Allpar C8 Corvette Debut Causes Renewed Demand for Viper Return

[viperBase1]

Thanks for clarifying the release date of that article Mike! Thought it was new.. seemed significant.

More than anything else, the Flat Plane Crank is ANOTHER new technology GM is bringing to the car.
I think this means a number of engine components will be moving to the top of the engine.
And the article talks about all the INCREASED VIBRATIONS this engine will introduce (to the entire system).

Definitely wait-n-see for the Z06. Maybe 2021 'ish?

[J TNT]

Who’s Mike.........lol !

Thanks for clarifying the release date of that article Mike! Thought it was new.. seemed significant.

More than anything else, the Flat Plane Crank is ANOTHER new technology GM is bringing to the car.
I think this means a number of engine components will be moving to the top of the engine.
And the article talks about all the INCREASED VIBRATIONS this engine will introduce (to the entire system).

Definitely wait-n-see for the Z06. Maybe 2021 'ish?

[SharpMan]

IMO the c8 is a nice car but will end up like the c7, popular at first then 'oh look another vette'. Vipers will always be head turners. Not sure how old this news is but i was talking with my Viper tech the other day and he mentioned the new Barracuda SRT has coming down the pike.

https://www.allpar.com/cars/dodge/barracuda.html

But did you by your car to "turn heads"? I didn't.

[viperBase1]

Interesting performance and spec numbers if true.

https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...ance-data.html

Further analyzed by Hagerty here: Leaked Performance Data

[J TNT]

The C8 R will be interesting to see how it's bench marked .....
Possibly Flat Plane crank , twin turbo 5.5 litre V8 , Similar to Ferrari but bigger displacement .

[gfviperman]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVG6TPNcaDY

Never tried this, hope it works ...

[NT-ACR]

I guess if Dodge was to bring back the Viper or create a new vehicle that occupies a similar place in the market, I would probably like for it to be a truly customizable vehicle.

Basically, start with a beautiful carbon fiber body draped over a new aluminum chassis and then allow customers to add as many options (or none at all) as they want.

Chassis
Aluminum (co-develop with Maserati and/or Alfa Romeo to spread costs)

Engines:
6.4L Hemi- 650 hp, 600 ft lbs (naturally aspirated)
6.4L Hemi- 750/750 (supercharged)
6.4L Hemi- 850/850 (supercharged)

The first engine would take extensive modifications and would probably have to spin to around 7,500 rpm but you could possibly justify the cost by using detuned versions in other Dodge products. My point is, it would be better to invest in the engines you already have than try to develop a new one. Also, you might loose some weight going from a V10 to V8. I looked at the Audi R8 and the V8 models are around 60 lbs lighter than the V10 ones.

Transmissions:
Tremec TR-6060 transaxle (manual)
Tremec TR-9070 transaxle (dual clutch)

A transaxle frees up interior space and adds weight towards the rear to benefit traction.

Brakes
Front- 15.5 in.
Rear- 15 in.
Standard- steel
Option- carbon ceramic

Wheels
Front- 19 in.
Rear- 19 in.

Tires
285/35/19
345/30/19

Aerodynamic Packages:
Base
TA
TA 2.0
Extreme Aero

Suspension
Electronic (Bilstein or Tractive)
Manual (Bilstein or Ohlins)

Interior
Partial leather
Full leather
Alcantara

Price range
Base- $90k
Fully optioned- $165k

You get the idea. Basically, offer a great car and then let people create exactly the vehicle that they want. They just go down the list of available options and choose what they want. Want a base car with nothing but the most powerful engine? Great! Want ever conceivable option? Fantastic.

I think Dodge was on the right track with their 1 of 1 program as it's literally what every Porsche, Ferrari, Lamborghini, etc. owner hankers for. I just wish the Gen V wasn't so poorly marketed from its launch.

[Pappy]

Great plan. ^^^^^^^ I want the HP, but not the supercharger. I would give up the HP for a 500# reduction in weight (single seat option, no carpet, radio/speaker and A/C delete, no Nav or UConnect) - that kind of stuff. I would like to see a factory option roll cage - oops, going too far for a street car. Maybe a cage-in-a-box like the Demon in-trunk options. If you watch the Corvette forum, in order to appeal to the masses it will need a convertible option, multiple 120 volt outlets, an air freshener option, and, of course, multiple choices in caliper colors.

Pappy

[SharpMan]

Great plan. ^^^^^^^ I want the HP, but not the supercharger. I would give up the HP for a 500# reduction in weight (single seat option, no carpet, radio/speaker and A/C delete, no Nav or UConnect) - that kind of stuff. I would like to see a factory option roll cage - oops, going too far for a street car. Maybe a cage-in-a-box like the Demon in-trunk options. If you watch the Corvette forum, in order to appeal to the masses it will need a convertible option, multiple 120 volt outlets, an air freshener option, and, of course, multiple choices in caliper colors.

Pappy

Well it is a car that most will take for a drive / cruise and many will daily drive. I wouldn't worry though...there will be plenty of version and if GM sees demand why not an ACR type pacakge? What do they call it on Camaro...ZL1 ZLE?

[blingnoring]

But did you by your car to "turn heads"? I didn't.

no sir, turning heads is an added bonus. I bought my 14' GTS about a couple years ago and all I did was sit in it and start it up. I was sold. this car is definitely not for everybody,(louder exhaust, hard to see from rear view mirror etc). imo, the vette is more user friendly. i felt it was a car that i could not get bored of and so far it didn't disappoint. i was a corvette guy all my life, i had 3 and after a few months, it became just a car. 2 years later, and i still walk out of my garage and stare at it before i go to work and when i come home. the feeling is the same as when i bought the car, i can't get enough of it. i also like 'displacement' over the supercharged vette for the simple reason i have more options available when it comes time to modify (ie. turbo, 9 liter etc).

[Scott_in_fl]

no sir, turning heads is an added bonus. I bought my 14' GTS about a couple years ago and all I did was sit in it and start it up. I was sold. this car is definitely not for everybody,(louder exhaust, hard to see from rear view mirror etc). imo, the vette is more user friendly. i felt it was a car that i could not get bored of and so far it didn't disappoint. i was a corvette guy all my life, i had 3 and after a few months, it became just a car. 2 years later, and i still walk out of my garage and stare at it before i go to work and when i come home. the feeling is the same as when i bought the car, i can't get enough of it. i also like 'displacement' over the supercharged vette for the simple reason i have more options available when it comes time to modify (ie. turbo, 9 liter etc).

^^^ Amen!

[SRT_BluByU]

I be happy with a Gen V.5 keep it as is and jsut add a paddle shifted transmission.

[Scott_in_fl]

Anything that would come next would absolutely need a wide-body design. The GT3R look, with the wide fenders and wasp waist, is where it's at. 800hp and paddle shifted.

A Gen 5 Viper is 76"wide. An Aventador is 80" wide. And a Ford Raptor is 86" wide.

So there is plenty of room within laws/regs to make a much wider car.

If they get the proportions right, it would be soooo awesome.

[One Viper Bite]

I be happy with a Gen V.5 keep it as is and jsut add a paddle shifted transmission.

Needs active aero and a monocoque chassis. The Gen V doesn't need more power. You could keep the power exactly as is. But it needs a lighter, stiffer chassis and active aero.

We've seen how capable the car is in the TA variant and the ACR. Just give us smart aero, a dual clutch, and a lighter, stiffer chassis.

[SRT_BluByU]

Dont forget start stop and an eco button...

[J TNT]

Funny even Ralph Gilles commented positively on the New C8 , on Autoline last Saturday ...

[Snakebit10]

Its got to be a little hard for Ralph working there and not being able to design and build a new Viper. Then Chevy pops out a mid-engined C8 to make it even harder lol.

Some say the Viper needs to be rear mid-engined to compete but I don't think so. Its whole hisstory its been eating high-tech rear mid-engined/rear engined, dct'd, AWD, hybrid, torque vectoring super and hyper cars. I think it will need lighter weight, DCT and active aero to fully compete with the current crop. But I think it will be fine continuing with the front midship layout.

If they do go mid engined with the Viper, I really hope they keep the Viper proportions unlike what Chevy did with the Vette.

EDIT: On Autoline, Ralph said if the Viper does come back it will be something totally different. So the Vipers ethos as we know it is permanently dead. Enjoy your Gen 1-5's folks. They truly are among the last of the analog exotics/supercars.

[Clutch2014]

I guess if Dodge was to bring back the Viper or create a new vehicle that occupies a similar place in the market, I would probably like for it to be a truly customizable vehicle.

Basically, start with a beautiful carbon fiber body draped over a new aluminum chassis and then allow customers to add as many options (or none at all) as they want.

Chassis
Aluminum (co-develop with Maserati and/or Alfa Romeo to spread costs)

Engines:
6.4L Hemi- 650 hp, 600 ft lbs (naturally aspirated)
6.4L Hemi- 750/750 (supercharged)
6.4L Hemi- 850/850 (supercharged)

The first engine would take extensive modifications and would probably have to spin to around 7,500 rpm but you could possibly justify the cost by using detuned versions in other Dodge products. My point is, it would be better to invest in the engines you already have than try to develop a new one. Also, you might loose some weight going from a V10 to V8. I looked at the Audi R8 and the V8 models are around 60 lbs lighter than the V10 ones.

Transmissions:
Tremec TR-6060 transaxle (manual)
Tremec TR-9070 transaxle (dual clutch)

A transaxle frees up interior space and adds weight towards the rear to benefit traction.

Brakes
Front- 15.5 in.
Rear- 15 in.
Standard- steel
Option- carbon ceramic

Wheels
Front- 19 in.
Rear- 19 in.

Tires
285/35/19
345/30/19

Aerodynamic Packages:
Base
TA
TA 2.0
Extreme Aero

Suspension
Electronic (Bilstein or Tractive)
Manual (Bilstein or Ohlins)

Interior
Partial leather
Full leather
Alcantara

Price range
Base- $90k
Fully optioned- $165k

You get the idea. Basically, offer a great car and then let people create exactly the vehicle that they want. They just go down the list of available options and choose what they want. Want a base car with nothing but the most powerful engine? Great! Want ever conceivable option? Fantastic.

I think Dodge was on the right track with their 1 of 1 program as it's literally what every Porsche, Ferrari, Lamborghini, etc. owner hankers for. I just wish the Gen V wasn't so poorly marketed from its launch.

The one main thing I don't agree with about this is the lack of a V10. I think that the Viper should have a V10, even if there is a V8 option for it. Also - and this is a purely irrational opinion - keep the Hellcat motor away from the Viper. That motor and everything it touches is the definition of laziness.

That said, I also think that there shouldn't be a huge rush to cram a Gen VI with power. In fact, cap things at 700 hp or just above, and then put the utmost effort possible into tuning the chassis and suspension so that it can handle the power and making it as light as possible. Curb weight, minus driver, for the Gen V GTS was around 3250-3300 lbs, so the Gen VI should aim for 3200 or less, and on the "regular" street model at that (more track-oriented trims should push for even less).

[NT-ACR]

The one main thing I don't agree with about this is the lack of a V10. I think that the Viper should have a V10, even if there is a V8 option for it. Also - and this is a purely irrational opinion - keep the Hellcat motor away from the Viper. That motor and everything it touches is the definition of laziness.

That said, I also think that there shouldn't be a huge rush to cram a Gen VI with power. In fact, cap things at 700 hp or just above, and then put the utmost effort possible into tuning the chassis and suspension so that it can handle the power and making it as light as possible. Curb weight, minus driver, for the Gen V GTS was around 3250-3300 lbs, so the Gen VI should aim for 3200 or less, and on the "regular" street model at that (more track-oriented trims should push for even less).

I guess I just can't understand the benefit of keeping the V10 other than nostalgia. Dodge went through hell to get the V10 emissions legal and compliant for the Gen V, so why would they want to spend more money on an engine that is technically outdated and unable to be used in other models in your line up?

Also, even if you don't like the current Apache engines, that's fine. To make the kind of power that I proposed, they would have to undergo extensive changes anyway.

To your point about chasing horsepower though, I agree. I also agree with Pappy about avoiding supercharged engines. They just don't seem to manage heat well. To that end, I was thinking the engine selection should now be:

6.4L Hemi- 625 hp, 575 ft lb
7.0L Hemi- 700, 650

I'm not worried about Dodge making a great suspension setup to handle the power.

'Street driving was severely colored by my track impressions,' Evans says. 'Even with all the safeties on, I was trepidatious when going hard on the throttle. I couldn't help but worry that the rear end would come around on me. I never thought I'd say this, but the Corvette people need to buy this Viper and figure out how they got the rear end nailed down.'

https://www.motortrend.com/cars/dodg...he-911-gt3-rs/

Concerning weight, I looked up my Audi R8 V8 and V10 comparison. V10 was 3,731 pounds. V8 was 3,654 pounds. So, about 77 pounds difference. If the Viper or whatever the model is called can achieve a similar reduction in weight from downsizing to a V8, that's a serious weight loss. Factor in maybe another 80 pounds or so of weight loss from upgrading to a new aluminum chassis and that's potentially over 150 pounds of weight loss. Then you consider that the two ACRs that Motor Trend tested were 3,368 pounds and 3,379 pounds and you've nearly reached your target weight of 3,200 pound curb weight right there. You could then offer a "hardcore package" that deletes A/C and the stereo for a definite sub 3,200 pound car. That said if Dodge could make a car that even fully-equipped only ended up with a curb weight of 3,350 pounds or so, that's pretty darn amazing and exciting with all the bloat current competitors are experiencing.

[viperBase1]

https://youtu.be/9kxcwgtaqAc


FINALLY. A real 3rd party reviewer gets to drive the C8 on the Track.. but wait... still can't talk about it!!!
A-Freakin-Mazing... Just Wow. Still to this day.. a news embargo?


In the recording from inside the car.. "sounds" like Geese farts on a muggy day. Not impressed.

He didn't look pleased with the experience AT ALL.

[Jprince]

It looked like a handful to me. Didn't look like it handled that well, but of course all the comments on youtube are talking about how it beat everything and how great it handled. We'll see..

[RedTanRT/10]

Base, I read R&T on line yesterday that many publications have driven the new car, I think up at Thunderhill, they are all on hold to publish for about 20 more days.

I did read that it has a "burnout" mode. I could care less but that will get attention from many.

[Bill Pemberton]

Red/Tan,

You missed the connotation , as the " Burnout Mode, " is there because GM figures after having the car for a few weeks of ownership , you will be completely bored and underwhelmed , so the " Burnout Mode, " is a free audio channel with Dr. Phil to get you out of your funk of being burned out with the Chebby , and get you back on track to being excited -- at least for a short period.

GPS, cruise, active handling, blindside monitoring ,etc,. and now an nanny device to get rid of the boredom of the new C8 ----- " Burnout mode to alleviate your unhappy psychosis!"

[viperBase1]

It looked like a handful to me. Didn't look like it handled that well, but of course all the comments on youtube are talking about how it beat everything and how great it handled. We'll see..

Yeah I agree.. and he pinned a reply to the top of the comments section saying "I am going relatively easy in the car", but it seemed to be breaking lose a lot.
Guess we're about to hear more soon enough.

Base, I read R&T on line yesterday that many publications have driven the new car, I think up at Thunderhill, they are all on hold to publish for about 20 more days. I did read that it has a "burnout" mode. I could care less but that will get attention from many.

Yeah he posted this long pod-cast where they talk about the MotorTrend PCOTY testing (Performance Car Of The Year) going on at Thunderhill. https://youtu.be/RtSYNyN1fd8
Its in there somewhere.

Yeah Burn-Out mode! That's always fun.

[Bruce H.]

I'd really like to be have been able to get excited about this new generation of Vette, or the previous C5, C6 and C7, but while they're always hyped to be the greatest and best performing Vette ever they also seem to be chronically plagued by problems that GM calculates are acceptable to release and leave unresolved. Those who plan to use the car on track as GM markets it are left to do the stress testing and then pound sand when they identify the various deficiencies. Every track friend that has had one has experienced the same over various generations, and it is not remotely possible that the C8 will be any better sorted. To think otherwise requires the wholesale disregard for the feedback of owners that use the car as marketed.

But it will be a massive sales success to those that always buy the latest Vette, to those impressed with the marketing and journalist performance hype that is inevitable, to those who don't test the car's track capabilities at a high skill level, and for those hard core track rats that do as the chief engineer of the C7 advised...do a couple of hot laps and then some cool down laps to bring down temps to avoid going into limp mode, LMFAO hahahahaha Epic Design Fails.