my NA Project 800 hp 7000 rpm roadster

[Aevus]

I see the glass half full simply because there is good reasons for that.

The camshaft is tuneable, which is a big deal. It's actually the most positive thing of that journey: the camshaft works well.

Then, there is no sign of valve float. That's the second good news. The whole valvetrain, despite keeping the hydraulic lifters... it works.
It was a big concern because If I hit valve float, I'm f**ked. Also means that Ti valves or shaft mount rocker are not needed at this point (and probably ever).

Finally, the 3rd good news is the ported heads. I see no sign whatsover that my heads are maxed out.

So that's 3 very good news, on things that could've gone south real bad.

[13COBRA]

You won't be anywhere near 800bhp though.

[Aevus]

and to continue on the stock vs ported heads topic:

Mike's blue '06 did 583 whp with Roe's cam (milder than mine) and even at roughly the same RPM... with the stock heads (and headers!).

Stock heads flow numbers here:
http://www.speedstore.ca/VP3_flow_sheet.html

So if I take the same averaging formula to compare, stock heads are flowing 1,750 cfm total all cylinders on the exhaust side and exactly 2,000 cfm on the intake side.

Can't wait to see the flowing numbers on the intake manifold, because so far I don't see the heads being the limiting factor here. Ported heads are probably helping the average tq/hp but peak? I don't think so.

[Aevus]

You won't be anywhere near 800bhp though.

you're probably right.

The way I see it 750-770bhp is the maximum possible


Let's say I put back my 3.07 gears (not doing that for real of course), I probably could run 610whp right now (pump gas only) if not more...

then, I remove the cats, that's most likely 5whp extra minimum

and I can wish for 20whp minimum with TB/ported manifold

That's 635 whp. I just wish that peak power will be @ 6,500 rpm +

Then, cam timing could be moved 4-6 deg and I could run a E45 tune if I ever want to push that far

[Aevus]

Just for fun, that's the best dyno run so far (pump gas tune)

if it follows the same trajectory, with the bottleneck(s) removed, I should get 640whp @ 6,600 rpm or so.

[13COBRA]

Can I put a 45 degree angle on my power curves if I just increase the rpms? Asking for a friend.

I might build one and shoot for 10,000 rpms. That would HAVE to get me close to that 900rwhp mark.

[Aevus]

The next mod on the list will be the intake manifold, either just ported or modified, Wilson Manifolds in Florida can do both:

https://www.wilsonmanifolds.com/pages/manifold-porting

You can either send in your intake manifold (new or used), or we can help pick out the ideal intake manifold for your application. We do NOT manufacture cast intake manifolds, so we utilize intake manifolds from other companies and port/modify them so that they become custom manifolds.

Intermediate Port with Gasket Match

Heads are preferred for this service to ensure proper fitment but not necessary.

This service is for Street / Strip / Race cars of all types.

We weld and Customize the Plenum to your engine specifications, adjust the Plenum volume, Port the roof lines, Lengthen or shorten the runners as needed. Shape and reshape the divider walls as needed, adjust the taper in the runners to improve cylinder to cylinder proper fuel distribution. Manifold is ported with a gasket match or send us your heads and we will match to the heads.

We have seen up to 15-35HP Gains on Average

[Aevus]

Can I put a 45 degree angle on my power curves if I just increase the rpms? Asking for a friend.

I might build one and shoot for 10,000 rpms. That would HAVE to get me close to that 900rwhp mark.

hahaha!

Unfortunately sir, you can't.

Cuz you'll run into valve float.

edit: joke aside, have you seen the guy who experiments with even more passion than me, spinning an LS engine at 11,000 rpm


https://www.thedrive.com/news/31352/...ear-to-believe


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2muarRkMiZQ

[Aevus]

But yeah, let's say you're crazy and budget-unlimited you probably can spin a 8.3/8.4 (destroked 7.6 already been done) close to 8,000rpm but that would require an aftermarket crank and going solid. Not to mention full custom manifold + headers/exhaust and a much lighter/stiffer valvetrain than I have...

For my project, all I need is to find the air flow bottleneck, fix it and adjust the cam timing as needed.

Right there on the dyno graph above, I could move up 300 rpm the torque curve by simply retarding the cam 6 degrees. Not doing it yet because I need to fix the air flow first.

[13COBRA]

Hmm.

So custom intake next?

[Aevus]

PLOT TWIST:

Just got the right side exhaust clogged by the cat, who apparently is not happy with all these changes...



No, Nick. Looks like next is catless and dyno rerun.

[heath1225]

and to continue on the stock vs ported heads topic:

Mike's blue '06 did 583 whp with Roe's cam (milder than mine) and even at roughly the same RPM... with the stock heads (and headers!).

Stock heads flow numbers here:
http://www.speedstore.ca/VP3_flow_sheet.html

So if I take the same averaging formula to compare, stock heads are flowing 1,750 cfm total all cylinders on the exhaust side and exactly 2,000 cfm on the intake side.

Can't wait to see the flowing numbers on the intake manifold, because so far I don't see the heads being the limiting factor here. Ported heads are probably helping the average tq/hp but peak? I don't think so.

Every dyno is different and that number may have been the result of a happy dyno.

[Aevus]

Every dyno is different and that number may have been the result of a happy dyno.

True.

Already booked my next dyno run, on the same dyno of course.

Catless + E30 and/or E45 tune

[Aevus]

a lot is going on...

- Single blade TB is not available anywhere
- Calvo motorsports said the bottleneck will be the heads (he doesnt know mine are ported though) and not the TB/manifold.
- My engine builder is positive that stock gen 3 manifold is the bottleneck at this point.
- Whole new exhaust in production right now: catless and longer 42'' can with straight trough perforated tube, same 3'' diameter.

So the whole exhaust/cat variable will be removed. All is left now is the throttle body, the manifold and the heads.

I found many formulas on the web to calculate the max potential with the heads and rockers ratio I have at the moment, and they're all higher than my dyno results. In the unlikely event that my heads are maxed out, I'll have to change the rockers for 1.8 ratio or so. Not something I'll do this summer. Especially since the shaft mount rockers was to stabilize the valvetrain... a valvetrain that is already not used to his full potential.

Throttle body is something I can play with but it goes with the intake manifold. And there is no cheap or easy solution for the manifold. Maybe Wilson Manifold in Florida will be able to help, or maybe I'll explore the 3D printing route (I do industrial design for a living, btw) as many intake projects were done that way. But that's a long shot project obviously, I have to 3D scan the stock one, then redesign what is needed and get it printed with some exotic (and costly) material that is used in aerospace that can withstand heat and chemical, such as Ultem 1010 if you're familiar with all that.

So the next dyno, catless and ethanol, will probably be the last for a long time.

[Aevus]

Bytheway, I found some CFM numbers on stock cats, high-flow and cat delete.... but for an Aston Martin V8 Vantage

https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...cell-cats.html

Still very interesting to see such limitation. Can't wait to dyno catless

[Aevus]

Pretty much what I might do:

https://youtu.be/z5RrByyDWM0?t=467

unless the stock TB+manifold are really not maxed out, I should easily gain 25-30whp right there, if not more by making the runners shorter.

[Aevus]

They have really nice toys for the the LS platform, uh?

https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/16...er-system/amp/

But that confirms I'm on the right track. Short runners on the intake is the way to go for my project, I just need to calculate what is needed compared to stock and I'll bump the peak HP instantly, without even playing with cam timing which is a very good news.

Look at the dyno graph, it moves the peak by 600-700rpm. And that's with a mild 10.5 deg overlap camshaft..

they're also a video with a '13 Camaro and it moves 300rpm as well, just between the full and mid runners (probably cam or valvetrain limited)

You just need to find the sweetspot, where you don't sacrifice too much torque for the HP gain. The good news is I can sacrifice a lot of torque!

[Aevus]

Nailed down the bottleneck with 99% certainty; intake manifold.


Flawed design from the start. Engine can't breath. Hood clearance issue kinda thing...


Got some quotations:

Custom/heavily modified manifold = minimum 4,000-5,000$

3D-printed new design in ULTEM 1010 material = 7,000-9,000$ (+ cost of 3D scan, new design, etc..)

So lots of time and money and sure a big challenge to make it work properly.


The good news is it may very well reward 100 whp (and my 7,000 rpm target).


The 3D printing route looks fun. Winter project stuff but fun.

Also could drop the weight from aluminum stock 25.2 lbs to around 13 lbs even with 15-20% extra plenum volume and less heat. That Ultem 1010 material looks so nice I could even consider a cut-out in my hood to fit a bigger manifold

[13COBRA]

Wouldn't it be more beneficial to swap to a hybrid model and go with the Gen V intake?

[Aevus]

Wouldn't it be more beneficial to swap to a hybrid model and go with the Gen V intake?

From what I heard, even the Gen 4 and 5 are intake limited.

We're talking N/A of course, if it's forced induction that's another story.

also heard that 720 whp N/A was made using GTS-R intake manifold, 8.3/8.4 liters, spinning 7,200 rpm

[Aevus]

Bottomline, I'm probably 10,000$ and 1 year away of my target motor. But at least, I know what to do.

I believe the correct and smart way to proceed would be to print a nylon or PLA (cheaper material) prototype, test it on a flow bench, make sure the dimensions fits with everything, then print the final part in the (very expensive) material.

While at it, I sure would change the design for a more common 4 bolts 102/105mm high-CFM throttle body.

[J TNT]

Hoping you have good success ! Looking forward to your results.

[Aevus]

Thanks J TNT, will slowly work on that.

Meanwhile, I'll go back to the suspension/alignment/tires this summer. Didnt yet install my RT660 or play my new Penske double's adjustements and I sure need my car re-aligned.

That car is like a puppy, it needs a lot of attention

[Aevus]

Exhaust topic:

Will also have, for few days, asymetric exhaust; I had the right side redone catless, with longer 42'' muffler canister. Before doing driver's side, I want to hear how loud it is catless.
Will also test at the same time how asymetrical sounds. So far, I tested same lenght/diameter but with packing on 1 side and without on the other side. Sounds nice, doesnt affect the air flow, but it's not day and night. Just a bit muffled on one side, with a similar pitch.

In that video, they explained a little better what it takes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTnWFH3wv6M

Since I won't drive the car catless just one side I'll update either right or left side, but if I can keep the same air flow, and if asymetrical exhaust sounds good, I'll try that.

[pokeyl]

Cat-less BB header and MOPAR race exhaust sounds like an explosion when it pops during start. After that not to bad.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2L5TDR9fxk