Allpar C8 Corvette Debut Causes Renewed Demand for Viper Return

[ViperSmith]

Well, enjoy the car.

[Bruce H.]

I just don't think I could ever buy a Corvette because of the bad experiences friends have had with theirs. They didn't really complain so much about quality control issues like some early Gen V's did, but rather symptoms of lacking engineering, durability standards and stress testing. They built the car to survive normal street use but didn't go the distance to ensure it would survive track use. GM's goals were adequate for the vast majority of their customers but not for the track enthusiasts they marketed to by claiming "it's the most track capable Corvette ever".

You can track any Gen V relentlessly around any road course in the land and just wear out brake pads and tires but you can't go 30 minutes in many C7s. A friend with a '14 C7 Z51 tracked his 5 times and the dealer replaced the exhaust valve 5 times. He overheated the engine and transmission each session and the brake pads wore out in 700 miles. Five years later the '19 C7 Z51 suffer the same problem...5 years and it was never addressed. Inadequate cooling was improved somewhat on latter years but is still an issue for some, and they never offered a solution to earlier year buyers. They told my friend not to buy the Z06 because they knew he'd over heat it also. Sold the car and bought a bullet-proof AMG GTS for the track. Never overheats or breaks.

GM has a long history of putting out cars with problems that they don't correct until a major model revision. The C8 has the same flawed DNA and one can only expect it to have the usual first year quality control issues and low standard of durability when tracked. And it will once again be the buyers that perform the stress testing and discover the issues. GM will sell a ton of them and most buyers will be satisfied, particularly owners of previous generation Vettes I'm guessing.

The C8 looks like a very appealing package, no question about that. GM's marketing dept and the automotive press that work tirelessly to get enthusiasts excited and into the showrooms will claim it's the greatest thing ever, just like they did with the C7, but it will be another case of over-promise and under deliver, just like it was with the C7.

Those who don't track their Gen Vs have no idea how vastly superior these cars have been engineered and built, and for them the C8 may surely please. But for those who do demand more, well, better at least wait a year for the euphoria to pass and for the early C8 buyers to perform the stress testing and start reporting back. And that's also good advice for whatever new model you're considering.

[ForTehNguyen]

price was too good to be true on those higher performing vettes. Works fine when you just putt putt it around to car meets. How blatant crap like that made it through basic testing boggles the mind.

[Bryan Savage]

price was too good to be true on those higher performing vettes. Works fine when you just putt putt it around to car meets. How blatant crap like that made it through basic testing boggles the mind.

During Viper Days 2.0 at VIR a few years back, Skip Thomas was telling a story about... development of the Gen II car (I think). It was bulletproof for the Dodge test drivers, but non-pros were chewing through sets of brakes. They had to redesign some components as with a "worse" driver behind the wheel, they were having problems that "better" drivers wouldn't experience.

Maybe that's part of Corvette's problem. Maybe the car is great if YOU are great, but if you aren't as great, you get overheating issues.

No idea. But just think of the effort involved in building a new car. They have to think of every possible condition a car could face in the wild and account for every one. Miss just one thing and the forums flare up with "It's junk!!!" comments.

I think it's perfectly reasonable to expect the C8 to have some teething issues. What will make the true difference is how Chevrolet and their dealers will handle the complaints.

[viperBase1]

During Viper Days 2.0 at VIR a few years back, Skip Thomas was telling a story about... development of the Gen II car (I think). It was bulletproof for the Dodge test drivers, but non-pros were chewing through sets of brakes. They had to redesign some components as with a "worse" driver behind the wheel, they were having problems that "better" drivers wouldn't experience.

Maybe that's part of Corvette's problem. Maybe the car is great if YOU are great, but if you aren't as great, you get overheating issues.

No idea. But just think of the effort involved in building a new car. They have to think of every possible condition a car could face in the wild and account for every one. Miss just one thing and the forums flare up with "It's junk!!!" comments.

I think it's perfectly reasonable to expect the C8 to have some teething issues. What will make the true difference is how Chevrolet and their dealers will handle the complaints.

Agreed, sounds reasonable.

N' then do your best to market the car accordingly.
The over-hyped message has created a perfect-storm scenario for rebuttal in kind.. with facts. Which will likely be somewhat devastating.

[Voice of Reason]

Chevy has released full pricing for the C8:

https://www.chevrolet.com/content/da...ricing_PDF.pdf

Note that the contents of the Z51 are included in a footnote, for acceleration I see the biggest thing is better tires. Z51 also includes their eLSD, it doesn't say anything about it having a different ratio though. Either way if Chevy's < 3.0 0-60 is to be believed for the Z51 model then a base $59.995 car should be able to hit 0-60 in 3.2-3.4 easily.

[viperBase1]

Chevy has released full pricing for the C8:

https://www.chevrolet.com/content/da...ricing_PDF.pdf

Well theres a bit good news.
The $5K Z51 Package became the Z51 Performance Package.
Up to now the dealers were saying the Z51 Performance Package was going to be more $$ and didn't have a price yet. (was estimated to come in between $8K - $12K).

Either way if Chevy's < 3.0 0-60 is to be believed for the Z51 model then a base $59.995 car should be able to hit 0-60 in 3.2-3.4 easily.

Well at least we got off the story about "0-60 < 30 seconds for < $60K". That's progress!

What makes you say a stock 1LT Stingray will go 3.2 - 3.4 easily?
I think it'll be a 4 sec car on a good day if you're lucky.
Closer to 5.

[Mr. Acoustics]

Well at least we got off the story about "0-60 < 30 seconds for < $60K". That's progress!

What makes you say a stock 1LT Stingray will go 3.2 - 3.4 easily?
I think it'll be a 4 sec car on a good day if you're lucky.
Closer to 5.

I am no Corvette lover, but you have to stupid to think a base car will do 0-60 in barely 5 secs. A 4200lb Challenger Scat Pack, which has very similar power numbers (485hp), and way narrower tires and worse weight balance runs 0-60 in the low 4s. Hell a stock gen 2 Viper with 450hp is magazine tested at 4.1 and that is with a stick and no fancy electronics. The Vette with modern launch control and a fast shifting transmission will definitely be in the 3s no matter what trim level you get.

[viperBase1]

I am no Corvette lover, but you have to stupid to think a base car will do 0-60 in barely 5 secs. A 4200lb Challenger Scat Pack, which has very similar power numbers (485hp), and way narrower tires and worse weight balance runs 0-60 in the low 4s. Hell a stock gen 2 Viper with 450hp is magazine tested at 4.1 and that is with a stick and no fancy electronics. The Vette with modern launch control and a fast shifting transmission will definitely be in the 3s no matter what trim level you get.

I'm not a Corvette hater, but you gotta be nuts to believe all the marketing hype that's come out about the C8.

Why not wait and see what reality brings before making these grandiose statements?
Compare it to whatever "Known Car Stat" you like.. at this point the C8 is still an Unknown.

In my experience "Spec-Sheets" have let people down OVER and Over n' over again.

N' what if... there's a million "what if's" to consider.. like prepping your ass off for that track day and then...!@#$%

Why haven't they let any independent third parties actually test drive the car yet?

It is a GM car.

Hey Pappy,
have there been any words from the guys at Spring Mountain yet?

[Pappy]

Hey Pappy,
have there been any words from the guys at Spring Mountain yet?

Haven't heard anything. Due to commitments to GM I doubt they will say much. It may take a report from someone going through the Dealers Orientation or early classes. We may hear from the magazine jockeys first. It is pretty much confirmed that the C8 that crashed at Yosemite was across the centerline. Either the driver ran out of talent or ........ damn skinny front tires. LOL

Pappy

[Arizona Vipers]

They are putting "slow" tires on the Z51 so don't expect magical lap times until someone slaps some Hoosier's or slicks on one- The website says Z51 cars have "Michelin PS4 Performance 3 Season"

[Arizona Vipers]

I'm not a Corvette hater, but you gotta be nuts to believe all the marketing hype that's come out about the C8.

Why not wait and see what reality brings before making these grandiose statements?
Compare it to whatever "Known Car Stat" you like.. at this point the C8 is still an Unknown.

What "hype"? It's a mid engine 490hp car with a DCT that starts $60K. That's all that's been said. It's about $8K more than a Supra LOL. With or without the $5K Z51 package it will be the fastest $60K-$65K car around a race track in the world. It should smoke the Cayman GT4 for half the price. Pretty cool. What are we debating here? It's reliability? I just traded my 2016 Ram in and it had like 11 open recalls LOL.

[SharpMan]

What "hype"? It's a mid engine 490hp car with a DCT that starts $60K. That's all that's been said. It's about $8K more than a Supra LOL. With or without the $5K Z51 package it will be the fastest $60K-$65K car around a race track in the world. It should smoke the Cayman GT4 for half the price. Pretty cool. What are we debating here? It's reliability? I just traded my 2016 Ram in and it had like 11 open recalls LOL.

THANK YOU!

I ordered one...plan to daily drive it!

[ForTehNguyen]

that options list is a nickel and dime fest. Notice in order to get the full selection of interior colors you have to get the 72k 3LT

[Voice of Reason]

that options list is a nickel and dime fest. Notice in order to get the full selection of interior colors you have to get the 72k 3LT

You havent seen a nickel and dime fest until you price out a Porsche. Ive been pricing the new Cayenne Coupe and its insane the moment you select a single option. The C8 offers more variability than previous Vettes at a modest cost, everything looks in line IMO.

[RedTanRT/10]

^^^^

[SharpMan]

You havent seen a nickel and dime fest until you price out a Porsche. Ive been pricing the new Cayenne Coupe and its insane the moment you select a single option. The C8 offers more variability than previous Vettes at a modest cost, everything looks in line IMO.

No kidding. C8 is virtually free compared to speccing ANY Porsche.

I think I've had 6 911s and they are great to drive but the Porsche tax is real.

[viperBase1]

What "hype"?

Arizona I know you're a SERIOUS track rat, but seriously.. is that really a question?

It's a mid engine 490hp car with a DCT that starts $60K. That's all that's been said. It's about $8K more than a Supra LOL. With or without the $5K Z51 package it will be the fastest $60K-$65K car around a race track in the world.

None of that has been proven yet. A DCT with AFM that's never been proven.

Fingers crossed that doesn't give Tremec/Hoerbiger a black-eye. I sincerely hope it works well, but I'm afraid its not entirely within their control.

It should smoke the Cayman GT4 for half the price. Pretty cool.

I'll believe it when I see it.

What are we debating here? It's reliability? I just traded my 2016 Ram in and it had like 11 open recalls LOL.

My beef is with all the crazy marketing hype, that's all. I can't stand a bullshit marketing campaign.
"Your mileage may vary"... why do we tolerate this shit!

Sorry to hear about your 2016 RAM w/11 open recalls..
but that's the devil ya know.

"What if" by the end of next year the C8 has twice as many recalls?
That's the devil ya don't know.

licPlate_C8AN.jpg

I can't believe the GM marketeers didn't see this one coming. The variations on that theme are going to be endless.

I ordered one...plan to daily drive it!

Good luck with that, I sincerely hope it works out for you.

I heard they will be manufacturing the Z51's first.. n' base Stingrays will be delayed 'till the end of 2020.

C8 is virtually free compared to speccing ANY Porsche.

Arizona, see the instant hype!
Suddenly its "virtually free!".. just add that one to the stack of other comments about how the C8 will kill the market for ALL OTHER CARS.

By this logic, compared to a Bugatti you can make $1.92 Million buying a $80K C8.

[Arizona Vipers]

Arizona I know you're a SERIOUS track rat, but seriously.. is that really a question?


None of that has been proven yet. A DCT with AFM that's never been proven.

Fingers crossed that doesn't give Tremec/Hoerbiger a black-eye. I sincerely hope it works well, but I'm afraid its not entirely within their control.



I'll believe it when I see it.


My beef is with all the crazy marketing hype, that's all. I can't stand a bullshit marketing campaign.
"Your mileage may vary"... why do we tolerate this shit!

Sorry to hear about your 2016 RAM w/11 open recalls..
but that's the devil ya know.

"What if" by the end of next year the C8 has twice as many recalls?
That's the devil ya don't know.

licPlate_C8AN.jpg

I can't believe the GM marketeers didn't see this one coming. The variations on that theme are going to be endless.


Good luck with that, I sincerely hope it works out for you.

I heard they will be manufacturing the Z51's first.. n' base Stingrays will be delayed 'till the end of 2020.


Arizona, see the instant hype!
Suddenly its "virtually free!".. just add that one to the stack of other comments about how the C8 will kill the market for ALL OTHER CARS.

By this logic, compared to a Bugatti you can make $1.92 Million buying a $80K C8.

I don't see any hype, just excitement for having a choice of buying a mid engine V8 car for $60K. I never have, nor never will buy cars based on reliability concerns, I'm always the moron that runs out and buys the newest all new redesign, but have been lucky, I've never have anymore issues on all new models than the old model IMO. Like my 2019 Ram has zero issues while the 2016 was a nightmare. And of course this car will have faster lap times than the Cayman GT4. Even the C7 did.
That being said, I'm not going to buy one, I have no use for it. When the Z06 comes out it will be VERY hard for me to not buy as it would take very little money to make it much faster than even my 9 liter track car. We are talking 900 wheel with a tune and minor mods, not to mention the DCT and rear weight bias. I'm not a brand loyal guy by any means, but a Viper is what I learned on track and it's all I know I'm in love with it. Hopefully I can resist the evil temptations

[Scott_in_fl]

^^^ I think the car is going to be great. The few videos that I've seen online make the car look good in the real world. Colors look to be pretty decent, interior looks clean, engine compartment seems well done, and performance is certainly there. I too would be very interested in a Z06 as a daily. Should be insane if they fit another 200hp+ into the car. And if they go turbos, then forget about it -- the car will be a tuner's wet dream.

[commandomatt]

I'm not a Corvette hater, but you gotta be nuts to believe all the marketing hype that's come out about the C8

You know.....if FCA would have created some hype about the Gen V....maybe the Viper would still be current

Hype is marketing. They are doing a great job at creating excitment about the C8.

[ForTehNguyen]

reading that the magnetic suspension is only available if you get Z51 package, front axle lift system only available on 2LT and 3LT

didnt think you'd get away that easy didnt ya

[SharpMan]

Good luck with that, I sincerely hope it works out for you.

I heard they will be manufacturing the Z51's first.. n' base Stingrays will be delayed 'till the end of 2020.

How can't it work out? Reliability wise? I'm going to keep the Stelvio Quadrifoglio and the C2S. If it's a PITA I'll just sell it.

I also not in a rush and will drive one before I pay for it.

[Tamvette]

price was too good to be true on those higher performing vettes. Works fine when you just putt putt it around to car meets. How blatant crap like that made it through basic testing boggles the mind.

Honestly this is not true, have many friends tracking various Corvettes and I also owned many without major issues. Having said that, I also never owned any car without issues when tracked hard, including Viper.

Latest z06 had the overheating issue which was addressed I believe after 2017. Even if you get an earlier model, you can get the extra cooling from GM and unless you are doing Endurance racing, you should be ok.

Looking forward to seeing affordable mid engine v8s in force at the track in a year or two

[ForTehNguyen]

when you fix the engine overheating, if you have the automatic, that overheats next in the C7Z according to the overheating thread