Viper only go up in value

[Hoonin88]

There are more but those are the two that is more geared toward bitcoin and ethereum. Sadly my self directed TD account wouldn't let me buy in...

[Scott_in_fl]

For those looking for IRA custodians with crypto exposure opportunities, I just saw another ad on a YT video I was watching for a company called Alto. I believe the website is: https://grow.altoira.com/crypto-invest

I know nothing about them, just wanted to post it here because others had asked. As always, do your own due diligence. Good luck!

[Mikey]

I'm sure prices will come back down, especially once chips are back in stock

[13COBRA]

I'm sure prices will come back down, especially once chips are back in stock

So they can put them in a new Viper?

C'mon, the chip shortage is not affecting Viper prices. It's a combination of inflation, scarcity and not being able to order a new one.

[Mikey]

People are purchasing used vehicles because they can't buy new. The viper hasn't been able to be purchased new for 3 years now

Screenshot_20211124-163858_Chrome.jpg

Looks like the ban is in India, scary thought though

[ViperJon]

Remember when posting broke-dick flexing drivel like this would get moved to a more appropriate forum? Good work mods.

[blankline9]

electric cars are not the solution to anything. the amount of fossil fuels that are consumed to mine the materials needed to manufacture car batteries more than negates any benefit gained from driving cars electric. plus, when was the last time anyone saw an electric farm tractor or heavy duty construction equipment? more importantly, these jackwagons think wind and solar energy are actually going to make some sort of difference, which neither will....EVER. making cars electric without first investing billions into the existing power grid and associated infrastructure is a moot point. don't quote me on this but i'm pretty sure depending on the tesla model the charger takes a 240V service and typically consumes somewhere between 60-90 amps of power to charge. So the average home has a 200amp service which will support an at home tesla charging system. The real question is how does the existing power infrastructure support 1 out of 3 homes suddenly having a tesla or similar electric car that needs charged every night at around the same time? That is a huge amount of power consumption that currently isn't taxing the power grid but will eventually. Massive upgrades need made to existing infrastructure along with new substations being built all over to handle that huge demand for increase in available power. Plus, electric cars are shit and can't go far on a charge. until they figure out how to fast charge an electric car in like 15 mins or less and can make them run for 500 miles on a single charge, electric cars are worthless in my opinion unless you're living in a city which if that is the case, ride the mass transit if you're that concerned about fossil fuels. and don't even get me started on electric motorcycles....ask harley how lucrative their flop of an electric bike called the livewire worked out for them.

[Lawineer]

Power grid is a real concern. We already have brownouts as it is. One fortunate thing is that cars generally charge overnight when draw is relatively low- but yeah, huge electrical infrastructure improvements are required.

I disagree with your other points. Renewables can take a huge portion of fossil fuel consumption and 300 miles is plenty for most Americans. I can’t remember the last time I drove over 300 miles in one trip. You start out every morning with a full tank and you never have to stop to get gas. Those 10 minute stops every week more than make up for the one trip a year where I need to recharge for half an hour.

[Gen5snake]

electric cars are not the solution to anything. the amount of fossil fuels that are consumed to mine the materials needed to manufacture car batteries more than negates any benefit gained from driving cars electric. plus, when was the last time anyone saw an electric farm tractor or heavy duty construction equipment? more importantly, these jackwagons think wind and solar energy are actually going to make some sort of difference, which neither will....EVER. making cars electric without first investing billions into the existing power grid and associated infrastructure is a moot point. don't quote me on this but i'm pretty sure depending on the tesla model the charger takes a 240V service and typically consumes somewhere between 60-90 amps of power to charge. So the average home has a 200amp service which will support an at home tesla charging system. The real question is how does the existing power infrastructure support 1 out of 3 homes suddenly having a tesla or similar electric car that needs charged every night at around the same time? That is a huge amount of power consumption that currently isn't taxing the power grid but will eventually. Massive upgrades need made to existing infrastructure along with new substations being built all over to handle that huge demand for increase in available power. Plus, electric cars are shit and can't go far on a charge. until they figure out how to fast charge an electric car in like 15 mins or less and can make them run for 500 miles on a single charge, electric cars are worthless in my opinion unless you're living in a city which if that is the case, ride the mass transit if you're that concerned about fossil fuels. and don't even get me started on electric motorcycles....ask harley how lucrative their flop of an electric bike called the livewire worked out for them.

Are you actually putting thought into this? We live in a world of surface thinkers....no deep thought going on at all....sheep following each other over a cliff.

For an average commuter, Electric vehicles will require 2496 kWh of electricity per year.

You have to burn 1.25 pounds of coal to generate 1 kWh

1 kWh of coal burnt from a power plant will generate 2.07 pounds of carbon emissions.

Each electric car will produce 5166 pounds of Carbon emissions per year. But this analysis is flawed, not considering the degradation of batteries over time. A car that’s capable of 300 miles today is not capable of 300 miles in six months or a year or two or five years. As batteries degrade, they will require more charging, using more electricity, having a larger carbon footprint.

Now for the modern combustion engine car

For the average internal combustion engine car, for the same miles it will produce 8800 pounds of carbon emissions per year.

A 3600 pound Carbon emissions difference…. But we also have to consider how much carbon emissions are created by stripmining the earth for lithium. Billions of gallons of water is used. The destruction of our earth surface is ignored. Where is the Environmental impact analysis on this?

We have to look into the toxicity of lithium ion batteries next and see what the Environmental hit is on those.

It is definitely known that ozone is a byproduct of electric motors. That will be the morons next decade’s crisis. Too much Ozone…. Destroying the atmosphere.

There are over 5.25 billion cell phones in use today

That’s 13,100,000,000 pounds of coal per year to operate phones

That’s 27.2 Billion pounds of carbon emissions

No problems there.....

Now TVs...All 1.6 billion of them @ 126 kwh per year ave.

Remember it takes 1.25 pounds of coal to burn to generate 1kwh

That’s 252,000,000,000 pounds of coal per year

521,600,000,000 pounds of carbon emissions just to watch TV

More liberal hypocrisy….In 2019, Facebook produced 13,300,000,000 pounds of carbon emissions in 2019 alone....That’s billions....Their energy usage was 5,100,000,000 kWh of electricity. They will claim that they use some magical net zero carbon neutral power source... what BS.

Stop using your cell phones immediately, sorry Hollywood you’re out of business because you’re crushing our planet. No more social media either. Not at the expense of our planet.

Oh and imagine having the holidays at your house....better have 10 charging stations ready. There will be those relatives that will need a charge....at your expense.

[Lawineer]

Lol what? They won’t require more energy use as the battery degrades- at least nothing remotely significant. The battery won’t have as much range, but that’s because it has less capacity. It’s like your gas tank shrinking, not your engine size growing.


Phones, TVs, vibrators, whatever- yes they use electricity- much of which comes from
Coal. What does that have to do with reducing coal consumption via electric cars?

[Scott_in_fl]

^^^ I think the point is that EV's require more electricity each year to charge them enough to output the same number of miles they did when new. This is because battery life/capacity degrades over time/charging cycles.

The analysis shared by Gen5snake is similar to what I've seen before and seems sound. It is a shame that this is hidden from the masses that elect all of these idiots that we call politicians into office, where they become fat/wealthy from the system they created/ruined.

[Lawineer]

^^^ I think the point is that EV's require more electricity each year to charge them enough to output the same number of miles they did when new. This is because battery life/capacity degrades over time/charging cycles.

The analysis shared by Gen5snake is similar to what I've seen before and seems sound. It is a shame that this is hidden from the masses that elect all of these idiots that we call politicians into office, where they become fat/wealthy from the system they created/ruined.

But it doesn't. It may require more charges, because the battery has diminished capacity, but it doesn't use more electricity per mile. It's like your gas tank shrinking. The motors don't become less efficient- at least not notably.
Heck, compare the emissions and mileage of a new vs 100k miles of a car engine vs electric motor, lol.

I'm not drawn to electric cars for the sake of the environment- though it's nice to be greener I suppose. I like it because I dont have to go to gas stations anymore, I don't have to pay for gas, I dont have to get oil changes- heck I dont have to worry about any maintenance for a decade and there are some impressive performance figures for a daily driver. Everything from instant and max torque to amazing "digital" AWD systems for everything from snow to road courses. All that stuff is a really big deal. Being able to slow inside wheels and deliver power to wheels to rotate cars and get maximum power down is huge for the track. Having 100% to negative 100% in 0.01 seconds (probably less) torque vectoring to any wheel is amazing for driving in low traction surfaces too.

They're not 100% there yet for me, but they're getting closer. When I can get an E-SUV that isn't ugly AF with 700+ hp with a real interior (so not a Tesla) for around $75k, I'll pull the trigger. I'm not really interested in one for my weekend car though.

Electric cars aren't a silver bullet. They aren't 100% perfectly green. They do a lot of things better and have other draw backs- no doubt. I think the overall package is probably better for the environment, globally. But that's secondary to the other perks.

[Jack B]

An all electric society is a pipe dream at this point. A single quick charge outlet can be a 20 kW demand. The majority of homes do not pull 20 kW unless they have electric heat or multiple AC units. The point is, you cannot double the countries electric demand over night. You have two issues, we as a country do not have the generation capacity nor the distribution infrastructue. These comments are based upon my knowledge as an insider in this industry.

[Mikey]

I don't have enough IQ points for this conversation

[Reaper]

Nobody talks about battery replacements on these EVs. You know at some point the batteries will have to be replaced and there are so many of them in a EV. How many thousands of dollars is a new battery pack or a new electric motor in a Tesla? Years ago, I heard it was 5K for a Prius battery pack and that was just a hybrid, not full EV. Sure you might not have to change the oil in one or stop at a gas station but long term maintenance, these will have expensive costs too over the life of ownership. Look at the environmental impact of millions of tons of batteries that have to be recycled. No carbon footprint there. Or the massive carbon footprint it takes to make a EV, all the sourcing or precious metals around the globe. Seems to be kind of a paradox talking about this on a Viper forum. Almost like sharing cake recipes on a Jenny Craig forum. I'll keep my gas guzzlers.

[Lawineer]

An all electric society is a pipe dream at this point. A single quick charge outlet can be a 20 kW demand. The majority of homes do not pull 20 kW unless they have electric heat or multiple AC units. The point is, you cannot double the countries electric demand over night. You have two issues, we as a country do not have the generation capacity nor the distribution infrastructue. These comments are based upon my knowledge as an insider in this industry.

No one said it was going to happen overnight. Heck, the average American car is 12 years old. If even 1/10 of new cars were electric (we're currently at 1/50), that would mean we'd be at something like 5% of cars on the road being electric in 12 years (plus whatever it is now, so maybe 6 or 7%). It's not overnight. It's probably more like 20-25 years, at most, to get to even 30% electric.
Cool thing is, we can build more power plants, add solar capabilities, etc over the next 30 years.

I'm sure people said the same thing about gasoline powered cars vs. horses when there weren't many gas stations too.

But who really cares what percentage of cars are electric now or tomorrow? How does that make it any more or less practical for you? Only reason it doesn't make sense for me, personally, is that I dont have another garage spot for it. My daily gets parked outside, which obviously wont work for recharging at night.

[Lawineer]

Nobody talks about battery replacements on these EVs. You know at some point the batteries will have to be replaced and there are so many of them in a EV. How many thousands of dollars is a new battery pack or a new electric motor in a Tesla? Years ago, I heard it was 5K for a Prius battery pack and that was just a hybrid, not full EV. Sure you might not have to change the oil in one or stop at a gas station but long term maintenance, these will have expensive costs too over the life of ownership. Look at the environmental impact of millions of tons of batteries that have to be recycled. No carbon footprint there. Or the massive carbon footprint it takes to make a EV, all the sourcing or precious metals around the globe. Seems to be kind of a paradox talking about this on a Viper forum. Almost like sharing cake recipes on a Jenny Craig forum. I'll keep my gas guzzlers.

https://www.motorbiscuit.com/how-man...-a-tesla-last/
"The average Tesla battery degrades about 10 percent after 160,000 miles, which means it’s still at 90 percent of its peak performance even after that many miles. Recharging does reduce a battery’s ability to hold a charge, especially if a full charge is needed daily. Most people won’t need to charge that completely though."

According to Elon's tweet: "Model 3 drive unit & body is designed like a commercial truck for a million mile life. Current battery modules should last 300k to 500k miles (1500 cycles). Replacing modules (not pack) will only cost $5k to $7k."

over 450k miles, you'll spend over $7k on oil changes and go through something like 150 gallons of oil.

https://www.findmyelectric.com/blog/...-battery-last/
They expect about 400-500k miles before the battery capacity degrades by 20%. So instead of being able to hold enough juice for 350 miles, it will only hold enough juice to go 280 miles after 400k miles, lol. Whatever, I am not worried about that. I'm guessing stuff like wear, tear, wanting a new car, etc is going to get me to buy a new car by 100k miles.

[ViperSRT]

Lawineer I think you are overstating the lifespan of the Tesla batteries. I realize they are working on new chemistries but Li-Ion lifespans are nothing like descibed. A cell phone battery is garbage after 3 years. Our robot vacuum battery was junk after 2 years.

If they are using optimal recharge cycles only I could see sa long life. However that is far from how many will use them. Keeping the car fully charged every night will be the norm as you just never know what tomorrow will bring. Keeping a Li-Ion battery topped off daily degrades the lifespan dramatically.

I also think the a statement of the chassis lifespan of a million mile life is a pipe dream. I would like to see that on Michigan roads! Elon talks a good game, but only Teslaphiles would believe any of it.

That said I can see getting an EV in the next few years for a city car. Without dramatic improvement in battery capacity and charging rate I don't see one replacing our longer distance vehicle with several 1000 mile plus drives a year.

[Lawineer]

Lawineer I think you are overstating the lifespan of the Tesla batteries. I realize they are working on new chemistries but Li-Ion lifespans are nothing like descibed. A cell phone battery is garbage after 3 years. Our robot vacuum battery was junk after 2 years.

If they are using optimal recharge cycles only I could see sa long life. However that is far from how many will use them. Keeping the car fully charged every night will be the norm as you just never know what tomorrow will bring. Keeping a Li-Ion battery topped off daily degrades the lifespan dramatically.

I also think the a statement of the chassis lifespan of a million mile life is a pipe dream. I would like to see that on Michigan roads! Elon talks a good game, but only Teslaphiles would believe any of it.

That said I can see getting an EV in the next few years for a city car. Without dramatic improvement in battery capacity and charging rate I don't see one replacing our longer distance vehicle with several 1000 mile plus drives a year.

I think it normally charges to 90% unless you manually ask it to go to 100%. People I know are fine with it. 320 miles instead of 350 miles. Still plenty for a single day. If it wasn't, they probably wouldn't have one to begin with.

If you do a lot of road trips, it's probably not for you, yet.

[ViperSRT]

I think it normally charges to 90% unless you manually ask it to go to 100%. People I know are fine with it. 320 miles instead of 350 miles. Still plenty for a single day. If it wasn't, they probably wouldn't have one to begin with.

If you do a lot of road trips, it's probably not for you, yet.

Optimal life for Li-Ion is at the lowest DoD (depth of discharge) and lowest peak charge. A 90% charge daily will reduce the longevity by about 75% vs peak charge of 60%. For instance for a standard Li-Ion cell at room temp and discharged 25% each cycle the battery charged at 90% will last around 6000 cycles whereas one charged to 70% will last more than 14,000 cycles. If those cycles look really high take into account that battery life degrades dramatically over 80F. As an engineer I always look at stated numbers and try to understand the basis. Optimum temperature, optimum charge percentage, optimal speed for mileage accumulation (discharge rate), and optimal depth of discharge, etc can result in very impressive numbers. Most won't in real life. But sure take that million mile life for the vehicle and 500k mile battery life and bank on it. For many people that would be 1 car for a lifetime, if it were true.

[Blue09]

No one said it was going to happen overnight. Heck, the average American car is 12 years old. If even 1/10 of new cars were electric (we're currently at 1/50)...

More like 1/250 (100% EV not including hybrids), there are about 270m cars/light trucks (active) in USA

[Blue09]

...pounds of carbon emissions...

100% irrelevant, mankind's contribution to atmospheric CO2 is essentially meaningless in the context of what the Earth/oceans do...

There is absolutely no correlation between mankind's CO2 contribution (aka 'carbon emissions') and what is measured at reporting stations across the planet.

Case in point, last year, due to lockdown's/etc huge drop in 'combustion' occurred, absolutely no reflection of that at all in atmospheric measurements.

Actually no reflection of any petroleum production/usage in CO2 measurements, the actual measurements are gradual and fluctuate based on seasonal factors, the oceans sequester and emit CO2 and occasionally volcanoes emit quite a lot as well.

Not only that, but the CO2 increase in the past 60 years is 100ppm or 1/10,000 atmospheric concentration, plants notice it because they will all die if CO2 drops below 170ppm, great for crops as CO2 is literally plant food.
co2_oil_1960_2020_overlay.PNG

[Scott_in_fl]

Interesting discussion. Learning lots about something I have little knowledge about.

[viperBase1]

Optimum temperature, optimum charge percentage, optimal speed for mileage accumulation (discharge rate), and optimal depth of discharge, etc can result in very impressive numbers.

Fun thread.

Another consideration for the power grid: (in regards to the efficiency of delivering the "consumable energy" to the target [car battery v.s. gas tank])
The matter of Temperature also impacts the transport efficiency and delivery of electricity. (i.e. over the power lines).

Under the best conditions, the transport efficiency of electricity is ~75% (+/-) ..fingers crossed there will be improvements to the grid that will make it better.
During summer months and/or in hotter climates, the transport efficiency of electricity can be reduced by as much as ~40%.
The transport efficiency of electricity to charge electric cars can be "seasonal" depending on your location.

On the other hand, the transport efficiency of pump gas is ~90% and is not affected by temperature or seasonal factors.

[Gen5snake]

Lol what? They won’t require more energy use as the battery degrades- at least nothing remotely significant.

Huh? Charging a battery twice a day versus once a day doesn't use more energy? You buy a new phone and you initially can get three days out of a full charge....6 months later, you're charging it twice a day. That's not using more energy? Electric fantasy, rainbow, unicorns, net zero, carbon neutral la la land. I know I'm being a little prickly, but c'mon man... Joey baby.




More clueless fantasy: Let's be 100% dependent on a single energy source. That's brilliant. Run everything on electricity....so one of our adversaries can disable/hack into our power grid and bring the entire country to its knees. Am I being dramatic? Sure....but not really. But again...what about ozone?

Climate change is a bunch of nonsense. Any mathematician will know there is simply not enough data to extrapolate an accurate trajectory of temperature/climate change. They started calling it "global warming", then they changed it to "climate change"....because you can measure warming, but impossible to quantify change. I'm over 50 and I haven't witnessed anything different. I grew up on shoreline and all the landmarks at the shore are exactly the same. Weather is cyclical. Bottom line. They are extrapolating off of a 100 or 50 years worth of data...they need to get into the millions of years to get anywhere close to predicting with accuracy.

The scientists say....We follow the science....who the hell are these people? Just like if you're fully vaccinated, everything will be okay. We will achieve herd immunity. Ha ha. Chronic state of emergency....make hasty decisions....you don't know if you're coming or going. Covid, Climate change....Climate change Covid....Covid....new variant....Climate emergency. Laughable.