New VOA Website coming to a drive in near you

[viperguy69]

And you’ve exactly made my point why I didn’t renew.
Heckling LOL really…

Lol... and my point is affirmed!

[ViperSRT]

My suggestion is to check substantive threads and determine if contributions made by those shown as enthusiasts are significant or not. Assume that if the site is read only the expertise and experience of those enthusiasts will be lost. Thus begins the downward spiral of reduced content, reduced screen time and reduced value for any advertisers (if any are expected). The new forum will slowly lose any significance and disappear. Other social pages (VOA or others) will become the go to source for feedback and technical inquiry. No real loss to the enthusiasts, but without a forum the attractiveness of VOA membership will decrease.

So when does this slow burn begin!

[Steve M]

First point: don't forget that many of us "enthusiasts" were once paying members, and we've decided against supporting the VOA's future endeavors for many reasons, including poor leadership, lack of communication, and questionable ethics.

To which you'll reply: "Well, what did you do to help?"

I did what I reasonably could do: I stopped helping finance the VOA's poor decisions.

I've had some offline conversations with those that do volunteer, and one thing became quite clear to me from those conversations: the members that do volunteer and want to make a change often get bulldozed by the powers that be who clearly have their own agenda and want nothing to do with it.

Why in the world would I waste my time trying to fix something that can't possibly be fixed?

Moving on to the elephant in the room - the magazine.

If we just cut the magazine, like some suggested, we would have been by far worst off. Over 65% of the clubs members want the Magazine because they are subscribers. So, that knee jerk reaction could have cost us at least 35% of our membership! To get a hardcopy magazine, you pay for a hard copy magazine - it was established as a subscription service in 2022.

You've clearly drawn some conclusions as to the magazine's desirability by membership numbers alone, but there's one more question you need to answer before you go touting this as the concrete evidence you think it is that the magazine must go on: how many members blindly renewed, just like they do every year, because they knew nothing of the financial turmoil that was really going on behind the scenes? I remember those membership renewal emails, and they glossed over the gory details like just how much debt had been incurred and how there was now a massive loan that needed to be repaid that was kept out of the public eye. I also remember the emails that came from the region I used to be a part of; there was no mention of any of that. Why? Because they knew if they were up front about it, people wouldn't blindly renew like they usually do.

In fact, there used to be a record of all of that in the Membership Section that one day mysteriously disappeared. You sure made it seem like it was an accident, but things like that just don't "accidentally" happen. A conscious decision was clearly made. Yeah, it could have been a mistake, but there are too many signs that suggest it wasn't.

Case in point:

So, maybe the concern of the BoD is that membership does not use the forum out of concern of being ridiculed and heckled in the current open forum environment. Maybe the thought is that if the forum comments are left to only members then maybe they will use the forum more openly as a membership benefit since they pay for this website - an idea that has yet to be tested for the VOA.

Sure sounds to me like there is a strong desire to quash dissenting opinions, the next step being to not allow "enthusiasts" to post at all. I'd argue that this idea has indeed been tested when they deleted the Membership Section, and the VOA Board of Directors liked the result.

So what is it about the magazine? Who financially benefits from it, and what is their relationship with the VOA Board of Directors? This question, or one like it, was asked in that thread that is now no longer accessible to the masses. I don't remember it ever being answered.

This is what I mean when I say questionable ethics. The impression that someone has been lining their own pockets from the magazine (and continues to do so) clearly exists - you've done nothing that suggests this isn't the case. Why is that?

But why address it now when you know my voice will soon be silenced?

On to my last point:

The BoD never said that this decision was firm, fixed, and not open for discussion or further debate.

If you make this decision, it might as well be final. Once you lose folks, they won't come back no matter how many emails you might send in the future begging them to come back when forum participation plummets. Honestly, I'd be more inclined to go back to the VCA.

Prospective members that also can't post unless they pay first is going to be a tough pill to swallow for most.

But you at least have the benefit that the VOA has essentially erased all historical records of any wrongdoing...maybe they'll never find out.

Just remember: there will always be people like me that won't forget.

[viperguy69]

Sure, let's talk the Magazine. I think a 35% loss if there was no magazine is a very conservative figure that I can stand behind which is about 300 more members gone or about $58K for which $23K loss of regional dues going out to the clubs, but we have a magazine savings of $75K for the year. So the easy math says a net of $17K for the club. Now, let's do a second check... net income would be $120K and net expenses would be $105K so our database tells us we have a net gain of $15K without a magazine. But current membership has us at a $201K net income against $191K in expenses, so a $10K profit. Hmmm... So, you are saying that we should give up the magazine because it save us $5k per year.... using conservative figures.... well, I think we got that one right and the BoD was right on keeping the magazine!

You know anyone who would put together 200 pages of writing, editing, and art work for one year at $30k salary per year? Would love to talk to them and see what they have done for under $30K in the way of delivering a comparable product.

Please, I am waiting for all the editors of any car magazine to come rushing in!

We could not even buy an editor under any contract for $100K to give us a magazine like this. And then add the notion that they must be specialized in everything Viper as well as coordinate activities with 30+ other regional players.

So, $30K seems to be one heck of a bargain here. But please, share more of your insights as to how $30K a year makes someone a rich man and lines their pockets without a single benefit going back to membership? The magazine is provided at the pleasure of its members. If membership does not want the magazine they simply need to tell their regional president.

And that person you speak of does not sit on the VOA BoD nor does he have a vote in what the club does or what it has to say. The person you speak of has no ownership stake in the VOA as specifically outlined by 501c7 of the IRC.

However, enthusiast have benefited from membership dues! IRC 501c7 stipulates that a club cannot provided services to the general public.... and currently this club does, that the benefit/income from the general public cannot exceed 15% of services/gross proceeds. I think most enthusiast have stated, time and time again, that 90% of this forum's contributions come from enthusiast. Simple math 9,000 enthusiast divide by 1,100 members is 88% enthusiast benefit! The way I read it is that we are walking a tight line here on what is for member benefit and what is being provided to the general public at membership expense. But I am not a lawyer, just someone that has to read a lot about legal requirements and regulations to ensure compliance in my day job.

I am sure you are going to tell everyone about this is bunch of horse hockey, but please read what a 501c7 organization is, who it's supposed to benefit, how dues can be collected, how they can be used/distributed, to who's benefit they must be provided for, and what a violation of any of it could mean for the club... and please don't skip over the little words like "for the pleasure of its members" in that IRC!

[viperguy69]

My suggestion is to check substantive threads and determine if contributions made by those shown as enthusiasts are significant or not. Assume that if the site is read only the expertise and experience of those enthusiasts will be lost. Thus begins the downward spiral of reduced content, reduced screen time and reduced value for any advertisers (if any are expected). The new forum will slowly lose any significance and disappear. Other social pages (VOA or others) will become the go to source for feedback and technical inquiry. No real loss to the enthusiasts, but without a forum the attractiveness of VOA membership will decrease.

So when does this slow burn begin!

Agreed, I think many of those points were articulated at the meeting from my discussion with a few that attended.

However, one of the other key points that was articulated was a potential vendor coming on and reading all the negativity on the forums. Why would they want to take a chance of the same negativity coming back on their business if the forum is a lawless playfield that is out of control.

I would offer that those enthusiasts that have provided positive comments over the last year and are positive contributors on the forum should be given access - an exception. I bet I could find a couple dozen that fit that bill pretty easily. None of us want a dead forum, but all of us are tired of the negativity which is equally as toxic here. We want more Viper channels 24/7 and less of the other crap.

What kills us is the simple fact that no money = no club and no club = no website.

[Patentlaw]

Money needed for website.....minimal
Without Website........club does not exist

Why, then, is the website being placed "behind" the magazine in importance from the above post?

I just don't get it. Every other dang internet car club runs fine without any dues. People contribute time because they want to.


And by the way....Steve M has 4800 posts. Seems that enthusiast contributes tons. His points are right on. Could not have written it better myself.

Lastly.....and just from a personal standpoint, we all own a very "out there" car. Flamboyant. We are extroverts. Telling people who have owned the car for decades that they
are only an Enthusiast and not even worthy of a post......even to help a member with a technical issue that they have encountered before, hurts BOTH the member and the Enthusiast.

Why would you want to even consider doing something that hurts a member? And if you are saying that EVERY ENTHUSIAST CONTRIBUTES ZERO, but then magically contributes a great deal because they
put forth cash, then you are throwing the baby out with the bath water. Frankly, you are encouraging people not to join.

[Steve M]

And that person you speak of does not sit on the VOA BoD nor does he have a vote in what the club does or what it has to say. The person you speak of has no ownership stake in the VOA as specifically outlined by 501c7 of the IRC.

A person does not have to sit on the VOA BoD nor have a vote to have influence over what the club does.

However, enthusiast have benefited from membership dues! IRC 501c7 stipulates that a club cannot provided services to the general public.... and currently this club does, that the benefit/income from the general public cannot exceed 15% of services/gross proceeds. I think most enthusiast have stated, time and time again, that 90% of this forum's contributions come from enthusiast. Simple math 9,000 enthusiast divide by 1,100 members is 88% enthusiast benefit! The way I read it is that we are walking a tight line here on what is for member benefit and what is being provided to the general public at membership expense. But I am not a lawyer, just someone that has to read a lot about legal requirements and regulations to ensure compliance in my day job.

I am sure you are going to tell everyone about this is bunch of horse hockey, but please read what a 501c7 organization is, who it's supposed to benefit, how dues can be collected, how they can be used/distributed, to who's benefit they must be provided for, and what a violation of any of it could mean for the club... and please don't skip over the little words like "for the pleasure of its members" in that IRC!

These mental gymnastics deserve a gold medal.

What keeps people coming back to the forums?

Content.

Who provides said content?

You certainly have, but there are many enthusiasts that have as well.

This benefits the entire Viper community, paid members included. How is that not a desirable thing? The Viper community is more than a magazine. That's always been my point, but you, and others like you, rush to defend the club's largest expense every single time like it can't possibly go on without it. Every. Single. Time.

It tells me everything I need to know about you, and about the VOA BoD.

All we can do now is wait and see who is right.

[GTS Dean]

QUALITY CONTENT PROVIDERS. Who are they? What is it that the VOA risks losing by making such an apparently bone-headed decision?

Steve is absolutely right and the BOD is absolutely wrong about this call.

However, one of the other key points that was articulated was a potential vendor coming on and reading all the negativity on the forums. Why would they want to take a chance of the same negativity coming back on their business if the forum is a lawless playfield that is out of control. None of us want a dead forum, but all of us are tired of the negativity which is equally as toxic here. We want more Viper channels 24/7 and less of the other crap.

I'm not seeing this toxicity you speak of. Perhaps that's due to the fine work of the Mods and Admins behind the scenes - but without some examples to go by, I think it is BS.

[Fatboy 18]

What happens to all the how to guides? And picture threads? What about private meaasges to current users?

[13COBRA]

If we just cut the magazine, like some suggested, we would have been by far worst off. Over 65% of the clubs members want the Magazine because they are subscribers. So, that knee jerk reaction could have cost us at least 35% of our membership! To get a hardcopy magazine, you pay for a hard copy magazine - it was established as a subscription service in 2022.

So, the BoD has their hands firmly on the controls and we did not make all the irrational decisions to run the ship aground. It's amazing to the BoD of the contempt that enthusiast have for the club but demand this forum stay open despite their harsh comments. I was not at the meeting when this topic came up for discussion nor how the decision was voted on or made. The National leadership is not the decision maker on this topic as you have to convince the majority of the VOA BoD. The enthusiast position is not winning hearts and minds with all these attacks over the last year; many of the regional presidents contributing countless, and thankless, hours keeping this club and their regions from imploding in 2022.

So, maybe the concern of the BoD is that membership does not use the forum out of concern of being ridiculed and heckled in the current open forum environment. Maybe the thought is that if the forum comments are left to only members then maybe they will use the forum more openly as a membership benefit since they pay for this website - an idea that has yet to be tested for the VOA.

The BoD never said that this decision was firm, fixed, and not open for discussion or further debate.

65% of membership may receive the magazine, but 65% of the membership don't require a magazine to be a member. I literally received mine, and shipped them to whomever want them on my dime. Never even opened it.

Contempt? I think you're missing that the vast majority of Enthusiasts who are outspoken about these issues, were paying members. Why weren't you at that meeting? Are those meeting minutes available, or is there a video of it? I would be very interested to see how it came about, as a paying member at the time, I think I have the right to ask for that.

I sure hope you're not reading any of my comments as heckling...asking question, criticizing, etc...sure, but heckling, no.

Lol... and my point is affirmed!

I sure hope you can look back at this post and realize you should hold yourself to a hire standard than making comments like this.

well, I think we got that one right and the BoD was right on keeping the magazine!

You know anyone who would put together 200 pages of writing, editing, and art work for one year at $30k salary per year? Would love to talk to them and see what they have done for under $30K in the way of delivering a comparable product.

Please, I am waiting for all the editors of any car magazine to come rushing in!

We could not even buy and editor for under any contract for $100K to give us a magazine like this. An then add the notion that they must be specialized in everything Viper as well as coordinate activities with 30+ other regional players.

So, $30K seems to be one heck of a bargain here. But please, share more of your insights as to how $30K a year makes someone a rich man and lines their pockets without a single benefit going back to membership? The magazine is provided at the pleasure of its members. If membership does not want the magazine they simply need to tell their regional president.

And that person you speak of does not sit on the VOA BoD nor does he have a vote in what the club does or what it has to say. The person you speak of has no ownership stake in the VOA as specifically outlined by 501c7 of the IRC.

However, enthusiast have benefited from membership dues! IRC 501c7 stipulates that a club cannot provided services to the general public.... and currently this club does, that the benefit/income from the general public cannot exceed 15% of services/gross proceeds. I think most enthusiast have stated, time and time again, that 90% of this forum's contributions come from enthusiast. Simple math 9,000 enthusiast divide by 1,100 members is 88% enthusiast benefit! The way I read it is that we are walking a tight line here on what is for member benefit and what is being provided to the general public at membership expense. But I am not a lawyer, just someone that has to read a lot about legal requirements and regulations to ensure compliance in my day job.

I am sure you are going to tell everyone about this is bunch of horse hockey, but please read what a 501c7 organization is, who it's supposed to benefit, how dues can be collected, how they can be used/distributed, to who's benefit they must be provided for, and what a violation of any of it could mean for the club... and please don't skip over the little words like "for the pleasure of its members" in that IRC!

You're really reaching now, but so be it. I've never met you in person, nor spoken to you on the phone...but I can tell you after reading through this above passage that we probably wouldn't get along. I'm sure you didn't mean to come across as condescending, rude and borderline bully-ish, but you did.

What does a 501c7 say about taking out a loan without majority consent of contributing members? Does it mention anything about keeping the loan a secret from membership?

Agreed, I think many of those points were articulated at the meeting from my discussion with a few that attended.

However, one of the other key points that was articulated was a potential vendor coming on and reading all the negativity on the forums. Why would they want to take a chance of the same negativity coming back on their business if the forum is a lawless playfield that is out of control.

I would offer that those enthusiasts that have provided positive comments over the last year and are positive contributors on the forum should be given access - an exception. I bet I could find a couple dozen that fit that bill pretty easily. None of us want a dead forum, but all of us are tired of the negativity which is equally as toxic here. We want more Viper channels 24/7 and less of the other crap.

What kills us is the simple fact that no money = no club and no club = no website.

What negativity are you referencing?

I really hope you're not referencing the posts that are criticizing how the association is being operated. If you are, you think it's a better idea to hide that from potential vendors?

I guess really, I just would like to know how you define positive and negative. In my opinion, I've posted tons of content that people have utilized for their gains, I've received tons of information and knowledge from others doing the same. I have questions the VOA for almost two years now. So am I part of the problem, to you? Would I be on you'd make an exception for? Or would you rather have a bunch of Enthusiasts who don't question moves that you, or the BoD make? Sounds like a few foreign governments...

[ViperSRT]

Viperguy69 your last post clearly went off the deep end. Up until then you had shown some level of decorum but WTF!

There may be a number of people who do not support the magazine but still have a membership. Count me in that number. Stating without any real evidence that a large portion of Mamba members would leave the club entirely if not for the magazine is pure folly. Many of those people are paying the Mamba fee in order to show support for the club. Very doubtful their support would wane due to the lack of a magazine. I believe a newsletter, like that produced by many of the regions using volunteers, would suffice and would eliminate all the political garbage associated with the current magazine. I am also certain that members would contribute articles for such a newsletter without the need for "field" reporting or super duper photos, that are only needed for a magazine centerfold.

But your (not the BoD, but rather YOUR based on your diatribe above) negativism toward enthusiasts is incredible. If you choose exclusivity in how the VOA works, you will be cutting the clubs throat. The majority of those who currently contribute will stop. Many who disagree with your exclusivity will stop. And you will be left with a whole lot of non contributors. Good luck in your endeavor.

I have been on the edge for the last few years regarding being a member and this would be the final nail in the coffin. I dropped membership in the Michigan chapter because the politics and favoritism was unbearable and was impacting me directly. [as a side note your magazine should do a number on the current President of said club and how he beat the club rules that limited time as President - quitting the position for a short period and then essentially reappointing himself running unapposed (certainly by backdoor leverage) and is now a significant player in National BoD politics].

[viperguy69]

Why weren't you at that meeting? Are those meeting minutes available, or is there a video of it? I would be very interested to see how it came about, as a paying member at the time, I think I have the right to ask for that.

I was on vacation with the family out of country, and this was an Operations meeting... not recorded and there are no summary or meeting minutes taken.

What does a 501c7 say about taking out a loan without majority consent of contributing members?

I was not there when that decision was made. I would have made this a BoD decision, but neither the current president nor myself made that decision - easy for me say but I feel like a backseat quarterback.

Does it mention anything about keeping the loan a secret from membership?

Loan was not kept secret from the membership, it was briefed out to BoD in October 2021, as I understand it. I know my region gave us the information at the next regional meeting in November 2021, if you did not get the information, I cannot help you with that issue.

Now if you are saying it was kept secret when the application was taken out, then I would agree. But I know not a dime of the initial loan was distributed until after the BoD was made aware a loan was taken out under the VOA. They did the first distribution in December 2021 if I remember correctly.

[13COBRA]

[B]Now if you are saying it was kept secret when the application was taken out, then I would agree. [/B

Exactly what I'm saying. When it became an issue is when it should've came to light.

Also, you skipped a lot of key points.

[Voice of Reason]

Forum usage across the internet has been on the decline for a decade because people have transitioned to other media. This is actually the last forum I still visit, I get everything else I need, just like everyone else in the world, from Facebook, Instagram, etc. Putting a paywall on posting will absolutely 100% without a doubt kill the new forum. And once people stop visiting, either because they can’t post or because there’s no new content to read, they won’t come back because it won’t be in their daily routine of sites to visit.

[GTS Dean]

It appears pretty evident to me that the people who made the decisions they did to can the traditional VOA Forum have between little, and NO presence here. I don't know whose panties are in such a wad about Enthusiasts participating, but they seem to have carried the message of upheaval and anarchy to the rest Board, who haven't bothered to investigate this themselves.

Several of the Mods have been working for the various Viper Forums for many years - even DECADES - and know EXACTLY what has been going on - or not. I doubt seriously that the BOD has given the Mods' comments due consideration. If having to pay to manage multiple servers and constantly implement code patches across them is a huge issue, then I'll believe that much more readily than a few elitist types who have unusually thin skin.

[braunstein82]

There were 3 basic options for enthusiast going forward. No access to the forum, read only, full access. There were board members supporting each one of them. I think if there wasn't some much rude ridicule from enthusiast so early in the recovery process. I think it would have gone different. I personally think enthusiast have valuable info to offer. I'm also one who thinks everything should be open to be seen by everyone and communication is more legitimate when done publicly and not one on one. I go thru this same agruement with my union. I also agree the main forum moderators shouldnt be BOD members. That topic has not been thoroughly discussed or voted on yet but is coming up. So know there are BOD members fighting some of your same points. But when people keep insulting them, they aren't gonna keep doing it. I'm not closed minded from understanding each person's point. However the process has been done the proper way and I want to ensure everyone that. So they can stop thinking it's a dictatorship of only 4 people. Not all decisions will be the right ones, but at least we are doing the process properly. When you see an issue. Bring it up, say what you think is best to resolve it and hope for the best. Talking trash doesn't help at all. I also agree that forum use has greatly declined, most use social media, so how important of an issue really is it.

[13COBRA]

There were 3 basic options for enthusiast going forward. No access to the forum, read only, full access. There were board members supporting each one of them. I think if there wasn't some much rude ridicule from enthusiast so early in the recovery process. I think it would have gone different. I personally think enthusiast have valuable info to offer. I'm also one who thinks everything should be open to be seen by everyone and communication is more legitimate when done publicly and not one on one. I go thru this same agruement with my union. I also agree the main forum moderators shouldnt be BOD members. That topic has not been thoroughly discussed or voted on yet but is coming up. So know there are BOD members fighting some of your same points. But when people keep insulting them, they aren't gonna keep doing it. I'm not closed minded from understanding each person's point. However the process has been done the proper way and I want to ensure everyone that. So they can stop thinking it's a dictatorship of only 4 people. Not all decisions will be the right ones, but at least we are doing the process properly. When you see an issue. Bring it up, say what you think is best to resolve it and hope for the best. Talking trash doesn't help at all. I also agree that forum use has greatly declined, most use social media, so how important of an issue really is it.

"Hope for the best."

Yep. We're to that point.

After speaking with Wes for almost an hour yesterday and agreeing on a lot more topics than we have in these two threads I'm hopeful that something positive will be coming out soon. Until, I'll hope for the best.

This forum is much more important than Facebook. If you don't think so, you may be part of the problem and not the solution.

[Patentlaw]

It is my job to be persuasive. I did a rough numerical analysis of the showing threads on page 1 of this forum. Guess what? (without the posts from the Enthusiasts on the subject at hand because that would tilt the results)

75 percent of the posts are by Enthusiasts.

You get rid of that......end of club. Bury it.

[braunstein82]

"Hope for the best."

Yep. We're to that point.

After speaking with Wes for almost an hour yesterday and agreeing on a lot more topics than we have in these two threads I'm hopeful that something positive will be coming out soon. Until, I'll hope for the best.

This forum is much more important than Facebook. If you don't think so, you may be part of the problem and not the solution.

Haha, you assume way to much by misdirecting my wording. Never did I say it wasn't important. I was clearly referring to the enthusiast read only situation. Ask any BOD member who has been most vocal in our meetings about keeping the forums open, saving the old forum and keeping enthusiast. I most definitely have and made several other BOD members mad doing it. Your constant derogatoriness is a problem and why most others voted for enthusiast to be read only. So your approach as others have done, has literally caused an issue you are complaining about. So where are you helping the solution? Complain, negative, insult, not offering respectful advise/opinion, not paying dues and being the direct cause of your own complaint. I tried to just explain and offer hope about resolve and that it's not just 4 people. Not make this about a singular person. But you obviously want to, and want to find a way to put someone down however you can. When you don't know and have no clear insight of what's really happening. Try asking instead of assuming or backhand insulting.

[braunstein82]

It is my job to be persuasive. I did a rough numerical analysis of the showing threads on page 1 of this forum. Guess what? (without the posts from the Enthusiasts on the subject at hand because that would tilt the results)

75 percent of the posts are by Enthusiasts.

You get rid of that......end of club. Bury it.

I feel mostly the same way. But know that at least the process was done properly and no one person is the direct cause since the new leadership structure. Not saying it was one person before neither. You must blame all the BOD members and partially all the members and enthusiast that didn't voice out or step up. Imagine if a few hundred members and enthusiast came to this post and said how they think the forum and enthusiast should be handled. That would do a lot. I respect everyone who voices their concerns respectfully and wish more would do it.

[NottaVette]

As silly as this may sound, there are a LOT of people who don't know how to navigate forums in general, myself being one of them. I think that one of my missions within my region will be to (a) become better educated on how to use this website effectively and (b) TEACH my members how to use this website more-so than social media. Regretfully, social media (I predominantly utilize FaceBook) seems to be an easier "tool" to use. However, it doesn't afford the higher level of exclusivity which I expect from this forum. Which means that events and information can't be as readily disseminated in a secure manner.

I can see the frustration by the "enthusiasts" of a read only access. And quite frankly, those that were paying members before may benefit from the proposed Legacy member status. There are a LOT of working parts going into salvaging this Association since it's recent exposure of turmoil. And the comment about "blindly renewing" may be 100% accurate. I can speak for myself in admitting that (a) I renewed as a Mamba member to get the magazine in hard copy (call me old fashioned), (b) I was renewing regardless of the turmoil because I believe it's going to be Viper owners like myself who will assist in keeping the VOA alive, (c) and even if I wasn't interested in the tangible magazine I would positively renew as a standard member. I view it as I'm paying extra as a Mamba member to have the magazine. If the BoD has calculated / budgeted the magazine expenses based on increased Mamba membership dues / intake, then that's a reasonable decision on their part. However, I too am (still) curious to actually SEE what the magazine costs and alleviate the suspicion that it's editor is sucking the VOA's funds to the point of bankruptcy.

Our membership should become better educated in the VOA history, recent events and future plans and should NOT be "censored" by moderators for the fear of negative publicity or sponsorship. Rudeness and attacks, vulgarities and discrimination (unless against G3's -JOKING-) are what the moderators should be monitoring and protecting the website from.

If I were on the BoD, I would have conflicting feelings about who "should" have access to this website. On one hand, I feel it SHOULD be an exclusive to membership benefit and that MIGHT encourage the paying members to participate more (after we become more familiar with how to post, search, respond, and interact on the website). But, as pointed out by other Viper owners who have contributed a lot to this website / forum / medium, it wouldn't be fair to shut them out now NOR discourage prospective members or possible sponsors from being able to interact with the VOA.

It obvious that many people speaking above have an extensive background with the VOA, have made a lot of efforts to help their fellow Viper owners and DO have enthusiasm for preserving a unity for the limited cars. The frustration IS palpable though. I must admit that reading some of the comments by the few names I recognize and "admire" (mostly because of this community and their contributions within it), I can understand why National might respond bluntly. I'm not suggesting that things were all fine and dandy before covid or NVE4, but without forgetting our past can we just agree that we need to do something to preserve the VOA and trust that our current National board and the BoD and the Regional Presidents are trying to recover and excel past this?

In closing, I have hope and believe that the VOA is going to recover from the past two years of dismay. I encourage all participants of the VOA forum to join or renew their memberships now and in the future. I'm remaining confident and enthusiastic that our participation as Viper owners in a unified group will be the main preservation of these American cars' survival (amidst the occasional "snake bite" accidents). I realize I've only been a member since 2018...... I probably don't know "the half of it" in regards to VCA/VOA history...... but in my short time, I've been learning. I volunteered as secretary of my region's board, now proudly our region's VP and look forward to becoming it's president at some point.

I commend National for their efforts to restore faith in the VOA.

[braunstein82]

As silly as this may sound, there are a LOT of people who don't know how to navigate forums in general, myself being one of them. I think that one of my missions within my region will be to (a) become better educated on how to use this website effectively and (b) TEACH my members how to use this website more-so than social media. Regretfully, social media (I predominantly utilize FaceBook) seems to be an easier "tool" to use. However, it doesn't afford the higher level of exclusivity which I expect from this forum. Which means that events and information can't be as readily disseminated in a secure manner.

I can see the frustration by the "enthusiasts" of a read only access. And quite frankly, those that were paying members before may benefit from the proposed Legacy member status. There are a LOT of working parts going into salvaging this Association since it's recent exposure of turmoil. And the comment about "blindly renewing" may be 100% accurate. I can speak for myself in admitting that (a) I renewed as a Mamba member to get the magazine in hard copy (call me old fashioned), (b) I was renewing regardless of the turmoil because I believe it's going to be Viper owners like myself who will assist in keeping the VOA alive, (c) and even if I wasn't interested in the tangible magazine I would positively renew as a standard member. I view it as I'm paying extra as a Mamba member to have the magazine. If the BoD has calculated / budgeted the magazine expenses based on increased Mamba membership dues / intake, then that's a reasonable decision on their part. However, I too am (still) curious to actually SEE what the magazine costs and alleviate the suspicion that it's editor is sucking the VOA's funds to the point of bankruptcy.

Our membership should become better educated in the VOA history, recent events and future plans and should NOT be "censored" by moderators for the fear of negative publicity or sponsorship. Rudeness and attacks, vulgarities and discrimination (unless against G3's -JOKING-) are what the moderators should be monitoring and protecting the website from.

If I were on the BoD, I would have conflicting feelings about who "should" have access to this website. On one hand, I feel it SHOULD be an exclusive to membership benefit and that MIGHT encourage the paying members to participate more (after we become more familiar with how to post, search, respond, and interact on the website). But, as pointed out by other Viper owners who have contributed a lot to this website / forum / medium, it wouldn't be fair to shut them out now NOR discourage prospective members or possible sponsors from being able to interact with the VOA.

It obvious that many people speaking above have an extensive background with the VOA, have made a lot of efforts to help their fellow Viper owners and DO have enthusiasm for preserving a unity for the limited cars. The frustration IS palpable though. I must admit that reading some of the comments by the few names I recognize and "admire" (mostly because of this community and their contributions within it), I can understand why National might respond bluntly. I'm not suggesting that things were all fine and dandy before covid or NVE4, but without forgetting our past can we just agree that we need to do something to preserve the VOA and trust that our current National board and the BoD and the Regional Presidents are trying to recover and excel past this?

In closing, I have hope and believe that the VOA is going to recover from the past two years of dismay. I encourage all participants of the VOA forum to join or renew their memberships now and in the future. I'm remaining confident and enthusiastic that our participation as Viper owners in a unified group will be the main preservation of these American cars' survival (amidst the occasional "snake bite" accidents). I realize I've only been a member since 2018...... I probably don't know "the half of it" in regards to VCA/VOA history...... but in my short time, I've been learning. I volunteered as secretary of my region's board, now proudly our region's VP and look forward to becoming it's president at some point.

I commend National for their efforts to restore faith in the VOA.

Well said. The new cost of the magazine has been posted with the financials. I'm can't remember where but your prez could possibly forward the email they got to you.

[daveg]

.....And the comment about "blindly renewing" may be 100% accurate. I can speak for myself in admitting that

I guess I was one of the fortunate (was Mamba Member now Enthusiast) who learned what was going on from here. Mark (Fatboy) was kind enough to send me information. I heard someone asked a pointed question to past leadership and they shrugged it off and deliberately chose to say nothing to its members regarding what was going on. For me, not renewing this year was a fraction to do with Regional / the loan.

[NottaVette]

Well said. The new cost of the magazine has been posted with the financials. I'm can't remember where but your prez could possibly forward the email they got to you.

Thank you Matt. You hit the nail on the head..... if I was better acquainted with the forum, I could probably find that info myself. I have a hard enough time trying to find the tutorial on how to search......... LOL

[13COBRA]

Haha, you assume way to much by misdirecting my wording. Never did I say it wasn't important. I was clearly referring to the enthusiast read only situation. Ask any BOD member who has been most vocal in our meetings about keeping the forums open, saving the old forum and keeping enthusiast. I most definitely have and made several other BOD members mad doing it. Your constant derogatoriness is a problem and why most others voted for enthusiast to be read only. So your approach as others have done, has literally caused an issue you are complaining about. So where are you helping the solution? Complain, negative, insult, not offering respectful advise/opinion, not paying dues and being the direct cause of your own complaint. I tried to just explain and offer hope about resolve and that it's not just 4 people. Not make this about a singular person. But you obviously want to, and want to find a way to put someone down however you can. When you don't know and have no clear insight of what's really happening. Try asking instead of assuming or backhand insulting.

You implied it wasn't important when you said:

I also agree that forum use has greatly declined, most use social media, so how important of an issue really is it.

Please show me where I was constantly derogatory.

This started after I've asked the same questions multiple times without answers. So in your last sentence, I'm unsure what you mean...because this all started with questions.

I don't feel like anyone who doesn't currently pay for Membership or Mamba Membership isn't doing it because of the money. What I'm hearing is it's about principle.

I'm not making anything about an individual person. Wes reached out to me by a phone call. So yes. I mentioned speaking to Wes. Take a step back from the keyboard and take a deep breath. My last post was saying I was hoping for the best and was looking forward to things to come.