Allpar C8 Corvette Debut Causes Renewed Demand for Viper Return

[ACR-ISH]

You won't see a Gen VI until they can sell ~30K units a year like the vette

They sell a lot more than that!

https://www.corvsport.com/corvette-sales-volume-year/

[Ronin47]

I lost count of how many vettes i saw just this year alone . Guess how many vipers i saw? Just one.

[Policy Limits]

This is the quintessential viper forum, so beware that Gen VI developers (if there are going to be an) are noting these comments from actuall viper owners. NO ONE SCREW IT UP PLEASE.

If one thing has been made clear from the launch, marketing and quality control of this generation & the epic ball drop on SRT dealerships for service/lack of viper techs by this manufacturer it's that they give zero fawks about us.

[ForTehNguyen]

dont be surprised if the C8 is an early adopters nightmare of a car with so many firsts for GM. Remember this is the same company that made the overheaty C7 Z06 on a platform they had plenty of experience at. Mid engine cars are even harder to cool than front engine.

At the price level it's claimed to be offered at, somewhere someone's cutting corners.

It has to make a profit and an ROI one way or another.

This is what doesnt pass the smell test with me. So let me get this straight, somehow GM figured out some secret sauce formula to make a super price efficient car that no other car company has managed to figure out? Then why does the rest of their lineup suck? Silverado/Sierra are getting eaten alive by Ram, Camaro is selling so badly, worse than the 10+ year old Challenger platform that they arent going to bother with a next gen, which is sad. They can announce 60k all they want, but the only specs worth a damn are going to be 80-85k. Prepare for option sticker shock and nickel and diming.

Its already starting, charging $5k for something that literally costs them nothing.

https://jalopnik.com/you-can-customi...000-1836659212

[Policy Limits]

[QUOTE=ForTehNguyen;388531]dont be surprised if the C8 is an early adopters nightmare of a car with so many firsts for GM. Remember this is the same company that made the overheaty C7 Z06 on a platform they had plenty of experience at. Mid engine cars are even harder to cool than front engine.
/QUOTE]
Good point. I learned the hard way not to order first production year of a new generation

[Fulltilt]

First off you have to respect GM's marketing and execution of the C8 Corvette. If I could afford a 2nd sports car it would probably be a convertible Corvette and I would drive the shit out of it.

Dodge - Don't build another car named Viper if it doesn't have a V10. Instead, build a front engine, rear wheel drive, aluminum block HEMI with twin turbos, a convertible option available with a 8spd dual clutch or a 6spd manual. After the car is produced and it's raced in GT3, make a street version of the car with the GT3 body. It drives me nuts Dodge didn't use the GT3 race car body on the ACR. Could you imagine a blue and white striped ACR with a GT3 wide body driving down the road.

[Scott_in_fl]

^^^ Would have been sick!

[Vegaskid]

Agree with ForTehNguyen. Wasn't the launch delayed due to electrical issues? I can't begin to imagine the crap that is going to happen when people start driving this thing in the rain and in the summer heat.

[ACR-ISH]

They can always rename it under a relaunched Pontiac brand.

[ForTehNguyen]

they had to delay the debut by 6 months because they had to completely redesign the electrical system and the performance engine on the higher trims was twisting the chassis and breaking the rear glass.

https://carbuzz.com/news/1000-hp-c8-...eir-own-frames

[ViperJon]

If one thing has been made clear from the launch, marketing and quality control of this generation & the epic ball drop on SRT dealerships for service/lack of viper techs by this manufacturer it's that they give zero fawks about us.

It's literally a case study on how not to introduce a new generation. From the abysmal early quality control that has never been even acknowledged by the manufacturer to the completely inept service departments at most dealerships owning a Gen V viper has been a challenge that a 100K+ car should never have to suffer. And now, in a grand gesture to the loyal customers who paid big money to own the discontinued "flagship" car they are doing all they can to avoid warranty claims on issues they KNOW were present from the beginning by using some obscure technicality like your oil wasn't changed every six months. Despicable.

[Bruce H.]

First year buyers take a risk as it's common knowledge that first year builds are prone to have more issues. Most of the Gen V common issues were limited to the 2013's and early 2014's, including the engine bearing issue which mostly affected cars built prior to Dec 2014. I don't think many bought the low production hand built Viper from SRT/Dodge expecting the build quality of any other car selling in the $100,000+ range...meaning Lexus, Porsche, Mercedes, etc.

I think sales of the Viper partially reflect the lower industry reputation of Dodge build quality, and the relatively few of us that did buy the car knew we were rolling the dice and should have expected that the cost of driving such a car was dealing with issues more often than a car from a higher rated brand. Some of those with early builds complained relentlessly and then bought newer and newer ones, still complaining about their first year builds that had long ago been sorted and went on to happy new owners.

I just think owners of early production cars need to recognize the reality of risk they knowingly accepted.

Availability of quality service is another issue that probably can't be defended. But fortunately there are many shops with great reputations, and some definitely not close to some owners. I would have thought checking the availability of good local service would have been part of a buyers due diligence.

I obviously put a lot of responsibility on the buyer of a vehicle to make an informed purchase decision. The resources are all there for buyers to research, this forum being the most important. I used them in 2013, I knew there were lots of issues with the early cars, but most importantly I determined that great local service was available. I accepted the risk that my late 2014 might have issues that needed attention, perhaps repeated attention, but that it would get sorted with quality service. It did have some issues and they were promptly and painlessly taken care of.

I've owned a lot of cars and a lot of sports cars over decades of driving and my favorite ones happen to have been the most exciting to drive and the least reliable....and I knew they would be when I bought them! I recently bought a new Porsche for double the MSRP of my Viper TA and was disappointed and enraged when Porsche wouldn't warranty an obvious defect. Porsche is top rated but I've never been treated so poorly. SRT/Dodge and my servicing dealer have been very fair and nothing short of outstanding at covering repairs under warranty.

Experiences obviously vary, and hopefully those with issues will be able to find quality service, even if they have to travel to get it.

Bruce

[Bryan Savage]

they had to delay the debut by 6 months because they had to completely redesign the electrical system and the performance engine on the higher trims was twisting the chassis and breaking the rear glass.

https://carbuzz.com/news/1000-hp-c8-...eir-own-frames

False.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-car...ign-interview/

R&T: You’ve dealt with a lot of rumors. I remember one in particular—that the rear glass was cracking under acceleration.

Corvette Chief Engineer Tadge Juechter: That’s absolutely false and actually preposterous on the face of it. The body structure’s not designed around engine torque or engine output. That’s a trivial load.

Design Manager Kirk Bennion: How that rumor got started was Cadillac was track-testing, and they were changing out parts. They broke one of them and threw it out. We were testing later. Someone saw that broken part in the trash and assumed that it came off a Corvette.

TJ: There’s all this falsehood out there. And we can’t address it. We’re not gonna go out there and try to explain away every little thing.

[ForTehNguyen]

so they waited for 4 months to say it was false while rumors swirled? So anyone could access this trashcan and obtain proprietary secret test parts? I guess.

[ACR-ISH]

Pretty good read. Dealt with a lot of the things we have been discussing.

Bottom line... time will tell as to how well they did.

[Bryan Savage]

so they waited for 4 months to say it was false while rumors swirled? So anyone could access this trashcan and obtain proprietary secret test parts? I guess.

Put yourself in Team Corvette's shoes. They've got a huge pile of work to do and crushing deadlines to meet. All it takes is two words, or someone's internet render, or someone with even the slightest amount of credibility, to say anything at all, and every media outlet grabs that information and runs with it.

Heck, the article at the beginning of this thread even admits there's zero facts or credible information behind it, but once you get people's heads swirling, there's no end to the speculation.

Considering how that one spy shot could make or break someone's career, and there are many people that camp outside the fences of automotive testing facilities, just sitting in a bush, waiting to get us all that one money shot of a prototype car out in the open, I would venture to bet there's no end to the lengths people will go to get "the big scoop". Dumpster diving is probably the least of a manufacturer's worries.

Being Chevy, you have to eventually ignore most things. They'd spend more time and resources trying to shut down the rumor mill than it's worth.

[Scott_in_fl]

First year buyers take a risk as it's common knowledge that first year builds are prone to have more issues. Most of the Gen V common issues were limited to the 2013's and early 2014's, including the engine bearing issue which mostly affected cars built prior to Dec 2014. I don't think many bought the low production hand built Viper from SRT/Dodge expecting the build quality of any other car selling in the $100,000+ range...meaning Lexus, Porsche, Mercedes, etc.

I think sales of the Viper partially reflect the lower industry reputation of Dodge build quality, and the relatively few of us that did buy the car knew we were rolling the dice and should have expected that the cost of driving such a car was dealing with issues more often than a car from a higher rated brand. Some of those with early builds complained relentlessly and then bought newer and newer ones, still complaining about their first year builds that had long ago been sorted and went on to happy new owners.

I just think owners of early production cars need to recognize the reality of risk they knowingly accepted.

Availability of quality service is another issue that probably can't be defended. But fortunately there are many shops with great reputations, and some definitely not close to some owners. I would have thought checking the availability of good local service would have been part of a buyers due diligence.

I obviously put a lot of responsibility on the buyer of a vehicle to make an informed purchase decision. The resources are all there for buyers to research, this forum being the most important. I used them in 2013, I knew there were lots of issues with the early cars, but most importantly I determined that great local service was available. I accepted the risk that my late 2014 might have issues that needed attention, perhaps repeated attention, but that it would get sorted with quality service. It did have some issues and they were promptly and painlessly taken care of.

I've owned a lot of cars and a lot of sports cars over decades of driving and my favorite ones happen to have been the most exciting to drive and the least reliable....and I knew they would be when I bought them! I recently bought a new Porsche for double the MSRP of my Viper TA and was disappointed and enraged when Porsche wouldn't warranty an obvious defect. Porsche is top rated but I've never been treated so poorly. SRT/Dodge and my servicing dealer have been very fair and nothing short of outstanding at covering repairs under warranty.

Experiences obviously vary, and hopefully those with issues will be able to find quality service, even if they have to travel to get it.

Bruce

Agree that the dealer experience is hit or miss. I've been to luxury dealers that won't give you the time of day, and Dodge dealers that are terrific (unfortunately for me, I had to travel to Atlanta for that experience).

However, I think the word is getting out and the poor dealers are going to start changing their tune. Consumers have the Internet and forums, and social media, and are choosing reputable dealers over non-reputable dealers more and more. This is especially true given that new car pricing is extremely competitive among same brand stores these days. Moreover, auto sales are in recession and are predicted to worsen, which makes the dealer experience only more important for those that want to keep customers and protect their bottom line. So I think you're going to find things changing across the board very soon for the better, if you have not already.

Regarding Corvette quality, keep in mind that this car has been in the design stage for a really long time. Not only were there the various CERV concepts (because Zora Duntov always wanted an ME platform), but the ME was supposed to be the C7. The eventual C7 was a stopgap measure because the global financial crisis derailed the ability of GM (it became Government Motors -- lol) to continue to develop an entirely new platform.

So, the ME is not something that was just slapped together. Yes, there have been some issues, but this car has also been testing for several years and one hopes that all of those issues have been revealed by now and addressed. During that same time, plenty of other MFG's have refined their ME cars, which no doubt has also contributed to GM being able to "engineer" some of that knowledge into the C8. I expect a pretty fantastic car.

Which all further explains why Dodge cannot just slap together a new Viper. To do it right takes many years of R&D, testing, and refining.

[SRT_BluByU]

Which all further explains why Dodge cannot just slap together a new Viper. To do it right takes many years of R&D, testing, and refining.

Hopefully thats been going on (and continues to) behind these scenes right now and we just don't know about it.... fingers crossed.

[SlateEd]

First year buyers take a risk as it's common knowledge that first year builds are prone to have more issues. Most of the Gen V common issues were limited to the 2013's and early 2014's, including the engine bearing issue which mostly affected cars built prior to Dec 2014. I don't think many bought the low production hand built Viper from SRT/Dodge expecting the build quality of any other car selling in the $100,000+ range...meaning Lexus, Porsche, Mercedes, etc.

I think sales of the Viper partially reflect the lower industry reputation of Dodge build quality, and the relatively few of us that did buy the car knew we were rolling the dice and should have expected that the cost of driving such a car was dealing with issues more often than a car from a higher rated brand. Some of those with early builds complained relentlessly and then bought newer and newer ones, still complaining about their first year builds that had long ago been sorted and went on to happy new owners.

I just think owners of early production cars need to recognize the reality of risk they knowingly accepted.

Availability of quality service is another issue that probably can't be defended. But fortunately there are many shops with great reputations, and some definitely not close to some owners. I would have thought checking the availability of good local service would have been part of a buyers due diligence.

I obviously put a lot of responsibility on the buyer of a vehicle to make an informed purchase decision. The resources are all there for buyers to research, this forum being the most important. I used them in 2013, I knew there were lots of issues with the early cars, but most importantly I determined that great local service was available. I accepted the risk that my late 2014 might have issues that needed attention, perhaps repeated attention, but that it would get sorted with quality service. It did have some issues and they were promptly and painlessly taken care of.

I've owned a lot of cars and a lot of sports cars over decades of driving and my favorite ones happen to have been the most exciting to drive and the least reliable....and I knew they would be when I bought them! I recently bought a new Porsche for double the MSRP of my Viper TA and was disappointed and enraged when Porsche wouldn't warranty an obvious defect. Porsche is top rated but I've never been treated so poorly. SRT/Dodge and my servicing dealer have been very fair and nothing short of outstanding at covering repairs under warranty.

Experiences obviously vary, and hopefully those with issues will be able to find quality service, even if they have to travel to get it.

Bruce

You make some great points - and dealer service does vary dramatically.

But there's one thing that so many on this forum and elsewhere accept as true, and we need to stop doing it. The "higher end" exotic brands are not really more reliable than Viper. They just aren't. Actually talk to the guys you know who have Lambos and Ferraris and McLarens.

It's about perspective, and we have let ours be clouded and downgraded over time, partially from those lousy dealer experiences, not the car.

Someone I was lucky to call a friend owned Two McLaren P1s... They were both in the shop more often than on the road. But this guy didn't let it bother him.. he even joked about it. In his words "I'm waiting for them to fly someone back from Mars or wherever the F they engineer these things to fix it" In his joking, he defended the brand... even the repair techs are exotic as if that's a good thing.

One salient point from this - The stakes are higher for cars that are less expensive. It's counterintuitive because you would think hypercar buyers would be more demanding, but how much it "costs" is always relative to what you had to give up to get it. (more demanding to the dealership, probably yes. but bitching about it on the internet.. nope)
The guy with 2 P1s had enough coin not to care. When those were down, he would pull an AMG black from the hangar, or take his plane for a flight, or whatever. The car was still broken, but he didn't care as much as a Dodge or Chevy buyer who (on average) may be stretching the budget to get something exciting. If it's a reach financially, any flaw is more frustrating.

Chevy will face that part just like dodge does... when someone scrapes a big chunk of their retirement to buy a 'Vette, it's a big deal to that person.

[Bruce H.]

Some great perspectives.

And always easier if you have more than one toy to allow for the real possibility that one can be down and then you just don't need to worry about it as much, or at all.

And it helps if you're retired and you have more time flexibility to deal with stuff, cars issues and everything else that comes up

[swexlin]

Just look at the McLaren 12C - they are reliability nightmares. Period. Ferrari before the 458 hit or miss. Lambo has improved dramatically.
Not to mention BMW....M5s (older versions) in particular.

[ACR-ISH]

Just look at the McLaren 12C - they are reliability nightmares. Period. Ferrari before the 458 hit or miss. Lambo has improved dramatically.
Not to mention BMW....M5s (older versions) in particular.

Agreed. I'm on the fence, too. SHOULDN'T cars of that caliber have amazing reliability for the money? My buddy went through 3 McClaren's before his current 720. His trans went out at 500 miles and then 3000 miles on his last one. Then his door got stuck upon (luckily in his garage) because of a faulty safety switch. Nice way to waste $300k... a few times.

Viper's biggest lingering issues are window pieces and small items... not bad, I say... not bad.

[JPL]

But there's one thing that so many on this forum and elsewhere accept as true, and we need to stop doing it. The "higher end" exotic brands are not really more reliable than Viper. They just aren't. Actually talk to the guys you know who have Lambos and Ferraris and McLarens.

Agreed, this time last year my Ferrari 360 was in the shop in Long Island for 5 weeks, came back not 100% so it went off to another shop to Pennsylvania to sort it out. FF; 360 replaced by '08 ACR. So, after being a gen1 owner for 12 years, and a Ferrari owner for 4, you defiantly learn some things.....

[JPL]

Or, if you don't want to build a mid engine Viper, (to me it would look like we're following and not leading), put this into production:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsuwQKy_ivs

Just tweak the side scoop, rear lights and put in an interior loosely based on the Viper genV.

[SRT_BluByU]

that car looks great even all these years later