Barrett jackson Predictions

[Viperenvy]

Sheesh - I know the almost 24 months of figuring out the GT2's creation in 1998. Luckily there were just (2) special edition Gen II that were numbered, but only (1) built VIN sequential. A lot of work digging, but the Gen V story needs to be unpacked with a couple of cases of Viper Team Jack..........

[ACRSNK]

To me the question of the stickers is silly. I guess I understand that people want to know all of the details on the cars but still. The stickers came from the factory with the car regardless of whether the factory pre-installed them or the dealer did. Most people are missing the point that Woodhouse had to jump through hoops to get these cars made. Remember the GTC program was to create unique cars not 10 of the exact same car. Bill had to get the factory to authorize 10 duplicate GTC cars spec'd with the TA Orange paint (which was then restricted to these cars), the TA interior with orange stitching, and yes steel brakes. The steel brakes might not be for everyone but many of us that track our cars prefer them because they are cost effective. He could have ordered them with CCBs and buyers could have tried to find the parts to convert them to steel but then the cars would have been more expensive. The parts for the conversion to steel probably weren't even available yet from people like Racing Brakes.

In fact I did not originally upgrade my 2015 TA 2.0 to a 2016 ACR because I could not use the CCBs. With the CCBs I had to run 19" wheels in front and there were no "legal" tires that I could buy from Tirerack for the One Lap of America. That is the event I have run the car in for 3 years (and other Vipers for years before). I was not aware that I could get steel brakes until Bill mentioned it with the ACR/TA. In fact an SRT engineer friend who has run One Lap several times for Chrysler told me to avoid the CCBs for One Lap and heavy track use.

Regardless of who installed a sticker on a car (by the way we are talking about a sticker here), the dash plaque clearly spells out what the car is and that was for sure installed at the factory. It is also not unusual for parts to be delivered with the car for the dealer to install. Think radio antennas and hub caps in the old days and think ACR-E splitter and supports for our cars. No one would say that an ACR-E with the splitter installed is not a real ACR because the owner or dealer installed the splitter extension which the factory provided, would they? Wasn't there even previous special edition Vipers (maybe the Pace Car versions in the 90s) that had stickers delivered to the dealer with the car in case the owner did not want to put them on? Not sure about this but I seem to remember something like it.

So bottom line for me is I don't get why some people get so hung up on the sticker. Hell I've actually changed my ACR sticker because I didn't like the red in it on an orange car. The OEM manufacturer of the sticker who a friend put me in contact with made special ACR stickers for me that cut the red out. That company made the stickers including "Stryker" for the front of the ACR as well as the stripes for Challengers and other cars. Is my car no longer an ACR or an ACR/TA because I took off a factory applied sticker and put on a non-standard sticker? Well if it isn't real anymore it doesn't matter as I plan to drive it and have fun especially now that I upgraded the factory engine to a non-factory 9 liter extreme.

To each their own but I can tell you that Bill Pemberton worked his butt of getting these cars approved and it must be discouraging for him to hear people say "well the car isn't real because we don't know who put the sticker on". Truth is that several FCA execs contacted Bill and told him they thought the car was special, I think one even wanted to get one.

Was just asking because there was never a straight answer regarding the same. The ACR/TA is one of the baddest ACR's made hands down. Just wondering why some gaps can't be filled in on the details. Nothing to get defensive about as everyone is aware as to what the car is and what it took to get it done. Pretty sure everyone on here would love to have one. I for one think the mystique surrounding this car will only add to it's future value. I should have bought the one Bill offered me for sticker at $129,785.00. That was a bargain if I ever saw one and I paid WAAAAAY more for my GTS-R.

[Voice of Reason]

Without commenting on Stickergate I did want to say that the dash plaque saying ACR/TA doesnt mean anything. Those plaques were free form for 1 of 1 cars, someone could have made theirs say Corvette C8 but that wouldnt change what it was.

[Policy Limits]

The real SE cars got a 25th Anniversary badge. All 6 of them.

[Blue T/A 2.0]

I am curious as to what the window sticker said, not that it really means anything at this point. I would have liked to have had one, but as soon as I heard of it, they were sold out when I made the call. I do think they are very special cars.

[ACRSNK]

It is a GTC window sticker like all the 1of1 ACRs The only mention of TA on the window sticker is the TA interior

[Policy Limits]

Because contrived. The Authentic Manufacturer Special Edition cars with the 25th Anniversary Dash Plaque also spell out the years of the snake. "1992......2017." 1/4 Century of Venom!

Pretty Epic!

[Scott_in_fl]

I admit that the dash plaque is very cool, but all 2017's are anniversary cars.

The only issue I have with the SE cars, and it really is the only one, is that they just made too many final year SE's. So many that the entire year's production is, by default, just as special and just as limited -- some more so.

When we think about collector values of SE cars, we are recalling other makes whereby the manufacturer made an incredibly small percentage of cars as an SE. We're talking like 1% of production. With 700 or so final year ACR-E's, that would have been 7-10 cars.

Had that been the case, or had they done as many as 20-30 cars, then you'd really have a strong argument for values far exceeding non-SE's. But above that, I think you lose the "special" and "limited" aspect of the car. With approx. 200 SE cars for 2017 out of 700 total, I just don't see it. It was the reason I passed on SE myself.

[Policy Limits]

Having #6 of 11 isn't so bad, but I hear ya. The point of the 25th Anniversary plaque wasn't to suggest that the other 2017 models weren't 1/4 century out because they were. It was just to illustrate how the ones with the plaque are the official special Edition cars from the Manufacturer.

No one is getting rich on a flip that even doubles down the line. Taxes, insurance and maintenance, storage etc will likely negate any gain. Just ask the FGT guys. Guess it's just refreshing to not have depreciation, for a change.

[ViperJon]

In what world is a run of only 200 cars of five different colors and styles numbered and designated as final editions saturating the market.
Talk about a desperate reach that nobody here is buying....Imagine that....almost four per state!

[ACRSNK]

The SE cars are also some of the most sought after Vipers consistently holding much higher values than the rest. Kind of like the Orange TA's. Doesn't matter that they made nearly three times more orange TA's than white, or black, the orange TA will always command a premium over the other colors. They made 100 Gen V GTSR's, but if hundreds of thousands of people want a GTSR and nobody wants the only hot pink Viper made, the fact that there are a hundred times more of something that nobody wants means nothing.

[ViperSRT]

I think we need a new site or forum for the my car is better than your car crowd. 90+% of the people I meet can’t tell one Viper from another, let alone if a dash plaque is special. And all because of the paint!

[Bryan Savage]

I also suggest a Kickstarter for Bill Pemberton. You owe him a buck for every question or reply about the TA-ACR decals. lol

[Policy Limits]

Yeah I don't think there's "too many" SE cars. Had to go out with a bang. Especially since the car went out on top with a 7:01 ring time. Every Viper is hand built and is Special, we all know that. However numbered SE just have that extra quality to them. Amazing to consider that the plant produced in a quarter of a century the same quantity of units that other factories put out in a single year. Honestly I've only seen a handful of snakes from all generations out in the wild in my entire life.

[Scott_in_fl]

There are too many SE cars, that is a fact. It does not mean they are not terrific. They are. All of them are. Why? Because (a) a Gen V ACR-E is awesome no matter what color it is painted; (b) FCA did a great job selecting some nice combos for the SE's that make them waaay nicer looking than most of the quick order cars (but for maybe the GTSR blue w/ white stripes, and the silver tri-color which became the poster car); and (c) as Policy points out, they are designated by the MFG as part of a series, which is always good.

But 200 is just too many, given the overall production volume of 700 identically performing, and very similarly optioned cars (some of which are far better optioned).

Had they made all 700 as SE's, do you think there would be a "collector" premium? If your answer is no, then your reasoning must be that there is nothing special about an SE car when there are no non-SE cars. In a sense, any non-SE car would be far more limited, rare, and unique. But if none exist, then that does not matter.

If your answer is yes, that all 700 would be considered "collector cars", then your reasoning must be that they are collector cars for some reason other than being a limited subset of a larger whole. You might think all are collectible because all are final year cars that book-end an important chapter in US sportscar history.

By now, you must see where this is going. If you're really arguing that 200/700 or nearly 30% of all cars can sustain collector valuations in the future, you cannot legitimately believe that it is due to their rarity among other 2017 ACR-E's. When you go to sell your SE in the future, there are just too many others that you will theoretically be competing against for a top dollar.

Rather, I believe all of the 2017 cars are most likely to be "collectible". Sure, with all of the custom combinations, and many quick order cars in standard colors, there will be some variation -- and, my guess is that the SE cars will always be at the top of that range. But any value delta will likely be slight, if any, above other desirable cars (stryker cars, the aforementioned GTSR blue w/ white stripes, the top 20% of 1-of-1 cars). Of course, this is only my opinion and, as they say, we all have one.

[ACRSNK]

Do you think they made too many Orange TA's? Will those continue to command a premium over other non orange TA's even though they made 3X as many? If FCA made 1,000 ACR's and 500 were all painted the same color, with the same options and were designated as SE cars and 99% of the consumers wanted only that model even though it was 50% of total production and 1% of the consumers wanted and opted for the "rare" models (non SE cars), which cars do you think would command a higher premium? The "rare" cars, or the non "rare" cars that everyone wanted? Simple math here and it doesn't take a logistical genius to figure this out. Everyone does have opinions and they are entitled to the same, but the masses speak to the value of things. Just because something is rare, doesn't mean that it is valuable. All 30,000 Vipers are rare, but not all are valuable in terms of what certain Gen V's are bringing.

[nitromilt]

I have purchased more than one viper from Bill P every purchase was a great experience. Never once did i give 2 shits if its gonna be a collector car (i think all vipers are) and as long as it had some value when i traded or sold it...im cool with that. My last Viper was the 1:28 for me in my opinion the best looking one ever......and it is unfortunate that i cant drive it due to a medical condition that happened to me just days before it arrived in Blair Ne. So over 3 years later it sits in my man cave with a battery tender on it with a grand total of 229 miles on the odometer. Im prepared to keep it and pass it on to my grand kids who knows what the value will be in 30 years. Still think its best looking one produced.

[Scott_in_fl]

You may be making my point. OTA is a great example. 99 cars vs. 33 for black and white, yet higher priced. Why?

Because people have historically been willing to pay up for the color first and foremost. The Gen V is fantastic in the TA orange. If you had to have that color, and many who purchased it did, then you had to find an OTA. Had that color been available on other Gen V's, like the black or white, prices for OTA would probably be exactly what they are for black or white TA.

And, let's not get carried away. TA prices are better than others, but they're not silly. Black or white TA is marginally better than any other well kept similarly optioned no TA. Maybe 5% better? OTA's are not a moonshot either.

So, carried over to ACR-E, I have consistently said that people will pay up for the color combination first and foremost. Thus far, sales history has proven that out. We have a very active buyer on the forum right now who cannot source a stryker purple for what he believes is a fair price. Why? Because the only one available is selling for more than what he can purchase an SE car. And why is that? Because there are too many SE cars, and apparently not enough stryker purple cars.

Nitromilt, sorry to hear that you cannot enjoy the car. And, yes sir, you have the best of the best imo. Stay well.

[ACRSNK]

I see the point you are trying to make, but we are going to have to agree to disagree. I think some of the 1of1's were really well done, but even so, they are not pulling the same numbers as the SE cars despite being more rare. I agree there aren't enough Stryker Purple cars. Those are beautiful and I'm sure the guy actively looking will find one eventually. The numbers at the place he found one tend to fluctuate when they become aware of a serious buyer for something they have in stock. What is the average sales price for a Stryker Purple car over the last 12 months vs. average selling price for an SE car? Does anyone even have that information? From what I have seen it is pretty close, but the overall performance of the SE sales has been rock solid since 2017. What happened to the Stryker Purple ACR that was for sale in MA for $130K?

[Bruce H.]

You guys need to find an accurate example to base your beliefs and argument...

The SE cars are also some of the most sought after Vipers consistently holding much higher values than the rest. Kind of like the Orange TA's. Doesn't matter that they made nearly three times more orange TA's than white, or black, the orange TA will always command a premium over the other colors.

It's a myth that an orange TA commands a premium over white or black no matter how much some love the color. I've followed TA values pretty closely over the years, helped put numerous TA buys and sellers together, and been privy to actual sale prices not posted on the forum. I have never seen an asking or actual sale price trend to support the belief that there is a premium paid based on that particular color. More orange cars have changed hands, not always for very strong money, and some for ridiculously low dollars. Buyers that want a TA buy the color they like best. Prices for black and white cars have been rather consistently strong, and actually the highest I'm aware of.

Do you think they made too many Orange TA's? Will those continue to command a premium over other non orange TA's even though they made 3X as many?

I think fewer numbers would definitely help their values. If they don't command a premium over other colors now it's unlikely that they suddenly will.

You may be making my point. OTA is a great example. 99 cars vs. 33 for black and white, yet higher priced. Why?

Because people have historically been willing to pay up for the color first and foremost. The Gen V is fantastic in the TA orange. If you had to have that color, and many who purchased it did, then you had to find an OTA.

Again, there's been no evidence of a premium based on color. TA is also stunning in both white and black, with their buyers preferring those colors just as much as the orange buyers preferred orange. I know some who would only consider one of the 3 colors and that was that. People just want what they want...and those who want black or white probably aren't too upset that there were only 33 built for '14.

[Policy Limits]

Five generation 5 Vipers have hammered over 200k so far. The next Ford GT...?......!

[ViperJon]

I think fewer numbers would definitely help their values. If they don't command a premium over other colors now it's unlikely that they suddenly will..

Great anecdotal stories but the truth of the matter is the 92 Orange TA's sold out faster than the 33 Black and whites. I know because I was actively looking for one and had access to the nationwide database of dealers who had them in stock and there were several black and whites available but NO Orange TA's. This is not some story I "heard" its a FACT. I almost settled for a white one but an Orange popped up very slightly used from a member here. Regarding resale values there is no way anyone can make a definitive statement on that. But when 93 sold out faster than 33 that would speak to the popularity and STILL does. Mileage, condition, mods and who's selling them make a huge difference of course.

The Orange TA was the poster car for TA's and the one at the cars shows...seeing it in NY really whet my appetite. Google Viper 2014 Viper TA....enough said what photos come up. The fact is that an orange TA screams Viper TA....white or black could be any Gen V unless you are familiar with the TA differences. There's a reason why when Woodhouse decided to make their ACR/TA they chose TA Orange.

[Policy Limits]

There's a reason why when Woodhouse decided to make their ACR/TA they chose TA Orange.[/QUOTE]

So you opine that the car is not a manufacturer Edition and is instead dealer contrived or nah?

[Scott_in_fl]

As always, it will boil down to supply/demand.

The SE camp believes the demand for SE cars will outstrip the supply of SE cars. The non-SE camp believes the supply will always be too much for the demand.

At BJ 2030, any SE car going across the block will no doubt be announced that it is 1 of 100, or 1 of 28, etc. Without any other information, that sounds amazing. But any savvy bidder thinking of dropping $500k+ on the car will no doubt do some research and see that there are numerous SE editions. Determining which edition is "more SE" than any other will be nearly impossible. To date, there does not seem to be any clear preference given the available sales data.

So now the 2030 BJ bidder realizes there are 200 total SE cars, from several SE editions. So why bid up too high if the next one is likely to become available at a lower price?

And the bidder also likely learns that there were also non-SE cars made in extremely small numbers -- indeed, far less than 100 or even 28 identical cars. For some, there is only 1. And now the buyer is truly confused, just like we are today, and most likely discounts his bidding for an SE car accordingly because the last thing he wants to hear at the local C&C is that the guy that pulled up in the stryker purple with silver stripes car has the only one ever produced. What a kick in the pants!

And that is why I believe SE cars will always do well, and stay at the top of the range but will not substantially distance themselves from the top 20 percent of the 1-of-1's.

[ViperSRT]

Demand when new means nothing about demand years later. The couldn't give away the Hemi package or Charger Daytona's back when they were new. Many examples of this. Never heard how fast they sold out as a precursor to collectability years later. One thing we do know is the number of Gen 5 Vipers that will be very low mileage in 10 or 20 years will be substantial. Meaning supply of collectable examples will not be rare.