E85 gas on Viper a good idea or not

[Aevus]

Starting a new thread on the E85 topic, because it could be interesting for some...

Not sure how good the rear pump is on gen 3 (I’m sure yours is upgraded already), but you have a fairly large injector already and at your power level I bet e50 or higher be worth 30rwhp…

Where I’m located e85 is available at most stations, roughly 2.30 a gallon right now. It’s winter Blend (68-70%) year round for us, which I happen to like since I know it’s predictable and I can set the stoich ratio in the tune accordingly and it saves me a little fuel on the fuel system side.

My plan for my car is to change injectors only, keep stock pump an run pump e85

T/A KID is planning it for his Gen5, and I might be interested too for my Gen3 since I already have 10.9 CR and 69# injectors....

But what are the Pros and Cons of doing that, on a Viper specifically?


Great info there
https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/15...about-e85/amp/

E85 Benefits

More Potential Power: we’ll start with the good stuff first—E85 has an octane rating of 100 to 105, which is 9 to 14 points higher than the 91 octane premium fuel found in many stations. E85 can support lots of boost for forced-induction engines, and crazy high compression ratios in N/A applications. Always a good thing.

Better Cooling: ethanol absorbs over twice as much heat during combustion as gasoline does, which makes it a much more efficient cooling agent than gas.

Cleaner Burning: engines burning ethanol leave fewer carbon deposits on valves and pistons. The exhaust actually smells better, too.

Smoother Power Delivery: one oft-heard comment from E85 consumers is, “Wow, the car just drives so smoothly.” It also can idle better too.

Reports of Your Fuel System’s Demise Are Greatly Exaggerated: GM’s official line is “Don’t use E85 in your Corvette.” However, many enthusiasts who’ve done long-term E85 testing have reported few to no fuel system issues on straight E85. Will every fuel system part last 200,000 miles on the ’shine? Probably not. But it won’t last that long on gas either.

E85 Drawbacks

Moisture Can Cause Problems: alcohol is hygroscopic, meaning it readily absorbs moisture—so E85 introduces more water into your fuel system. This isn’t a huge problem in modern fuel systems, but older Vettes with stock fuel systems will see accelerated corrosion unless it is upgraded.

Slight Fuel Economy Losses: E85 has roughly a third less energy than gasoline, which means that it takes more E85 to equal gas’ power. Now, GM’s factory Flex Fuel vehicles got a lot of bad press by getting way lower mileage compared to gasoline. However, a Corvette with aftermarket E85 ECM tuning can return mpg ratings within spitting distances of its factory gas ratings.

Fewer Places to Fill Up: Unless you live in the Midwest, finding E85 can be challenging, especially if you’re on a road trip in unfamiliar territory. Those of you who keep your Vettes close to home and have a few E85 pumps nearby should be fine. And C6-up owners can buy flex-fuel sensors that work with the ECM to let you switch between gas and E85.

Possible Lower Resale Value: misinformation is a powerful tool. The same people who think running ethanol will destroy your car, may very well be your future potential buyers. And as such, they may eye an E85-converted Corvette as a car this close to self-destructing, which could kill your sale outright or possibly lower its value.

Conversion Costs: late-model Corvettes won’t need much dough to convert—especially if your car still has the factory tune and you were planning on getting it modded and tuned anyway. But C4 and older Vettes will need a fuel system on top of the other mods, so keep that in mind. Speaking of converting…

But anyone here did it for the Viper?

[Aevus]

The exhaust actually smells better, too.

Smells popCORN !

[Aevus]

https://www.motortrend.com/news/2023...ane-explainer/

900hp to 1025hp on the new Demon using E85...

14% increase that's not bad at all.

[efnfast]

fuck ethanol - i hate that bullshit ... corrosive, phase separates quickly when exposed to moisture, death of carbeurateurs and aluminum fuel tanks. I have to store dozen of cans of VP racing fuel since you can no longer buy pure gas at the gas stations these days.

If you're running big boost and not storing the fuel for more than a few weeks it isn't such an issue, but fuck ethanol.

[T/A KID]

I’ve had e85 in fuel tanks for over a year and fires up and runs no problem….

[efnfast]

I’ve had e85 in fuel tanks for over a year and fires up and runs no problem….

it probably was corrosive to the insides of your fuel setup.

i've seen quite a few instances where people leave e85 sitting and sure it does start and run, but then you look inside the fuel tank and it's like 'nope nope nope'

[T/A KID]

Been using the stuff for 15 years… wish I could just run e85 on everything… of course the calibration needs to be setup properly for it…
I’ve always heard these horror stories, but I’ve literally never had any issues. Tune quite a few cars as well, no complaints from e85 eating fuel lines or etc

[Arizona Vipers]

There's no reason to run it in a naturally aspirated car IMO. If it made more power, I'd be running it on my 830whp Prefix motor. Adding ethanol would add a lot of weight for me as well. More pumps, more lines, and of course more fuel in the tank for each session. We are running it in the new Turbo time attack build obviously though....

[T/A KID]

There's no reason to run it in a naturally aspirated car IMO. If it made more power, I'd be running it on my 830whp Prefix motor. Adding ethanol would add a lot of weight for me as well. More pumps, more lines, and of course more fuel in the tank for each session. We are running it in the new Turbo time attack build obviously though....

That’s crazy!!! Your car would 100% make more power on E…
How long does a session last? If you raced for 3 hours you may have to make one more pit stop for fuel… fuel lines be fine if atleast 8an at your power level and fuel pump isn’t made of lead lol.

What’s the compression of your prefix motor??

Recently did a 427 c6 z06 that made 588rwhp on 93 octane and then e70 made 615rwhp

[Aevus]

fuck ethanol - i hate that bullshit ... corrosive, phase separates quickly when exposed to moisture, death of carbeurateurs and aluminum fuel tanks. I have to store dozen of cans of VP racing fuel since you can no longer buy pure gas at the gas stations these days.

If you're running big boost and not storing the fuel for more than a few weeks it isn't such an issue, but fuck ethanol.

but let's take the Demon that was built to run E85, what it takes to make it reliable?

[chiromikey]

That’s crazy!!! Your car would 100% make more power on E…
How long does a session last? If you raced for 3 hours you may have to make one more pit stop for fuel… fuel lines be fine if atleast 8an at your power level and fuel pump isn’t made of lead lol.

What’s the compression of your prefix motor??

Recently did a 427 c6 z06 that made 588rwhp on 93 octane and then e70 made 615rwhp

I doubt it’s going to make more power on a NA car than race fuel…

[SRT_BluByU]

corn makes big power in forced induction ebcause of the side effect of lowering intake air and combustion temps.. big in forced induction.. much less effect in NA. AZ Viper is right.

[T/A KID]

I doubt it’s going to make more power on a NA car than race fuel…

That’s fair!!!
Initial topic was pump gas 91-93 vs e85…
I’ve tested turbo blue 103 vs e85 and e85 edged it out still in the power department.. never done a test with many of the gasoline race fuels to be honest.

I assume AZs viper is on some form of 105-110 octane fuel and if that’s the case then no e85 won’t show any measurable gain in my opinion..

[CNU_Physics]

I've always thought about this just for the extra bump in power. But when I'm getting 9-11 mpg on average, dropping down to 5mpg from E85 doesn't sound appealing.

[Arizona Vipers]

That’s fair!!!
Initial topic was pump gas 91-93 vs e85…
I’ve tested turbo blue 103 vs e85 and e85 edged it out still in the power department.. never done a test with many of the gasoline race fuels to be honest.

I assume AZs viper is on some form of 105-110 octane fuel and if that’s the case then no e85 won’t show any measurable gain in my opinion..

Ahh yeah I forgot to mention yes I'm running race fuel. Torco 118 or VP C16. Overkill for my 12.75 compression ratio, but it's hot at a lot of the events I do, especially here in Arizona.
The extra weight of the pumps, lines and the extra fuel I'd need to run is about 40 lbs which slows me down everywhere on track, braking, cornering etc. That being said, when I start taking two cars to events (Practice with the N/A car and do my hot lap in the turbo car) I'll probably convert the N/A car so I don't have to carry two different fuels in my trailer

[T/A KID]

Ahh yeah I forgot to mention yes I'm running race fuel. Torco 118 or VP C16. Overkill for my 12.75 compression ratio, but it's hot at a lot of the events I do, especially here in Arizona.
The extra weight of the pumps, lines and the extra fuel I'd need to run is about 40 lbs which slows me down everywhere on track, braking, cornering etc. That being said, when I start taking two cars to events (Practice with the N/A car and do my hot lap in the turbo car) I'll probably convert the N/A car so I don't have to carry two different fuels in my trailer

Yes with that fuel I don’t blame you, it’s great stuff…

[Fulltilt]

Any updates on the turbo build?

[Aevus]

I'm VERY surprised about the results here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryqyTPfNj1Q


they have tested basically everything, pump 87, 91 ... race 110, 116 octane gas, Methanol, Oxygenated gas en E85

Basically E85 is pretty good for HP gain! Beats the 110/116 octane hands down.

[T/A KID]

E85 is awesome… bar none better then pump gas..
I’m an LS guy and never heard an ls engine taking 29 degrees on 87 octane.. most don’t get that much even on 93 TBH..

[Aevus]

E85 is awesome… bar none better then pump gas..

seriously, the more I read about this, and everything, the less I understand why the f*** bozos at the governements (Europe and Canada especially) are pushing in our throats the EVs....

Wouldnt it make more sense, at least for a smooth transition to 100% electric somewhere around 2040 or whenenever it make sense, to just adopt HYBRID plug-ins using high CR turbocharged engines running on E85 ?!?

Imagine manufacturers developping dedicated E85 (not flexfuel) super efficient 14-15 CR, small turbocharged motors, combined with smaller, lighter and cheaper electric motors & battery combos....

but NO, these dogmatic bozos are looking for 100% electric or nothing. Which is a total non-sense.

[Aevus]

WOW

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_DQPLihXfo

all explained here

E20 !!

[Aevus]

I really have to try this for the dyno tune. Just need to get some E85 in Canada somehow

then i'll mix 1 gallon E85 per 3 gallon of pump 87 oct, for all the benefits and no downside:

https://youtu.be/6_DQPLihXfo?t=655

[Aevus]

Viper-gas-tank.jpg


I didn't know about those differences from year to year...


So for my '05 (70 liters capacity) I would need to mix 87 octane pump gas with 14-18 liters of pure ethanol or 17-21 liters of E85, in each fill.
If I understand the video correctly, that would mean:

- Will be able to tune the car as if it's 96-101 oct ''race'' fuel.
- Mixed with cheaper 87 oct pump gas (but the study used E10-91)
- No risk of detonation, even under hot weather
- Advanced timing (how much?)
- Won't benefit having more ethanol % (heat of vaporization) because a Viper engine is port injected.
- Less risk of corrosion than running E85
- No need to modify the gas pump and/or injectors
- Within +/- 5% of gas milleage

I forgot something?


The study paper that Jason mentionned in his video:

https://saemobilus.sae.org/content/2014-01-1228/

For the splash blends, denatured ethanol was added to E10-91RON, which resulted in E20-96RON and E30-101 RON. For the octane-matched blends, gasoline blendstocks were formulated to maintain constant RON and MON for E10, E20, and E30.
The match blend E20-91RON and E30-91RON showed no knock benefit compared to the baseline E10-91RON fuel. However, the splash blend E20-96RON and E10-98RON enabled 11.9:1 CR with similar knock performance to E10-91RON at 10:1 CR. The splash blend E30-101RON enabled 13:1 CR with better knock performance than E10-91RON at 10:1 CR. As expected, E85-108RON exhibited dramatically better knock performance than E30-101RON.
The data were used in a vehicle simulation of a 3.5L EcoBoost F150, which showed that E20-96 RON at 11.9:1 CR offers 5% improvement in tailpipe CO2 emissions and 1% improvement in miles per gallon (MPG) fuel economy relative to E10-91RON at 10:1 CR. E30-101 RON at 13:1 CR in this vehicle yielded 6−9% improvement in CO2 emissions and 2% worse to 1% better MPG fuel economy, depending on the drive cycle.
The match blend fuels resulted in no opportunity for improved efficiency, and degradation of MPG fuel economy due to reduced heating value per volume.

[Aevus]

The new Demon 170 makes 14% extra HP, with 65% ethanol (compared to 91 pump gas), 1025hp instead of 900hp

probably a much greater benefit, since it's FI and direct injection, than our engine, but still, with proper tuning we should get +5% or so ?

That's good for 30whp on a 600whp car. Not bad!

[T/A KID]

The new Demon 170 makes 14% extra HP, with 65% ethanol (compared to 91 pump gas), 1025hp instead of 900hp

probably a much greater benefit, since it's FI and direct injection, than our engine, but still, with proper tuning we should get +5% or so ?

That's good for 30whp on a 600whp car. Not bad!

Now you know why I want to run e85 on my bolt on gen 5