New TPMS

[osuaero]

Gen III Coupe

Recently replaced tires and TPMS sensors at local tire shop. Although two separate people at said shop confirmed they could install and program compatible sensors it turns out they cannot due to the lack of a DRB III. Thus, I am now stuck with non-functioning sensors inside tires I would rather not have removed.

Sensors installed: Schrader 33520 EZ Sensor or BH Sens 4041 (433 MHz universal sensor)

I know I should know what is in there, however, this was a recommended shop I've used before and they seemed competent during the TPMS discussions I had before install so I didn't hover as much as I should. I'm not sure which sensor brand is in the tire as I was unable to see at install. The discrepancy arises as the tech says they used Schrader but my receipt says BH Sens. Regardless, either sensor should work I believe?

I took the car to a local Dodge dealer to relearn the new sensors and they could not find the sensors with their equipment. I know the tire shop communicated with the installed sensors with a Bartec Pro Series as I was standing there when they did it. Not sure why the dealer couldn't find them as I was never allowed to talk directly to the tech.

I am going to try another local dealer, but before I go I want to make sure I have everything straight. Does anyone have experience pairing the sensors mentioned above to a Gen III/IV? I assume either of those sensors will require a trigger tool during relearn such as the Bartec rather than a magnet?

Wish I had a DRB III to figure it out on my own rather than relying on a dealer. This has been maddening....

[Steve M]

You need to call Steve-Indy.

[osuaero]

I was hoping to get in contact with him, but I don't have his direct contact info and I noticed he doesn't like PM, so thought a new post might be the most direct route to find him.

[Steve M]

Try this: https://driveviper.com/forums/thread...l=1#post419328

[osuaero]

Excellent. Thank you.

[Steve M]

Now, to shed at least a little light on your issue, I'll add what I know from dealing with the TPMS on my Gen 4 as well as my daily driven Toyota Tacoma.

First, the incompetence of shops dealing with TPMS sensors seems to know no bounds. Lots of shops claim to be able to handle TPMS issues, but a lot of them are full of shit. That's why I invested in a couple of my own tools to just do it myself.

The easiest way to deal with your problem would have been to clone your old sensors. Do you still have them by any chance?

The sensors themselves are the standard 433 MHz variety...the only thing that makes any difference to the car is what code they bark when asked to report their info. The car doesn't know what brand of sensor is in your car, and doesn't care.

I couldn't find any info about the Schrader sensors you listed above, but the BH Sens 4041 appears to be the programmable kind. What they should have done first was pinged your old sensors with their scan tool to read out the codes. Each wheel has a unique code, but the Gen 3/4 cars don't track which corner each sensor is on - it's a pretty dumb system compared to others out there since it can only tell you if one of the tires is low/flat, but not which one. Once they had the codes, all they had to do was program the new sensors with those same codes and install them. It's really that simple. If they wanted to be thorough, they would have pinged the new sensors to verify their programming. Either they were spitting out the same codes or they weren't. Even if the old sensors were dead, the code is still physically written on them.

Another piece of info: when you receive new, blank sensors, you have to wake them up. The programming process should have done that - it usually involves a magnet of some sort. The programming pad I have has a magnet embedded in it that does this. Again, this should not have caused any issues...it's very straightforward to do, and should have been verified by the shop prior to install.

If they programmed them with new unique IDs, then you need to have a DRB III so you can reprogram the TPMS module in the car. Again, not impossible, but I don't know of any aftermarket tools that will allow you to do this, so you are stuck needing a DRB III. That's where Steve-Indy should be able to help you find someone with that tool and walk them through the process.

I'm not sure where you are located, but if you can't figure this out, I could potentially help you program new sensors, but I'd need the old ones to do it, and you'd have to find someone that could install them for you. Obviously that would involve spending more money, so hopefully it doesn't come to that. The sensors I used were about $25 each, and are made by Alligator (a German company).

[osuaero]

Thank you for the info.

Unfortunately I do not have the old sensors. Wish I would have done more research on this prior to going down the rabbit hole.

I know the sensors are awake and transmitting as I could see the ID readout on their Bartec tool. So they are hopefully good to go.

I think my biggest issue is having to rely on the dealer for access to a DRB III and their lack of knowledge on this particular subject. It's also getting more difficult to get them to allow you back in the shop while the work is being performed. Thus, I can only rely on what I'm told rather than what I witness. I feel like I could probably work it out on my own if they would give me 30 min with their DRB III.

I'm in Tulsa, OK.

[Steve M]

The only minor nit that may have caused an issue was how their tool reads out the old codes and programs the new ones.

My scan tool (Autel TS501) reads out codes and displays them in hex format. The codes physically written on my old sensors were in base 10. The only thing that tipped me off was that I was expecting to see an 8-digit code, but there were only 6 digits on the scan tool's screen. Well, that and letters appearing in some of the 6-digit codes, but not all of them. To be clear, they were still the same codes, just different formats. If you took each of the 6-digit hex IDs and converted them to base 10 (plenty of web-based converters out there), they were the same as what was written on the sensors.

The sensors for my truck I programmed in hex, but for some reason the ones for my Viper I had to program in base 10. The software for the programming tool I used already knew this, and I can only assume their fancy Bartec would too. It's minor, but could be an issue if someone wasn't paying attention.

[Old School]

I borrowed a friends DRB3 and was able to program my Gen3's in a matter of minutes, without ever using a DRB3 before. If I new what I was doing, the whole process would take a couple minutes.

[Steve-Indy]

I had a nice talk with the original poster...a knowledgeable guy.


I have no quick answer to the problem as I just ran into this issue 3 weeks ago....cloned Schrader sensors on a 2010, already installed, with no ability to program them to TPS module using my magnet and DRB III.

I suggested he contact Dan Lesser with his specific info for a possible solution.

It will be interesting to hear outcome.

[osuaero]

They did not clone the old sensors. They simply woke up the new ones. I know they are 433 MHz and transmitting so they should be able to be "learned". Do all sensors require a magnet to be "woken up" during the learn process?

[osuaero]

Thanks for the chat Steve. I appreciate the time. Not conceding yet...really don't want to pull the tires off.

[Steve-Indy]

I sent Dan's number to you just now.

[Steve M]

I have no quick answer to the problem as I just ran into this issue 3 weeks ago....cloned Schrader sensors on a 2010, already installed, with no ability to program them to TPS module using my magnet and DRB III.

Cloned sensors, if done properly, should not require any interface with the TPMS module.

Question: how does the DRB obtain the new sensor ID information? Does it ping each individually (as in, you walk around the car with it grabbing each one in turn) and then use that to program the TPMS module? Will it allow you to manually input new IDs?

I see a couple ways forward to fix this, but both are going to require some legwork on the part of the OP.

1. Assuming the new TPMS sensors are pre-programmed with 4 unique IDs (they either have to come this way already, or they have to do it with their scan tool), you need to figure out what those IDs are. The original shop should be able to get you this info...if it isn't written down in their records, make them get it for you. It should be as simple as them taking their scan tool and walking around to each corner of the car and pinging each sensor. Once you have that, you would possibly be able to reprogram the TPMS module with a DRB III, assuming it will let you input the codes manually. It seems like they can't get the sensors to report out to the DRB III for some reason, but I don't know how that system works.

2. You could also get the dealer to read out the codes stored in the TPMS module in your car with the DRB III. Write those down, and take it with you to the shop. If the sensors are re-programmable (a lot of them are these days), have them input the right codes. Most programmable sensors will only accept reprogramming when they are at or near ambient air pressure, so you'll need to pull the wheel (or at least get the weight off of it), remove the valve stem core to let the air out, and then it should let you overwrite them with the correct ID info using their scanner. Again, this will only work if they used a programmable sensor - if they are fixed, you are back to #1.

The shop really owes you an explanation as to what exactly they did. Questions to ask:

1. Were these pre-programmed sensors? If so, where's the ID info?
2. If they weren't pre-programmed sensors, how did they program them? Where is that ID info?
3. If they were blank (i.e. not pre-programmed) sensors, why in the f*** did they not just clone the old ones? It literally takes a couple of minutes, and could have saved you this headache. Even the low-end TPMS scan tools support this functionality.

For folks that find this thread years down the road, please heed this important note: KEEP YOUR OLD TPMS SENSORS UNTIL YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY SURE THE NEW ONES ARE WORKING PROPERLY. As I stated above, the codes/IDs are literally written on them, and can really help you come up with a solution. TPMS systems are relatively simple...they only operate on one of two frequencies. Because of that, they require unique codes so your car doesn't start trying to read the mail of the one next to you that is likely operating on the same frequency. If even one of those numbers is off, you'll get a warning light, so a little diligence is required to make sure everything lines up.

[Old School]

On my Gen3, you use the DRB3 to put the system in learn mode. The the DRB prompts you to put the magnet around each valve stem. The magnet wakes up that sensor and it transmits its ID, the TPMS module receives this message and stores the ID.

The sensors are transmit only, they can't receive a signal from the system so they can't be "pinged". They only transmitted when the wheel is turning or with the magnet, that's how their batteries last 10 years.

[Steve M]

The sensors are transmit only, they can't receive a signal from the system so they can't be "pinged". They only transmitted when the wheel is turning or with the magnet, that's how their batteries last 10 years.

They can be pinged, you just have to have the right scan tool to do it. That's how I cloned the sensors on my truck and Viper without ever having to plug anything into the OBD-II port. The brand of the sensor doesn't matter either. My truck's sensors read out immediately - it took about 10-15 seconds each for the Viper sensors to respond (I have a feeling that was due to the scanner having to step through the different freqs. and modulation schemes to get a response), no magnet required.

When pinged, the sensors report out:

1. Their unique ID
2. Current tire pressure
3. Temperature (only if reported - the Viper sensors did not report this)

The scanner will also tell you what frequency it used to communicate with the sensors.

[osuaero]

Ok. Back from the friendly tire shop.

They installed the Schrader EZ Sensor. Although this sensor allows cloning they gave the new sensors new ID's because "that's what they always do". I should have been more informed going into this and would have saved myself a ton of time...

Current sensor IDs are as follows:

729670
729667
729669
729668

Do these make sense?

Two questions now...

1. Will the DRB III allow sensor codes to be input manually?
2. Is it possible to get the stored codes out of the car with a DRB III? Tire shop can change the sensor IDs to match as suggested by Steve M.

And to reiterate Steve....KEEP YOUR OLD SENSORS!!!!

[Steve M]

Current sensor IDs are as follows:

729670
729667
729669
729668

Do these make sense?

Those numbers make sense...they are unique, which is what you want.

They need to answer one more question: are those numbers they gave you in hex (base 16) or base 10?

Given that they are 6 digits in length, I'd guess they are hex. On my original sensors, the codes written on the sensors themselves were 8 digits in length. The reason I ask is because I don't know how the DRB III will report out the existing codes in your car's TPMS module. If they are 8-digits in length, they are probably base 10.

Either way, the next step is back to someone with a DRB III.

If they can manually input those codes into your car's TPMS module with the DRB III, they'll need to input the following base 10 numbers (assuming it is programmed in base 10):

729670 (hex) = 07509616 (base 10)
729667 (hex) = 07509607 (base 10)
729669 (hex) = 07509609 (base 10)
729668 (hex) = 07509608 (base 10)

Obviously (or maybe not), the first zero really doesn't matter, but if the system allows it, I'd put it in anyway.

If they can't manually input those codes, see if you can get them to read out the stored codes in the TPMS module.

If you can get those, write them down, and take them back to the tire shop. Again, you need to know whether or not the numbers need to be in base 10 or hex to program their sensors. I'd assume hex, so you'll likely need to take whatever the DRB III tells you and convert it from base 10 into hex. That's very easy to do: https://www.rapidtables.com/convert/...al-to-hex.html

They'll also need to make sure it is transmitting on 433 MHz. If I'm not mistaken, the Schrader EZ Sensor is one of the newer breed of "one sensor to rule them all" that can be programmed to operate on either 315 or 433 MHz, so it can be used across pretty much all years/makes/models of cars, if it is programmed correctly.

[Old School]

They can be pinged, you just have to have the right scan tool to do it. That's how I cloned the sensors on my truck and Viper without ever having to plug anything into the OBD-II port. The brand of the sensor doesn't matter either. My truck's sensors read out immediately - it took about 10-15 seconds each for the Viper sensors to respond (I have a feeling that was due to the scanner having to step through the different freqs. and modulation schemes to get a response), no magnet required.

When pinged, the sensors report out:

1. Their unique ID
2. Current tire pressure
3. Temperature (only if reported - the Viper sensors did not report this)

The scanner will also tell you what frequency it used to communicate with the sensors.

My Gen3 has "low line" sensors that require a magnet to activate, Chrysler switched to to "high line" sensors, that can be activated with a scan tool later.

[Old School]

Ok. Back from the friendly tire shop.

They installed the Schrader EZ Sensor. Although this sensor allows cloning they gave the new sensors new ID's because "that's what they always do". I should have been more informed going into this and would have saved myself a ton of time...

Current sensor IDs are as follows:

729670
729667
729669
729668

Do these make sense?

Two questions now...

1. Will the DRB III allow sensor codes to be input manually?
2. Is it possible to get the stored codes out of the car with a DRB III? Tire shop can change the sensor IDs to match as suggested by Steve M.

And to reiterate Steve....KEEP YOUR OLD SENSORS!!!!

When using a DRB you don't need to know the sensor ID numbers, it reads each one and programs itself. It does show you the sensor ID's as it reads them.

[Steve M]

My Gen3 has "low line" sensors that require a magnet to activate, Chrysler switched to to "high line" sensors, that can be activated with a scan tool later.

Ah...that makes more sense now. Thanks for the clarification...I stand corrected.

Going back to asking the tire shop whether or not those numbers are in hex, if they look at you like this:



Just ask them whether or not any of their codes sometimes include the letters A-F. I would hope they could answer that question, but you never know. I realize that very few people ever deal with hex...I don't, but I'm glad I was at least paying attention at some point during my education when someone discussed it.

[Steve M]

When using a DRB you don't need to know the sensor ID numbers, it reads each one and programs itself. It does show you the sensor ID's as it reads them.

...except they apparently already tried that, and failed. He needs the existing codes out of the TPMS module so he can make clones out of what he's currently got.

[Old School]

...except they apparently already tried that, and failed. He needs the existing codes out of the TPMS module so he can make clones out of what he's currently got.

I think he needs to find a different dealer, because I personally did it this way....

But maybe, if you don't have the activating magnet, you can enter them manually.

Also, I much prefer the method Chrysler went to for their passenger cars around 2006, you don't do anything. After driving a few miles the system realizes some ID(s) are gone and there are some new ones, and just starts using them.

[Steve-Indy]

Steve M, you are way over my head.

Since I have received a couple of calls on this issue today alone, it is clear to me that most tire shops have no clue about the Gen III and IV TPS and TPM.

In my series of ONE personal encounter with these EZ sensors, all of my efforts only netted a programming failure 3 weeks ago on a 2010 Viper. In this case, a savvy owner programmed his own EZ programmable "universal" sensors. Unfortunately, the DRB III read nothing. Importantly, it would not let me enter any ID's manually.

Sadly, as the legacy techs move on, many dealerships are left with experience and knowledge gaps.
Also, considering the age and rough handling that many DRB III 's have seen, I am not sure just how many functioning units are out there.
There has been NO TECH SUPPORT for these tools for several years now.

One final note to owners: The 2013-2017 Viper OEM TP Sensors DO NOT WORK on 2003-6 or on 2008-10 Vipers.

[osuaero]

Thanks for all of the info.

Anyone know if the Schrader EZ Sensors should be hit with a magnet or tpms tool during the relearn?

I feel like this would be much easier if I didn't have to rely on a dealer for access to a DRB III.