Brake upgrade to Racing Brake CCB

[Ritroman]

pMak26 will private message. Thinking of joining NJMP. Would like to talk to you about the track and your experience with the track

[ViperGeorge]

Thanks for the information TAY. This confirms what I thought. I could only find a BMW team using the brakes. Gives me pause.

You should check with Warren at Racing Brakes. As I understand it, their rear bias adjusting calipers were developed because of data from a racing team running Vipers. The data showed that there was too much rear bias. Given this I think that there were in fact racing teams running their brakes.

Just to reiterate I have had no problems with their stuff, rotors or calipers. The rear bias adjusting calipers definitely work. Even if you stick with OEM calipers, Racing Brakes can rebuild them using high temp seals and improved components. They did a set for me and they came back looking great. One thing they discovered was that my car came with 3 rear calipers installed. Externally they look the same but the piston size in the rear is slightly smaller than the front. I ended up buying a new front so that I had a complete set.

[Arizona Vipers]

I think I disagree with this, assuming you're a decent driver. I was using Hawk DCT70s without aero and they were outgasing hard. I dont think they had much left. I was on Pzeros.
You definitely need to run very aggressive race pads.

With that said, race pads are a lot cheaper than CCB

I ran the stock pads on my Stop Tech setup. I broke 7-8 Nasa track records with that setup and that was running 335 A7's up front

[Lawineer]

I ran the stock pads on my Stop Tech setup. I broke 7-8 Nasa track records with that setup and that was running 335 A7's up front

What track?
I've literally never come across a car that can run stock brake pads on slicks. The only cars I've ever seen do it on street tires without fade are a Lotus Elise, and, for whatever reason, BMW.

[Arizona Vipers]

What track?
I've literally never come across a car that can run stock brake pads on slicks. The only cars I've ever seen do it on street tires without fade are a Lotus Elise, and, for whatever reason, BMW.

The highest speed ones are Chuckwalla, INDE where I hit about 160, over and over. I guess that's why these brakes are called "Track Pack" lol And with the ACR brakes on it I'm still running stock pads and have run 2.12 at Road America, 1.24 at Road Atlanta. I hit 176 at Road American 3 times a lap, stock pads, no fade. 800whp
The fast times the TA 1.0 ran all over the country with pro drivers were stock pads as well.

[Lawineer]

You have significantly bigger balls than me lol

[Arizona Vipers]

You have significantly bigger balls than me lol

I doubt that, you are the restaurant owner! lmao

[speedtactics]

The highest speed ones are Chuckwalla, INDE where I hit about 160, over and over. I guess that's why these brakes are called "Track Pack" lol And with the ACR brakes on it I'm still running stock pads and have run 2.12 at Road America, 1.24 at Road Atlanta. I hit 176 at Road American 3 times a lap, stock pads, no fade. 800whp
The fast times the TA 1.0 ran all over the country with pro drivers were stock pads as well.

All the ACR track records were on stock tires and brakes.

[txA&M08]

What track?
I've literally never come across a car that can run stock brake pads on slicks. The only cars I've ever seen do it on street tires without fade are a Lotus Elise, and, for whatever reason, BMW.

My oem Track Pack pads faded within a couple laps on me. This was back in 2017 and was the only time I took stock pads to the track. I was on newish R888Rs and had fresh Castrol SRF in the system. It's been race pads ever since and I never had any fade ever again.

I truly have no idea how a pad that couldn't make it 10 minutes for me can achieve track records for others.

I probably hang on the brakes a bit much, but that much?

[Lawineer]

All the ACR track records were on stock tires and brakes.

ACR had CCB

[speedtactics]

ACR had CCB

I realized that after I posted it LOL

[speedtactics]

My oem Track Pack pads faded within a couple laps on me. This was back in 2017 and was the only time I took stock pads to the track. I was on newish R888Rs and had fresh Castrol SRF in the system. It's been race pads ever since and I never had any fade ever again.

I truly have no idea how a pad that couldn't make it 10 minutes for me can achieve track records for others.

I probably hang on the brakes a bit much, but that much?

Weird, I am using stock Brembo disc and pads, never fading issues. I guess I drive too slow.

[Hawk]

What track?
I've literally never come across a car that can run stock brake pads on slicks. The only cars I've ever seen do it on street tires without fade are a Lotus Elise, and, for whatever reason, BMW.

For the last year I was running my stock TA pads with R7 tires and never had any brake fade and I have been running the fastest lap time of any vehicle of the several open track day’s I’ve been to at Thompson Speedway. I just changed my pads to Hawk’s DTC 60 (F) and HT 10 (R) because I could got find Raybestos ST45/ST43,although I did notice a lot of cracking and flaking on my stock pads they did handle the job but as I’m getting faster I was looking for more. I always run fresh Motul 600 fluid

[Arizona Vipers]

All the ACR track records were on stock tires and brakes.

Same with the TA 1.0 records. For example it had the record at Laguna Seca before the ACR broke it.

[Arizona Vipers]

My oem Track Pack pads faded within a couple laps on me. This was back in 2017 and was the only time I took stock pads to the track. I was on newish R888Rs and had fresh Castrol SRF in the system. It's been race pads ever since and I never had any fade ever again.

I truly have no idea how a pad that couldn't make it 10 minutes for me can achieve track records for others.

I probably hang on the brakes a bit much, but that much?

So Dodge sold a Viper with brakes that fade in two laps? Something is wrong. Even my wife's 5500lbs X5M brakes lasted longer than two laps and her 4700lbs 700hp AMG wagon on A7's as well (But they did catch fire lol)
Never heard of any magazine track test of any sports car where the brakes faded in two laps. The magazine's would destroy any car that happened to and the engineers would have to immediately recall the car and fix it.
Look at all the VIR Lightning Lap articles over the years, I haven't heard of brake fade on cars like ours in like 10 years. And remember, I'm braking from speeds at least 15mph faster than you in every braking zone, with massive front slicks, zero fade.

[txA&M08]

So Dodge sold a Viper with brakes that fade in two laps? Something is wrong. Even my wife's 5500lbs X5M brakes lasted longer than two laps and her 4700lbs 700hp AMG wagon on A7's as well (But they did catch fire lol)
Never heard of any magazine track test of any sports car where the brakes faded in two laps. The magazine's would destroy any car that happened to and the engineers would have to immediately recall the car and fix it.
Look at all the VIR Lightning Lap articles over the years, I haven't heard of brake fade on cars like ours in like 10 years. And remember, I'm braking from speeds at least 15mph faster than you in every braking zone, with massive front slicks, zero fade.

It was probably more like 3-5 laps, but point taken. I'm not sure what the issue was, or what "street" pads were in the car when I bought it, but after committing to track pads ever since, I've never had fade again so I'm happy.

[Arizona Vipers]

It was probably more like 3-5 laps, but point taken. I'm not sure what the issue was, or what "street" pads were in the car when I bought it, but after committing to track pads ever since, I've never had fade again so I'm happy.

I'd check for air etc. I'm not sure how track experienced you are, but if your tires get hot and over inflated your braking distances will go way up as well. You want 29-31 hot on those tires (right in the hot pits with no cool down lap). 99% of people I see at the track on street tires run way too much pressure and it's night and day for them after I show them to start much lower

[Lawineer]

So Dodge sold a Viper with brakes that fade in two laps? Something is wrong. Even my wife's 5500lbs X5M brakes lasted longer than two laps and her 4700lbs 700hp AMG wagon on A7's as well (But they did catch fire lol)
Never heard of any magazine track test of any sports car where the brakes faded in two laps. The magazine's would destroy any car that happened to and the engineers would have to immediately recall the car and fix it.
Look at all the VIR Lightning Lap articles over the years, I haven't heard of brake fade on cars like ours in like 10 years. And remember, I'm braking from speeds at least 15mph faster than you in every braking zone, with massive front slicks, zero fade.

Literally, yes.
It's not even uncommon. Unless it's CCB or a very light car like an Elise, most cars (especially ~700hp ones with aero and massive tires) will absolutely destroy street compound tires. And not just OEM ones- virtually all street or "street+track hybrid" pads. The only car I can recall that was fine on street pads was a lotus elise, but it was on true street tires (300TW type tires, and having such low grip, btw, is "interesting" in such a short wheelbase car). With an experienced driver, they all just fade. This is exactly why almost every car that comes with a Cup2 type "ultra sticky" tire requires CCB.

Most OEMs will either give them a model with CCB or actually put different pads in there. And the magazines know they can't run 30 minutes with them anyway. I've worked for a few OEMs. Yes, they cheat, lol.

My C7GS had "Z06 sized" brembo 6 piston brakes and I could easily go through them in 3-4 laps. It had very aggressive pads for being oem street pads too. Dust everywhere on those darn things.

Most coaches I know here won't even go out on track if a car doesn't have fresh race fluid and race pads. At the very least, even low-temp race pad (true race pad, not hybrid) will slowly start to fade and will fade to 30-40% or something if you keep pushing. Street pads are more like 100-90-20.
When I bring guests to the track, I have three requirements. Fluid, pads and memorize the track.

[SRT_BluByU]

I donno.. the TA Pads were QUITE substantial and I seem to recall MT specifically reporting no fade during testing?

[Lawineer]

I donno.. the TA Pads were QUITE substantial and I seem to recall MT specifically reporting no fade during testing?

Were TA pads different than "track pack?"

With iron rotors, unless they make a ton of dust, eat rotors and squeal a little, they'll probably fade after 5 laps with >500hp. Just my experience.

The 4 piston brakes are pretty undersized to begin with imo.

[ViperGeorge]

Were TA pads different than "track pack?"

With iron rotors, unless they make a ton of dust, eat rotors and squeal a little, they'll probably fade after 5 laps with >500hp. Just my experience.

The 4 piston brakes are pretty undersized to begin with imo.

The TA pads are wider as is the annulus on the rotors. I believe the OEM TA pads have the same compound (or roughly so) to the non-TA pads. The TA brake system provides for more thermal capacity. This would increase the time for the brakes to fade. I believe the track pack only had rotors with slots and removable hats. They are not the same as TA rotors.

[SRT_BluByU]

The TA pads (and rotors) are MUCH thicker than the Track Pack or other non-TA variants. Really the best steel brake package ever put on a Viper from the factory.

[TheWessss]

**Disclaimer** I track my ACR-E A LOT on the OEM CCMs, been on almost every major track in the US, and I agree with most of what has already been said. The CCM's are a cost bump from the 2piece rotors. But I can tell you because I have driven both, there is a difference. I also don't think the cost difference is really that much. I have found rotors for around $2000 which is really not that much more for the carbons and I have replaced plenty of pads but have yet to replace a rotor because they are still within spec.

The only things I would add to help from my experience is you need to add the additional cooling tubes routed through the control arms directing that cool air to the back of the caliper. (3" silicone reinforced) mainly on the fronts but ya might as well do the backs too. That $60 purchase keeps fresh air flowing to the brakes around the whole track for a 30 minute session or you can buy the really fancy kit TKO motorsports sells. But whatever rotor package you decide to run that will be your biggest improvement to reduce brake fade down to nothing.

[Lawineer]

**Disclaimer** I track my ACR-E A LOT on the OEM CCMs, been on almost every major track in the US, and I agree with most of what has already been said. The CCM's are a cost bump from the 2piece rotors. But I can tell you because I have driven both, there is a difference. I also don't think the cost difference is really that much. I have found rotors for around $2000 which is really not that much more for the carbons and I have replaced plenty of pads but have yet to replace a rotor because they are still within spec.

The only things I would add to help from my experience is you need to add the additional cooling tubes routed through the control arms directing that cool air to the back of the caliper. (3" silicone reinforced) mainly on the fronts but ya might as well do the backs too. That $60 purchase keeps fresh air flowing to the brakes around the whole track for a 30 minute session or you can buy the really fancy kit TKO motorsports sells. But whatever rotor package you decide to run that will be your biggest improvement to reduce brake fade down to nothing.

Good info. I'm going to upgrade my brakes, but unsure if I'm going to do CCB or get the ACR brakes with steel rotors. Only reason I'm thinking CCB is because I can just show up to the track. With steel, it's a whole process of swapping out pads every track day (and it's a science fair project to get my car in the air because it's so low + side skirts + diffuser).


Since I'm more or less sure I'm not getting a Z06/7, I need a fast car for the track. Running in the BRZ all day is awesome, but sometimes, it's fun to bring out the big toys and run with friends. I used to love running the track cars, then the last session to two, I'd take out my C7GS and my buddy would take out his 997.2 GT3RS and we'd just go at it. Since we were neck and neck when I was in the 460hp Grand Sport, I think he's going to be in trouble against Gen 5 Viper with mild aero and professionally calibrated Tractive coilovers, lol. I may have to agree not to use 3rd gear or something, haha.

And thanks to posters above for TA brake info.


edit: What calipers does the ACR have in the rear? bigger than the other models?

[TheWessss]

rear is still a 4 piston but the pad is much bigger than the standard