Clutch help

[ViperGeorge]

the clutch master cyl?

Here is a picture of the actuator.

Actuator.JPG

Is this the master cylinder?

[Jack B]

George'

It is highly unlikely that you need the mechanical linkage, qkq qctuator

Here is a picture of the actuator.

Actuator.JPG

Is this the master cylinder?

[ViperGeorge]

George'

It is highly unlikely that you need the mechanical linkage, qkq qctuator

Thanks Jack. So the actuator is actually only the linkage to the slave cylinder? Is it adjustable for pedal throw? The Nth Moto clutch grabs pretty high on my car, is there anyway to get it to grab a little lower?

[TKO MOTORSPORTS TEAM]

Thanks Jack but what is the actuator?

The slave cylinder has 2 parts 1 the throw out bearing , aka: T/O bearing, clutch release bearing. 2. The slave cylinder aka:" actuator", hydraulic clutch release cylinder. They sell the bearing and the " actuator" separately in some cases for the real cheap bastards. You should always replace both of them its cheap insurance. Terminology gets confusing when you have 3 vehicle languages describing same thing and they are all correct. Engineers call it one thing, parts guys call it another, and mechanics call it something else.

The clutch self bleeding on the 5th gen viper works ok for street applications, but will cause problems with any heavy street or track use. The greatest design feature of the system is when you cook your clutch fluid it co-mingles some of that fluid with your brake in the reservoir fluid. So now you have cooked clutch fluid in the brake reservoir and cooked fluid in the calipers. The only diabolical benefit to all this is that it forces you to hot bleed the brake system which kinda but not completely bleeds the clutch slave also.

[13COBRA]

Why wouldn't nth use a remote bleeder for the clutch?

[ViperGeorge]

The slave cylinder has 2 parts 1 the throw out bearing , aka: T/O bearing, clutch release bearing. 2. The slave cylinder aka:" actuator", hydraulic clutch release cylinder. They sell the bearing and the " actuator" separately in some cases for the real cheap bastards. You should always replace both of them its cheap insurance. Terminology gets confusing when you have 3 vehicle languages describing same thing and they are all correct. Engineers call it one thing, parts guys call it another, and mechanics call it something else.

The clutch self bleeding on the 5th gen viper works ok for street applications, but will cause problems with any heavy street or track use. The greatest design feature of the system is when you cook your clutch fluid it co-mingles some of that fluid with your brake in the reservoir fluid. So now you have cooked clutch fluid in the brake reservoir and cooked fluid in the calipers. The only diabolical benefit to all this is that it forces you to hot bleed the brake system which kinda but not completely bleeds the clutch slave also.

So do you think I need the actuator part that I pictured above? Do you know the part number for the T/O bearing? I can't find it. I did order the Slave Cylinder and the actuator (pictured above) from my local dealer. I should get them today or tomorrow. I did not order a separate T/O bearing. I will do if I can find the part number.

One of the online shops says the part I ordered is the slave cylinder and throw out bearing assembly.

[Steve M]

New slave should come with a new throwout bearing.

Can’t really comment on why yours grabs so high though…mine is right in the middle of the travel, very similar to stock.

[ViperGeorge]

New slave should come with a new throwout bearing.

Can’t really comment on why yours grabs so high though…mine is right in the middle of the travel, very similar to stock.

Hmmm. Mark Jorgensen says that every one they've put in grabs high. I wonder why this is? Wrong shim?

[TKO MOTORSPORTS TEAM]

Hmmm. Mark Jorgensen says that every one they've put in grabs high. I wonder why this is? Wrong shim?

We have installed quite few of the nth moto clutches and same thing Mark said they grab a little high. Great clutches though zero complaints. We have never had any problems with them and we have abused them quite bit.
You should be with what you ordered clutch slave and bearing. Price is also a good indicator. 150 buck or less and your getting a bearing only. 300 bucks or more your getting slave and bearing.

[TKO MOTORSPORTS TEAM]

Why wouldn't nth use a remote bleeder for the clutch?

We have built a few remote bleeders for the 5th gen clutch slaves for some in house race stuff. Definitely makes bleeding clutch much easier and function much better. Not sure how many people really need to bleed their 5th gen clutch that often that it would make sense. Its not an easy install or cheap upgrade part so we never really released it or promoted it.

[Arizona Vipers]

Changing the break fluid alone doesn't get all the clutch fluid out, then tranny needs to be unbolted to do this. This sounds like mine when I had cooked clutch fluid.

[13COBRA]

We have built a few remote bleeders for the 5th gen clutch slaves for some in house race stuff. Definitely makes bleeding clutch much easier and function much better. Not sure how many people really need to bleed their 5th gen clutch that often that it would make sense. Its not an easy install or cheap upgrade part so we never really released it or promoted it.

I feel like even the hobbyist at the track should have a remote bleeder.

[TKO MOTORSPORTS TEAM]

Changing the break fluid alone doesn't get all the clutch fluid out, then tranny needs to be unbolted to do this. This sounds like mine when I had cooked clutch fluid.

You can bleed the clutch completely in the car without removing trans. Its a pain in the ass process and need to build special tool but it can be done.

[TKO MOTORSPORTS TEAM]

I feel like even the hobbyist at the track should have a remote bleeder.

Alot of people hobbyist, amateur and even pro overlook bleeding the clutch until its problem . Anything hydraulic you have to pitch the old saying " if it aint broke dont fix it" right out the window. Preventative maintenance is the key to hydraulics and a few other things. Most racecars with hydraulic clutches you bleed anywhere 2-15 hours of use depending on application or sometimes car personality.

[13COBRA]

Alot of people hobbyist, amateur and even pro overlook bleeding the clutch until its problem . Anything hydraulic you have to pitch the old saying " if it aint broke dont fix it" right out the window. Preventative maintenance is the key to hydraulics and a few other things. Most racecars with hydraulic clutches you bleed anywhere 2-15 hours of use depending on application or sometimes car personality.

Yep. I do mine every other weekend.

[Nth Moto]

Good talking with you today George, and I hope our conversation and recommendation gets you going down the right path. Based on the responses here it seems like my thoughts have already been laid out by several knowledgeable members, so that's great to see.

Why wouldn't nth use a remote bleeder for the clutch?

There isn't a great way to do this on the Gen 5 without getting into a different slave, or machining one, and more lines/fittings/etc that would just increase the cost higher than what some people already feel like is "a lot" for a clutch. Those that have experience with remote bleeders, such as yourself, would have a valid reason as to why you would want one, and therefore justify that cost. For 90% of enthusiasts the self bleeding design does the job just fine and dandy, and also is WAY less tech support on our side for the average joe installer/technician.

Hmmm. Mark Jorgensen says that every one they've put in grabs high. I wonder why this is? Wrong shim?

The height of the release is a perception thing in my experience - two different people will report two different release positions based upon their perceived leg movement rather than actual pedal movement, for instance. Our clutch is designed to release between the middle to the upper portion of the pedal travel, so that the clutch opens early and allow shifting to happen with less wear to the synchronizer rings - something the OEM clutch design will sacrifice to make the car easier to drive for the casual person.

We have built a few remote bleeders for the 5th gen clutch slaves for some in house race stuff. Definitely makes bleeding clutch much easier and function much better. Not sure how many people really need to bleed their 5th gen clutch that often that it would make sense. Its not an easy install or cheap upgrade part so we never really released it or promoted it.

Yup, nailed it. The self bleeder really does quite well for a large majority of users - but for those that even know they exist and why, they may prefer to have it.

Changing the break fluid alone doesn't get all the clutch fluid out, then tranny needs to be unbolted to do this. This sounds like mine when I had cooked clutch fluid.

Fluid/slave seems like the likely culprit, especially since it is a developed issue over time/use. Clutch wear itself would be awfully hard to make it drag, rather than slip.

…mine is right in the middle of the travel, very similar to stock.

Steve, the Gen 4 spacer is different based on the different slave cylinder model used in it compared to the Gen 5. There are also different cover heights based on MFG dates of the clutch which would alter the appearance of the slave spacer. No matter to any of that though, if the directions are followed as you have shown everyone the math process and the target dimension are the same, so that's how we can know if the install was done with the right parts/effort.

[Steve M]

Steve, the Gen 4 spacer is different based on the different slave cylinder model used in it compared to the Gen 5. There are also different cover heights based on MFG dates of the clutch which would alter the appearance of the slave spacer. No matter to any of that though, if the directions are followed as you have shown everyone the math process and the target dimension are the same, so that's how we can know if the install was done with the right parts/effort.

I suspected that was the case.

I'm fortunate that I have the tools and ability to turn my own wrenches...I know exactly what was done, and more importantly how it was done. Unfortunately, I also know who to blame if something goes wrong.

I can say for certain that when it works, it works quite well (the Nth Moto clutch). I've beat the piss out of mine at the drag strip over the past several years, and it's never skipped a beat. Even managed to get my junk into the 10s in the quarter mile a couple of times. Can't say the same about the OEM or McLeod RST clutches that were also used to try and achieve the same goal.

[ViperGeorge]

Good talking with you today George, and I hope our conversation and recommendation gets you going down the right path. Based on the responses here it seems like my thoughts have already been laid out by several knowledgeable members, so that's great to see.

Aaron, thanks for the advice. While I will tackle many mechanical things on the Viper, pulling the trans out is beyond my capabilities or desires. I have reached out to Cody at Chapman Auto Performance as you suggested. Hopefully he calls back today or tomorrow. Slave cylinder was ordered yesterday with expedited shipping. Warehouse supposedly had them so I should see it tomorrow.

For those following this thread, Josh at Nth Moto recommended pumping the heck out of the clutch to try and move any bad fluid out of the slave. I pumped it maybe 60-70 times or more. I've only started the car a couple of times since but it did seem better. Either way I'm going to try and get the slave cylinder changed prior to the Viper Rendezvous in Hastings, NE in early June. 3R Racing couldn't get me in prior to June so maybe Chapman can.

[Steve M]

I'd pump it even more than that.

Obviously not apples to apples, but when I bleed mine (with a remote bleeder), I've found that pumping the pedal many, many times during the process achieves the best results.

I also use a pressure bleeder.

What I do:

- Pressurize the system with the pressure bleeder
- Crack open the remote bleeder, and let some fluid come out
- Close the bleeder
- Hop behind the wheel and pump the pedal ~50 times
- Open the bleeder to let some more fluid through
- Repeat until I've moved about 0.5-1L of new fluid through the system.

I probably end up pumping the pedal 200-300 times during that process. It gets some nasty stuff out, and the clutch works like a charm afterwards.

When the fluid starts to get nasty, I can always tell because my first few 1-2 shifts during a warm up from a cold start will be notchy. With clean fluid, that doesn't happen.

[ViperGeorge]

I'd pump it even more than that.

Obviously not apples to apples, but when I bleed mine (with a remote bleeder), I've found that pumping the pedal many, many times during the process achieves the best results.

I also use a pressure bleeder.

What I do:

- Pressurize the system with the pressure bleeder
- Crack open the remote bleeder, and let some fluid come out
- Close the bleeder
- Hop behind the wheel and pump the pedal ~50 times
- Open the bleeder to let some more fluid through
- Repeat until I've moved about 0.5-1L of new fluid through the system.

I probably end up pumping the pedal 200-300 times during that process. It gets some nasty stuff out, and the clutch works like a charm afterwards.

When the fluid starts to get nasty, I can always tell because my first few 1-2 shifts during a warm up from a cold start will be notchy. With clean fluid, that doesn't happen.

Problem is that on a Gen 5 there is no clutch bleeder so it is very difficult to separately bleed the clutch. The clutch shares the fluid with the brake system so brake fluid that gets cooked on track can eventually make its way to the slave cylinder. I'm not a fan of this design. I wonder if you could add a Gen 4 clutch reservoir to the Gen 5 and separate the two systems.

[ViperGeorge]

Nick is correct...the stock Gen V has no clutch bleeder. It shares the brake reservoir with the brakes. Supposedly the design of the plumbing automatically rids the clutch hydraulic line of any air.

As you might guess, one can disconnect the line to bleed the system.

George, do you need a few screen shots of this procedure as outlined on the 2014 CD for the the stock system?

Steve, if you have a procedure for bleeding a Gen 5 clutch I would love to have a copy. gbatejan@gmail.com

[Jack B]

George

To reinforce what Aaron said. mine engages high also. That is the way you want it, hard shifting is improved and it is easier on the trans.

Make sure they measure the slave clearance prior to removing the clutch. That could save you from pulling the clutch.


\\

Hmmm. Mark Jorgensen says that every one they've put in grabs high. I wonder why this is? Wrong shim?

[Nth Moto]

I suspected that was the case.

I'm fortunate that I have the tools and ability to turn my own wrenches...I know exactly what was done, and more importantly how it was done. Unfortunately, I also know who to blame if something goes wrong.

I can say for certain that when it works, it works quite well (the Nth Moto clutch). I've beat the piss out of mine at the drag strip over the past several years, and it's never skipped a beat. Even managed to get my junk into the 10s in the quarter mile a couple of times. Can't say the same about the OEM or McLeod RST clutches that were also used to try and achieve the same goal.

I hear you on all of that, there are pros and cons to being the one holding the bag, ha! I didn't know you got into the 10's, that's fantastic! Nice work! Drag racing these cars can be challenging, especially when your handcuffed to the OE based throttle controls ala the Factory/Mopar/HPT ECU.

Aaron, thanks for the advice. While I will tackle many mechanical things on the Viper, pulling the trans out is beyond my capabilities or desires. I have reached out to Cody at Chapman Auto Performance as you suggested. Hopefully he calls back today or tomorrow. Slave cylinder was ordered yesterday with expedited shipping. Warehouse supposedly had them so I should see it tomorrow.

For those following this thread, Josh at Nth Moto recommended pumping the heck out of the clutch to try and move any bad fluid out of the slave. I pumped it maybe 60-70 times or more. I've only started the car a couple of times since but it did seem better. Either way I'm going to try and get the slave cylinder changed prior to the Viper Rendezvous in Hastings, NE in early June. 3R Racing couldn't get me in prior to June so maybe Chapman can.

I'll try to bump him also to let him know you're trying to reach him. The good ones are always busy, but it's at least a secondary option that can be vouched for.

Problem is that on a Gen 5 there is no clutch bleeder so it is very difficult to separately bleed the clutch. The clutch shares the fluid with the brake system so brake fluid that gets cooked on track can eventually make its way to the slave cylinder. I'm not a fan of this design. I wonder if you could add a Gen 4 clutch reservoir to the Gen 5 and separate the two systems.

Sure, the reservoir is just that, so it's pretty simplistic in application. For someone doing as much hard driving as your are with the OLOA stuff having a bleed style slave and separate reservoir may not be a bad investment.

George

To reinforce what Aaron said. mine engages high also. That is the way you want it, hard shifting is improved and it is easier on the trans.

Make sure they measure the slave clearance prior to removing the clutch. That could save you from pulling the clutch.
\\

I think at this point it's worth pulling the clutch down anyways given the odd characteristic that developed. A piece of foreign object dragging in between the discs could also cause this, even though that sounds awfully unlikely. But once there, it's not that much more effort to pull the clutch assembly and clean it out (de-dust it) and reinstall for peace of mind, especially if the installer is familiar with the process. The measurements are important, and that said to date so long as the right parts were being used with the right application there has never been a single one not in spec - but certainly a necessary step to ensure all will be well prior to buttoning it up.

[13COBRA]

Aaron, thanks for the advice. While I will tackle many mechanical things on the Viper, pulling the trans out is beyond my capabilities or desires. I have reached out to Cody at Chapman Auto Performance as you suggested. Hopefully he calls back today or tomorrow. Slave cylinder was ordered yesterday with expedited shipping. Warehouse supposedly had them so I should see it tomorrow.

For those following this thread, Josh at Nth Moto recommended pumping the heck out of the clutch to try and move any bad fluid out of the slave. I pumped it maybe 60-70 times or more. I've only started the car a couple of times since but it did seem better. Either way I'm going to try and get the slave cylinder changed prior to the Viper Rendezvous in Hastings, NE in early June. 3R Racing couldn't get me in prior to June so maybe Chapman can.

While not super convenient, I can definitely get you in before Hastings if you run out of options. Located in Kansas City, it's not necessarily your backyard, but if it comes down to making the event or not making the event, I can get you handled.

[ViperGeorge]

While not super convenient, I can definitely get you in before Hastings if you run out of options. Located in Kansas City, it's not necessarily your backyard, but if it comes down to making the event or not making the event, I can get you handled.

Really appreciate the offer. Let me see what Chapman says.