Do you track your genV

[02192viper]

I agree the numbers are under 10% and probably under 5%. And I shudder to think how much it is actually costing per hour to run on the track. Just track insurance for 1 day is over $800 now let alone front tires lasting less than 3 days. Occasionally there is a group that goes down to Thunderhill (was supposed to be about 8-11 vipers last October and wouldn’t you know it the first storm of the year shot that to hell). I’ve run Laguna about 8 times now and the most I’ve seen on any day is 3 I believe. Half the time I’m the only viper there. Had a guy come over last time at Laguna (he apparently also has a 16 ACRE) and thought I was crazy for tracking it and then asked how it was on the track lol. My only wish is that I had started going to the track years ago! I’m having a blast and just hoping I can keep bringing it home looking as amazing as it did before each and every track day.

[02192viper]

ETD4-12Laguna-M033Viper-6288.jpg

[Lawineer]

That's a dangerous game you are playing lol

I never actually add up all the costs from track time. Cost for items to make the car perform, yes. I have full spreadsheets. But I try not to actually add up what I've spent on consumables. I'm not wealthy enough to not care about those costs, but if I can leave myself blind to the amount of years earlier I could retire from NOT spending that moneys I'd not feel great. Ignorance is bliss!

I started noticing it and did the math. That's why I have my BRZ.
I haven't driven it as much as I would like, but I bet I've saved more in operational cost on that car that it cost me by now. Plus, my learning curve sky rocketed, and that was compared to the C7.

I agree the numbers are under 10% and probably under 5%. And I shudder to think how much it is actually costing per hour to run on the track. Just track insurance for 1 day is over $800 now let alone front tires lasting less than 3 days. Occasionally there is a group that goes down to Thunderhill (was supposed to be about 8-11 vipers last October and wouldn’t you know it the first storm of the year shot that to hell). I’ve run Laguna about 8 times now and the most I’ve seen on any day is 3 I believe. Half the time I’m the only viper there. Had a guy come over last time at Laguna (he apparently also has a 16 ACRE) and thought I was crazy for tracking it and then asked how it was on the track lol. My only wish is that I had started going to the track years ago! I’m having a blast and just hoping I can keep bringing it home looking as amazing as it did before each and every track day.

3-400 difference Gen V's on the track is probably about right. 10% would be a pretty high number for a "true" production car; I can't think of another model that would even even be 5% unless you only count the track variants (ie: GT3RS vs 911), but that would be like only counting the ACRs or something.

If you guys want to come to Dallas, I am a member at Eagles Canyon Raceway. I think it's only a few grand to rent the entire track during the week. I'm thinking $7500? It might be even less. It's been freshly repaved and it's pretty awesome. Most importantly, it's one of the safest tracks I've ever seen. While "anything can happen" there is only one wall (main pit wall) and it's not a sketchy corner- sharp turn in and wide exit (again, anything can happen). We can also get "real" coaches- not just HPDE instructors for fairly cheap. For those of you that have only done HPDE with instructors that only HPDE instructors, the difference is huge.

There's also a 700 acre gun club across the street that has everything from sporting clays to pistols to 800 (maybe 1000 now) yard rifle range.


edit: video of track
https://youtu.be/XcKILy2Ics4?t=164
It's fun in the viper. There are definitely some good turns for aero (Turn 6 and 10 stick out in my head). I think I was about 95mph on street tires going into 6 and similar in 10, no wing or splitter (just diffuser). Cant imagine what it would be in an ACR on slicks.

[RedTanRT/10]

02192 Viper, hoper to see you at Laguna. I try to find the 105db weekends. There's a good number of NorCal Vipers that track and we get a bunch from SoCal to come up from time to time.

Here's a pic from June '20, 5-6 from SoCal in this picture and there was another 5-6 from NorCal parked farther out. Take care and hope to see you this June! Mike




Laguna 6.17.20 (2).jpg

[02192viper]

Mike, I guess we have just been missing each other out at Laguna. I have only run the 105db days out there and they don’t have that many of them. Looking forward to seeing the SoCal crew out there someday!

[StrokerAce]

I never have but want to. Anyone in FL want to give me some instruction? I'm about 1.5 hours from Sebring.

Hopefully have some new tires on in the coming weeks along with the fluids replaced.

[Lawineer]

I never have but want to. Anyone in FL want to give me some instruction? I'm about 1.5 hours from Sebring.

Hopefully have some new tires on in the coming weeks along with the fluids replaced.

Viper is a horrible car to learn to track on, lol

[StrokerAce]

Viper is a horrible car to learn to track on, lol

It's either that or the other cars in my SIG.

[Lawineer]

It's either that or the other cars in my SIG.

Ram it?

[Racingswh]

I never have but want to. Anyone in FL want to give me some instruction? I'm about 1.5 hours from Sebring.

Hopefully have some new tires on in the coming weeks along with the fluids replaced.

I suspect Brian Rosati would help you. He knows Sebring well. A couple class track records there I believe in cars with decent power. I would see if I can make an introduction if you're interested?

[CC51]

Hi there's a Willow Springs track day through Spring Fling Speed Festival Thursday April 21,2022 it's mostly mopars but anyone can come. There's a couple run groups. Alltimeracing.com $375

[StrokerAce]

I suspect Brian Rosati would help you. He knows Sebring well. A couple class track records there I believe in cars with decent power. I would see if I can make an introduction if you're interested?

Thank you! I'll shoot you a PM.

[Lawineer]

Thank you! I'll shoot you a PM.

BTW: Most tracks have some shop that will rent you a car. Or just ask around. Someone will rent you spec miata or BRZ or older 3 series or something for $1000 a day or something. You'll eat up more in fuel tires and brakes in the Viper.

[ViperGeorge]

BTW: Most tracks have some shop that will rent you a car. Or just ask around. Someone will rent you spec miata or BRZ or older 3 series or something for $1000 a day or something. You'll eat up more in fuel tires and brakes in the Viper.

I've rented a spec Miata to learn a new track that was far from home. Since a Miata is a momentum car I found that I basically had to relearn the track when in the higher powered Viper. The lack of power requires you to really maintain speed in a Miata since it takes the car far longer to accelerate than a Viper. It's really light weight allows you to drive into corners without being too heavy on the brakes if you use them at all.

My personal view, probably not shared by everyone, is that I would not learn to track in a Miata or lower powered car if your ultimate aim is to drive the Viper on track. The Gen 5 is actually pretty easy to drive on track. Yes it has enormous potential but you don't need to push the car to the limit when you are learning. A good instructor and some proper classroom work should allow you to enjoy a first time track experience in the Viper. Yes tires, brakes, and fuel will be more expensive in a Viper than a Miata but so what? We own these cars in spite of this because they are such great performance cars and offer an exceptional driving experience. I've been driving and tracking Vipers for over 20 years and I still get a rush when I get behind the wheel.

I say take the Viper, don't overdrive it, listen to your instructor, and build speed gradually. You should also watch Youtube videos of the track from a car similar to a Viper - Corvette or Porsche maybe. You need to learn the track before you can start to build speed. Your first sessions on track should be mostly focused on that.

Well that is my opinion for what its worth.

[Lawineer]

I'd strongly disagree, as would almost every coach/instructor but to each their own.

If you just want to do one track day to just enjoy your car, that's a different story. If you want to build skill that you can use to more enjoy your viper, I'd consider a lower power car.

[ViperGeorge]

I'd strongly disagree, as would almost every coach/instructor but to each their own.

If you just want to do one track day to just enjoy your car, that's a different story. If you want to build skill that you can use to more enjoy your viper, I'd consider a lower power car.

Well as I said not everyone would agree with me. I've also instructed but I still believe that lower powered cars don't take the same line as a high powered car. Because a high powered car carries more speed braking points are way different, the higher powered car tends to drift out further on corner exit, and they take more care in applying power exiting a corner. I fear if you learn a track in a Miata that you could end up in trouble the first time you drive it in your Viper. But as I said I know that many people wouldn't agree with me. It seems to be the accepted norm to start on a low power car. This has always seemed counter intuitive to me if your ultimate goal is to track a Viper.

But to each their own.

[Lawineer]

Momentum and power ("point and shoot") cars do take slightly different lines, depending on the turn, but they're not night and day. Heck, F1 cars are point and shoot. They are more of a "V" than a "U" in some turns. You might go out further in a momentum car or less. But again, it's the driving skill that's being developed much quicker.
If you drive a viper like a miata (carry more speed but go longer through the turn), you may just be slower than if you squared off the turns more.

Braking points change from car to car to car. You're just a fool if you try to carry them one car to another. I didn't push it in the Viper, but my C7 brakes at the same time as my BRZ, despite having much more speed, because it had way better brakes, way wider tires and could carry much more corner speed. I bet the Viper would be around the same braking point as C7 (but start out with more speed) if I was pushing it. The Miata had the earliest braking points simply because it had the skinniest tires and no splitter to help it (and the worst tires).
Braking points will literally change from day to day, even within a day. You need to feel that out and not memorize that. Heck, until your tires warm up there is a big difference.

I've started on higher hp vehicles on both bikes and in cars. Both times, my learning curve increased dramatically when I dropped down to a lower power vehicle (600rr and Miata). I know very good drivers who pick up time by hopping in slower cars from time to time.

[jrubin80]

Thought I would toss this out there as it was a full NASA TT season in the viper. Using Girodisc setup with Raybestos ST43s and Toyo RRs. Fuel was calculated at $4/gal. There are far stickier tires but this is what kept me in TT2 last season. Each set of RRs was capable of 2 full weekends and 2 practice days at front of group speed. On top of mine would be fuel and snacks to and from the track in a tow vehicle. I think tires would be the largest expense if I switched to something else. Our lapping days at the local track are 4 thirty-minute sessions per half day. So lots of track time. I never calculated expenses before I started with NASA, but I was doing 2 half days a week during the summer and I imagine frequent lapping is very very close if not beyond the expense of occasional lapping and time trials. All just my experience from the brief time I've had the Viper.

[ViperGeorge]

Braking points change from car to car to car. You're just a fool if you try to carry them one car to another.

Or inexperienced, which is my point. Switching from a slow car to a fast car without the appropriate experience could result in a bad outcome. So unless he stays in the Miata until he is "experienced" I think he is better off starting in the Viper. Vipers, especially Gen 5s with the nannies are not that hard to drive on the track and they are a heck of a lot of fun. I attended race school at Road Atlanta using Panoz race cars, before I got heavily into tracking the Viper. The Panoz cars were definitely not Miatas and were actually very fast. I guess that experience formed my point of view as to a good car to learn on. Any car can cause problems if the driver is an idiot. A good instructor is a requirement.

Again, I respect your point of view, it just isn't mine. I also realize that I may be in the minority with my views but I'm still enjoying the heck out of the Viper on track and the thought of going to a Miata or similar car wouldn't float my boat.

[Lawineer]

Thought I would toss this out there as it was a full NASA TT season in the viper. Using Girodisc setup with Raybestos ST43s and Toyo RRs. Fuel was calculated at $4/gal. There are far stickier tires but this is what kept me in TT2 last season. Each set of RRs was capable of 2 full weekends and 2 practice days at front of group speed. On top of mine would be fuel and snacks to and from the track in a tow vehicle. I think tires would be the largest expense if I switched to something else. Our lapping days at the local track are 4 thirty-minute sessions per half day. So lots of track time. I never calculated expenses before I started with NASA, but I was doing 2 half days a week during the summer and I imagine frequent lapping is very very close if not beyond the expense of occasional lapping and time trials. All just my experience from the brief time I've had the Viper.

Cool to see broken down. You only used one set of tires for 8 events and all those sessions? Don't they just heat cycle out? That's what happens to me after about 10 sessions and I can get a little more out of them, but it's not ideal. That's obviously biggest difference between our operational cost calculations.

How many hours do you estimate that is?

Or inexperienced, which is my point. Switching from a slow car to a fast car without the appropriate experience could result in a bad outcome. So unless he stays in the Miata until he is "experienced" I think he is better off starting in the Viper. Vipers, especially Gen 5s with the nannies are not that hard to drive on the track and they are a heck of a lot of fun. I attended race school at Road Atlanta using Panoz race cars, before I got heavily into tracking the Viper. The Panoz cars were definitely not Miatas and were actually very fast. I guess that experience formed my point of view as to a good car to learn on. Any car can cause problems if the driver is an idiot. A good instructor is a requirement.

Again, I respect your point of view, it just isn't mine. I also realize that I may be in the minority with my views but I'm still enjoying the heck out of the Viper on track and the thought of going to a Miata or similar car wouldn't float my boat.

Oh, I didn't mean it to be condosending or insulting. I wasn't implying you do that; in fact my unspoken assumption was that you dont, which is why I said only a fool would do that.

I tracked my C7 a lot, even despite having a dedicated track car. My buddy has a GT3RS and we loved running the two together. Street cars can be fun in that sense. It was also just really easy to drive. Street cars (almost all) understeer, lol. It's nice never having to worry about the rear end coming around. I drove it hard, but I wasn't ever *really* running hard, and in some turns I intentionally left a tenth or two on the table. It was also nice just dropping it off at the dealership on the way home with helmet and driving gloves and shoes in the passenger seat, hopping in a Tahoe and getting the car back in a few days when/if anything went wrong.

The BRZ has moderate high speed understeer and is neutral (read: it can understeer or oversteer) at slow to medium speeds. It's got you tied down to the race seat with a halo. It's a pain to get in and out of. You have to constantly watch all gauges. I drove it more or less as hard as I could seeking every tenth I can find. I dont know how to explain it, but it was work vs. leisure tracking. It's different.

I agree that if he just want to do it once to have fun in his awesome car, he should drive the Viper. If he wants to develop driving skill, it's not a good choice to learn in.

One thing about nannies, they can get you into some very bad habits. I did the C7 driving school thing. They let me do the "advanced" driving school. But they made you keep nannies on. They said it doesn't interfere- bullshit. I was running very similar lap times to instructors when they had them on. They ran several seconds faster with them off. It's what I call "linear driving." You're just hitting the line. No rotation on the gas or brake, no driving a little lose, no "micro adjustments" through the turn, etc. It's also what HPDE instructors do for you.
Well, by the end of the two days, I was absolutely just dive bombing into turns and just dropping the hammer on exit. Not consciously, but the nannies are pretty smooth and I didn't always notice them kicking in, so I'd just keep going harder and harder.

My next track day in my car with nannies off was a disaster. It was the most frustrated I've EVER been at the track, including the day I put a car into a wall (lightly). I kept spinning off, messing up, etc. I am STILL very binary on the gas. I have trouble rolling on smooth. I eventually get the right exit speed, but I'm leaving 2 tenths in every turn due to speed through the turn. Even though it's only something like $1000 for 2 days with instruction to drive a C8 on track with instructors in Vegas, I won't go back. I picked up other stuff, but I'm not going to drive a car with nannies on the track again. Just ABS.

Again, this doesn't apply if his goal is a fun day in his car.

[ViperGeorge]

Cool to see broken down. You only used one set of tires for 8 events and all those sessions? Don't they just heat cycle out? That's what happens to me after about 10 sessions and I can get a little more out of them, but it's not ideal. That's obviously biggest difference between our operational cost calculations.

How many hours do you estimate that is?



Oh, I didn't mean it to be condosending or insulting. I wasn't implying you do that; in fact my unspoken assumption was that you dont, which is why I said only a fool would do that.

I tracked my C7 a lot, even despite having a dedicated track car. My buddy has a GT3RS and we loved running the two together. Street cars can be fun in that sense. It was also just really easy to drive. Street cars (almost all) understeer, lol. It's nice never having to worry about the rear end coming around. I drove it hard, but I wasn't ever *really* running hard, and in some turns I intentionally left a tenth or two on the table. It was also nice just dropping it off at the dealership on the way home with helmet and driving gloves and shoes in the passenger seat, hopping in a Tahoe and getting the car back in a few days when/if anything went wrong.

The BRZ has moderate high speed understeer and is neutral (read: it can understeer or oversteer) at slow to medium speeds. It's got you tied down to the race seat with a halo. It's a pain to get in and out of. You have to constantly watch all gauges. I drove it more or less as hard as I could seeking every tenth I can find. I dont know how to explain it, but it was work vs. leisure tracking. It's different.

I agree that if he just want to do it once to have fun in his awesome car, he should drive the Viper. If he wants to develop driving skill, it's not a good choice to learn in.

One thing about nannies, they can get you into some very bad habits. I did the C7 driving school thing. They let me do the "advanced" driving school. But they made you keep nannies on. They said it doesn't interfere- bullshit. I was running very similar lap times to instructors when they had them on. They ran several seconds faster with them off. It's what I call "linear driving." You're just hitting the line. No rotation on the gas or brake, no driving a little lose, no "micro adjustments" through the turn, etc. It's also what HPDE instructors do for you.
Well, by the end of the two days, I was absolutely just dive bombing into turns and just dropping the hammer on exit. Not consciously, but the nannies are pretty smooth and I didn't always notice them kicking in, so I'd just keep going harder and harder.

My next track day in my car with nannies off was a disaster. It was the most frustrated I've EVER been at the track, including the day I put a car into a wall (lightly). I kept spinning off, messing up, etc. I am STILL very binary on the gas. I have trouble rolling on smooth. I eventually get the right exit speed, but I'm leaving 2 tenths in every turn due to speed through the turn. Even though it's only something like $1000 for 2 days with instruction to drive a C8 on track with instructors in Vegas, I won't go back. I picked up other stuff, but I'm not going to drive a car with nannies on the track again. Just ABS.

Again, this doesn't apply if his goal is a fun day in his car.

I never thought you were calling me a fool. No offense taken. I first started tracking in 1999 with my RT/10. No nannies, no ABS. The Panoz cars they I used in racing school also did not have nannies and were quite fast. The Gen 5's nannies were designed (I know the engineer that designed them) as not to interfere unless you were really in trouble. They were track tested but yes a really fast driver would likely be faster with them off. That said, I run the track with them off. Even when I forget to turn them off (as you have to do every time you start the car) I rarely notice them intervening. However, I think a new driver on track can leave them on and they should only intervene if the car gets really out of shape.

I never fancied myself a professional race driver. I wouldn't say I'm slow on tracks I know but I know others are probably faster. For me, experience on a given track helps me go much faster. I'm not fast on tracks I don't know. That is one of the really hard things for me on the One Lap of America. You get one recon lap and then have to go fast. Others (mostly people that grew up doing autoX) can see the track for one lap and then do a blisteringly fast lap, that's not me. My co-driver and I place well when One Lap happens to hit one of our home tracks but this is not often. For me, I wish I would have started with autoX as it gives you the skill to learn a track layout very quickly. That would make me a heck of a lot faster on tracks I don't know.

If the OP intends to go racing or really hit the track heavily I would recommend he goes to a multiday racing school not just have an instructor for a track day. With a school like the one I went to at Road Atlanta you are immersed and get constant feedback on every turn. On the other hand if he just wants to hit the track occasionally in his Viper I say go for it.

[SRT_BluByU]

I've rented a spec Miata to learn a new track that was far from home. Since a Miata is a momentum car I found that I basically had to relearn the track when in the higher powered Viper. The lack of power requires you to really maintain speed in a Miata since it takes the car far longer to accelerate than a Viper. It's really light weight allows you to drive into corners without being too heavy on the brakes if you use them at all.

My personal view, probably not shared by everyone, is that I would not learn to track in a Miata or lower powered car if your ultimate aim is to drive the Viper on track. The Gen 5 is actually pretty easy to drive on track. Yes it has enormous potential but you don't need to push the car to the limit when you are learning. A good instructor and some proper classroom work should allow you to enjoy a first time track experience in the Viper. Yes tires, brakes, and fuel will be more expensive in a Viper than a Miata but so what? We own these cars in spite of this because they are such great performance cars and offer an exceptional driving experience. I've been driving and tracking Vipers for over 20 years and I still get a rush when I get behind the wheel.

I say take the Viper, don't overdrive it, listen to your instructor, and build speed gradually. You should also watch Youtube videos of the track from a car similar to a Viper - Corvette or Porsche maybe. You need to learn the track before you can start to build speed. Your first sessions on track should be mostly focused on that.

Well that is my opinion for what its worth.

I agreed completely..

[Mikey]

I agreed completely..

Do you have the part numbers? Found out the dealer near me has a Viper tech

[quickster2]

A bit off topic but before anyone tracks a car I would highly recommend Ross Bentley's Ultimate Speed Secrets book. Regardless of a Spec Miata or a Viper one needs to understand the nuances of track driving. The book really focus's on speed, performance, and winning, not necessarily winning the race but from within. It is an easy read as well.

[ViperGeorge]

why the last? has the event changed?

The event hasn't changed per se but the competition is now really nuts. There are car owners that hire professional drivers to run the tracks. The car owners do the transit legs but don't do the track stuff. The cars have gotten stupid fast as well. I guess I just don't find it as much fun as it used to be for me. I'm also getting too old for it.

The event is really challenging for car and drivers but honestly it is exhausting. Every day at a different track and every evening a several hundred mile road trip to the next track (sometimes as much as 700 miles). As I've posted in this thread I'm not the kind of driver that can see a track for one lap and then go stupid fast like the top drivers can. Problem is there are many more top drivers with that skill than there used to be so our overall finish has moved down over the years.

Also last year after running my Vipers for many years I told my co-driver it was his turn to bring a car. He has a Porsche turbo so I was hoping he would bring that. Instead he bought an Audi S5 with a tune and an automatic. Nice car over the road, a lot more comfortable than my ACR, but I hated it on track. Thing never knew what gear to be in and I didn't have experience using paddle shifters. So this year it is back to my ACR for a last hooray. We may still finish down the list but at least it will be more fun on track. My co-driver, a dear friend of 40+ years, has never been comfortable in my Viper on track. He is not used to such a high horsepower car as he races an old Porsche with maybe a couple hundred HP. So he tends to baby it around track. That's really ok with me, I'd rather have him go easy than wreck it. He is also like me though, he doesn't go fast until he knows the track. Last time we hit his home track in NJ he placed 9th, which for us was outstanding.