My Gen 4 to Gen 5 Intake Swap - Initial Dyno

[IndyRon]

Hey all,
I finally got to make some pulls today with the Gen 5 intake installed and the RSI smooth tubes. The results were interesting (and disappointing) at least at first glance. This was my 2nd run from the session last week and my second run from today. My car when doing back to back runs without any cool down lost about 5rwhp on the 2nd runs and about 3rwhp more on the 3rd run. Keep in mind, I don't shut the car off, just let it idle on the rollers for a minute or so to see the computer screen results and make another pull. Check that graph out and I'll explain below the nuances of the run. Blue is baseline, red is Gen 5 intake.



So, the car made a fair amount more torque (and power) up to about 5100rpm, at which point, the gains flattened out and were almost exactly the same as OEM. In this case, at 4750rpm, gains were about 17rwhp and 18rwtq. Here is the interesting part. The car seemed to not like the new intake over 5100rpm and on this run, I got a check engine light. The car didn't go into limp mode and ran fine on the way home. With the cheap OBD2 scan tool, it gave codes P0051 and P0059. According to the guys at the shop checking into them, those are Bank2 O2 sensor codes. I'm not sure exactly what's going on with that as I haven't changed the O2 sensors on the car and it sill has factory manifolds, so unlikely that a wire is melted or damaged.

I'm going on Monday to the dealership to have the Mopar PCM installed. My initial thought is that the factory PCM doesn't like the changes in airflow/increased airflow and power that it is sensing and is pulling timing and/or richening the A/F ratio, thinking the car is leaning out. If you look at the A/F ratio graph at the bottom, the car is running about 1/2 point leaner up until 5100rpm, then the graphs cross and it goes about 0.25-0.5 points richer.

I'm totally open to thoughts. I'm leaving the codes so that the dealership can pull them and evaluate on their equipment. My suspicion is that this is what you get when you try to add the intake with the factory PCM in the car though. I also have the smooth tubes on the car. The PCV is in the OEM arrangement minus the catch can in line and I'm confident that there are no vacuum leaks. Stay tuned.

[FLATOUT]

Very interesting the only other non Mopar ECU car with a gen V intake is Shooters car and it hasn't been on the dyno yet.

It definitely picked up some good gains through the middle. Interested in your Mopar ECU results.

Here's mine (bottom to middle graphs)

[FrgMstr]

I'm going on Monday to the dealership to have the Mopar PCM installed.

That will fix your "issue" most likely.

[IndyRon]

I'm hoping it does. I'll run the car again next week to find out. Andy looks like you are keeping the gains throughout the top of the powerband which is what I'm hoping will happen.

[FLATOUT]

I'm hoping it does. I'll run the car again next week to find out. Andy looks like he is keeping the gains throughout the top of the powerband which is what I'm hoping will happen.

Retorque everything again also just to make sure you don't have any leaks. The other thing that is interesting is that your numbers went down. My car always seems to pick up 5-8 RWHP on the second or third pull. I wonder if something is causing it to pull timing? The race ECU might fix that issue if it exists.

[IndyRon]

Retorque everything again also just to make sure you don't have any leaks. The other thing that is interesting is that your numbers went down. My car always seems to pick up 5-8 RWHP on the second or third pull. I wonder if something is causing it to pull timing? The race ECU might fix that issue if it exists.

I'll definitely go over everything again. It may be the crap old winter fuel left over here also. I do think it is rare to gain hp with successive runs. Most cars will lose a little power with additional runs due to heat soak. That's a good problem to have!

[FLATOUT]

True but these damn ECUs are so sensitive they will add and pull timing for strange reasons sometimes. Mine consistently does this.

I'll definitely go over everything again. It may be the crap old winter fuel left over here also. I do think it is rare to gain hp with successive runs. Most cars will lose a little power with additional runs due to heat soak. That's a good problem to have!

[FrgMstr]

I bet you a dollar to a donut hole it is all about the computer.

[IndyRon]

Frgmstr, is that dyno run before and after Gen 5 intake? I'm assuming you have headers and PCM on the before run there based on the HP? That's what I'm hoping my graph will look like after this PCM install. My graph looks a little jagged, even though smoothing is set to 5. I'm going to change the plugs and wires as well and throw a little more octane in for the next runs as well.

[TooBlue]

The new PCM install will clean it up. You will like the gains.

I hope to get mine on the dyno soon. I still need to replace the broken trans. from COTA.

My damn knee replacement recovery is keeping me from getting anything done right now...

[Revolution]

Great to see people posting dyno's with AFR's that gives a much clear picture whats going on!

[FLATOUT]

I'll try to get AFR's next time also

[FrgMstr]

Frgmstr, is that dyno run before and after Gen 5 intake? I'm assuming you have headers and PCM on the before run there based on the HP? That's what I'm hoping my graph will look like after this PCM install. My graph looks a little jagged, even though smoothing is set to 5. I'm going to change the plugs and wires as well and throw a little more octane in for the next runs as well.

Yes exactly. Belanger headers, cat delete, Corsa catbacks 2.5", Mopar PCM. The only mod made between those runs is Gen V intake only. Drove it a good bit in between to make sure the computer set up.

[IndyRon]

Thanks for the input guys. Its great to have a group of Gen 4 guys that like making the car faster. I actually think what is happening the more I think about is the car is pulling timing at that point, which is causing the AFR to become richer as it measures more airflow and more power output/leaner conditions. Since I'm impatient, I installed the UD pulley last night so the next overlay will have to take that into account. This $80 dyno run session per mod is getting a little pricey. I also bought 20 gals of VP MS103 unleaded to cut my Shell 93 with as some folks stated in earlier threads that the Mopar PCM likes 94-95 octane. I'm going to MAKE SURE that timing retard isn't going to be an issue next run. I gotta get this pig moving and in top form before the headers go on! 550 ain't cuttin' it....especially with so many other folks running around at 600+ Don't want to be the fat kid at the end of the 40 yard dash.

[FLATOUT]

You will make more HPMwith the 103 octane.

[Revolution]

Thanks for the input guys. Its great to have a group of Gen 4 guys that like making the car faster. I actually think what is happening the more I think about is the car is pulling timing at that point, which is causing the AFR to become richer as it measures more airflow and more power output/leaner conditions. Since I'm impatient, I installed the UD pulley last night so the next overlay will have to take that into account. This $80 dyno run session per mod is getting a little pricey. I also bought 20 gals of VP MS103 unleaded to cut my Shell 93 with as some folks stated in earlier threads that the Mopar PCM likes 94-95 octane. I'm going to MAKE SURE that timing retard isn't going to be an issue next run. I gotta get this pig moving and in top form before the headers go on! 550 ain't cuttin' it....especially with so many other folks running around at 600+ Don't want to be the fat kid at the end of the 40 yard dash.

Great nice to see what the UD does what brand did you go with Ron? I think this year will be an impressive and ground breaking year for us Gen 4 guys/gals!

[IndyRon]

Great nice to see what the UD does what brand did you go with Ron? I think this year will be an impressive and ground breaking year for us Gen 4 guys/gals!

I went with the IPSCO pulley. Nice unit and he supplied replacement 10.9 metric bolts with it as well. There was a question about the amount of play in the bolt holes and concern that it may allow the pulley to wobble or not be centered on the crank centerline. I don't know about the other units out there, but the IPSCO is a slight interference fit so that it is self centering before you torque it down. No worries there.

I changed out the plugs today. They were the original champion's from '09. When I checked them, it looked like a standard plug (non-platinum), there was just the faintest outline of where a platinum disc used to be on the electrode. They measured out at between 0.051" and 0.055". I replaced them with the stock heat range NGK platinum 3381's. Gapped to 0.040". I also found one of my vacuum lines collapsed while idling on the catch can and fixed that. Whatever it was, I didn't reset the computer or disconnect the battery but the check engine light went away after firing it up. Tomorrow morning to Champion CJD to get the PCM installed and if I'm lucky I might sneak on the rollers tomorrow afternoon. It should be good air, high of 68 and sunny.

[Revolution]

Right on can't wait to see the results of the pulley!

[SNKBYT]

That might not be true. I lost Hp with 103 octane. The motor does not have high enough compression to utilize that higher octane. Higher octane actually slows down the burn rate, thus may reduce power. May want to try 95-97 octane. Seem to work better for me. You can mix your own by adding an quality additive like torque fuel. Don't waste your money on 103+ in the can.

You will make more HPMwith the 103 octane.

[FLATOUT]

I watched one consistently pick up 10rwhp on MS109, on multiple occasions. I'm fully aware of burn rates and how octane effects power. I was surprised as well, maybe it was just that car?

That might not be true. I lost Hp with 103 octane. The motor does not have high enough compression to utilize that higher octane. Higher octane actually slows down the burn rate, thus may reduce power. May want to try 95-97 octane. Seem to work better for me. You can mix your own by adding an quality additive like torque fuel. Don't waste your money on 103+ in the can.

[venomous08]

The new PCM install will clean it up. You will like the gains.

I hope to get mine on the dyno soon. I still need to replace the broken trans. from COTA.

My damn knee replacement recovery is keeping me from getting anything done right now...

Can you even keep a trans in that car?? You may be better off, with the new knee and all, to cut a hole in the floor pan and Flintstone it!!!

[IndyRon]

Followup run today after Mopar PCM. The car feels a little more perky all around. Throttle delay that is programmed in from the factory isn't gone but only about 50% as laggy as OEM which is an improvement. Dyno shows that you guys were right, the high RPM stuff is corrected. First is comparing stock, no mufflers, to my current setup which is Mopar PCM, Gen 5 intake, UD pulley. Second is comparing Gen 5 intake only to Gen 5 intake plus Mopar PCM and UD pulley.




I'm impressed that the Gen 5 intake was worth over 30ft/lbs in the upper midrange. I don't think that a Gen 4 ported intake has ever been worth that much in conjunction with a Mopar PCM. I realize the only confounding variable is the UD pulley, which honestly, its hard to see if I gained from. If I did, it was maybe 2-3rwhp. I've noticed no issues with charging, slow speed steering, or temperature so I'll be keeping it. The take home is: you are leaving power on the table if you install the Gen V intake without the Mopar PCM. The car did get a blinking check engine light driving home and limp mode. Got home, read code as random misfire on cyl 5 at 2k rpm during cruising. Cleared the code and car is running fine. Not sure what that was about but will watch to see if it recurs.

[Revolution]

Nice gains, still need someone to dyno just the UD pulley so we can see what it gains by itself! AFR sure leaned out and I imagine feels a lot better up top!

[IndyRon]

Nice gains, still need someone to dyno just the UD pulley so we can see what it gains by itself! AFR sure leaned out and I imagine feels a lot better up top!

I was confident that the UD was going to be worth something but that can't be interpreted by my graphs since I added it in conjunction with the PCM. That said, it doesn't appear to be worth much.

[FrgMstr]

I am planning to do a UD pulley-only change run when I put it on here soon. Been dicking around with too much other stuff.