What are my options after a rod bearing failure

[Mikey]

Mikey,
Typically you use ultrasonic cleaning to dissolve gunk. Ex: if a carburetor/injector system has been sitting for a long time and the gasoline has turned into a varnish-like substance. You simply submerge the unit into a bath of solvent in an ultrasonic container. The solvent is then heated and the ultrasonic vibrations help agitate and dissolve the "gunk". Not sure how/if that would work when removing metal pieces from intricate crevasses inside an oil cooler. If it was indeed ultrasonically cleaned, I am sure that "everything was clean as a whistle" - including the (first) left over metal pieces. Dammed near impossible to prove as the system is probably contaminated again. It is a problem that you initially were told that the oil-cooler and lines were replaced. In an ideal world you deal with "adults" that take responsibility for their actions and just do the right thing. I.e. just fix it if you made a mistake.

I'm sure this will be brought up by the builder once he receives the motor. I was billed for a new cooler and lines, the builder was told new cooler and lines were installed, yet they weren't.

[Lawineer]

Idk- the fact that it went to shit in 600 miles is pretty strong evidence the builder did something wrong.

[ACRSNK]

I hate when people try to be shady. Stand up and stand behind your work and products! Hope they make it right for you.

[ViperGeorge]

Until the engine is torn down it is hard to know what caused the failure. Remember that bearings that fail leave telltale signs of what caused the problem. Dick Winkles reviewed this on a few engines that failed and which Dodge refused to warranty because they had the Arrow PCM. It was explained that debris leaves different marks on the bearings than detonation or other faults. Dick was able to show that the engines failed because of debris not because of the PCM. You can google images of failed bearings by cause.

So a close examination of the bearings should be able to tell whether the problem was caused by debris, low oil, detonation, whatever. The failure might have nothing to do with bearings, the oil cooler, or lines. Maybe the oil pump failed or maybe the engine builder did something wrong inside. Only way to tell is to tear into the engine.

[Mikey]

Until the engine is torn down it is hard to know what caused the failure. Remember that bearings that fail leave telltale signs of what caused the problem. Dick Winkles reviewed this on a few engines that failed and which Dodge refused to warranty because they had the Arrow PCM. It was explained that debris leaves different marks on the bearings than detonation or other faults. Dick was able to show that the engines failed because of debris not because of the PCM. You can google images of failed bearings by cause.

So a close examination of the bearings should be able to tell whether the problem was caused by debris, low oil, detonation, whatever. The failure might have nothing to do with bearings, the oil cooler, or lines. Maybe the oil pump failed or maybe the engine builder did something wrong inside. Only way to tell is to tear into the engine.

Good point, this is probably what Kevin was referring to
The "good news" is, motor is already crated up and will be shipped on Monday, Kevin will be getting into it as soon as it arrives

[SLYBRI]

Cooler itself may be NLA, good salvage (aka no motor blow) may exist, but aftermarket line options exist for sure if OE is no longer available (arguably an upgrade).

[Lawineer]

Until the engine is torn down it is hard to know what caused the failure. Remember that bearings that fail leave telltale signs of what caused the problem. Dick Winkles reviewed this on a few engines that failed and which Dodge refused to warranty because they had the Arrow PCM. It was explained that debris leaves different marks on the bearings than detonation or other faults. Dick was able to show that the engines failed because of debris not because of the PCM. You can google images of failed bearings by cause.

So a close examination of the bearings should be able to tell whether the problem was caused by debris, low oil, detonation, whatever. The failure might have nothing to do with bearings, the oil cooler, or lines. Maybe the oil pump failed or maybe the engine builder did something wrong inside. Only way to tell is to tear into the engine.

I'm hardly a failure analysis expert but I dont think detonation leaves a mark on the road bearings. Detonation is pretty easy to spot. Your piston is cracked.

Unless Mikey was revving this think to 9k or something, it's hard to imagine it's anything but the builder responsibility. I don't know WHY (debris, building, parts, whatever), but its 600 miles.

[ViperGeorge]

I'm hardly a failure analysis expert but I dont think detonation leaves a mark on the road bearings. Detonation is pretty easy to spot. Your piston is cracked.

Unless Mikey was revving this think to 9k or something, it's hard to imagine it's anything but the builder responsibility. I don't know WHY (debris, building, parts, whatever), but its 600 miles.

Detonation causes bearing fatigue. I believe it leaves "hammer" like damage to bearings. Detonation strong enough to crack a piston would probably have damaged the bearings as well. Lots of articles on the web about what impact various problems have on bearings. Here are just a couple of references, both mention detonation as a cause of bearing failure:

https://www.enginebuildermag.com/201...-and-distress/
https://www.substech.com/dokuwiki/do...eir_prevention

[Mikey]

We'll figure out what happened next week. Kevin is looking to get this turned over quickly, thankfully. There are aftermarket cooler and lines available, I'll be purchasing straight from Kevin to avoid any further discrepancies

[V10LEE]

Mikey man sorry to hear about all this what you're going through. If it was my Viper I would of just had a transport company ship the car directly to Kevin in Reno from the beginning. Best of luck

[Lawineer]

Detonation causes bearing fatigue. I believe it leaves "hammer" like damage to bearings. Detonation strong enough to crack a piston would probably have damaged the bearings as well. Lots of articles on the web about what impact various problems have on bearings. Here are just a couple of references, both mention detonation as a cause of bearing failure:

https://www.enginebuildermag.com/201...-and-distress/
https://www.substech.com/dokuwiki/do...eir_prevention

It leaves a hell of a mark on pistons too. Detonation is a “snap” rather than a slow burn causing the rod to push down hard into the journal to spin a bearing.


It would probably take a lot more than 600 problem free miles to do it. I’m not even sure how it would do it with knock sensors and not throwing a code, but I guess anything is possible. I’d be extremely surprised if it was detonation given it was running smoothly beforehand and totality of circumstances. Hell, even if it’s knocking, rod or piston, that’s on the engine builder as well. Especially at low load. That’s one hell of a shit tune if that’s the case.

[Mikey]

It leaves a hell of a mark on pistons too. Detonation is a “snap” rather than a slow burn causing the rod to push down hard into the journal to spin a bearing.


It would probably take a lot more than 600 problem free miles to do it. I’m not even sure how it would do it with knock sensors and not throwing a code, but I guess anything is possible. I’d be extremely surprised if it was detonation given it was running smoothly beforehand and totality of circumstances. Hell, even if it’s knocking, rod or piston, that’s on the engine builder as well. Especially at low load. That’s one hell of a shit tune if that’s the case.

I'd be surprised if it was the tune, prefix set up the tune specifically for my motor

[Mikey]

Mikey man sorry to hear about all this what you're going through. If it was my Viper I would of just had a transport company ship the car directly to Kevin in Reno from the beginning. Best of luck

That would have been the plan initially, I wasn't sure if he only did motors are complete installs at the time

[Docmartin]

Wow I missed alot over the last few days. Very sorry to see you dealing with this Mikey.

I had my outlet oil cooler line replaced at the end of last November by the dealer. I'm happy to provide the invoice if it is at helpful in your pursuit of resolution. Best of luck!

[V10LEE]

That would have been the plan initially, I wasn't sure if he only did motors are complete installs at the time

He does both ive talked to Kevin he told me I could drive to his shop , and drop my Viper off. Im about an hour from Reno.

[Mikey]

Wow I missed alot over the last few days. Very sorry to see you dealing with this Mikey.

I had my outlet oil cooler line replaced at the end of last November by the dealer. I'm happy to provide the invoice if it is at helpful in your pursuit of resolution. Best of luck!

It's all good doc, I'm gonna get some through kevin

[Hardtopz28]

Idk- the fact that it went to shit in 600 miles is pretty strong evidence the builder did something wrong.

I can see a dirty oil cooler causing bearing damage but I cant see it causing the engine to kick something out of the bottom hard enough to crack a oil pan. I think its shitty for you to be billed for things that were never installed. Good luck man, hate your dealing with this

[Mikey]

I can see a dirty oil cooler causing bearing damage but I cant see it causing the engine to kick something out of the bottom hard enough to crack a oil pan. I think its shitty for you to be billed for things that were never installed. Good luck man, hate your dealing with this

Once Kevin gets into the teardown, I'll see how I want to approach the situation. There's about 2k in parts that I did not receive (rack, cooler, and lines). If the cooler and lines turn out not to be the cause, I'd heavily suggest that the money that he charged for new parts that he never installed should make us even

[Hardtopz28]

Good luck man I wish you all the best. I know how you feel I went through the first part of you situation with a zr1 and will prob never own another corvette due to that experience.

[7TH_SIGN]

So Prefix did the rebuild and it still failed? I’m sorry man. This is horrible to go through. This is NOT your fault! FCA quality is hit or miss. I had non-mechanical issues with only 200 miles on my GEN V and Prefix really came through for me when FCA refused to correct their own mistake. Seeing a couple others with engine and drivetrain issues along with the recalls and FCA refusing warranty coverage, forced me to sell my GEN V. I do miss it at times but definitely not the headaches.

For these cars there are really only two shops I trust and that’s Calvo and Nth Moto. However at this point and with all the money you have spent, I would completely understand you wanting to sell it. I wish you all the best. Hopefully one day you can get back to enjoying owning a fun car.

[Mikey]

So Prefix did the rebuild and it still failed? I’m sorry man. This is horrible to go through. This is NOT your fault! FCA quality is hit or miss. I had non-mechanical issues with only 200 miles on my GEN V and Prefix really came through for me when FCA refused to correct their own mistake. Seeing a couple others with engine and drivetrain issues along with the recalls and FCA refusing warranty coverage, forced me to sell my GEN V. I do miss it at times but definitely not the headaches.

For these cars there are really only two shops I trust and that’s Calvo and Nth Moto. However at this point and with all the money you have spent, I would completely understand you wanting to sell it. I wish you all the best. Hopefully one day you can get back to enjoying owning a fun car.

It was built by Kevin Singleton at EED, prefix only did the ecu tune
I'm still waiting for the motor to be shipped off, it's been on a pallet for a week now

[7TH_SIGN]

It was built by Kevin Singleton at EED, prefix only did the ecu tune
I'm still waiting for the motor to be shipped off, it's been on a pallet for a week now

Oh, got you. Damn man. Two different shops… One built the engine and the other tuned it? This is a guaranteed nightmare. Hopefully one of the two step forward and take accountability. Someone is at fault and it’s not you.

[Lawineer]

Once Kevin gets into the teardown, I'll see how I want to approach the situation. There's about 2k in parts that I did not receive (rack, cooler, and lines). If the cooler and lines turn out not to be the cause, I'd heavily suggest that the money that he charged for new parts that he never installed should make us even

I am very optimistic about the guy who took your money for parts he didn’t install taking apart the motor and telling you it was his fault and paying for a new engine built.

Jfc, I’m sorry you’re going through. I’m just sending my shit to Nth when/if it blows and paying their fee. What a mess.

[efnfast]

I am very optimistic about the guy who took your money for parts he didn’t install taking apart the motor and telling you it was his fault and paying for a new engine built.

Jfc, I’m sorry you’re going through. I’m just sending my shit to Nth when/if it blows and paying their fee. What a mess.

If i'm not mistaken it was the shop that did the install/uninstall that sold phantom parts, not the engine builder.

Oh, got you. Damn man. Two different shops… One built the engine and the other tuned it? This is a guaranteed nightmare. Hopefully one of the two step forward and take accountability. Someone is at fault and it’s not you.

That's how it's usually done unless you ship the car to the shop? I've had several engines built and all of them tuned by a different shop.

When parts try to exit via the oil pan I'm pretty sure that's an engine assembly issue.....

[Lawineer]

Oh Geeze
So there are three shops at play potentially?