The 'Ring

[Viper Girl]

Just curious... Was it track officials that gave them the 3rd day time? or Ron Howard who was there filming Rush?

[Bill Pemberton]

Not sure I understand your rationale Flatout, because even though we both have ACRs you seem to be negating that the TA outran the ACR at Laguna Seca, and there are some very high speed corners there, off camber and demanding. The TA suspension, the greater top speed, the brakes , weight, all factor in, and frankly the speed was a major issue as we all know in returning to the Ring. Love my ACR, but have to
believe the electronic suspension changes and brakes make a big difference, and the fact that it went faster on what many of us consider a mid level DOT competition tire ( Pirelli Corsa ) , means with a set of Trofeos on, it would not surprise me in the least to see a TA take a quicker time. The electronic suspension, likely, could respond quicker to the compression and rolling course faster than the KWs --- frankly a good system but becoming dated. Have to agree with Black and Blue and others, no offense, but a TA with Trofeos should be a champ ---- let's say a few in the know are thinking up to 5 mph faster in some straights and leave it at that.

Supposedly Ron Howard gave them some of his allotted time to make the run, Viper Girl.

[rw99]

Could SRT spec new rubber, ditch a little weight, reprogram the suspension, do big active aero, and offer CCBs for around $150k? There's your Gen V ACR.

I'd bet that a driver making a 10/10ths run at the ring would really, REALLY prefer to keep all the downforce of the Gen IV ACR large aero... wouldn't it be fantastic to make it an active system, and have the best of both worlds?

[FLATOUT]

I could see there being a trade off in the straights, but I also see a tradeoff in the high speed corners in the ACR's favor. How much did it beat the ACR by again at Leguna .3? And neither had a factory driver at the wheel so who knows how much of a difference that might make in either cars favor. It will need to be on a better tire, that it was at Leguna and I personally believe that the aero does make enough difference at Nurburg that it's not an easy call. I think the ACR stays ahead.

SRT Viper TA
1:33.62 Randy Probst

Dodge Viper SRT-10 ACR
1:33.92 Chris Winkler

Not sure I understand your rationale Flatout, because even though we both have ACRs you seem to be negating that the TA outran the ACR at Laguna Seca, and there are some very high speed corners there, off camber and demanding. The TA suspension, the greater top speed, the brakes , weight, all factor in, and frankly the speed was a major issue as we all know in returning to the Ring. Love my ACR, but have to
believe the electronic suspension changes and brakes make a big difference, and the fact that it went faster on what many of us consider a mid level DOT competition tire ( Pirelli Corsa ) , means with a set of Trofeos on, it would not surprise me in the least to see a TA take a quicker time. The electronic suspension, likely, could respond quicker to the compression and rolling course faster than the KWs --- frankly a good system but becoming dated. Have to agree with Black and Blue and others, no offense, but a TA with Trofeos should be a champ ---- let's say a few in the know are thinking up to 5 mph faster in some straights and leave it at that.

Supposedly Ron Howard gave them some of his allotted time to make the run, Viper Girl.

[FLATOUT]

Yes that would be incredible, that being said there's a reason these cars cost as little as they do for the performance they generate. I would love active aero, but would hate to see a 150k-200K ACR. To me that brings a whole lot more options on the buy side into the equation, and suddenly a ring time means a little less to me.

Could SRT spec new rubber, ditch a little weight, reprogram the suspension, do big active aero, and offer CCBs for around $150k? There's your Gen V ACR.

I'd bet that a driver making a 10/10ths run at the ring would really, REALLY prefer to keep all the downforce of the Gen IV ACR large aero... wouldn't it be fantastic to make it an active system, and have the best of both worlds?

[Bill Pemberton]

Having been around Nurburgring many years ago, many are not really aware how much high speed areas there are, but the simple answer is the TA may have barely beat the ACR at Laguna Seca, but I pretty much would conservatively figure on a 1-2 second gap on tires alone. The Corsa is a good intermediate DOT, but it is by no means comparible to a Pilot Sport Cup, Hoosier R6, or a Trofeo. That is where the difference is, and lastly, one can't take anything away from Chris Winkler ( he is more than a test Driver , he is a National Champion SCCA shoe and those that know him would put him right alongside many Pros).

Understand your thought process, but I don't think many really understand the advances and work done on the TA, as frankly comparing two cars it has better top end, better weight, better brakes, better suspension, better hp , and the ACR has better Aero and tires -- kind of a 5 to 2 analogy, but though not as outrageous , I think we as owners fail to see all the work that did go into the TA ( and it was in production prior to the Corvette/Viper test ) as SRT knew there needed to be an alternative for the track afficianados before an ACR could be approved ----- amazing what was done within and once out for a bit and folks have had time to tune, switch rubber, etc. I do believe we are going to find it continues the track prowess started by the second Gen ACR.

Number one upgrade given by many track rats , over the years, to go faster , is simply better rubber.

[FLATOUT]

Well hopefully we'll see with a 5 to 2 better analogy one would think it would have gone alot quick around Leguna and not just .3 faster. But, that being said I understand the importance of the right tire and the Cup is that good. If the new tire isn't up to snuff than it will be hampered due to grip.

I disagree and still think the 10 ACR will prove to be faster around the Ring than the current TA offering on the tires it came with. If a new TA comes out with better rubber I might change my mind, but even on the Cups I think it would have it's hands full doe to the lack of Aero. If down force didn't matter there why didn't they just run a coupe with a Cup tire edition similar to what Chevy did with the Z06's and ZR1's?

Hopefully we'll get to see it run the Ring, and win I would love a reason to get into one I have eyed a few at Tomball and my interest is peaked but I am looking for a larger performance differential before I decide to move on.

Having been around Nurburgring many years ago, many are not really aware how much high speed areas there are, but the simple answer is the TA may have barely beat the ACR at Laguna Seca, but I pretty much would conservatively figure on a 1-2 second gap on tires alone. The Corsa is a good intermediate DOT, but it is by no means comparible to a Pilot Sport Cup, Hoosier R6, or a Trofeo. That is where the difference is, and lastly, one can't take anything away from Chris Winkler ( he is more than a test Driver , he is a National Champion SCCA shoe and those that know him would put him right alongside many Pros).

Understand your thought process, but I don't think many really understand the advances and work done on the TA, as frankly comparing two cars it has better top end, better weight, better brakes, better suspension, better hp , and the ACR has better Aero and tires -- kind of a 5 to 2 analogy, but though not as outrageous , I think we as owners fail to see all the work that did go into the TA ( and it was in production prior to the Corvette/Viper test ) as SRT knew there needed to be an alternative for the track afficianados before an ACR could be approved ----- amazing what was done within and once out for a bit and folks have had time to tune, switch rubber, etc. I do believe we are going to find it continues the track prowess started by the second Gen ACR.

Number one upgrade given by many track rats , over the years, to go faster , is simply better rubber.

[TrackAire]

What is the top speed of the Gen V in 5th gear?

I remember the SRT engineer Matt (long last name) explained that the 2008 attempt had terrible head winds so the car stayed in 4th gear on the straights and bounced off the rev limiter due to the idiotic 5th gear ratio not being able to pull the car on the long straight.

The 2010 car still had some time left in it in my opinion....they were running under adverse conditions, ran out of time, broke one ACR (don't know what failed but you can see it parked along the track during the record attempt) and were lucky to have Ron Howard's production company allow SRT an extra morning of driving to get the record. If it wasn't for them, it would have been a failed attempt.

With the 3.55's in the Gen V and close ratio trans, that might allow a bit of time savings since the car will be in its horsepower sweet spot more often for longer times. Maybe add a little more aggressive front spoiler/splitter, some front canards, a Gurney flap to the rear spoiler, sticky tires and 250 rpm more to the computer and I think the Gen V would definitely beat the 2010 record. But, the track gods have to give us great weather, no head winds, some practice time, etc. Anything under 7 minutes would be epic considering the cost of the Gen V platform.

If there is such a thing as a Ring God, he obviously must like Vipers because we've achieved the record every time we've tried!!

Cheers,
George

[Bill Pemberton]

Respect your opinion, yet do believe the TA will be impressing folks quite a distance into the future, much the same way the ACR has. Have a good day.

[ViperSmith]

I'd be more curious to see what the ACR does at Laguna on slicks compared to how the TA ran with slicks.

I think with that we get to see more comparable numbers to judge the two.

[FLATOUT]

I'd be more curious to see what the ACR does at Laguna on slicks compared to how the TA ran with slicks.

I think with that we get to see more comparable numbers to judge the two.

That would be great, same tire, same day, same driver. Too bad that will never happen

[Brian E]

Just for a quick reference on how much off a difference tires can make, check out the June 2013 MotorTrend Article on the TA page 52, titled just for fun. Tire Rack supplied the TA with a set of shaved and heat cylced slicks. Randy P posted a 1:30.78 with the slicks versus a 1:33.62 with the Corsa's.

[FLATOUT]

Agree you throw slicks on any car and it will cut a lot of time. We were mostly discussing how these cars are coming from the factory and how they would run the ring. If SRT puts a crap tire on it, well, that sucks. If we're talking about modding cars then we can talk about ACR's with mods. I mean if the gen IV ACR had 3.55's then it could run XXX, IF the TA had this tire or this aero it would run XXX.

It is what it is, a Gen V will beat the 2010's ring time I just don't know if it will be a between model like a TA or the full on ACR. I suspect the later.

Just for a quick reference on how much off a difference tires can make, check out the June 2013 MotorTrend Article on the TA page 52, titled just for fun. Tire Rack supplied the TA with a set of shaved and heat cylced slicks. Randy P posted a 1:30.78 with the slicks versus a 1:33.62 with the Corsa's.

[Newport Viper]

If there is such a thing as a Ring God, he obviously must like Vipers because we've achieved the record every time we've tried!!

Cheers,
George

Amen!!!!!

[Brian E]

Agree you throw slicks on any car and it will cut a lot of time. We were mostly discussing how these cars are coming from the factory and how they would run the ring. If SRT puts a crap tire on it, well, that sucks. If we're talking about modding cars then we can talk about ACR's with mods. I mean if the gen IV ACR had 3.55's then it could run XXX, IF the TA had this tire or this aero it would run XXX.

It is what it is, a Gen V will beat the 2010's ring time I just don't know if it will be a between model like a TA or the full on ACR. I suspect the later.

I agree, my point was that SRT left a substantial amount on the table by only offering the Corsa on the TA. If they could have offered a hardcore option for the TA that included the PS Cup or an equivalent, their track times would be reduced substantially. To be completely honest, I will never drive my TA at ten/tenths and the Corsa is a great compromise for me. I don't have that kind of skill, but for marketing reasons and the success of the brand, it would have been nice to have that option.

[FLATOUT]

I would love to see what the TA would do on a cup.

I agree, my point was that SRT left a substantial amount on the table by only offering the Corsa on the TA. If they could have offered a hardcore option for the TA that included the PS Cup or an equivalent, their track times would be reduced substantially. To be completely honest, I will never drive my TA at ten/tenths and the Corsa is a great compromise for me. I don't have that kind of skill, but for marketing reasons and the success of the brand, it would have been nice to have that option.

[Shooter]

Having been around Nurburgring many years ago, many are not really aware how much high speed areas there are, but the simple answer is the TA may have barely beat the ACR at Laguna Seca, but I pretty much would conservatively figure on a 1-2 second gap on tires alone. The Corsa is a good intermediate DOT, but it is by no means comparible to a Pilot Sport Cup, Hoosier R6, or a Trofeo. That is where the difference is, and lastly, one can't take anything away from Chris Winkler ( he is more than a test Driver , he is a National Champion SCCA shoe and those that know him would put him right alongside many Pros).

Understand your thought process, but I don't think many really understand the advances and work done on the TA, as frankly comparing two cars it has better top end, better weight, better brakes, better suspension, better hp , and the ACR has better Aero and tires -- kind of a 5 to 2 analogy, but though not as outrageous , I think we as owners fail to see all the work that did go into the TA ( and it was in production prior to the Corvette/Viper test ) as SRT knew there needed to be an alternative for the track afficianados before an ACR could be approved ----- amazing what was done within and once out for a bit and folks have had time to tune, switch rubber, etc. I do believe we are going to find it continues the track prowess started by the second Gen ACR.

Number one upgrade given by many track rats , over the years, to go faster , is simply better rubber.

The TA was only 0.008 seconds faster then the ZR1. The ZR1 with cups (better tires then the TA comes with) only managed a 7:19 on the ring...7 seconds SLOWER then the 2010 ACR. The ZR1 has better gearing then the ACR , crushed it on the straights in top end........ and was still way slower. Try some facts before you pontificate will ya. Don't you have a mini van to sell or something?

[ViperSmith]

The TA was only 0.008 seconds faster then the ZR1. The ZR1 with cups (better tires then the TA comes with) only managed a 7:19 on the ring...7 seconds SLOWER then the 2010 ACR. The ZR1 has better gearing then the ACR , crushed it on the straights in top end........ and was still way slower. Try some facts before you pontificate will ya. Don't you have a mini van to sell or something?

lol. It took Chevy 5 years to set that record with the ZR1 and it took Ralph a month to beat it.

You guys give the car zero credit.

[ACRucrazy]

The TA was only 0.008 seconds faster then the ZR1. The ZR1 with cups (better tires then the TA comes with) only managed a 7:19 on the ring...7 seconds SLOWER then the 2010 ACR. The ZR1 has better gearing then the ACR , crushed it on the straights in top end........ and was still way slower. Try some facts before you pontificate will ya. Don't you have a mini van to sell or something?

Heat soak after a few mins couldnt have helped.

[ViperSmith]

For the record, I don't think the TA can best the ACR at the 'Ring

Shorter tracks I think it will, but not longer tracks.

[IndyRon]

Having been around Nurburgring many years ago, many are not really aware how much high speed areas there are, but the simple answer is the TA may have barely beat the ACR at Laguna Seca, but I pretty much would conservatively figure on a 1-2 second gap on tires alone. The Corsa is a good intermediate DOT, but it is by no means comparible to a Pilot Sport Cup, Hoosier R6, or a Trofeo. That is where the difference is, and lastly, one can't take anything away from Chris Winkler ( he is more than a test Driver , he is a National Champion SCCA shoe and those that know him would put him right alongside many Pros).

Understand your thought process, but I don't think many really understand the advances and work done on the TA, as frankly comparing two cars it has better top end, better weight, better brakes, better suspension, better hp , and the ACR has better Aero and tires -- kind of a 5 to 2 analogy, but though not as outrageous , I think we as owners fail to see all the work that did go into the TA ( and it was in production prior to the Corvette/Viper test ) as SRT knew there needed to be an alternative for the track afficianados before an ACR could be approved ----- amazing what was done within and once out for a bit and folks have had time to tune, switch rubber, etc. I do believe we are going to find it continues the track prowess started by the second Gen ACR.

Number one upgrade given by many track rats , over the years, to go faster , is simply better rubber.

You use weight as one of your arguments. From published numbers, weight of 2010 ACR 3408lbs, 2014 SRT Viper 3354lbs. So 50lbs or so...I realize the TA has 2 piece rotors, but it also has extra splitters and spoilers that add some of that back. There isn't a significant weight difference, like 200-300lbs or more.

[Bill Pemberton]

IndyRon,

Oh, I agree, weight is minor, but it is just a small part of the total issue. This is a interesting topic and frankly I got into it as I brought up some of the same exact thoughts many of you have with some SRT friends months back. Most of the printed thoughts here are not mine, and I tried to be somewhat general , but have become pretty convinced that we have not heard or seen the whole impact of the TA. Most of the thoughts are solid , from everyone, though we all know that the one thing that can vary is a track time , one day to the next ( due to conditions). I really like the idea of both cars ( stock ) running on the same track, same day, same driver, same tires, as it would be interesting for all of us. Needless to say I seriously doubt a TA could keep up with my ACR or Flatout's as they have been nicely massaged, but we are all simply expressing our views , or in my situation, discreetly trying to drop in a few of others.

PS - thanks Shooter, I actually am trying to sell a VOA President a Town and Country right now, so will get back to it.

[FLATOUT]

All makes sense except for one thing, same tire. If the TA doesn't come with Cups but adds them, it's not a factory stock time. When it runs the ring it will be on whatever tire it comes from SRT with and that's what we are discussing.

Modding cars is a different story but when looking at how the cars will be when they hit the ring I am only interested in what tire the factory will put them on. We all know how badly people want to discredit what the Vipers do at the ring because it justifys their GT3 Porsche, F 458, ZR1, Z06, Lambo purchase. If a car hits the ring on a non factory tire it's dismissed, or looked at as any other modded car time.

IndyRon,

Oh, I agree, weight is minor, but it is just a small part of the total issue. This is a interesting topic and frankly I got into it as I brought up some of the same exact thoughts many of you have with some SRT friends months back. Most of the printed thoughts here are not mine, and I tried to be somewhat general , but have become pretty convinced that we have not heard or seen the whole impact of the TA. Most of the thoughts are solid , from everyone, though we all know that the one thing that can vary is a track time , one day to the next ( due to conditions). I really like the idea of both cars ( stock ) running on the same track, same day, same driver, same tires, as it would be interesting for all of us. Needless to say I seriously doubt a TA could keep up with my ACR or Flatout's as they have been nicely massaged, but we are all simply expressing our views , or in my situation, discreetly trying to drop in a few of others.

PS - thanks Shooter, I actually am trying to sell a VOA President a Town and Country right now, so will get back to it.

[ViperSmith]

Which is why I don't see a ring run until they get a better tire on it.

[Whitemamba]

It would be nice if SRT offered the Trofeo's in an optional package. Based on how the Trofeo's grip on the new Z28, they should provide the grip that the SRT needs.

http://www.autoblog.com/2014/03/13/c...m-fixed-video/

So, offer an additional track pack option and offer the Trofeos, 610 break fluid, factory equipment deletions, etc., and now you have managed to shave off more time with a factory optioned car.