A Technical Understanding of the Gen5 Oil Level

[Old School]

Lubricating_oil_density_temperature_F.jpg

Lubricating_oil_VCF_base_F.jpg

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/t...50-d_1943.html

These show ~5% volume change between 50F and 200F, which translates to ~1/2 quart in a Viper.

[ViperJon]

Jack, then how do you explain the difference in cold vs. 5 minute shutdown readings that some of us experience? Even though my pictures weren't super clear the arrows show you where the oil level and safe zone were. As I said about 1/2" to 3/4" difference. To me that is pretty huge. What else could be going on?

Because you are the only one "experiencing" that huge of a variation. With a 3" deep oil volume as Jack noted your motor is retaining almost 2-3 quarts of oil before it drains back overnight. Virtually everyone else has an 1/8" variation approximately so maybe 1/2 a quart or less if that.

With 11 quarts of oil in the cold engine with filter it should be about an 1/8" to a 1/4" above the safe line. There is no ambiguity here. I have done this at least 8 times with 3 different Gen V's. My motor was drained dry as a bone and 11 quarts put in EXACTLY. That's where it falls. Unless we have different oil pans.

[ForTehNguyen]

insert the dipstick with the hash/SAFE marks facing the engine. When you remove the dipstick the clean reading will appear on the hash/SAFE side.

[SRT_BluByU]

Lubricating_oil_density_temperature_F.jpg

Lubricating_oil_VCF_base_F.jpg

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/t...50-d_1943.html

These show ~5% volume change between 50F and 200F, which translates to ~1/2 quart in a Viper.

that explains the 1/2 quart difference between 5min (engine at operating temperature) vs. first thing cold in am. This is why i feel the engineering group has the 5 min procedure after warm shutdown in the owners manual. With the volume of oil the Viper has its the only way to baseline the readings to account for all the variations in temperatures that owners could experience acrross the country (or world). i.e someone running the car in Labrador Canada v Saudi Arabia. the morning temps could vary drastically. But if both cars are turned on and warmed up to normal temp (180-200*) they will be the same no matter the geography.

In my mind this supports the directions in the owners manual.

[ViperSRT]

The 5 minutes after shut off procedure is a standard within FCA. Some variation may occur due to oil cooler drain back (oil temp, valve position, sealing, etc).

[ViperGeorge]

Because you are the only one "experiencing" that huge of a variation. With a 3" deep oil volume as Jack noted your motor is retaining almost 2-3 quarts of oil before it drains back overnight. Virtually everyone else has an 1/8" variation approximately so maybe 1/2 a quart or less if that.

With 11 quarts of oil in the cold engine with filter it should be about an 1/8" to a 1/4" above the safe line. There is no ambiguity here. I have done this at least 8 times with 3 different Gen V's. My motor was drained dry as a bone and 11 quarts put in EXACTLY. That's where it falls. Unless we have different oil pans.

I understand completely Jack's analysis and data and I trust him. He knows what he is doing from everything I can see. None the less I experienced the same discrepancies on my TA 2.0 (which if memory serves you disagreed with) and now my ACR. As a result of seeing such a huge variation between cold and warm readings on my TA I reached out to a friend at SRT, a senior engineer. He put me in contact with the engine oil engineer. That engineer, whose response I have previously posted, said he was not surprised at all by the difference. He said the V10 retains a lot of oil after shutdown which eventually drains down to the pan if let to sit. He said in the email to me that this is why they specify a 5 minute window to check oil.

I took the engineer at his word. I know that most people on this site think they know better than the engineers. That's fine, it is their car and they can do what they want. For me it is no big deal to check the oil 5 minutes after shutdown. When I do I always get accurate readings. When I check it cold I am getting high readings. I posted the pictures, you can choose to believe them or not. I think though that most people on this forum that have paid attention to my posts will believe that what I posted is my actual observations. I did not make them up nor did I forge the email from the engine engineer. I cannot explain the difference between Jack's data and my own observation on two of my cars unless it doe have something to do with the Viper Specialty oil lines allowing more oil to drain out of the cooler. Both of the cars I have observed this on had those lines.

My GTS is under my lift so I can't open the hood to check its level and I don't have time to move the cars around right now to verify whether it has the same issue. It also has the Viper Specialty oil lines which were added a little while ago after the OEM lines started leaking. In any event I will continue to check mine during the 5 minute window. I had previously said I would not post any further about checking oil levels and I did not follow my own promise. So, now I will sign off of this thread. It just is not that important to me as I know which way I will check my oil.

Best, George

[txA&M08]

Jack, the photos were taken with a Canon 80D with an 18-200mm Canon lens. I had to shrink the file size to post them.

Just a quick side note. Minimum focus distance is 45cm/1.5' with that lens, so you might've just been too close. You can always back up a tad, to get a focus lock, and then crop the image in closer.

[AZTVR]

George, I am glad that you responded with your observations. You are certainly NOT the only one that I have read reporting
similar results. Perhaps not as large of a difference; but, as I have read, non-engineering folk have posted pretty non-specific results. That is one reason why Jack was looking for some scientific evidence that doesn't involve various people's uncontrolled observations.

I have the same mindset as Jack, having been a test engineer for 30 years, trying to identify root cause of anomalous results and failures. I would be more than happy to perform a set of experiments on your ACR/TA in order to determine why you are experiencing what you are reporting. I would come up with my trailer, and bring it back to my shop to get all of the results in a controlled environment. Then I would return it after a set of required road tests which would occur the weekend after next at Chuckwalla Raceway in Desert Center, CA.

I understand completely Jack's analysis and data and I trust him. He knows what he is doing from everything I can see. None the less I experienced the same discrepancies on my TA 2.0 (which if memory serves you disagreed with) and now my ACR. As a result of seeing such a huge variation between cold and warm readings on my TA I reached out to a friend at SRT, a senior engineer. He put me in contact with the engine oil engineer. That engineer, whose response I have previously posted, said he was not surprised at all by the difference. He said the V10 retains a lot of oil after shutdown which eventually drains down to the pan if let to sit. He said in the email to me that this is why they specify a 5 minute window to check oil.

I took the engineer at his word. I know that most people on this site think they know better than the engineers. That's fine, it is their car and they can do what they want. For me it is no big deal to check the oil 5 minutes after shutdown. When I do I always get accurate readings. When I check it cold I am getting high readings. I posted the pictures, you can choose to believe them or not. I think though that most people on this forum that have paid attention to my posts will believe that what I posted is my actual observations. I did not make them up nor did I forge the email from the engine engineer. I cannot explain the difference between Jack's data and my own observation on two of my cars unless it doe have something to do with the Viper Specialty oil lines allowing more oil to drain out of the cooler. Both of the cars I have observed this on had those lines.

My GTS is under my lift so I can't open the hood to check its level and I don't have time to move the cars around right now to verify whether it has the same issue. It also has the Viper Specialty oil lines which were added a little while ago after the OEM lines started leaking. In any event I will continue to check mine during the 5 minute window. I had previously said I would not post any further about checking oil levels and I did not follow my own promise. So, now I will sign off of this thread. It just is not that important to me as I know which way I will check my oil.

Best, George

[Viper Specialty]

LOL...

Definitely nothing to do with the oil lines. A hose is a hose, nothing magical about it.

Just a few points;

5 minutes is the standard, yes. There is a reason too- in 5 minutes, you are going to have true pan level, with any large flows being returned. However, you are also going to have full galleries, lifters, pushrods, cooler, hoses, etc. The 5 minute check when warm is the proper method, everything else is irrelevant.

That said, there are some obvious reasons for discrepancies. The most glaring being that "Not all oil filters are created equal!". The Mopar filters, from what I have seen, tend to have lousy anti-drainback valves. We only use Mobil-1 filters for this reason alone. If you have a bad valve, and end up with the contents of all galleries, cooler and lines draining back to the pan... sure, that's going to make a BIG difference in level.

Secondly, you need to make sure the dipstick sits OUTSIDE the tube for a few minutes before you check, and it must be installed the same way every time. I have seen the dipstick tube cool and pull oil up into it more than a few times. Some additives [which I dont recommend] make this problem much worse.

So... want to check oil levels?

-Engine hot
-Level surface
-Turn off engine
-Remove dipstick and clean
-Wait 5 minutes
-Insert and remove distick to check level.
-Make sure whoever you are comparing to is always inserting the dipstick the same way.

[ViperGeorge]

LOL...

Definitely nothing to do with the oil lines. A hose is a hose, nothing magical about it.

Just a few points;

5 minutes is the standard, yes. There is a reason too- in 5 minutes, you are going to have true pan level, with any large flows being returned. However, you are also going to have full galleries, lifters, pushrods, cooler, hoses, etc. The 5 minute check when warm is the proper method, everything else is irrelevant.

That said, there are some obvious reasons for discrepancies. The most glaring being that "Not all oil filters are created equal!". The Mopar filters, from what I have seen, tend to have lousy anti-drainback valves. We only use Mobil-1 filters for this reason alone. If you have a bad valve, and end up with the contents of all galleries, cooler and lines draining back to the pan... sure, that's going to make a BIG difference in level.

Secondly, you need to make sure the dipstick sits OUTSIDE the tube for a few minutes before you check, and it must be installed the same way every time. I have seen the dipstick tube cool and pull oil up into it more than a few times. Some additives [which I dont recommend] make this problem much worse.

So... want to check oil levels?

-Engine hot
-Level surface
-Turn off engine
-Remove dipstick and clean
-Wait 5 minutes
-Insert and remove distick to check level.
-Make sure whoever you are comparing to is always inserting the dipstick the same way.

I said I wasn't going to post on this thread again but I thought I should clarify my last post re your hoses. To be clear, I don't think there is anything wrong with your oil lines and that is why I have put them on at least 4 of my Vipers over time. And I used the expensive good ones. I was more thinking that maybe the routing of the hose might cause a drain down of the cooler. As you say probably unrelated. I could envision that if the original lines ran high they might prevent a drain down of the cooler. If the new lines were installed in such a way to provide a downward slope for the oil then maybe. I didn't install the lines myself I had my Viper tech do it so I have no idea if there was any difference in routing. Probably not.

On the other hand your explanation of discrepancies in oil level is EXACTLY what the SRT engineer told me. By the way I do use the Mopar SRT Viper filter.

[Evil v10]

I always was told and was under the impression that SRT oil filters were the best for Vipers,I used them on gen 2 Viper and on my gen 5.

[Jack B]

Jack, then how do you explain the difference in cold vs. 5 minute shutdown readings that some of us experience? Even though my pictures weren't super clear the arrows show you where the oil level and safe zone were. As I said about 1/2" to 3/4" difference. To me that is pretty huge. What else could be going on?

It is the smear, the volume (cold to hot) does not expand enough to be measured, that cannot be disputed. Secondly, 3/4" on the stick is approx 3.5 qt, where does it hide, the only explanation is the eye and the smear. As I have said, start the car and measure the oil while running. the level does not change much from a cold level. Lastly, if 3.5 qt drains from your engine (impossible) your car would clatter each time you start it cold

I have a new stick on order, I will compare the two sticks and add that data to this thread.

[Jack B]

I always was told and was under the impression that SRT oil filters were the best for Vipers,I used them on gen 2 Viper and on my gen 5.

The Gen5 filter was supposedly designed for that specific car. I change my filter way too often and it has never been anything but full when it comes off.

[Topplayer]

It is the smear, the volume (cold to hot) does not expand enough to be measured, that cannot be disputed. Secondly, 3/4" on the stick is approx 3.5 qt, where does it hide, the only explanation is the eye and the smear. As I have said, start the car and measure the oil while running. the level does not change much from a cold level. Lastly, if 3.5 qt drains from your engine (impossible) your car would clatter each time you start it cold

I have a new stick on order, I will compare the two sticks and add that data to this thread.

I look forward to your results on the updated stick. I purchased the updated stick for my 13 and find it harder to read than the original.

[SRT_BluByU]

It is the smear, the volume (cold to hot) does not expand enough to be measured, that cannot be disputed. Secondly, 3/4" on the stick is approx 3.5 qt, where does it hide, the only explanation is the eye and the smear. As I have said, start the car and measure the oil while running. the level does not change much from a cold level. Lastly, if 3.5 qt drains from your engine (impossible) your car would clatter each time you start it cold

I have a new stick on order, I will compare the two sticks and add that data to this thread.

Jack,
My results agree with the expansion charts posted above. I noticed a 1/2 quart difference between cold engine off check and 5 min. after warmed shutdown check. 2017

[Jack B]

That is approx 1/10" in the safe area.

that explains the 1/2 quart difference between 5min (engine at operating temperature) vs. first thing cold in am. This is why i feel the engineering group has the 5 min procedure after warm shutdown in the owners manual. With the volume of oil the Viper has its the only way to baseline the readings to account for all the variations in temperatures that owners could experience acrross the country (or world). i.e someone running the car in Labrador Canada v Saudi Arabia. the morning temps could vary drastically. But if both cars are turned on and warmed up to normal temp (180-200*) they will be the same no matter the geography.

In my mind this supports the directions in the owners manual.

F

[SRT_BluByU]

no.. on the 2017 stick the safe area is only 1 quart (1/2 quart down is half the safe distance). i think youre forgetting the stick you have and I have are different.


Edit:
If you look at the expansion charts above you'll notice 11qts at room temp v. 200* is about 1/2" quart total.

[ViperJon]

It is the smear, the volume (cold to hot) does not expand enough to be measured, that cannot be disputed. Secondly, 3/4" on the stick is approx 3.5 qt, where does it hide, the only explanation is the eye and the smear. .

Forget it Jack. Despite being physically impossible some people just cannot be convinced they are wrong. Not worth the effort.

[ViperSRT]

no.. on the 2017 stick the safe area is only 1 quart (1/2 quart down is half the safe distance). i think youre forgetting the stick you have and I have are different.


Edit:
If you look at the expansion charts above you'll notice 11qts at room temp v. 290* is about 1/2" quart total. T

I hope your oil isn't at 290 F when you check it. I expect it is more likely around 200 F.

[Voice of Reason]

I hope your oil isn't at 290 F when you check it. I expect it is more likely around 200 F.

LMAO at 290* the oil would be so thin it would almost run off the dipstick before you had it pulled from the tube making it impossible to eyeball measure.

[SRT_BluByU]

I hope your oil isn't at 290 F when you check it. I expect it is more likely around 200 F.

Ha - yes Typo!

[river rat]

Can we now go back to discussing what type of oil to use?

[StrokerAce]

Can we now go back to discussing what type of oil to use?

Extra virgin olive oil.

[Jack B]

I hope your oil isn't at 290 F when you check it. I expect it is more likely around 200 F.

Think about it this way, it is self modulating. Let say you check it after five minutes, the oil temp (normal driving) might be 180F, therefore, it is approx 1/8 higher than if it was measured at 80F. You come back a couple of hours later and the oil temp is back to 80F, the level should lower because it is cooler, however, some top oil has leaked back into the pan - self regulating.

[SRT_BluByU]

1/8” is a half qt on the new stick. Why ignore the owners manual recommendations?