Allpar C8 Corvette Debut Causes Renewed Demand for Viper Return

[Whitemamba]

Let's also not forget Dodge's timing of the new model release when paired up against economic struggles. The release of the GenIV could not possibly have come at a worse time. Our economy was on its face. Then they release the GenV in 2012 when our economy was still barely crawling out of the trenches. Pair that with the world's worst marketing by Dodge and SHAZAM!... a car that doesn't sell for sh!t.

Build a GenVI, market it and advertise it as creatively and in a bad ass fashion like they do the Hellcat and you have a winner.

Nice post.

[Whitemamba]

Ford has racing heritage and pedigree with their very expensive Ford GT which was key in selling these cars. Dodge had the opportunity to continue to build on their racing heritage, but pulled the plug after winning the IMSA championship with the Gen5 car. I think you have to be racing and winning to be able to sell an American made supercar. Just my 2 cents.

And I agree with the joy of beating the Euro cars in my lowly Dodge.... Plus it looks better. Frankly I don't care if they put Dodge or SRT or FCA on the car as long as it is a VIPER.

Dodge has a great heritage of racing in Lemans with the Oreca Vipers. They dominated the field! Dodge is the performance brand when it comes to SUVs and straight line sedans but pretty much gave up competing in the sports car section and left that to the Italians.

Personally I don't see why they couldn't take one of the Italian engines, Italian frames, and then let Dodge designers design the body. And there you go. No need to pay for a new motor design. Doesn't Maserati basically use Ferrari motors? Shoot, there is a lot of stuff that ha already been engineered by FCA. Dodge could do what Daimler did with the Viper. They basically rebuilt it and sold it.

[EZ 2B Green]

Yes, that would sell. It is much more Aston Martin, which is the way to go, imo. In fact, the Vulcan is the exact layout and looks mega. Aston has been killing it, and I can't imagine why Corvette did not pull some better ideas for the rear of its C8.

But I also agree with a previous post that gussying it up with too much gadgetry would be an anathema to the brand. Make it a TT smaller displacement V10, kinda like the F1 cars and let it rev. The side pipes definitely need to remain. And chasing N'Ring times is a losing proposition. We don't need to design a Senna. Put the emphasis more on the experience -- first and foremost, the look (it needs a knockout shape and candy colors). Then, satisfy the other senses -- the sound (high rpm ceiling) and the feel (manual shift, open air).

Lastly, and my flame suit is on, but I don't think there should be a base model. I think it should be a single model, a true halo for Dodge. 1 or 2 per dealer, preference or right of first refusal to prior Viper owners with no ADM to them, $150k - $200k MSRP, with interior on par with Maserati/Ferrari. Let's not be Corvette, where you will literally see a C8 on every corner. Let's be exclusive, exciting, and daring. FCA knows this formula quite well with their Ferrari brand. It could do wonders for Dodge dealers. If the car needs to be serviced at Maserati or Ferrari stores, then so be it. At $200k per, they can make that happen.

Be careful using Aston Martin as a reference. They are having a very bad year:

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-...l-raises-and-0

[nitromilt]

I personally am an old school school horsepower junkie... I owned the big block chevys and I was quite active racing them until Uncle Sam invited me to this party in Southeast Asia.... back in those days if u had a big block Chevy or if u had the means a hemi in a Charger, cuda and u were on the top of the heap. Now years later my aching old ass still wants the power... rumble .... shake....but equally important I don

[SRT_BluByU]

No italian chassis or engines please.. not in a viper. Viper=USA

[Pappy]

I personally am an old school school horsepower junkie... I owned the big block chevys and I was quite active racing them until Uncle Sam invited me to this party in Southeast Asia.... back in those days if u had a big block Chevy or if u had the means a hemi in a Charger, cuda and u were on the top of the heap. Now years later my aching old ass still wants the power... rumble .... shake....but equally important I don

Love my ACR, but my "backup plan" covers your bases - and it is in a Corvette - and it is mid engine....almost (19 inch drive shaft).

Pappy

56 Corvette BB1.jpg

[commandomatt]

No italian chassis or engines please.. not in a viper. Viper=USA

Well said

[JPL]

No italian chassis or engines please.. not in a viper. Viper=USA

Well said

+1, Unless you want to start spending $$$$ on OEM PLASTIC shifter parts, (like I did):
https://www.ricambiamerica.com/176626-fulcrum.html

[Scott_in_fl]

Be careful using Aston Martin as a reference. They are having a very bad year:

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-...l-raises-and-0

Yes, unfortunately they can design beautiful cars but cannot figure out how to make the rest of the business work.

PS It is unusual to find a fellow ZH reader. Good news blog if you can filter through the agenda.

[Purple Haze]

Most everything is moving to digital. Many youth only care what they see on their screens and the immediacy of their senses for little $. Cars don't really fit in that equation with easy local transportation, buses, trains, electric scooters. Youth don't care for cars like the generations of old.

Excellent point. Young people are not spending the money on cars like these...

[Arizona Vipers]

Love my ACR, but my "backup plan" covers your bases - and it is in a Corvette - and it is mid engine....almost (19 inch drive shaft).

Pappy

56 Corvette BB1.jpg

Can't wait to see the front/rear weight distribution on this! The AMG GTR is front engine, but the engine is so far back it ended up at 47 front/53 rear yours might even be better!

[Sybil TF]

This thread is a sounding board for exactly why there will never be another Viper - Everyone has vastly different opinions on what it should be to re-enter the market. We are quite literally a bunch of old men yelling at the sky when manufacturers have moved on to courting young buyers and those who want self driving cars. Dodge isn't interested in the 60 year old who's going to buy a couple more new cars in their lifetime, they are after the 25 year olds who are going to buy 10.

True. And the reason Harley is slipping away as well. It is funny watching young Mustang boys going ape over this corvette.

[mikesax]

This thread is a sounding board for exactly why there will never be another Viper - Everyone has vastly different opinions on what it should be to re-enter the market. We are quite literally a bunch of old men yelling at the sky when manufacturers have moved on to courting young buyers and those who want self driving cars. Dodge isn't interested in the 60 year old who's going to buy a couple more new cars in their lifetime, they are after the 25 year olds who are going to buy 10.

Yup- truly a "Voice of Reason"- well said!

[RedTanRT/10]

This thread is a sounding board for exactly why there will never be another Viper - Everyone has vastly different opinions on what it should be to re-enter the market. We are quite literally a bunch of old men yelling at the sky when manufacturers have moved on to courting young buyers and those who want self driving cars. Dodge isn't interested in the 60 year old who's going to buy a couple more new cars in their lifetime, they are after the 25 year olds who are going to buy 10.

FCA isn't interested in investing millions into a low volume, unprofitable car that is no longer a halo for the brand. It's all about Ram and Jeep.

I think Sergio did the math and really didn't want a G5 but he wanted to keep Ralph happy as the Head Designer for FCA and agreed to spend the capital. After all the initial launch issues, mainstream dealer push back and the warranty issues he said we're done in 2017.

FCA is focused on merging, probably going to happen with Renault and Nissan/Mitsubishi. They are woefully behind in battery technology and need a partner. Pet projects like Viper aren't on the radar unless they decide someday to re-body and re-badge something else.

[JPL]

So earlier in this post I wrote what I would like to see in a new Viper, front engine, clam shell hood, etc, but thinking about it for a while, I might be leaning towards the idea of no new Viper. Maybe it's better to let it go and have it live on as the legend it has become. Sometimes, at this point, you have to be careful what you wish for, some wanted a new Charger and ended up with four doors. If everyone is looking forward, liking the mid engine cars, thinking that is the future of the American sports car, then, FCA, like I said before, put into production the 2004 ME 412, and continue your tradition of the American exotic super car. Redesign the rear lights, give it a Viper GenV-ish interior, >1000hp <$100k.

[Whitemamba]

So earlier in this post I wrote what I would like to see in a new Viper, front engine, clam shell hood, etc, but thinking about it for a while, I might be leaning towards the idea of no new Viper. Maybe it's better to let it go and have it live on as the legend it has become. Sometimes, at this point, you have to be careful what you wish for, some wanted a new Charger and ended up with four doors. If everyone is looking forward, liking the mid engine cars, thinking that is the future of the American sports car, then, FCA, like I said before, put into production the 2004 ME 412, and continue your tradition of the American exotic super car. Redesign the rear lights, give it a Viper GenV-ish interior, >1000hp <$100k.

Nice. It doesn't have to be called a Viper but Dodge needs a Sports car.

[est8esq]

Just finished watching various youtube videos of new C8. I've been purposely avoiding all the hype and rumors on this new platform. I've been too disappointed with their last C7 from days of Detroit's auto show and promises, delayed production, heat soak and limp mode to a fat dud with the ZR1/ZKE package. This C8's exposure feels very similar to the Viper ACR-E as it shook the motorsports world. It's really impressive what I'm learning and love the looks. Plus, this new C8 now comes with DCT. To me, that's a game changer and can't wait to start seeing reports of its track capabilities.

As I stated in an earlier post, if Viper ever decided to invest and complete R&D to current NHTSA standards AND build their DCT variant into the foundation of the Gen V...wow.

[J TNT]

Here is an idea from 50 years ago when Dodge had stronger conviction on New ideas ! Don't call it a Viper , Call it a Dodge Diamante !!!.......lol !

https://bangshift.com/general-news/c...e-concept-car/

[kriskyk]

I completely disagree with both of you. You cannot speak of the standouts or the individuals who came to buy a Viper and nobody would take them seriously. Every one of those that you mentioned had 100 more young bucks behind them or wishing they could afford one... trust me I was there when I was 20 - 25. While this cranking economy is making things seem fruitful, and yes the millennials are finally starting to crawl out from their financial rocks, I constantly see our youth buried in educational debt.... I work in finance and review credit reports daily. Are there youth that can buy six figure cars? Of course! But I can assure you that they are not running around in herds. Maybe I'm mistaken as I am only in my 40's but I did not consider myself "youth".

There are in the bay area and especially in relation to the total number of Gen V vipers produced

[Bruce H.]

Here is a interesting thought . If the New C8 Z06 / ZR1 become reliable ,affordable and a performance contender .
Will that affect the resale value on the used car market side of Exotic Mid Engine Cars ...............

I'm going to guess that the Corvette will have no impact, or very limited impact, regardless of how the Vette performs. I could be wrong, and may be at least partially, but the exotic market isn't so much based on where the engine is placed but rather the manufacturer, the car's beauty, rarity, high price and the status that projects. The Corvette won't compete on any of those fronts so I don't think those with true exotics should be too worried. I suspect some exotic owners will buy the C8 for the kids, the wife, and as a more daily beaters so they can keep the exotic protected in the garage.

[J TNT]

I'm going to guess that the Corvette will have no impact, or very limited impact, regardless of how the Vette performs. I could be wrong, and may be at least partially, but the exotic market isn't so much based on where the engine is placed but rather the manufacturer, the car's beauty, rarity, high price and the status that projects. The Corvette won't compete on any of those fronts so I don't think those with true exotics should be too worried. I suspect some exotic owners will buy the C8 for the kids, the wife, and as a more daily beaters so they can keep the exotic protected in the garage.

Interesting perspective as always Bruce . The Boutique car factor is always intriguing how it plays out.

[SSGNRDZ_28]

Gen VI Viper could still be mid front engine. Rear mid is the norm now, maybe it would be good to stand out in the crowd.

One reason Vette went rear engine is they didn't have an NA engine powerful enough to keep up with the competition. When the Z06 became supercharged that was the beginning of the end in my opinion. Watch some of the C8 Corvette interviews and this is stated - if not for tire improvements they didn't know if the ZR1 would out perform/accelerate the Z06. Adding a supercharger is a losing proposition - balance shift forward and heat soak makes it not ideal for the track or acceleration.

What the Viper did well was reduce weight every generation and had big power from a NA pushrod V10. This plus outrageous ACR aero made it the track king. The C5 Z06 was a lightweight NA track car but the Vette has been getting heavier ever since.

Back to Gen VI Viper. The Gen V was built on a shoestring budget. Spend the effort and money - have a big NA V10 / 12 that makes 650+ HP (this is the big unknown with emissions), don't reinvent the wheel but spend efforts to reduce weight (aluminum chassis, more exotic materials - especially up front to shift balance rearward). There's more to extract beyond what GM was willing / able to do with the Vette due to the requirement of mass appeal.

Lastly - how big will the C8 look next to a Viper? All just talking points for fun. I do like the C8 and look forward to the higher performance models but still isn't a Viper.

[Arizona Vipers]

Gen VI Viper could still be mid front engine. Rear mid is the norm now, maybe it would be good to stand out in the crowd.

One reason Vette went rear engine is they didn't have an NA engine powerful enough to keep up with the competition. When the Z06 became supercharged that was the beginning of the end in my opinion. Watch some of the C8 Corvette interviews and this is stated - if not for tire improvements they didn't know if the ZR1 would out perform/accelerate the Z06. Adding a supercharger is a losing proposition - balance shift forward and heat soak makes it not ideal for the track or acceleration.

What the Viper did well was reduce weight every generation and had big power from a NA pushrod V10. This plus outrageous ACR aero made it the track king. The C5 Z06 was a lightweight NA track car but the Vette has been getting heavier ever since.

Back to Gen VI Viper. The Gen V was built on a shoestring budget. Spend the effort and money - have a big NA V10 / 12 that makes 650+ HP (this is the big unknown with emissions), don't reinvent the wheel but spend efforts to reduce weight (aluminum chassis, more exotic materials - especially up front to shift balance rearward). There's more to extract beyond what GM was willing / able to do with the Vette due to the requirement of mass appeal.

Lastly - how big will the C8 look next to a Viper? All just talking points for fun. I do like the C8 and look forward to the higher performance models but still isn't a Viper.

The AMG GTR is 53 rear/47 front, that's the most rear bias I have ever seen in a front engine car. The engine basically sits in your lap, you have to move your arms like Tyrannosaurs Rex to put the shifter in gear that's on the console. LOL. I think the Gen 5 is around 51/49 with full tank. 60/40 would be awesome, but I don't think it's possible, especially with a huge motor. You'd have to add ballast which defeats the purpose. For the nasa nationals I've taken about 150 lbs off so I can add it all in the back and still make my class TT1. Car should be like 57/43. I'll report back on what that feels like. I might even be able to use first gear.

[J TNT]

Some interesting perspective , think you'll like the comments at the 7 minute mark...........

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UK4uItvCvQc

[Pappy]

I watch the Corvette forum and the car is billed as the greatest thing since sliced bread, and it may be, but there is no definitive information on its performance other than the 0-60 time. It is interesting that FCA took the ACR to the track, in secret, and released performance data with the reveal. I don't think anything like that will happen with the C8. This is a cheap mass produced car (probably 30,000+ units the first year), that will be purchased mostly by folks who could care less about ultimate track performance. I see a lot of magazine reviews that tout it's looks, uniqueness, innovation, maybe even comfort, but they won't say much about raw track performance. Just show me some track times - for any of the standard U.S. tracks - and I will form an opinion. If the car has the "bones" to make a good track car I might consider buying one to gut, cage, and track. But for a daily driver I still prefer my LTZ Silverado.

Pappy