Clutch help

[13COBRA]

Really appreciate the offer. Let me see what Chapman says.

Of course. Definitely use me as a last resort, but even if you tell me you want it installed the Monday before Rendezvous, I'll make time.

[ViperGeorge]

Of course. Definitely use me as a last resort, but even if you tell me you want it installed the Monday before Rendezvous, I'll make time.

Thanks very much. My schedule is crazy in the next month and a half. I am heading to Las Vegas today to pick up my 08 Convertible Viper that my son "borrowed" for the past year. I drive it back Monday. My wife and I are heading to New Mexico in the convertible with the club on the 25th returning on the 31st. I leave for Boston on June 3rd for my grandson's 2nd birthday and fly back Tuesday, the 6th. I was planning to get my trailer and load the car for Hastings on Wednesday and then head there on Thursday. If I am able to get the slave changed it would have to be sometime in the next week or so.

I may have to chance using the car at Hastings if I can't get the slave changed before then or I suppose I could use my 14 GTS if my ACR continues to act up. I will try pumping the clutch some more and see how it behaves. It did seem somewhat better after doing this on Tuesday.

[13COBRA]

Thanks very much. My schedule is crazy in the next month and a half. I am heading to Las Vegas today to pick up my 08 Convertible Viper that my son "borrowed" for the past year. I drive it back Monday. My wife and I are heading to New Mexico in the convertible with the club on the 25th returning on the 31st. I leave for Boston on June 3rd for my grandson's 2nd birthday and fly back Tuesday, the 6th. I was planning to get my trailer and load the car for Hastings on Wednesday and then head there on Thursday. If I am able to get the slave changed it would have to be sometime in the next week or so.

I may have to chance using the car at Hastings if I can't get the slave changed before then or I suppose I could use my 14 GTS if my ACR continues to act up. I will try pumping the clutch some more and see how it behaves. It did seem somewhat better after doing this on Tuesday.

With it being a self bleeder setup... I would pump it about 200 times, or as many times as my leg could handle.

[ViperGeorge]

With it being a self bleeder setup... I would pump it about 200 times, or as many times as my leg could handle.

Yikes. I may have to recruit my wife. Wait that won't work she has COVID but fortunately she feels pretty good.

[camarochevy1970]

With it being a self bleeder setup... I would pump it about 200 times, or as many times as my leg could handle.

Yep, every self bleeder clutch I have had to bleed has been hundreds of clutch cycles to get the air out

[TKO MOTORSPORTS TEAM]

Steve, if you have a procedure for bleeding a Gen 5 clutch I would love to have a copy. gbatejan@gmail.com

Here is the " hot bleed" procedure we use on just about every thing from LMP cars to street cars in the pits or shop; gets you the best results quickly because it cycles all old fluid out and removes air on some difficult to bleed calipers and on the 5th gen viper gets the clutch fluid kinda partially changed. Its does require a friend and some coordination.

1. start at any wheel doesnt really matter. Dual bleeders doesn't matter what one you start with either. If your doing it in the hot pits ( not that you should but sh-t happens) do front corner closest to wall first; last should be rear corner closest to pit wall.
2. You will need a bleeder bottle 20oz or so with hose that fits bleeder nipples tightly. Use bleeder bottle with hook or loop to hold bottle on wheel studs or spindle while your bleeding. Plastic bleeder bottles with magnets to hold them not so great on hot as surface of the sun brake rotors
3. Have someone sit in car ready to pump brakes while your on the caliper bleeder
4. Open bleeder and have the person in driver seat pump brakes 4 times with the caliper bleeder open. Have them call out the pumps "1", "2", "3". On the forth pump have them push slowly down while you close the bleeder and you say " closed". Make sure you get the bleeder closed before the brake pedal hits bottom. Its takes a little time to get the coordination between person pumping the brakes and the person bleeding the brakes.
5. Check brake fluid reservoir fluid level and fill it. You will be changing all the fluid in the lines and calipers so make sure the reservoir or reservoirs are full when bleeding
6. On the 5th gen viper hold the clutch pedal down for a few seconds and pump a couple of times after your done bleeding the second corner brake caliper. This will get a little fresh fluid into the clutch slave.
7. Check brake fluid reservoir fluid level before you bleed last corner. Best bet is to over fill the brake fluid reservoir and then bleed the last corner. If you estimate correctly the brake fluid reservoir will be at correct level when your done bleeding last corner.

[ViperGeorge]

Here is the " hot bleed" procedure we use on just about every thing from LMP cars to street cars in the pits or shop; gets you the best results quickly because it cycles all old fluid out and removes air on some difficult to bleed calipers and on the 5th gen viper gets the clutch fluid kinda partially changed. Its does require a friend and some coordination.

1. start at any wheel doesnt really matter. Dual bleeders doesn't matter what one you start with either. If your doing it in the hot pits ( not that you should but sh-t happens) do front corner closest to wall first; last should be rear corner closest to pit wall.
2. You will need a bleeder bottle 20oz or so with hose that fits bleeder nipples tightly. Use bleeder bottle with hook or loop to hold bottle on wheel studs or spindle while your bleeding. Plastic bleeder bottles with magnets to hold them not so great on hot as surface of the sun brake rotors
3. Have someone sit in car ready to pump brakes while your on the caliper bleeder
4. Open bleeder and have the person in driver seat pump brakes 4 times with the caliper bleeder open. Have them call out the pumps "1", "2", "3". On the forth pump have them push slowly down while you close the bleeder and you say " closed". Make sure you get the bleeder closed before the brake pedal hits bottom. Its takes a little time to get the coordination between person pumping the brakes and the person bleeding the brakes.
5. Check brake fluid reservoir fluid level and fill it. You will be changing all the fluid in the lines and calipers so make sure the reservoir or reservoirs are full when bleeding
6. On the 5th gen viper hold the clutch pedal down for a few seconds and pump a couple of times after your done bleeding the second corner brake caliper. This will get a little fresh fluid into the clutch slave.
7. Check brake fluid reservoir fluid level before you bleed last corner. Best bet is to over fill the brake fluid reservoir and then bleed the last corner. If you estimate correctly the brake fluid reservoir will be at correct level when your done bleeding last corner.

Thanks, not sure I follow step 6 though. When you say after doing the second corner brake caliper do you mean after doing all four calipers or just the left two? I usually start passenger side rear caliper (inside bleeder then outside bleeder), then driver's side rear, then passenger side front, and last driver's side front. I've always been under the impression that you bleed the calipers furthest from the master and work your way closer. By the way I use a Motive pump bleeder so no need to have my wife pump, pump, pump, hold. She hated helping me bleed the brakes.

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How long does it take someone that knows what they are doing to change the slave cylinder?

[13COBRA]

Thanks, not sure I follow step 6 though. When you say after doing the second corner brake caliper do you mean after doing all four calipers or just the left two? I usually start passenger side rear caliper (inside bleeder then outside bleeder), then driver's side rear, then passenger side front, and last driver's side front. I've always been under the impression that you bleed the calipers furthest from the master and work your way closer. By the way I use a Motive pump bleeder so no need to have my wife pump, pump, pump, hold. She hated helping me bleed the brakes.

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How long does it take someone that knows what they are doing to change the slave cylinder?

When I did my Gen IV ACR and the VCC, it was 2-3 hours.

[TKO MOTORSPORTS TEAM]

Thanks, not sure I follow step 6 though. When you say after doing the second corner brake caliper do you mean after doing all four calipers or just the left two? I usually start passenger side rear caliper (inside bleeder then outside bleeder), then driver's side rear, then passenger side front, and last driver's side front. I've always been under the impression that you bleed the calipers furthest from the master and work your way closer. By the way I use a Motive pump bleeder so no need to have my wife pump, pump, pump, hold. She hated helping me bleed the brakes.

- - - Updated - - -

How long does it take someone that knows what they are doing to change the slave cylinder?

Second corner just means after you have bleed two calipers. When you hot bleed you dont have to start at farthest corner away from master cylinder. Sequence of bleeding the brakes is just efficiency ( fastest way)and safety. You want to start at the front and end in the back. That way your not in the way or get run over when the car leaves. You dont have to do it this way its just the way we do it so we have the same process every time. We dont use any type of pump or pressure bleeders. For a few reasons. 1. wastes brake fluid. 2.pressure bleeders are slow 3. Once the brake fluid is out of a hermetically sealed container it starts to pick up atmosphere. Any amount of atmosphere ( water) in the fluid lowers its boiling point, lower boiling point= air in fluid...air in fluid=BAD

Clutch slave change 4-5 hours roughly. If you have done it a few times. If you have never done it give yourself a day or two dont rush it

[ViperGeorge]

Second corner just means after you have bleed two calipers. When you hot bleed you dont have to start at farthest corner away from master cylinder. Sequence of bleeding the brakes is just efficiency ( fastest way)and safety. You want to start at the front and end in the back. That way your not in the way or get run over when the car leaves. You dont have to do it this way its just the way we do it so we have the same process every time. We dont use any type of pump or pressure bleeders. For a few reasons. 1. wastes brake fluid. 2.pressure bleeders are slow 3. Once the brake fluid is out of a hermetically sealed container it starts to pick up atmosphere. Any amount of atmosphere ( water) in the fluid lowers its boiling point, lower boiling point= air in fluid...air in fluid=BAD

Clutch slave change 4-5 hours roughly. If you have done it a few times. If you have never done it give yourself a day or two dont rush it

Got it thanks. I bleed the brakes in the garage or in the cold pits never in the hot pits. I have too much to live for. I like the Motive pressure bleeder as I don't really mind wasting some fluid. I always dispose of any fluid left in the pressure bleeder and I flush the lines. I never let it sit and I always use fresh fluid.

On another note, I just pumped the clutch pedal 200 times and started the car in both 1st and Reverse. Car didn't move. Maybe the problem was due to bad fluid in the slave cylinder?

[13COBRA]

Got it thanks. I bleed the brakes in the garage or in the cold pits never in the hot pits. I have too much to live for. I like the Motive pressure bleeder as I don't really mind wasting some fluid. I always dispose of any fluid left in the pressure bleeder and I flush the lines. I never let it sit and I always use fresh fluid.

On another note, I just pumped the clutch pedal 200 times and started the car in both 1st and Reverse. Car didn't move. Maybe the problem was due to bad fluid in the slave cylinder?

I would be very confident that it was.

I would go for a 30 minute drive with a lot of stops, and see if you see the issue arise again. Your co-driver might have been riding the clutch more than he thought.

[ViperGeorge]

I would be very confident that it was.

I would go for a 30 minute drive with a lot of stops, and see if you see the issue arise again. Your co-driver might have been riding the clutch more than he thought.

Haha, I love blaming things on my co-driver! That's always a good excuse for my poor driving!

[13COBRA]

Haha, I love blaming things on my co-driver! That's always a good excuse for my poor driving!

Haha I'm glad you caught my joke!

[TKO MOTORSPORTS TEAM]

Got it thanks. I bleed the brakes in the garage or in the cold pits never in the hot pits. I have too much to live for. I like the Motive pressure bleeder as I don't really mind wasting some fluid. I always dispose of any fluid left in the pressure bleeder and I flush the lines. I never let it sit and I always use fresh fluid.

On another note, I just pumped the clutch pedal 200 times and started the car in both 1st and Reverse. Car didn't move. Maybe the problem was due to bad fluid in the slave cylinder?

Yes most likely the 200 pumps did the trick. The self bleeding system idea does work its just very alpha romeo-ish is application

[Jack B]

I hear you on all of that, there are pros and cons to being the one holding the bag, ha! I didn't know you got into the 10's, that's fantastic! Nice work! Drag racing these cars can be challenging, especially when your handcuffed to the OE based throttle controls ala the Factory/Mopar/HPT ECU.



I'll try to bump him also to let him know you're trying to reach him. The good ones are always busy, but it's at least a secondary option that can be vouched for.



Sure, the reservoir is just that, so it's pretty simplistic in application. For someone doing as much hard driving as your are with the OLOA stuff having a bleed style slave and separate reservoir may not be a bad investment.



I think at this point it's worth pulling the clutch down anyways given the odd characteristic that developed. A piece of foreign object dragging in between the discs could also cause this, even though that sounds awfully unlikely. But once there, it's not that much more effort to pull the clutch assembly and clean it out (de-dust it) and reinstall for peace of mind, especially if the installer is familiar with the process. The measurements are important, and that said to date so long as the right parts were being used with the right application there has never been a single one not in spec - but certainly a necessary step to ensure all will be well prior to buttoning it up.

Don't you think it would be good to know what that clearance is, just takes an extra ten minutes?

[Arizona Vipers]

For what it's worth it took me about 3 years of hard track use, with big power to cook my clutch fluid to the point it wouldn't shift anymore. I bleed the brakes every track weekend though, not sure how much that helps.

[Jack B]

For what it's worth it took me about 3 years of hard track use, with big power to cook my clutch fluid to the point it wouldn't shift anymore. I bleed the brakes every track weekend though, not sure how much that helps.

That was my poin⁹t, with low hours, I think you want to knwn if it was shimed correctly.. Than, pull the clutch to check for issues.

[ViperGeorge]

I need to bleed the brakes this week after doing One Lap. I am wondering if using my Motive brake bleeder (which applies pressure to the brake reservoir) will force fluid out of the slave if I pump the clutch 200 times while the system is pressurized. No harm trying it I guess.

[ViperGeorge]

Bled the brakes with my Motive Power bleeder. I used a turkey baster to get as much old fluid out of the reservoir as possible then filled it with fresh Motul 600. Before doing the calipers I connected the Motive, pressurized it, and pumped the clutch 200 times. Then I bled the brakes starting with Right Rear, then Left Rear, Right Front, and finally Left Front. Also bled inside bleeder screw first and then bled the outer screw. Started car in the garage in both reverse and 1st, seems ok. I will have to drive it and get it warm to see if that makes a difference. Maybe tomorrow, dinner time now.

[ViperGeorge]

Well the problem is not fixed. I thought it was after power bleeding the brakes and pumping clutch 200 times under pressure. Problem seemed to disappear for a while. At the Viper Rendezvous it came back. Went to start the car in reverse with clutch fully depressed and it bucked backwards. Starts in neutral no problem. Jeff from Competition Motor Sports was there and I asked him about it. He said I should change the slave and master. He was confident that this would remedy the problem. He said they chased down a similar problem and it wasn't until they changed both that they resolved it. Now they automatically change both whenever the clutch is out for some reason.

[TKO MOTORSPORTS TEAM]

Well the problem is not fixed. I thought it was after power bleeding the brakes and pumping clutch 200 times under pressure. Problem seemed to disappear for a while. At the Viper Rendezvous it came back. Went to start the car in reverse with clutch fully depressed and it bucked backwards. Starts in neutral no problem. Jeff from Competition Motor Sports was there and I asked him about it. He said I should change the slave and master. He was confident that this would remedy the problem. He said they chased down a similar problem and it wasn't until they changed both that they resolved it. Now they automatically change both whenever the clutch is out for some reason.

Sounds like you may have a small internal system leak. Have you tried pumping the clutch pedal a few times and then see if you still have clutch drag at start up???

[ViperGeorge]

Sounds like you may have a small internal system leak. Have you tried pumping the clutch pedal a few times and then see if you still have clutch drag at start up???

I have not tried that but will.

[TKO MOTORSPORTS TEAM]

Another possible problem could be input shaft alignment. Any multi disc clutch your input shaft alignment with the crank has to be pretty dang close to perfect. When we install the nth moto clutches in vipers 9 times out of 10 we have to machine the bell housing for concentricity so the clutch and T/O bearing work correctly.