E85 gas on Viper a good idea or not

[Aevus]

yes but the point in the video is that 20-40% of ethanol total, in your fuel content is enough to have most of the benefits without the downsides (of using just E85)

[Lawineer]

seriously, the more I read about this, and everything, the less I understand why the f*** bozos at the governements (Europe and Canada especially) are pushing in our throats the EVs....

Wouldnt it make more sense, at least for a smooth transition to 100% electric somewhere around 2040 or whenenever it make sense, to just adopt HYBRID plug-ins using high CR turbocharged engines running on E85 ?!?

Imagine manufacturers developping dedicated E85 (not flexfuel) super efficient 14-15 CR, small turbocharged motors, combined with smaller, lighter and cheaper electric motors & battery combos....

but NO, these dogmatic bozos are looking for 100% electric or nothing. Which is a total non-sense.

Ethanol is damn near net negative energy

[Aevus]

Corn-based ethanol, yes.
But what about 2nd generation (cellulose/waste) and 3rd gen (algae) ethanol?

Corn gave ethanol a bad name, I think. But there's much more to that than just corn

[Aevus]

Besides, a well-designed PHEV would be the smartest solution for at least 80% of the planet.

I sure can imagine a super lightweight tiny 1 liter turbocharged 15:1 CR that delivers 200hp+, if it runs on E85 or E100.
Then instead of wasting energy to pull 1500lbs of (partially drained) batteries on a EV, you benefit from the best of both worlds...

How can we ditch 150 years of ICE knowledge, when we have access to such a great fuel ?

[ViperGeorge]

seriously, the more I read about this, and everything, the less I understand why the f*** bozos at the governements (Europe and Canada especially) are pushing in our throats the EVs....

Wouldnt it make more sense, at least for a smooth transition to 100% electric somewhere around 2040 or whenenever it make sense, to just adopt HYBRID plug-ins using high CR turbocharged engines running on E85 ?!?

Imagine manufacturers developping dedicated E85 (not flexfuel) super efficient 14-15 CR, small turbocharged motors, combined with smaller, lighter and cheaper electric motors & battery combos....

but NO, these dogmatic bozos are looking for 100% electric or nothing. Which is a total non-sense.

Toyota published a paper saying exactly this. I will have to look for it. There take was that because of limited supplies of Lithium (controlled by China by the way) and other rare earths (also controlled by China) needed to make batteries you are better off using the limited supplies to build hybrids if you are serious about reducing greenhouse gases. They go through the math on their analysis. I think they also said the grid won't handle a fully electric fleet.

[Aevus]

Exactly, ViperGeorge

I read a lot on the topic in the last years, and this is 100% pure greenwashing by politics who wants to scoop votes from dogmatic green activists

I think they also said the grid won't handle a fully electric fleet.

Not to mention that when you burn COAL to produce electricity, it makes the whole Tesla greenwash a bit absurd...

[ViperGeorge]

The article on Toyota was in "Automotive News" from 1/31/23. I don't now how to post a pdf here.

[Aevus]

Bytheway, despite being a Viper owner, I'm not against electric vehicles... actually I owned a BMW i3 and enjoyed it a lot (except for winter)
I really do appreciate the engineering behind that car, but still PHEV is the best solution. At least for 20-30 years, until battery technology and electricity production is more ready for the 8-9 billions population needs...

[Aevus]

Cats / ethanol
if you plan to convert to E85, read this:

https://itstillruns.com/effects-etha...-12172217.html

Ethanol and ZDDP
Your engine's cylinders never achieve an airtight seal; at best, they'll always allow at least 1 percent of the combustion gases to escape past the rings and into the crankcase, where the oil is. The problem with ethanol is that it's highly reactive with phosphorous, combining with it to produce any one of several free-floating phosphor compounds. These compounds get sucked up through your positive crankcase ventilation system, sent through the motor and then make it to the catalytic converter. Once that happens, you're looking at converter poisoning not directly as a result of the ethanol, but the way that it interacts with the phosphorus in your oil.

What You Can Do
Note the strategic use of the word "standard oil" two sections above. While the government did indeed cut allowable ZDDP content in standard oils to about a quarter of what it was 20 years ago, manufacturers can still get away with using huge quantities of the stuff in "specialty" oils. Racing oils often contain large amounts of ZDDP to cope with high valvespring pressures and steep cam lobes, which would conspire to induce premature cam and lifter wear without some sort of additive. But you're more likely to find high ZDDP levels in any one of the many "extended life" oils on the shelves today -- they're excepted from the government's ZDDP limitation by virtue of being specialty compounds. So standard oil plus ethanol: good. "Extended life" or racing oil plus ethanol: bad.

[Whitey]

There is no reason to run e-85 with stock compression. High compression N/A, Turbos - yes. Don't forget the stock PCM will not support. Also, a high compression (et al) e-85 conversion requires supporting mods ($10-$15K ish...), PCM revision, higher volume fuel pump(s), larger fuel lines, rails, injectors and then tune (timing). Every 3-4 tanks of e-85 requires a following 93 octane tank for detergents to clean out the fuel system. Saying that, I have driven an e85 high compression N/A conversion, huge cam and the above supporting mods and it was outrageous.

My two cents. Good luck with your decision.

[ViperGeorge]

Here is the Toyota article. Hopefully the attachment works.

Toyota to EV-only extremists_ Science says you're wrong _ Automotive News (1) (1).pdf

[Whitey]

Ahh yeah I forgot to mention yes I'm running race fuel. Torco 118 or VP C16. Overkill for my 12.75 compression ratio, but it's hot at a lot of the events I do, especially here in Arizona.
The extra weight of the pumps, lines and the extra fuel I'd need to run is about 40 lbs which slows me down everywhere on track, braking, cornering etc. That being said, when I start taking two cars to events (Practice with the N/A car and do my hot lap in the turbo car) I'll probably convert the N/A car so I don't have to carry two different fuels in my trailer

Hey Dude,
I thought you were running 158 to 1 compression ratio shitting gears with a paddle sequential? LOL. You need to stay out of this thread! LOL. Your rig is the benchmark N/A build - for sure. Looking for updates. Sorry OP for the topic steal.

[Aevus]

Saying that, I have driven an e85 high compression N/A conversion, huge cam and the above supporting mods and it was outrageous.

nicholson-gif.gif


(and Jack drinks ethanol)

[Aevus]

Here is the Toyota article. Hopefully the attachment works.

Toyota to EV-only extremists_ Science says you're wrong _ Automotive News (1) (1).pdf

Thanks George!

Will sure read this paper.

I'm not surprised the biggest automaker in the world is stepping up against this BS non-sense greenwashing, that European 2035 ''strategy'' is downright stupid.

[Aevus]

You might all know already about the Micro Fueler, but here is an excellent video (and interesting product)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDHrjJK43Ek

(and he even mention the Dodge Viper...) hehehe

[Lawineer]

There is no reason to run e-85 with stock compression. High compression N/A, Turbos - yes. Don't forget the stock PCM will not support. Also, a high compression (et al) e-85 conversion requires supporting mods ($10-$15K ish...), PCM revision, higher volume fuel pump(s), larger fuel lines, rails, injectors and then tune (timing). Every 3-4 tanks of e-85 requires a following 93 octane tank for detergents to clean out the fuel system. Saying that, I have driven an e85 high compression N/A conversion, huge cam and the above supporting mods and it was outrageous.

My two cents. Good luck with your decision.

A big benefit is that you could tune the car to not pull timing when it gets hot. Big benefit to us road racers. By lap 3, pretty much every car except Porsche GT cars, is pulling a lot of power off the table.

Is there any actual evidence that e-85 cleans anything? Higher octane is harder to burn, and without a proper tune, will likely cause its own problem due to gunk build up/unburnt fuel in the long run. Good modern fuels have a lot of detergents. Just wondering.

[ViperGeorge]

You might all know already about the Micro Fueler, but here is an excellent video (and interesting product)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDHrjJK43Ek

(and he even mention the Dodge Viper...) hehehe

That was a very interesting video.

[Aevus]

yes, but unfortunately they're out off business. Actually, almost no trace on internet...

[Aevus]

There is no reason to run e-85 with stock compression. High compression N/A, Turbos - yes. Don't forget the stock PCM will not support. Also, a high compression (et al) e-85 conversion requires supporting mods ($10-$15K ish...), PCM revision, higher volume fuel pump(s), larger fuel lines, rails, injectors and then tune (timing). Every 3-4 tanks of e-85 requires a following 93 octane tank for detergents to clean out the fuel system. Saying that, I have driven an e85 high compression N/A conversion, huge cam and the above supporting mods and it was outrageous.

My two cents. Good luck with your decision.

Next week I'll try what Jason explained in his video: 20-30% ethanol, i'll do the mix myself by adding to pump 91 gas few gallons of pure ethanol.

If I understood correctly the video, with 20% ethanol, the AFR should be around 13.6 (instead of 14.7 for 100% gasoline)

My AFR is not good at the moment anyway, might as well do that experiment right now.

Would be funny if it helps with my big cam's idle!

with that kind of 20-30% ethanol content, it should not require a bigger fuel pump, and I already have 69# injectors

[Lawineer]

It would probably hurt your idle, if anything. Higher octane is harder to ignite. I also dont think it will have any measurable effect.

[Aevus]

Is there any actual evidence that e-85 cleans anything? Higher octane is harder to burn, and without a proper tune, will likely cause its own problem due to gunk build up/unburnt fuel in the long run. Good modern fuels have a lot of detergents. Just wondering.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATGSBi1kBl0

Another video by Jason, on how different fuel causes wear (and how they clean)

more and more interesting...

[Whitey]

A big benefit is that you could tune the car to not pull timing when it gets hot. Big benefit to us road racers. By lap 3, pretty much every car except Porsche GT cars, is pulling a lot of power off the table.

Is there any actual evidence that e-85 cleans anything? Higher octane is harder to burn, and without a proper tune, will likely cause its own problem due to gunk build up/unburnt fuel in the long run. Good modern fuels have a lot of detergents. Just wondering.

Usually, e-85 conversion discussions are about power, not heat. To your point, if you are using hp tuners the revisions to the PCM triangulation can be done, based on your risk tolerance.

I may not understand your second paragraph, but e-85 is the corrosive fuel where detergents (93) can be used (every three tanks) to keep it clean(er). I have spoke to several tuners and e-85 conversion owners that recommend this approach.

For N/A builds, once your A/F and timing is set, running higher octane (imo), primarily provides detonation benefits, not power. I have a 9LX conversion and blend 91 (CA fuel) and 101++ to target 93 to 95 octane. I do this primarily (due to CA heat) to lower detonation risk and I can full send with worrying too much.

If I did a high compression N/A conversion (12.75:1), I would probably tune with 101/102 octane. If I went turbos, e-85/Ethanol 1 for sure.

[Whitey]

Next week I'll try what Jason explained in his video: 20-30% ethanol, i'll do the mix myself by adding to pump 91 gas few gallons of pure ethanol.

If I understood correctly the video, with 20% ethanol, the AFR should be around 13.6 (instead of 14.7 for 100% gasoline)

My AFR is not good at the moment anyway, might as well do that experiment right now.

Would be funny if it helps with my big cam's idle!

with that kind of 20-30% ethanol content, it should not require a bigger fuel pump, and I already have 69# injectors

If you don't change your timing, imo, there will be no difference. Maybe rich....?

[Whitey]

Higher octane is harder to burn, and without a proper tune, will likely cause its own problem due to gunk build up/unburnt fuel in the long run.

Oh...PS....My plugs looked perfect last change. Agree with you on stock tunes.

[T/A KID]

Just to add I’ve ran solely e85 for more then 4 years on certain vehicles and never had a problem.. not sure I buy into the run 93 to “clean out” the fuel system bit…

The tune would need to be changed regardless due to stoich ratio difference.. so little extra timing would benefit.