Viper only go up in value

[Aevus]

Go drive a taycan and you'll have a different tune on electric cars. Phenomenal vehicle

Yes it is. Loved it. Fantastic vehicle.

But the whole problem of EV is not that is bad vehicles, it's the brutal replacement of ICE... and even hybrid

[Mikey]

Yes it is. Loved it. Fantastic vehicle.

But the whole problem of EV is not that is bad vehicles, it's the brutal replacement of ICE... and even hybrid

I think they're banning new ICE sales by 2030? Pretty aggressive timing

[Martin]

I won't even go into all the studies on EVs I was involved with while in grad school. The results were always a "don't do it" except when someone had their own power supply, the batteries were about twice as efficient as lithium ion (which were state of the art back then), and the world completely re-did their grid system. The losses between an inefficient power plant, then the line losses, then the transformer losses, then the charger station losses, and finally the losses of the batteries themselves showed that on-board ICE was incredibly efficient as compared to EVs.

I'm not going to totally count them out - I have a solar and hydro power plant on my place (when the damned drought ends I can start generating hydro power again) and I can support an EV if its battery is good. In fact, if I can tie it into my infrastructure, I can use it as a fall-back energy source during emergencies.

All that said, the advice I've been giving to family and friends is to buy up as many top of the line ICE cars as they can. The move to electric will be slow, and the closing of gas stations will be slow. My prediction is that gas will be back down to around $2 a gallon in the next ten years, and the government will realize that the EVs are the ones using up most of the roads. So, they'll tax the EVs like crazy because they aren't getting gas taxes anymore, and they'll see our ICE cars as just noise. At that point, we'll be laughing.

As an aside, I just bought a Rubicon Unlimited 392, and that thing is amazing. It's like driving my old '97 GTS - but offroad. The thing accelerates like there's no tomorrow, the brakes and handling are great for off road, and it is just plain brutal. Now that's a keeper. I could care less if I drive it into a tree - it just laughs at anything it slams into or scrapes by. The most fun off road car I've ever owned by far.

Go HEMI!!!

[SlateEd]

I won't even go into all the studies on EVs I was involved with while in grad school. The results were always a "don't do it" except when someone had their own power supply, the batteries were about twice as efficient as lithium ion (which were state of the art back then), and the world completely re-did their grid system. The losses between an inefficient power plant, then the line losses, then the transformer losses, then the charger station losses, and finally the losses of the batteries themselves showed that on-board ICE was incredibly efficient as compared to EVs.

I'm not going to totally count them out - I have a solar and hydro power plant on my place (when the damned drought ends I can start generating hydro power again) and I can support an EV if its battery is good. In fact, if I can tie it into my infrastructure, I can use it as a fall-back energy source during emergencies.

All that said, the advice I've been giving to family and friends is to buy up as many top of the line ICE cars as they can. The move to electric will be slow, and the closing of gas stations will be slow. My prediction is that gas will be back down to around $2 a gallon in the next ten years, and the government will realize that the EVs are the ones using up most of the roads. So, they'll tax the EVs like crazy because they aren't getting gas taxes anymore, and they'll see our ICE cars as just noise. At that point, we'll be laughing.

As an aside, I just bought a Rubicon Unlimited 392, and that thing is amazing. It's like driving my old '97 GTS - but offroad. The thing accelerates like there's no tomorrow, the brakes and handling are great for off road, and it is just plain brutal. Now that's a keeper. I could care less if I drive it into a tree - it just laughs at anything it slams into or scrapes by. The most fun off road car I've ever owned by far.

Go HEMI!!!

Agree with grabbing premium ICE now if you can... Imagine being in 1971, shopping for a big-block, and deciding to go with something else... thinking to yourself ehhh, maybe in 5 years it will be easier to afford/park/whatever.

Regardless of what comes next in the short-medium term, we're seeing a peak right now in what ICE can be harnessed to do. And even if some of these long term cycles bring fossil fuels back to consumer vehicles in 40 years(unlikely), how many of us will still be ripping them around the streets?

Love the Rubicon 392! We just ordered an RS6 Avant for a daily. The opportunity is now. And your Jeep and my RS6 may both go up in value short term too... but who cares, we'll have a blast.

The resale value on my G3 keeps going down with every track day and every 5k miles... that's what's supposed to happen, so I'm good with that. The value on my G5 keeps going up... not what I expected when I bought it, but great... in 10 years It's probably even higher and getting close to a plateau. Unless we're in dire need, still going to keep it.

[Gen5snake]

I just picked up a BMW M550i. 0-60 3.5s, 3.3 with 1 ft rollout, 11.5 1/4 mile (done with dragy and seat massager on). Twin turbo V8, sounds wicked. The M5 would have been nice, but I already have the snake. The M550i is one of the most comfortable rides I've been in.

When I was in engineering school, we looked at all this alternative energy stuff, fusion, solar, EV's...etc. The juice was never worth the squeeze. Never. No free ride when it comes to power generation. My dad was also an engineer involved with the development of lithium batteries in China. He was horrified about the sloppiness, quality, and inconsistency issues they had with their overseas vendors. To this day, he won't keep any lithium battery charging overnight anywhere in his house.

Martin, you hit the nail on the head with all the losses. No politician cares to get their heads around those facts. Full steam ahead! I'm not against EV's, I'm against the "Liberal World Order" (video provided in a previous post of mine) mandating them. I think 50% EV's would be a nice compromise. ICE for the long hauls, EV's for the local. Hybrids are fine.

WTF! Bring the 60's 70's and 80's back. Back then, NASA was stating the globe was cooling. I remember seeing people bringing their cars to Bradlees/Kmart parking lots and doing antifreeze flushes and oil changes right on asphalt. Nobody really paid attention. Aerosol was the evil villain in the 70's/80's. All the climate crisis crap will change too....once the "Liberal/New World Order" gets their way. ...

I'm glad I bought my Viper when I did. Value will only rise, I'm sure with a few economic setbacks. The wealthy will always have access to gas and will be able to take care of any additional taxes they wage against the ICE's. I have a feeling ICE's will make a comeback...just don't know how long it will take.

[Martin]

If my vague knowledge of economics is correct, what we'll see shortly is a rush to EVs and hybrids, a massive slow down in gasoline sales, and then a massive price pullback. We've gone through this before many times. It's all about supply and demand. So, for that reason, I'm all for EVs! More gasoline for me!

[Lawineer]

Agree with grabbing premium ICE now if you can... Imagine being in 1971, shopping for a big-block, and deciding to go with something else... thinking to yourself ehhh, maybe in 5 years it will be easier to afford/park/whatever.

Regardless of what comes next in the short-medium term, we're seeing a peak right now in what ICE can be harnessed to do. And even if some of these long term cycles bring fossil fuels back to consumer vehicles in 40 years(unlikely), how many of us will still be ripping them around the streets?

Love the Rubicon 392! We just ordered an RS6 Avant for a daily. The opportunity is now. And your Jeep and my RS6 may both go up in value short term too... but who cares, we'll have a blast.

The resale value on my G3 keeps going down with every track day and every 5k miles... that's what's supposed to happen, so I'm good with that. The value on my G5 keeps going up... not what I expected when I bought it, but great... in 10 years It's probably even higher and getting close to a plateau. Unless we're in dire need, still going to keep it.

Eh, kind of. Emissions made cars crappier in every conceivable metric from cost to performance to reliability. Electric is better for the overwhelming majority of daily driver owners. Unless you need more than 300 miles of range regularly or something, it's hard to imagine why you wouldn't want electric. If I could pull the V8 out of my GX460 snap my fingers and replace it with even a mild 400hp electric motor that has 300 miles of range, I would.

I think that's unique to daily drivers, and it's very different for sports cars.

I can see why a gas guzzling dinosaur would hold value, despite being slower and having to fill up a gas tank, and using three goofy pedals instead of paddles. I have no idea why anyone would want a gas daily driver over an electric one, other than being reluctant to accept change.

[Martin]

Eh, kind of. Emissions made cars crappier in every conceivable metric from cost to performance to reliability. Electric is better for the overwhelming majority of daily driver owners. Unless you need more than 300 miles of range regularly or something, it's hard to imagine why you wouldn't want electric. If I could pull the V8 out of my GX460 snap my fingers and replace it with even a mild 400hp electric motor that has 300 miles of range, I would.

I think that's unique to daily drivers, and it's very different for sports cars.

I can see why a gas guzzling dinosaur would hold value, despite being slower and having to fill up a gas tank, and using three goofy pedals instead of paddles. I have no idea why anyone would want a gas daily driver over an electric one, other than being reluctant to accept change.

I tend to agree with this. My wife and I have a whole stable of gas guzzlers, but when we make our daily trips, we drive a Hyundai that gets around 30 MPG. A good friend has a VW eBeetle, and he's also a sports car hoarder. For the majority of what he does, he just drives the EV.

My feeling is that people should have the choice of what they drive. Having someone tell me that I'll have no choice but to buy an EV in a few years just pisses me off. If I didn't love where I live so much, I'd move to a free state that doesn't pass crazy regulations and restrictions. Maybe I'm just getting old and grumpy, but I'm sick of the politics that are only based on political agenda. We need a "new Reagan" in California to sort things out. But, back to the topic at hand, the fun big engine cars of today (especially the Vipers) will be great investments going forward. I never thought I'd use the words "great investments" and "cars" in the same sentence, but times have changed.

[SlateEd]

Eh, kind of. Emissions made cars crappier in every conceivable metric from cost to performance to reliability. Electric is better for the overwhelming majority of daily driver owners. Unless you need more than 300 miles of range regularly or something, it's hard to imagine why you wouldn't want electric. If I could pull the V8 out of my GX460 snap my fingers and replace it with even a mild 400hp electric motor that has 300 miles of range, I would.

I think that's unique to daily drivers, and it's very different for sports cars.

I can see why a gas guzzling dinosaur would hold value, despite being slower and having to fill up a gas tank, and using three goofy pedals instead of paddles. I have no idea why anyone would want a gas daily driver over an electric one, other than being reluctant to accept change.

So funny - I agree completely for the practical / financial / daily side of things... so my wife's new daily is an eTron (mid-sized Audi SUV, full electric). It has a great torquey feel and it's dead silent, smooth, comfortable for the boring daily commute stuff. We rarely buy gas anymore for any daily needs.

I ordered the RS6 for my next daily because we need at least one car for 500 mile family visits. Calculating charging stops and food with plugshare and other apps can be a fun adventure for a single person or young couple, but sucks bigtime with 2 little kids. It's certainly not a reluctance to change in our case, since we're doing both, but if you love petrol-powered cars, now is the time to treat yourself to the best of them... the ordinary ones will depreciate 'as normal,' where the enthusiast-appealing stuff seems to have really strong medium-range value.

[ViperTony]

So funny - I agree completely for the practical / financial / daily side of things... so my wife's new daily is an eTron (mid-sized Audi SUV, full electric). It has a great torquey feel and it's dead silent, smooth, comfortable for the boring daily commute stuff. We rarely buy gas anymore for any daily needs.

Ed, I'm curious if you've seen a noticeable change to your electric bill with regards to recharging...and how it compares to when you were buying gas. Is it cheaper, expensive, the same? At some point I'll hope into an EV so was just curious. You should bring the eTron to the AutoCross.

[finalleaf]

Ed, I'm curious if you've seen a noticeable change to your electric bill with regards to recharging...and how it compares to when you were buying gas. Is it cheaper, expensive, the same? At some point I'll hope into an EV so was just curious. You should bring the eTron to the AutoCross.

For me personally, comparing to a car that gets 30mpg it's about half the cost charging at home vs regular 87 gas (per mile wise), and I live in the most expensive state for electricity at $0.34 per kwh. The savings will be even better for most other states.

But I also have solar which offsets my entire usage including charging EVs

[PkB2014]

Charging our Tesla Model 3 at home in TX @ $0.10/kwh runs about 20-30% of running gas, and even better compared to my GMC 2500HD Duramax. Charging at a Supercharger, at least here, is still about 60% cost of what it would be to fillup with gasoline. The Tesla app shows i spent $134 over the last 31 days and saved $301 based on current gas prices. I had a 800mi round trip that i used supercharging over the July 4th weekend.

[Hamrhead]

For me. my Tesla Model Y is significantly less expensive to 'fuel' than my last car - ATS-V.

The Cadillac had the 3.6TT/464hp engine(24-25 mpg), so power and performance were very close to my Tesla. Although the Tesla will win in the drag race because of AWD traction and no gears to shift, but similar trap speeds.

The last time I put 93 octane gas in the car it was ~3.25/gallon, and I was usually good for about $30-35/week.

Now, I still have the same 2 jobs and run pretty much the same routes, and roughly the same miles per week. The Tesla costs me approx.$30/month.

93 octane is well past $5/gallon now.

For a DD, the car is awesome. Though still not ready to sell my Viper and abandon internal combustion.

[Pappy]

I think the real issue will be sustainability of the current electric energy costs. We are generating enough excess energy today to support the very small fleet of EVs, but as demand grows there will be costs associated with the generation of significantly more energy and distribution infrastructure. Those costs will be passed on to the consumer. Call me a skeptic, but I am old enough to remember the early 80s when there was a big push for diesel vehicles - even in passenger cars - due to lower fuel costs. Diesel approached half the cost of gasoline. Now, for reasons including EPA requirements for low sulfur enhancements and other additives, diesel prices are off the charts. I don't believe for a minute that our Government and its agencies won't become involved in regulating the energy industry, nor do I believe the costs of increasing electric energy production and distribution won't be very expensive. Sixty-one percent of our current electric energy is produced by fossil fuels, and green energy sources are not keeping up with the pace of expansion required to support potentially 250 million+ EVs in this country alone. Long live the V-10 and the Duramax!

[Lawineer]

We need to go nuclear. There's really no other way to get to a world where we can live in 70 degree homes and drive electric cars.
It's honestly stupid that we haven't.

[ViperSRT]

We need to go nuclear. There's really no other way to get to a world where we can live in 70 degree homes and drive electric cars.
It's honestly stupid that we haven't.

Concur 100%. Unfortunately the same people that are super Green are also anti nuclear. And they are in the White House, EPA, Nuclear Regulatory, etc.

[SlateEd]

Ed, I'm curious if you've seen a noticeable change to your electric bill with regards to recharging...and how it compares to when you were buying gas. Is it cheaper, expensive, the same? At some point I'll hope into an EV so was just curious. You should bring the eTron to the AutoCross.

haha... We have joked about putting it on the AutoX this year.
The difference in electric bill is tangible, but not terrible... about 90 dollars a month.
And I think that's pretty reasonable, considering we've put an average of 1600 miles per month on it so far, with practically zero charging outside the home.

The Durango V8 was averaging 15mpg... if we're generous and round up to 16, that's 100 gallons per month to cover the same distance... so about $500 a month in gas around here for that much mileage.

[Viperenvy]

Question - Do the smart people here really, truly understand the impact? In the past, African resources were shipped around the world to give a select group a better standard of living. Now, is the same thing happening?


https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/06/30...lopment-china/

[Lawineer]

Concur 100%. Unfortunately the same people that are super Green are also anti nuclear. And they are in the White House, EPA, Nuclear Regulatory, etc.

No one wants solutions. They need something to fight about. Legalizing marijuana is the best example. The left has been clamoring about doing this and never does. It's pretty simple and easy to do. Why? Next cycle, they won't be able to promise fixing it. That's not to call out the left. The right does the same thing with a number of issues. That's just the best example I can think of.

I started out thinking I'd vote for anyone who would get term limits, get age limits and balance a budget. Things like trade deficits are outrageous and completely ignored. Money literally bleeds out of the country year after year. Now, I'd knock door to door and campaign for someone who would crack down on slow left lane drivers.

[Lawineer]

Question - Do the smart people here really, truly understand the impact? In the past, African resources were shipped around the world to give a select group a better standard of living. Now, is the same thing happening?


https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/06/30...lopment-china/

Understand? Yes. Care? No.

[StrokerAce]

I really don't see EV's as being better for everyone. The price to enter into an EV is far and above a cheap new car and as you know the price to entry is a huge piece of why people buy one thing vs it's more expensive counterpart. Not only that but not everyone even buys a new car as they can't even afford that. By the time EV's are made cheap enough and flood the market used at prices less fortunate people can afford I expect to be dead. Or a living head in a jar like Futurama.

[SlateEd]

Question - Do the smart people here really, truly understand the impact? In the past, African resources were shipped around the world to give a select group a better standard of living. Now, is the same thing happening?


https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/06/30...lopment-china/

Potentially the same thing happening, yes.

Many examples of this throughout history, from infrastructure to energy and minerals to food products... Why are bananas so 'cheap' for us in the United States? How did we secure the price of copper for decades? And examples when it backfired... who runs the Suez Canal?

The problem is not smart people vs. the unaware (The unaware aren't making policy anyway). It's smart people with collaborative intent vs. smart people with selfish intent. And it's not just a 1-axis continuum; you also need to factor in prioritizing the 'right now' vs. 'long term'.
Purely selfish and 'right now' will do whatever is needed to get elected this cycle (chaotic, but achieves the only goal the person cares about, which is self-serving)
"Selfish" but looking medium-longer term will see exploitation of Africa (or Guatemala, or Chile) as a decades-long opportunity, and create the kind of moves that article describes (good for one nation/region only).


Where do we find an entire generation of smart people who are both 'not selfish' and 'thinking long term' ?

[Viperenvy]

Potentially the same thing happening, yes.

Many examples of this throughout history, from infrastructure to energy and minerals to food products... Why are bananas so 'cheap' for us in the United States? How did we secure the price of copper for decades? And examples when it backfired... who runs the Suez Canal?

The problem is not smart people vs. the unaware (The unaware aren't making policy anyway). It's smart people with collaborative intent vs. smart people with selfish intent. And it's not just a 1-axis continuum; you also need to factor in prioritizing the 'right now' vs. 'long term'.
Purely selfish and 'right now' will do whatever is needed to get elected this cycle (chaotic, but achieves the only goal the person cares about, which is self-serving)
"Selfish" but looking medium-longer term will see exploitation of Africa (or Guatemala, or Chile) as a decades-long opportunity, and create the kind of moves that article describes (good for one nation/region only).


Where do we find an entire generation of smart people who are both 'not selfish' and 'thinking long term' ?

Well articulated as always

[ViperTony]

Then there's the stupid....let's not forget this very important demographic. This group dwarfs the smart people with collaborative intent and is manipulated by the smart people with selfish intent. Stupid cannot be fixed.

[SlateEd]

Then there's the stupid....let's not forget this very important demographic. This group dwarfs the smart people with collaborative intent and is manipulated by the smart people with selfish intent. Stupid cannot be fixed.

so true.
why can't smart people with collaborative intent get better at manipulating the stupid haha... temporary, pragmatic abandoning of their own principles? :-)