Learning to master the Gen V on the road course

[VENOM V]

I took a two-day private lesson at Ron Fellows School at Spring Mountain about a week ago. I had previously completed their Levels I and II courses and completed about 20 track days since. In Levels I and II, you learn all of the fundamentals of driving well on the track- heel-toe shifting, turn-in, apex, balance braking, visual scanning, the correct line, Etc.. I felt that I had a fundamental understanding of those skills, but wanted to take my abilities up a notch. To my surprise, I found out that if you drive your own car, a private lesson is about the same cost as a group lesson. This was a chance to take a private lesson with their chief instructor that I respect and communicate with well, Rick Malone. Track all to ourselves most of the time, custom designed curriculum? Hell yes!

Over the course of two days, we did a variety of things- lead/follow, Rick in the car with me driving, Rick driving, Rick in the tower looking down on me and coaching me over the radio, and lots of discussion in the classroom between sessions. At the beginning, one thing that really impressed me was the tremendous exit speed that Rick was able to achieve coming out of corners. I was late-braking and catching him at corner entry but he would then pull away at exit and yield an overall quicker lap. This helped me break bad habits I had learned of braking hard and late. It's better to brake earlier and then lighten pressure as you approach turn-in for lots of reasons. The car is less upset as you enter the corner because it's not recoiling from the hard braking. It's difficult to not over-brake if you brake at the last minute, which Rick proved to me. Plus, when you brake too late and hard, your tires will start to overheat and lose grip before you know it, and it's unnecessarily hard on your brakes as well. Believe me, I boiled the brake fluid three different times on Corvette Grand Sports previously in the school. Too many things to list- why one should try to sense and eliminate as much understeer as possible, because it scrubs speed and overheats your front tires; benefits of changing your line to create mini-straights between adjacent corners and in esses; using throttle and brake to correct your line instead of the steering wheel, Etc. Rick continually tuned the curriculum based on his observations of how I could improve.

I told him that one of my goals was to become as comfortable with the Viper at and beyond it's limits as I am in my Camaro and in Corvettes, which I have considerable track time from the Levels I and II courses. So after a couple of sessions on-track exercises, we hit the skid pad. And boy did we, non-stop for about an hour! We knew we were going to waste my half-spent R-compound tires in this exercise, so I had a set of new MPSCs ready to mount after the skid pad. We started out on the wet skid pad. It took Rick all of 5 minutes to have the Viper figured out. We did wet figure eights and tried to do circles (donuts) around a ring of cones. The point is to get the car sideways and drift it under control without knocking over cones. Well Rick did it, so shouldn't I be able to? Haha, after killing a few cones I progressed enough to move on to the dry skid pad.

Painted on the dry skid pad was a small oval course, with a big sweeper at one and and a tight corner at the other, and a kink in one of the straights. The beauty of this skid pad exercise is that you can drive the wheels off of it, spinning and losing control on occasion without any risk of hitting anything. I could never push the car this hard on a road course for fear of wrecking my snake. I worked on a couple of skills here- the first trying to fly around that oval as fast as I could. The other was to purposely get the car sideways and try to recover elegantly without going off track or spinning. It was surprisingly easy in the Viper. I had so much fun honing my car control skills that I didn't want to stop. At the concusion of this, I felt very comfortable with the Viper at the limit.

This will go against the grain of the most common misconception of the Viper - the Gen V is NOT difficult to control at the limit, no more difficult than my Camaro or a Vette. It handles exceptionally well, very well balanced before and at the limits. Rick had driven Vipers in the past, but never felt that they were as predictable and controllable as his bread and butter, the Corvette (he now pilots a C7 Z51 Vette in the school, and on occasion a C6 ZR1). After tracking my Viper and testing it's behavior at length on the skid pad, Rick declared that they had "fixed the Viper." He was very complimentary of it's handling. He may not have been a fan of the Viper on the track previously, but he clearly is now. I am too in case you didn't notice, LOL.

I will admit that in the past I had felt that the Gen V Viper was wicked fast but a little harder to track at it's limits than it should be. Here's why:
1. It was hammered into my head by the damn press! And because of the high cost of the car, I erred on the conservative side on track. I think the press is stuck in this line of thinking, in reality the Gen V is a dream on the track.
2. You need to have Stability Control in Track Mode, which defeats traction control and leaves stability control at a reduced level. I had previously tracked in Sport Mode. If the rear end steps out, a driver is typically supposed to increase throttle in order to weight transfer to the rear so that you have traction to bring the car under control. But in Sport Mode, the traction control is too invasive, it cuts throttle so that you can't use throttle to get yourself out of trouble. Instead, it puts you into a fairly violent "tank slapper" fishtail. But once in Track Mode, the car behaves entirely different, it's very easy to control. Rick and I both agreed that the stability control in Track Mode is so non-invasive that you don't notice it, even when you do get a little sideways. Track Mode = problem solved. I will say for beginners, Sport Mode is probably more appropriate until you learn how to use throttle correctly when loose.
3. The Viper rotates at a faster rate when it becomes loose because it has a short wheel base and low polar moment of inertia (meaning that the mass of the car is biased towards the center of the car, not the front and rear). So when my Camaro becomes loose, I have more time to react because the rear end steps out slowly. The Viper steps out faster, so you need to have quick hands and feet. It's not hard to have quick hands and feet once you're used to it, and this becomes second nature with skidpad work. The best analogy is mouse sensitivity: If you've set your mouse with low sensitivity and then use someone else's computer with high sensitivity, at first it's difficult to control. Once you become used to the faster reacting mouse, it's a piece of cake to use. Make sense?

Perhaps the best take-away from this lesson is that I am now truly comfortable tracking the Viper hard. The car is so good at the limits, so well balanced, it's hard for me to see the need for an upgrade such as the MCS. About the only improvement I feel it needs is a little more aero at some tracks, and the carbon aero package solves that. Yes, it's that good.

[FLATOUT]

Outstanding! I love reading your track posts. It would be a treat to study privately like that.

[Bruce H.]

Fantastic post, Todd! It sounds like you made terrific progress in both your skill level and understanding of the car's dynamics. You must be relieved to have cleared some imposing hurdles that would have been holding you back. And relieved to discover that the Gen V really is all that on track, and confirmed by someone who really knows. Congrats!

You also convincingly make the point that it's really important to get the car on a skid pad and slalom course designed for driver development, and to get professional instruction. Your previous driving schools and intensive track seat time really only prepared you for this major learning experience.

There is a reason the Gen V's did so well at Laguna Seca, and it wasn't simply because Randy's an excellent driver. But it's equally obvious why most automotive testers would never be able to access the performance from this car, and would always approach it with the deep fear that their lack of skill in this sort of car has created. Its at-the-limit performance may not be the easiest to access, but it must surely be the most rewarding.

You've provided some very useful information here...thank you for sharing.

Bruce

[Nine Ball]

Great write-up, Todd. I thoroughly enjoy reading the technical recollection of the weekend. They also serve to help those of us that do track the cars, maybe we pick up a hint or two when we share info. I need to get back out there soon.

[ViperSmith]

I am insanely jealous you all have such awesome tracks and learning programs out in CA...

[RedTanRT/10]

Hey Todd, nice write up and I know that had to be a blast at Spring Mountain in a one-on-one setting with your viper.

One thing I had always heard but never experienced is that the vetts, espcially the Z-06, was spooky at the limits. I think the viper is more of an urban legend on handling, if folks go back to autoweek, R&T, C&D from a couple of years ago, most say the viper is very predictible, but, has real high limits and once you cross them, your hauling ass, and that's the concern.

Just signed up for Buttonwillow Easter weekend, hope to see you there! Mike

[Steve M]

Rick Malone is a fantastic instructor...when I took the 3-day Corvette school a few years ago for my 30th birthday (gift from my wife), Rick rode shotgun with me for a few laps during one of the lapping sessions on the second day. I was having a hard time figuring out what I was doing wrong with the long sweepers, but he was very patient with me...at one point, he reached over from the passenger seat and grabbed the steering wheel and said "hold it here...steady on the gas...a little more...alright, now let off just a little...see how the car steered back towards the apex?" Someone could have told me that all day long, but having him show me by grabbing the wheel and showing me what to do achieved what would have taken me hours on end in only a few short seconds.

I wish I lived closer...I'd love to take mine around the track there a few laps. Great group of guys there...hell, I'd even settle for some skid pad time just so I could screw around without worrying about going off roading.

[Ohiotj]

Sounds like a very good time. Thanks for taking the time to write it up.

[MtnBiker]

Great writeup, thanks for taking the time. I appreciated the insight on braking into corners. I believe I have a tendency to hammer the brakes, and so I will attempt the method you prescribe of breaking earlier and keeping the car more balanced, and brakes and tires less abused. I am tracking at TWS next weekend.

[Shooter]

Sounds like you are having fun and learning to drive your car closer to the limit (increasing your limit). While I'm not 100% sold on that style of braking on a track, if it works for you, it's another tool in your collection. It does, however promote smooth braking, which, like you say, doesn't upset the car. Good write up.

[Simms]

Awesome read! You are having so much fun in your Gen V!

[V10LEE]

Nice writeup Todd. Sounds like you had another good time,and learned more on this trip.. Yes there's always improvements to be made.. I'm still trying to improve,and hone in my driving skills all the time.. It never stops..

One of the other reasons why the Viper spins on you so quick is because it's a very sprung,a stiff car.. Before doing karting , I can push my C6Z06 on the track much faster compared to my Viper because the Z has a more compliant suspension, Chassis.. It's softer.. The steering inputs are not as sensitive.. It is just like a kart. You will be very surprised how much a kart and a Viper are a like.. Now I can push my Viper pretty hard on the track now. Harder than the Z. Doing it with confidence.. You gotta come out, and drive one of my karts. We have an open practice day this Saturday. 2 run groups..

[rw99]

I was late-braking and catching him at corner entry but he would then pull away at exit and yield an overall quicker lap. This helped me break bad habits I had learned of braking hard and late. It's better to brake earlier and then lighten pressure as you approach turn-in for lots of reasons. The car is less upset as you enter the corner because it's not recoiling from the hard braking. It's difficult to not over-brake if you brake at the last minute, which Rick proved to me. Plus, when you brake too late and hard, your tires will start to overheat and lose grip before you know it, and it's unnecessarily hard on your brakes as well.

I am so guilty of this. When I first started with this car, I was destroying other cars in the braking zones and thought it was just ACR awesomeness. But then I started digging into my telemetry and seeing very mediocre exit speeds and disappointing top ends on subsequent straights. I have a bad habit that I'm still working on... I'll call it "Braking Bad"

Great write-up, Todd. Personal instruction in your own car really is the best way to go. Now I'm considering renting or borrowing a trailer to take my car to Spring Mountain and plug into the same sort of individualized instruction...

[Leslie]

WOW, what a write-up! that's a dream come true to have private instruction like that, I am jealous!!!

I also agree the notes about late braking are really good. It makes me re-think my approach on the back straight at Mid OH.

[mjorgensen]

Thing to remember about the braking zone is that once you are in transition to the corner you are still scrubbing speed (sliding) so if you utilize that last bit of slowing using the side load of the tire you will have better mid corner speed at the limit of the tire and a smoother base to transition to throttle off the corner, good instructor for pointing that out ;-)

[Stealth]

Nice write-up!

On the very few times I have had my Gen IV Coupe at a HPDE (3 days over 6 years I think), it was rock solid and excellent handling. It was actually much more solid and better handling than my C6Z--especially the steering (Z was too light in the steering).

Did your instructor (Rick Malone) have any comparative comments between the C6ZR1 and your Gen V Viper? Just curious.

[VENOM V]

Thanks all, it really was an exceptional learning experience. Highly recommended. Heck, even the Ron Fellows group lessons are top notch. What was really telling is after we completed the Level 1 course and went around the room, there wasn't a single participant that didn't feel like they had learned a ton! That includes rookies to experienced drivers (there was a HOD instructor present, for example) to guys that bought ZR1s and were given the Level 1 class with the car purchase. If you have a chance, Ron Fellows is quite an organization.

[Redsled]

Todd, what car are you bringing down to Buttonwillow this weekend? Like I mentioned the last time I rode in your Viper "Slow in, fast out" Glad to see you getting more comfortable in the Viper.

Thanks all, it really was an exceptional learning experience. Highly recommended. Heck, even the Ron Fellows group lessons are top notch. What was really telling is after we completed the Level 1 course and went around the room, there wasn't a single participant that didn't feel like they had learned a ton! That includes rookies to experienced drivers (there was a HOD instructor present, for example) to guys that bought ZR1s and were given the Level 1 class with the car purchase. If you have a chance, Ron Fellows is quite an organization.

[VENOM V]

Bruce, you nailed it on every point. To add to your point about the skid pad, I will be looking for opportunities to do skid pad practice again in the future. At Willow Springs for example, they have the "Budweiser Balcony" (no foolin!) which is a skid pad above the track on the hill. A friend of mine took his Viper up there and messed around during an HPDE day. Golden oppportunity to get to know the car's dynamics intimately.

Fantastic post, Todd! It sounds like you made terrific progress in both your skill level and understanding of the car's dynamics. You must be relieved to have cleared some imposing hurdles that would have been holding you back. And relieved to discover that the Gen V really is all that on track, and confirmed by someone who really knows. Congrats!

You also convincingly make the point that it's really important to get the car on a skid pad and slalom course designed for driver development, and to get professional instruction. Your previous driving schools and intensive track seat time really only prepared you for this major learning experience.

There is a reason the Gen V's did so well at Laguna Seca, and it wasn't simply because Randy's an excellent driver. But it's equally obvious why most automotive testers would never be able to access the performance from this car, and would always approach it with the deep fear that their lack of skill in this sort of car has created. Its at-the-limit performance may not be the easiest to access, but it must surely be the most rewarding.

You've provided some very useful information here...thank you for sharing.

Bruce

[VENOM V]

Hey Todd, nice write up and I know that had to be a blast at Spring Mountain in a one-on-one setting with your viper.

One thing I had always heard but never experienced is that the vetts, espcially the Z-06, was spooky at the limits. I think the viper is more of an urban legend on handling, if folks go back to autoweek, R&T, C&D from a couple of years ago, most say the viper is very predictible, but, has real high limits and once you cross them, your hauling ass, and that's the concern.

Just signed up for Buttonwillow Easter weekend, hope to see you there! Mike

Of all of the Vettes, I loved tracking the Z06 the most. Light, quick, hard to tell it wasn't as quick as a ZR1 and certainly was turning similar lap times. I never experienced any spookiness either.

I'm signed up for Buttonwillow as well, I'll look for you. Gotta see how the Camaro's new aero does on that flat track.

[VENOM V]

Rick Malone is a fantastic instructor...when I took the 3-day Corvette school a few years ago for my 30th birthday (gift from my wife), Rick rode shotgun with me for a few laps during one of the lapping sessions on the second day. I was having a hard time figuring out what I was doing wrong with the long sweepers, but he was very patient with me...at one point, he reached over from the passenger seat and grabbed the steering wheel and said "hold it here...steady on the gas...a little more...alright, now let off just a little...see how the car steered back towards the apex?" Someone could have told me that all day long, but having him show me by grabbing the wheel and showing me what to do achieved what would have taken me hours on end in only a few short seconds.

I wish I lived closer...I'd love to take mine around the track there a few laps. Great group of guys there...hell, I'd even settle for some skid pad time just so I could screw around without worrying about going off roading.

LOL, he did the same with me. It's unsettling when someone says "trust me," then grabs the wheel and tells you to accelerate! Every time he did that it freaked me out a bit, but I trusted the jedi master and learned a heck of a lot.

[VENOM V]

Great writeup, thanks for taking the time. I appreciated the insight on braking into corners. I believe I have a tendency to hammer the brakes, and so I will attempt the method you prescribe of breaking earlier and keeping the car more balanced, and brakes and tires less abused. I am tracking at TWS next weekend.

WOW, what a write-up! that's a dream come true to have private instruction like that, I am jealous!!!

I also agree the notes about late braking are really good. It makes me re-think my approach on the back straight at Mid OH.

Sounds like you are having fun and learning to drive your car closer to the limit (increasing your limit). While I'm not 100% sold on that style of braking on a track, if it works for you, it's another tool in your collection. It does, however promote smooth braking, which, like you say, doesn't upset the car. Good write up.

Thanks all. Shooter I hear you, I wasn't 100% sold on it either, so I asked Rick to elaborate. He said that if he's doing a qualifying lap or two, then yes he does brake a little later and harder, but the trade-off is that the laps after those may be slower because the tires got hotter and grip less. He talked about races where some guys would be fast out of the gate, and he'd pass them later after their tires and/or brakes weren't holding as well. The other issue is that it's harder to judge when and how much to reduce pedal pressure when you're threshold braking just before turn-in. Perhaps a more experienced driver wouldn't have that issue. But for me, I found that I was more consistently hitting my apexes and getting higher corner exit speeds by getting the heavy braking done earlier, and having the car well balanced as I begin to turn in. I've noticed that some of the smoothest drivers I've ridden with also put down the fastest laps. It seems like you're going slower but in fact may be quicker overall.

[VENOM V]

Nice writeup Todd. Sounds like you had another good time,and learned more on this trip.. Yes there's always improvements to be made.. I'm still trying to improve,and hone in my driving skills all the time.. It never stops..

One of the other reasons why the Viper spins on you so quick is because it's a very sprung,a stiff car.. Before doing karting , I can push my C6Z06 on the track much faster compared to my Viper because the Z has a more compliant suspension, Chassis.. It's softer.. The steering inputs are not as sensitive.. It is just like a kart. You will be very surprised how much a kart and a Viper are a like.. Now I can push my Viper pretty hard on the track now. Harder than the Z. Doing it with confidence.. You gotta come out, and drive one of my karts. We have an open practice day this Saturday. 2 run groups..

I'm in! Looking forward to joining you this Saturday, thanks for the invite.

[VENOM V]

I am so guilty of this. When I first started with this car, I was destroying other cars in the braking zones and thought it was just ACR awesomeness. But then I started digging into my telemetry and seeing very mediocre exit speeds and disappointing top ends on subsequent straights. I have a bad habit that I'm still working on... I'll call it "Braking Bad"

Great write-up, Todd. Personal instruction in your own car really is the best way to go. Now I'm considering renting or borrowing a trailer to take my car to Spring Mountain and plug into the same sort of individualized instruction...

Braking Bad, LOL! Rich, trailer that bad boy down there and do it. If I were to do it all over again, I'd take the Level 1 course, then skip Level 2 and go right to the private lesson. Or perhaps just jump right into a multi-day private lesson with your experience. It depends on whether you want a refresher of all of the fundamentals, I think even experienced track rats would get a lot out of the Level 1 course.

[VENOM V]

Thing to remember about the braking zone is that once you are in transition to the corner you are still scrubbing speed (sliding) so if you utilize that last bit of slowing using the side load of the tire you will have better mid corner speed at the limit of the tire and a smoother base to transition to throttle off the corner, good instructor for pointing that out ;-)

Hey Mark, you did a better job than I of explaining that, agreed and thank you.