2000 GTS Slave clutch cylinder

[d124716]

One more question for the group - got the slave cylinder in yesterday, I was able to completely compress it so I am assuming it is not prefilled. With that said, is there a way to bench bleed it and IS THAT EVEN NEEDED? I don't want to create more work for myself so if people have experience with mounting empty cylinders and having them bleed without an issue no bench bleeding is needed.

Please let me know.

[lane_viper]

I didn't bench bleed min when I put it in.

You will need 2 people, and make sure to follow the proper bleeding procedure, but its not difficult.

[d124716]

I didn't bench bleed min when I put it in.

You will need 2 people, and make sure to follow the proper bleeding procedure, but its not difficult.

Got it, thank you for commenting!

[d124716]

2000 GTS

Last components are on their way, I might tackle this job this weekend!

Read the manual cover to cover, couldn't find torque for bell housing to engine bolts.
What I found for transmission to bell housing torque was a bit confusing.

With that said, does anyone know:

1. Torque for bell housing to engine bolts?
2. Torque for transmission to bell housing bolts?

Thanks!

[dave6666]

I looked in my 2001 factory service manual. They state 30 lb ft for 3/8 bolts and 50 lb ft for 7/16 bolts for transmission to engine. They also specifically state transmission to bellhousing 30 lb ft. That's in the transmission section. In the clutch section they say to put the bellhousing back on but do not state the torque value either in that statement nor the torque list table. I would use the values stated above. I've taken many of these out and put them back in using those numbers so it's a pretty safe bet you can as well.

If it hasn't been said yet you should have a 30" extension available for the top transmission bolts. Access them 30" back near the tailshaft housing. I use a 20" reg extension with a 10" wobble extension at the socket.

Ratchet Pic1.jpg

Bellhousing Pic2.jpg

Another topic that often gets discussed is what to do with the flywheel i.e. what grit to sand it with if that's what you are doing. I've heard from 80 grit on up to 600. When I was browsing the manual for the torque values I saw where the official factory statement is 400 to 600 grit. I used 400 on a DA when I have done mine.

There are some other things you might need to be aware of when removing the transmission. It can hit on the passenger side and the bottom of the ash tray/e-brake where the shifter is. Lowering the tail end of the tranny down a bit can help with the shifter to ash tray/e-brake issue. Be aware that if you have headers with no flex pipes at the outer frame rails that engine tilting will be limited. You might also pull your windshield cowl off because the intake can hit it. Regarding hitting on the passenger side I've used a bottle jack to drive a wooden wedge in to push the engine and tranny over to help that clear.

Wooden Wedge Pic3.jpg

Wooden Wedge Pic1.jpg

Shifter Hitting E-brake in Tunnel.jpg

[lane_viper]

All of what Dave says is 100% correct.

I had to daisy chain a few extensions together to get the top bell housing bolts.

I want to add, I ruined a perfectly good speed sensor by forgetting to detach the plug. Wires got pulled out of it. My thought was "no biggie, I will just get another $30 sensor." Turns out they are $200 and not readily available. So remember to be careful and make sure all is disconnected when removing.

Also the U joint straps are 1 time use, so it is not advised to re-use them.

[d124716]

I looked in my 2001 factory service manual. They state 30 lb ft for 3/8 bolts and 50 lb ft for 7/16 bolts for transmission to engine. They also specifically state transmission to bellhousing 30 lb ft. That's in the transmission section. In the clutch section they say to put the bellhousing back on but do not state the torque value either in that statement nor the torque list table. I would use the values stated above. I've taken many of these out and put them back in using those numbers so it's a pretty safe bet you can as well.

If it hasn't been said yet you should have a 30" extension available for the top transmission bolts. Access them 30" back near the tailshaft housing. I use a 20" reg extension with a 10" wobble extension at the socket.

Ratchet Pic1.jpg

Bellhousing Pic2.jpg

Another topic that often gets discussed is what to do with the flywheel i.e. what grit to sand it with if that's what you are doing. I've heard from 80 grit on up to 600. When I was browsing the manual for the torque values I saw where the official factory statement is 400 to 600 grit. I used 400 on a DA when I have done mine.

There are some other things you might need to be aware of when removing the transmission. It can hit on the passenger side and the bottom of the ash tray/e-brake where the shifter is. Lowering the tail end of the tranny down a bit can help with the shifter to ash tray/e-brake issue. Be aware that if you have headers with no flex pipes at the outer frame rails that engine tilting will be limited. You might also pull your windshield cowl off because the intake can hit it. Regarding hitting on the passenger side I've used a bottle jack to drive a wooden wedge in to push the engine and tranny over to help that clear.

Wooden Wedge Pic3.jpg

Wooden Wedge Pic1.jpg

Shifter Hitting E-brake in Tunnel.jpg

Hi Dave,
Thank you for a very detailed explanation. I got the transmission removed and indeed had to use few of those monster extensions plugged into each other. Now, for the bolts, seems clear 30 ft/lbs for trans to bell housing. I wanted to clarify bell hosing to ENGINGE (see pictures below). The manual calls it "transmission to engine" but if I'm getting it right it is actually BELL HOUSING to Engine. If I get what you are saying bolts in orange have to be 30 ft/lbs and bolts in blue are 50 lbs. IS THAT CORRECT?

[d124716]

Another item from the manual that caught my eye, can you tell me if I located the "balance spot" (mentioned in the manual below) on the clutch cover correctly (circled in red)? Thank you!

[ICPREY]

I asked the same question on Facebook when I did my clutch and got no response. I purchased a Mopar replacement flywheel and there wasn't an orange dot on it...

[d124716]

I asked the same question on Facebook when I did my clutch and got no response. I purchased a Mopar replacement flywheel and there wasn't an orange dot on it...

So what did you do in the end and how did it worked out? How did you mount the clutch plate in terms of aligning balancing marks.

[dave6666]

I just put them on. The only thing that gets aligned is the hole in the middle with another hole in the middle.

[ICPREY]

So what did you do in the end and how did it worked out? How did you mount the clutch plate in terms of aligning balancing marks.

I just put it together, figured it wasn't a huge deal considering no one does it. The flywheel I got did have a few circles cut out of it that I assumed were for balancing purposes and the clutch plate had rivets installed in some of the outer holes which I also assumed was for balancing. I lined up the rivets on the plate and circles on the FW but I'm sure it would have been fine without doing it.

[d124716]

Understood, thank you for your comments. I'm still a bit worried that i cannot find (with confidence) the balance mark on the clutch plate that I bought. I know where the dot on the flywheel is at so I would love to match the two " by the book "

[d124716]

A little update, pulled the clutch off today and changed pilot bearing. Take a look at how I FOUND the bearing when I took the clutch off, a chunk is missing! Do you think I could've caused that damaged when I was removing the trans or is this something bad that was happening and got caught in time? Furthermore, kind helps explain bunch of metal dust around the input shaft (pictures in earlier correspondence of this post). Lastly, beginning to wonder if failed pilot bearing caused shaft to wobble inside the slave clutch tube, overheated it or mechanically damaged it somehow ultimately causing a leak that started this whole thing.

What do you think on the bearing is this something that could've been done pulling the tranny off or, this is something that failed during driving. Additional photo of flywheel before and after sanding... looks like there was a hot spot. Tranny is back in, will work on bleeding, drive-shaft and ipsco shifter reverse interference (will try to see if I can sand off whatever it is that is interfering on the shifter.

Happy holidays!

[njsteve]

Has that transmission ever been out before?

That is the exact type of damage you would see on a pilot bearing/bushing when someone misaligned the clutch and then tried to "pull" the transmission into place by tightening the bolts. At a certain point, the trans refuses to go any farther forward because the pilot section of the input shaft is jammed against the edge of the bearing/bushing, leaving that telltale mark. Usually the ears will break off the case or the case will fracture if they go any farther in the tightening process.

Thankfully, it looks like they spotted the problem and aborted the mission before they aborted the transmission. (LOL at my own bad joke).

[dave6666]

That is one of the exact problems I told you to look for ref the wear on the ID of the slave. So yes that pilot bearing can be directly related to other things.

[njsteve]

With that crunch mark on the edge of the pilot bearing, it is quite likely that it was no longer acting as a bearing and was stationary due to the needles inside unable to rotate around, (thereby acting more like a bushing instead).

Any powder coming out of that damaged bearing would have been deposited between the clutch disc and the flywheel and not back behind the slave cylinder.

But the damaged bearing could have caused an eccentricity or wobble in the input shaft, causing the throwout bearing's inner sleeve to start to chew itself up against the spinning input shaft and thus depositing that powder residue inside and behind the slave cylinder housing.

[d124716]

That is one of the exact problems I told you to look for ref the wear on the ID of the slave. So yes that pilot bearing can be directly related to other things.

Hi Dave yes I recall that, good call on your part! I still can't believe this is happening at 20ish K miles.

[d124716]

With that crunch mark on the edge of the pilot bearing, it is quite likely that it was no longer acting as a bearing and was stationary due to the needles inside unable to rotate around, (thereby acting more like a bushing instead).

Any powder coming out of that damaged bearing would have been deposited between the clutch disc and the flywheel and not back behind the slave cylinder.

But the damaged bearing could have caused an eccentricity or wobble in the input shaft, causing the throwout bearing's inner sleeve to start to chew itself up against the spinning input shaft and thus depositing that powder residue inside and behind the slave cylinder housing.

Hi njSteve, sliding surface of transmission's input shaft looked good so I don't think the pilot bearing was locked up (maybe it was about to.. of it just happened). So don't think there was any pilot bearing "dust" however most certainly inner slave cylinder dust for sure, the cylinder has grove marks on ID.

Only question is how (why) did the pilot bearing go out like this? If it was done by misalignment during installation could the bearing survive 20K miles as I don't think and it doesn't look like the tranny was out since the factory put it in.

[d124716]

A bit of a CRZY update.
Used all OEM (new old stock) parts. Verified part numbers stamped on new parts vs parts that came of.
Tranny installed.
IPSCO shifter (new T56 shifter cup bushing) in - had to "push" trans crossmember towards driver side to clear shifting reverse.
Remote clutch bleeder nipple is routed just under clutch fluid reservoir.
Skip shift solenoid eliminator wiring installed.
Used my handheld vacuum squeezer gun to suck as much fluid through remote clutch bleeder. The pedal feels a bit spongy.
Disconnected quick coupler gave pedal a light squeeze - pedal is hard as a rock - ok master is not the problem.

Started the car - THE CAR WILL NOT SHIFT IN REVERSE and has HARD TIME SHIFTING INTO ANY GEARS from neutral. Somehow managed to get the car back on the lift. This time instead of just using my handheld vacuum gun had an assistant pump (and hold) clutch pedal while I was bleeding through remote bleeder. Also tried another approach of rather having him pump and hold do a push the pedal while I unlock the bleeder. None of that helped, the car still struggled to shift into gears with the engine running. As soon as you shut the engine off the car will shift into any gear smooth as butter... but not with the engine running.

Lastly figured to try drip method, routed remote bleeder way under the car hanging near ground level. Had it drip through some. Then had helper push the pedal while I unlock (and lock) the bleeder. Did that for a little bit...then pumped the pedal for like 40 times and it got stiff. We've done the "quick pump" before and the pedal would get stiff but not all the way through. Took the car for a ride and it would go into all gears with no issues.

Now I don't know if I am getting use to the new IPSCO shifter or the car still has issues going into gears (before it wouldn't go at all, now it is going bit a bit more stiff).

What do you think is going on here (why the car refused to shift while running until the clutch got harder)?

Do I need to bleed more?

Do I need to use a different method?

Thank you!

[dave6666]

You might need a new master cylinder. If it is bypasssing internally you will never be able to stroke it fast enough to build pressure.

I've also never tried vacuum bleeding using a hand pump. Not sure if that could be related to your success or not but I always use the MV7300 which has an air hose powered vacuum pump. The vacuum never stops or fluctuates. I hook the hose up go the factory bleed port and let it run till I'm satisfied I've put enough fluid through it. Usually a couple small DOT 4 Prestone containers from Wallyworld.

Things like what you are dealing with are always harder to diagnose on the internet than in person but if you don't have a stiff clutch pedal you still have a hydraulic problem.

[njsteve]

I initially couldn't get it into gear either until it was fully bled.

The factory method involves pumping 20 or so times and then cracking the bleeder screw to let the fluid out as your partner presses the pedal to the floor and holds it there while you retighten the bleeder. Then he/she lets off the pedal. You then refill the reservioir (if necessary) and have your pedal buddy pump it another 20 times cracking the bleeder and thightening with the pedal down. I think we repeated it five times before I was satisfied with the pedal feeling.

I see you added the remote bleeder line. Good idea! I got the super long 48" one so that I could route it all the way outside the car, following the master cylinder line and unraveled it out to the ground and into a clear basin so I could see any bubbles coming out.

I think I used a quart and a half of Dot 4 to make sure the entire system was clean.

I would also recommend replacing the master cylinder unit at this time too. It is wise to do all the hydraulic compnonets at once and have a completely new hydraulic circuit from end to end.

[d124716]

You might need a new master cylinder. If it is bypasssing internally you will never be able to stroke it fast enough to build pressure.

I've also never tried vacuum bleeding using a hand pump. Not sure if that could be related to your success or not but I always use the MV7300 which has an air hose powered vacuum pump. The vacuum never stops or fluctuates. I hook the hose up go the factory bleed port and let it run till I'm satisfied I've put enough fluid through it. Usually a couple small DOT 4 Prestone containers from Wallyworld.

Things like what you are dealing with are always harder to diagnose on the internet than in person but if you don't have a stiff clutch pedal you still have a hydraulic problem.

Hi Dave thank you for the feedback, that makes sense, I've ordered the power bleeder will give it a try once it comes in. I'm hoping it is the method that we are doing wrong since eventually the pedal did get (and stayed) hard.

[d124716]

I initially couldn't get it into gear either until it was fully bled.

The factory method involves pumping 20 or so times and then cracking the bleeder screw to let the fluid out as your partner presses the pedal to the floor and holds it there while you retighten the bleeder. Then he/she lets off the pedal. You then refill the reservoir (if necessary) and have your pedal buddy pump it another 20 times cracking the bleeder and tightening with the pedal down. I think we repeated it five times before I was satisfied with the pedal feeling.

I see you added the remote bleeder line. Good idea! I got the super long 48" one so that I could route it all the way outside the car, following the master cylinder line and unraveled it out to the ground and into a clear basin so I could see any bubbles coming out.

I think I used a quart and a half of Dot 4 to make sure the entire system was clean.

I would also recommend replacing the master cylinder unit at this time too. It is wise to do all the hydraulic compnonets at once and have a completely new hydraulic circuit from end to end.

Hi njSteve, Good to know thank you for sharing..... you should've seen my face when I started the car and it wouldn't shift.... I think I actually froze for a moment. Thank you for a detailed description of the bleeding process. We'll hook up the power bleeder AND follow your instructions.

I would love to keep the remote bleeder right by the clutch reservoir. My concern is that if the fitting or line will ever leak it will drip right on headers which if I am not mistaken is a potential fire hazard. I could put a large rubber hose on it and aim it down.. kind of like folks do for power steering fluid. One thing that I am not a 100% certain is if having the bleeding point this high is effective or if you have to have it "lower". Maybe with a proper power bleeder and method it won't matter where the bleeding point is.

Few people have mentioned about the master cylinder as well. I am a bit turned off by the fact that OEM is not available. I had bad experience with "autozone" like parts lasting 20% vs OEM (with other cars). Thus, if I have 50% of my master cylinder life left and replace it now with a brand new aftermarket that will only last me 20% of a time I am working against myself. If OEM was available I would probably go for it.

Thanks!

[njsteve]

I used the LUK LMC138 master cylinder. Since LUK suppled a lot of the clutch related stuff on these cars it seemed to be a good choice. I got mine from rockauto for $62 plus shipping but they're out of stock at the moment.