone is up to their algorithms. Their algorithms value interaction (views, likes, and comments) - the more followers you have, the more likely your content is to be pushed to the top of the heap for others to see. As it turns out, the prettier you are, the more followers you are likely to have. I have a face for radio and I don't look good in a bikini, so I'm probably never going to be a true Instagram influencer. Instagram has also been overrun by bots that want you to send your content to other accounts with more followers so they can get credit for your work.

Facebook is largely the same, although there is a bit more technical content there. The downside is that interactions are fast, and you can easily miss some good stuff because it gets buried by all the other garbage that's streaming in right behind it. Their algorithms also value interaction, but they don't care if it is positive or negative. Actually, I'd wager a healthy amount of money that negative interactions net the most interaction. Angertainment is a real thing, and it's what turns me off to that platform.

And then you have forums. They've been around for a long time, and their niche is technical content archives. I'm a member of many, and have moderated others. I can't tell you how many projects I've taken on for my other vehicles (like my daily driven Toyota Tacoma) because that content exists. Without it, I wouldn't have attempted half the things I've done that have saved me thousands of dollars over the years. It's a critical enabler for an average DIYer like me.

You can say something similar for YouTube, but forums are more accessible for the average content creator - forums don't require video editing software/experience for you to share how to do something. I can also interact with my content and the content of others by asking and answering questions, the answers to which only add to the story and are easy to digest because you have the necessary context.

What I'm guessing some don't realize is what it takes to make solid technical content on a forum. To be clear: this is the tooting my own horn part.

Take for example one of my latest write-ups - how to rebuild a Gen 3-5 Viper differential (https://driveviper.com/forums/thread...per-44-Rebuild). The only reason I took on that project was because there was another thread over on the VCA forum that gave me the confidence to try it myself (https://www.viperclub.org/vca/thread...change.659129/). Unfortunately, that other thread no longer has pictures, and without them, it's missing most of the valuable information. That's what prompted me to recreate it here so that others could benefit.

To give you some perspective, here's a screen shot of the Word document I used to keep everything organized for that thread:



That's 59 pages (26,000+ words) without pictures, all of which were taken by me, edited, and hosted through a 3rd party website. Each major section in that thread took me about 4 hours to produce, not including the significant increase in my labor hours to take pictures along the way. There are 19 major sections x 4 hours each = 76 hours in that one thread alone, and that's probably an underestimate.

And that's not the only one I've done (some clearly better than others):

https://driveviper.com/forums/thread...acement-Gen-IV
https://driveviper.com/forums/thread...Results-Thread
https://driveviper.com/forums/thread...l=1#post122473
https://driveviper.com/forums/thread...l=1#post433200
https://driveviper.com/forums/thread...it-DIY-Install
https://driveviper.com/forums/thread...o-Gen-4-Clutch

The list could go on.

All those hours + all of the parts, tools, etc. all on my dime and my time, all freely given to this community to make it a better place. I genuinely want to help others as others have so generously helped me (Dr. Steve Fess, a.k.a. Steve-Indy, is a great example of that).

That's why I get so upset when people talk about putting it behind a paywall. Maintaining it as a static database is also undesirable because picture hosting websites come and go (e.g. Photobucket), and if I can't go back and edit broken links, those threads are no longer valuable. I also can't post updates (and I have a lot of them for the differential rebuild that I haven't been able to get to) if the database is no longer accessible/editable, and I can assure you that I do go back and edit when/if needed.

Asking me to pay for the privilege of being able to post that content also makes me upset. It's essentially a slap in the face that says "your content has no value to this community". I personally feel like I've paid my dues and then some by the information I've provided to others, but that seems to be the minority view here. I don't want the magazine, and my local region's events don't interest me at all.

Hopefully this gives at least some insight into why some of us are so upset. Or at least why I'm upset.

I know it will fall on deaf ears, but I've at least said my piece.

Do with this information what you will.

[13COBRA]

Thanks Steve. I love reading through your threads. They're very well written and organized with tons of valuable information!

[TrackAire]

Staying an Enthusiast based on ethical principles.

I will never financially support a "group" that secretly applied for and then took out a Covid Loan for a freaking car club that made huge financial and operational errors before Covid even existed. Not an email, no forum post in the Members Area, nothing informing the paying membership of the clubs issues or the plans to fix the financial debacle before considering the Covid loan. The VOA is a business and like any other business it should have filed Chapter 11 to regroup, reorganize and pay back its creditors. I have my own opinions on why a Covid Loan was used instead of doing it the right way. Using tax dollars to save a car club that does not even have ONE paid employee is boarding on fraud.

The lack of transparency is just too much for me. Why BOD meetings can't be archived so they can be watched by the paying members is beyond me.....especially after the financial debacle from 2018 to 2021. I'm not accepting blind faith anymore.

Whatever happens to the forum, so be it.

[J TNT]

Great post and perspective Steve !
I know many have benifited from the many technical threads that were enthusiast Based that you and others have put serious time into .
Even the Classified section has less activity that I'm sure sponsors see .

Having the continuity ,Historical and Technical knowledge accessible is one way of Bringing back the 700 Lost members over the last 2 years .

[Hawk]

I am not a paying member however I have spent many hours posting detailed write ups on many items with the Gen 5. I think this information is certainly worth having access to as well as the ability to add to any of the informational threads with new updates to continue helping members and read only lurkers. I cant say would see the value in buying a subscription so I will just turn into a read only person. BOD Thank you for the many years you have spent keeping this site running and I hope a better resolution can be found to this new format as I have found this site to be very valuable in regards to seeking information on these cars. Perhaps you could offer a low cost membership for guys like me that just want to interact with the form? Over the last year the content of this site has gone downhill dramatically and I think this change will kill the website and turn this into an informational archive only
Thank you
Dennis

[braunstein82]

I told myself I wouldn't waste another second of my life responding to this thread, but for whatever reason, I just can't let this go. It's mostly pride at this point.

What I'm about to write is my opinion based on years of experience with many internet forums and other social media platforms.

My point: forums still have value even as other social media platforms have largely driven them to obsolescence. This one changing is a big deal, and I'm going to try to explain why.

I also realize that some of this will be tooting my own horn. This isn't lost on me, but it's clear that there are some that don't understand why they should exist, and others that clearly don't value what goes in to creating solid technical content.

There's a spectrum of interaction that spans from completely passive (e.g. magazines) all the way to fully interactive (e.g. Facebook and Instagram).

Magazines are totally passive interactions. Content goes in; magazines go out. Some read them, some briefly glance at them, and others put them straight in the trash. You can interact (e.g. letters to the editor), but it requires a significant amount of effort, and there's a massive delay in any response(s). Content has to be pristine - no spelling errors, and pictures need to be of the highest quality. There's a price to be paid for that, and in the case of the VOA magazine, that is a known quantity.

There's also the issue of accessibility - if you miss an issue for whatever reason (you weren't a member at that point, you misplaced it, etc.), it can be incredibly difficult, if not impossible, to get that information back. And if you do, it generally involves you shelling out more money for something that's already been bought/paid for long ago.

At the other end of the spectrum are platforms like Facebook and Instagram.

Instagram is the least satisfying to me, but it has its place. It's great for quickly sharing pics of what's going on in your life, but there's little in the way of technical content. Whether or not your content gets seen by anyone is up to their algorithms. Their algorithms value interaction (views, likes, and comments) - the more followers you have, the more likely your content is to be pushed to the top of the heap for others to see. As it turns out, the prettier you are, the more followers you are likely to have. I have a face for radio and I don't look good in a bikini, so I'm probably never going to be a true Instagram influencer. Instagram has also been overrun by bots that want you to send your content to other accounts with more followers so they can get credit for your work.

Facebook is largely the same, although there is a bit more technical content there. The downside is that interactions are fast, and you can easily miss some good stuff because it gets buried by all the other garbage that's streaming in right behind it. Their algorithms also value interaction, but they don't care if it is positive or negative. Actually, I'd wager a healthy amount of money that negative interactions net the most interaction. Angertainment is a real thing, and it's what turns me off to that platform.

And then you have forums. They've been around for a long time, and their niche is technical content archives. I'm a member of many, and have moderated others. I can't tell you how many projects I've taken on for my other vehicles (like my daily driven Toyota Tacoma) because that content exists. Without it, I wouldn't have attempted half the things I've done that have saved me thousands of dollars over the years. It's a critical enabler for an average DIYer like me.

You can say something similar for YouTube, but forums are more accessible for the average content creator - forums don't require video editing software/experience for you to share how to do something. I can also interact with my content and the content of others by asking and answering questions, the answers to which only add to the story and are easy to digest because you have the necessary context.

What I'm guessing some don't realize is what it takes to make solid technical content on a forum. To be clear: this is the tooting my own horn part.

Take for example one of my latest write-ups - how to rebuild a Gen 3-5 Viper differential (https://driveviper.com/forums/thread...per-44-Rebuild). The only reason I took on that project was because there was another thread over on the VCA forum that gave me the confidence to try it myself (https://www.viperclub.org/vca/thread...change.659129/). Unfortunately, that other thread no longer has pictures, and without them, it's missing most of the valuable information. That's what prompted me to recreate it here so that others could benefit.

To give you some perspective, here's a screen shot of the Word document I used to keep everything organized for that thread:



That's 59 pages (26,000+ words) without pictures, all of which were taken by me, edited, and hosted through a 3rd party website. Each major section in that thread took me about 4 hours to produce, not including the significant increase in my labor hours to take pictures along the way. There are 19 major sections x 4 hours each = 76 hours in that one thread alone, and that's probably an underestimate.

And that's not the only one I've done (some clearly better than others):

https://driveviper.com/forums/thread...acement-Gen-IV
https://driveviper.com/forums/thread...Results-Thread
https://driveviper.com/forums/thread...l=1#post122473
https://driveviper.com/forums/thread...l=1#post433200
https://driveviper.com/forums/thread...it-DIY-Install
https://driveviper.com/forums/thread...o-Gen-4-Clutch

The list could go on.

All those hours + all of the parts, tools, etc. all on my dime and my time, all freely given to this community to make it a better place. I genuinely want to help others as others have so generously helped me (Dr. Steve Fess, a.k.a. Steve-Indy, is a great example of that).

That's why I get so upset when people talk about putting it behind a paywall. Maintaining it as a static database is also undesirable because picture hosting websites come and go (e.g. Photobucket), and if I can't go back and edit broken links, those threads are no longer valuable. I also can't post updates (and I have a lot of them for the differential rebuild that I haven't been able to get to) if the database is no longer accessible/editable, and I can assure you that I do go back and edit when/if needed.

Asking me to pay for the privilege of being able to post that content also makes me upset. It's essentially a slap in the face that says "your content has no value to this community". I personally feel like I've paid my dues and then some by the information I've provided to others, but that seems to be the minority view here. I don't want the magazine, and my local region's events don't interest me at all.

Hopefully this gives at least some insight into why some of us are so upset. Or at least why I'm upset.

I know it will fall on deaf ears, but I've at least said my piece.

Do with this information what you will.

Well said. Thanks for saying something and in a respectable way. The more that do that more BOD and reg prez will have a clearer picture of what the majority wants.

[braunstein82]

Staying an Enthusiast based on ethical principles.

I will never financially support a "group" that secretly applied for and then took out a Covid Loan for a freaking car club that made huge financial and operational errors before Covid even existed. Not an email, no forum post in the Members Area, nothing informing the paying membership of the clubs issues or the plans to fix the financial debacle before considering the Covid loan. The VOA is a business and like any other business it should have filed Chapter 11 to regroup, reorganize and pay back its creditors. I have my own opinions on why a Covid Loan was used instead of doing it the right way. Using tax dollars to save a car club that does not even have ONE paid employee is boarding on fraud.

The lack of transparency is just too much for me. Why BOD meetings can't be archived so they can be watched by the paying members is beyond me.....especially after the financial debacle from 2018 to 2021. I'm not accepting blind faith anymore.

Whatever happens to the forum, so be it.

I definitely understand your reasoning and agree with alot of what you said. I don't blame anyone that wants to wait and see. As long as they do it respectfully, as you just did. The new roles and new people on the Board are trying to fix that HUGE mistake now. Also do everything the right way now and forward. The meetings are being recorded now, I'm not sure there availability. Not sure about previous meetings prior to the debacle inception.

[braunstein82]

I am not a paying member however I have spent many hours posting detailed write ups on many items with the Gen 5. I think this information is certainly worth having access to as well as the ability to add to any of the informational threads with new updates to continue helping members and read only lurkers. I cant say would see the value in buying a subscription so I will just turn into a read only person. BOD Thank you for the many years you have spent keeping this site running and I hope a better resolution can be found to this new format as I have found this site to be very valuable in regards to seeking information on these cars. Perhaps you could offer a low cost membership for guys like me that just want to interact with the form? Over the last year the content of this site has gone downhill dramatically and I think this change will kill the website and turn this into an informational archive only
Thank you
Dennis

Forum membership option is already being discussed. Many favor it. The only issue that is seen with it, is it doesn't help increase membership and some believe that's the ultimate goal being it's a car club and not just a website. I ultimately think that option will come to fruition thou

[Bruce H.]

It would be really helpful to all region presidents if they surveyed their own members to understand the demand for the magazine, as opposed to making assumptions about Mamba member's reasons which in some cases would simply be to provide higher financial support for the club, and/or early access to NVE registration. Assumptions leads to poor decision making.

Region presidents should also survey their expired 2021 & 2022 members to determine what they need to renew again. The responses are sure to surprise.

This data is desperately needed by the VOA officers and region presidents to make informed and valid Board decisions over a wide range of issues at both the National and Regional club level...and no one has the required data. Regions can do this without waiting to fill a new VOA Membership Director position, or form a new VOA Membership Committee. Both of these roles will require this data in order to formulate their recommendations to the Board, and the Board members will need it in order to support those recommendations.