Allpar C8 Corvette Debut Causes Renewed Demand for Viper Return

[Bryan Savage]

Kind of an eye-roller, but since it's been at least a day since something like this was discussed, it's a decent read.

https://www.allpar.com/news/2019/07/...r-return-45253

Reprinted here, in case the link ever gets broken. Click the link anyway, since they have photos and need the traffic.

by Patrick Rall on July 23, 2019 at 8:40 am EDT

Last week, General Motors introduced the C8 Chevrolet Corvette with the long-anticipated transition to a mid-engine architecture, leading to many Mopar lovers calling for the return of the Dodge Viper. After years of watching the Viper duke it out with the Corvette on road course race tracks all over the world, both in racing and production form, the new Chevy sports car is relatively unrivaled in its conquest of the American sports car market, but a supercharged Hemi in a Gen 6 Dodge supercar would fix that.

Before getting into this discussion of the renewed demand for the Dodge Viper, we should point out that there has not been any information from anyone within FCA – even from our trusted and proven insiders – that the company will bring another supercar to market anytime soon. When the Viper was discontinued in 2017, the Connor Avenue Assembly Plant that had been the home to the Mopar supercar for generations was gutted and transformed into a museum of sorts, at which point many folks in the community conceded to the idea that the Viper was truly gone forever.

While there is nothing to prove that the Viper is coming back, we don’t think that Dodge has completely given up on the legendary supercar, nor do many people in the Mopar community. With the arrival of the mid-engine C8 Corvette, many Mopar fans want to see FCA roll out a new supercar with a supercharged Hemi soon enough to spoil the party for GM fans. We would also love to see a Viper back in showrooms soon, but we aren’t holding our breath, although we are inclined to agree with the masses that the Corvette needs a proper rival beyond the ultra-low-production Ford GT.

Hemi Viper Demand

If you are active in any large Dodge social media groups, the odds are good that you have seen people posting about the C8 Corvette as a way to show that the Viper needs to return. In some cases, Mopar lovers want to see a refined version of the Gen 5 Viper, including a new version of the V10 – possibly with forced induction – and the weight reduction needed to compete with the mid-engine C8 Corvette. The new Vette “only” has 495 horsepower, but there are rumors that we will see a Z06 and ZR1 variant with power levels that could near 1,000 horsepower.

The Viper V10 is capable of those numbers with forced induction, but many Mopar fans don’t think that the company should continue working with the Lamborghini-developed V10. Many Moparians want the next generation Dodge supercar to be powered by a unique version of the Hellcat Hemi. The Challenger is currently offered with 797 horsepower in Redeye form while the Hellephant Hemi offers 1,000 horsepower. The problem with the Hellephant is that it is not emission-compliant, but with some tweaks, there is no reason that Dodge couldn’t tune a Hellcat Hemi to deliver north of 800 horsepower on pump gas.

There is then another split of Mopar fans who want to see the front-engine placement carried forward while others want Dodge to truly take on the new Corvette head-to-head with a mid-engine design. Chrysler previously dabbled in mid-engine design with the Chrysler ME412 concept back in 2004 and there have long-been reports that Dodge considered-then-scrapped a mid-engine Viper back in the day. With this in mind, it is possible that FCA could develop a mid-engine Dodge supercar, especially when you look at the mid-engine expertise of the Fiat engineers who worked with Ferrari.

While Viper traditionalists will likely scoff at the idea of a Dodge supercar without a V10 between the front wheels, but there is no question that a mid-engined Viper with an 850-horsepower supercharged Hemi would draw more attention than the Gen 5 car that drove off into the sunset two years ago. This shift to mid-engine would improve handling performance while the big power of the supercharged Hemi would allow this supercar to take on any competitor in the world. Best of all, in using the Hemi engine architecture, that aspect of this Viper would cost less than building the V10, and lower internal costs lead to a lower purchase price for the consumer.

Of course, a mid-engine Viper with an 850-horsepower Hellcat Hemi would almost certainly cost more than the Gen 5 cars, but if Dodge could make a supercar like this for under $100,000 to start, it could be a proper competitor to the higher performance C8 Corvettes that are expected to arrive over the next few years.

Again, we are just dreaming here, but it seems that between the Dodge engineers and the Fiat engineers, the knowledge is there to create a mid-engine supercar that would shock the performance car world.

[viperman4125]

I agree with you Bryan!
Thanks for your help with Susan, and her car.
Dave

[JPL]

Great post, from the article:
"There is then another split of Mopar fans who want to see the front-engine placement carried forward while others want Dodge to truly take on the new Corvette head-to-head with a mid-engine design."

So I think this is a great opportunity for the FCA to see what we would like, my personal opinion:

-Front engine 1000 hp V-10
-Manual transmission
-Clam shell hood/fenders
-Side exhaust
-Huge tires
-Wings/scoops/vents, but not over engineered
-Not plasticky
-Convertible option
-Low/wide stance
-Great paint in mopar colors
-Low 0-60 & 1/4 mile time, high top speed
-Great quality leather interior
-Great fit/finish, minimal interior & panel gaps
-Reasonably priced
-Factory backed racing program

Just my opinion.

[viperman4125]

Great post, from the article:
"There is then another split of Mopar fans who want to see the front-engine placement carried forward while others want Dodge to truly take on the new Corvette head-to-head with a mid-engine design."

So I think this is a great opportunity for the FCA to see what we would like, my personal opinion:

-Front engine 1000 hp V-10
-Manual transmission
-Clam shell hood/fenders
-Side exhaust
-Huge tires
-Wings/scoops/vents, but not over engineered
-Not plasticky
-Convertible option
-Low/wide stance
-Great paint in mopar colors
-Low 0-60 & 1/4 mile time, high top speed
-Great quality leather interior
-Great fit/finish, minimal interior & panel gaps
-Reasonably priced
-Factory backed racing program

Just my opinion.

Plus an engine that doesn't blow up / and use oil like sive. I'm in!

[ACR-ISH]

Introduce a MID-ENGINE sports car to beat up the Vette... "The Ghoul" maybe?

OR:

Release a V10, front (technically mounted behind front wheels IS mid-engine by definition) engine car with crazy aero and tons of rubber with a manual trans (ONLY!) and call it the Viper.

Please don't repeat GMs mistake and release something that is mid-engine and looks nothing like a Viper and doesn't remind us of the Viper... and then call it a Viper.

Did we not JUST learn this, lol?

[Murpowa]

-Front engine 1000 hp V-10
-Manual transmission
-Clam shell hood/fenders
-Side exhaust
-Huge tires
-Wings/scoops/vents, but not over engineered
-Not plasticky
-Convertible option
-Low/wide stance
-Great paint in mopar colors
-Low 0-60 & 1/4 mile time, high top speed
-Great quality leather interior
-Great fit/finish, minimal interior & panel gaps
-Reasonably priced AND WELL MARKETED
-Factory backed racing program

Fixed it for you

[Bryan Savage]

Great post, from the article:
"There is then another split of Mopar fans who want to see the front-engine placement carried forward while others want Dodge to truly take on the new Corvette head-to-head with a mid-engine design."

So I think this is a great opportunity for the FCA to see what we would like, my personal opinion:

-Front engine 1000 hp V-10
-Manual transmission
-Clam shell hood/fenders
-Side exhaust
-Huge tires
-Wings/scoops/vents, but not over engineered
-Not plasticky
-Convertible option
-Low/wide stance
-Great paint in mopar colors
-Low 0-60 & 1/4 mile time, high top speed
-Great quality leather interior
-Great fit/finish, minimal interior & panel gaps
-Reasonably priced
-Factory backed racing program

Just my opinion.

Aside from the horsepower and the convertible, you just described the Gen V. Spoiler alert: they didn't sell.

Any hope of another Viper means sharing as much as possible with other FCA products. The supercharged Hemis are too tall for the current chassis, so you're talking ground-up design of a new platform. Unless you can guarantee 5,000 cars sell every year, it's just not worth the investment.

[J TNT]

Internet: ��We want another Viper!!��

FCA: �� Nobody �� bought �� the �� last �� one ����
..............lol !
You forgot this part Bryan...

[stradman]

Great post, from the article:
"There is then another split of Mopar fans who want to see the front-engine placement carried forward while others want Dodge to truly take on the new Corvette head-to-head with a mid-engine design."

So I think this is a great opportunity for the FCA to see what we would like, my personal opinion:

-Front engine 1000 hp V-10
-Manual transmission
-Clam shell hood/fenders
-Side exhaust
-Huge tires
-Wings/scoops/vents, but not over engineered
-Not plasticky
-Convertible option
-Low/wide stance
-Great paint in mopar colors
-Low 0-60 & 1/4 mile time, high top speed
-Great quality leather interior
-Great fit/finish, minimal interior & panel gaps
-Reasonably priced
-Factory backed racing program

Just my opinion.

Would need to be turbo or supercharged to get those kind of numbers whilst still being emissions compliant. No more NA V10 that's for sure. And in order to up the ante would also need to be, simllarly aluminum chassis mid engined...

[JPL]

Aside from the horsepower and the convertible, you just described the Gen V. Spoiler alert: they didn't sell.

Any hope of another Viper means sharing as much as possible with other FCA products. The supercharged Hemis are too tall for the current chassis, so you're talking ground-up design of a new platform. Unless you can guarantee 5,000 cars sell every year, it's just not worth the investment.

Yup, I agree to an extent, I was there for the unveil of the gen V, I really liked it, but I didn't love it. I wasn't too impressed with the 40 hp gain over the previous generation, looks were good but weren't jaw-dropping, and the front looked a bit over engineered, again, just my opinion, not here knocking the gen V, I really like it and actually was considering one for a while....went with a gen IV ACR.

[ACR-ISH]

Yup, I agree to an extent, I was there for the unveil of the gen V, I really liked it, but I didn't love it. I wasn't too impressed with the 40 hp gain over the previous generation, looks were good but weren't jaw-dropping, and the front looked a bit over engineered, again, just my opinion, not here knocking the gen V, I really like it and actually was considering one for a while....went with a gen IV ACR.

I think the cool thing about all GENs is they were always unique. Some softer. Some aero. Some newer. There's a Viper for almost everyone. Pretty cool!

[Bruce H.]

Can't imagine how many issues owners of C8s could face.

[catwood]

Can't imagine how many issues owners of C8s could face.

At the price level it's claimed to be offered at, somewhere someone's cutting corners.

It has to make a profit and an ROI one way or another.

[ACR-ISH]

At the price level it's claimed to be offered at, somewhere someone's cutting corners.

It has to make a profit and an ROI one way or another.

Dude... they re-used the Camaro Rear ends... haven't you been paying attention?

[serpent]

Manuals are dying. GM had a report that the uptake for manuals was 15%. Also, before we talk about corvette owners being old, the Viper has historically been more $$$. Only older people can afford these $100k cars. Im 34

Dodge had trouble selling vipers, so really, does FCA think it will be worth it? Probably not.


Edit: fuck it, while were at it, just release a mid engine, TT v10, that still looks like a viper. Manual available as an option.
Ferrari-esque exterior design, Porsche level german engineering, Mclaren level performance.
LOL

[Bryan Savage]

Yup, I agree to an extent, I was there for the unveil of the gen V, I really liked it, but I didn't love it. I wasn't too impressed with the 40 hp gain over the previous generation, looks were good but weren't jaw-dropping, and the front looked a bit over engineered, again, just my opinion, not here knocking the gen V, I really like it and actually was considering one for a while....went with a gen IV ACR.

I totally agree with the power thing. Not knocking any in the Viper program, but for the brand new car to debut with the same power as the last-generation ACR-X was a big "meh" to the crowd. The same thing happened with the Demon reveal. The internet whipped itself into a frenzy and anything less than 1,000 hp was going to be a disappointment.

Ask any designer though and they'll be like, "What the hell are you going to do with a 1,000 hp street car?? You text and drive!!!"

It's crazy that 500 hp is no big deal these days. What we really need are cars that don't weigh 4,000 pounds.

[ViperNC]

Couple of recent articles about a mid engine Viper. You decide:

https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cul...oncept-secret/

https://www.motor1.com/photos/643943...per-rendering/

Personally for me, a mid engine Viper loses all the personality and character of a front engine design. Granted this is just one artists rendering, but it shares too many lines with an Audi R8 or Lamborghini Huracan. Ford did a great job with the new GT and making a mid engine street car look fabulous, yet different from other mid engine supercars. Taking a front engine machine and totally transforming it to mid engine is absolutely starting from scratch and hard to keep the pretty lines of the Viper. Too many mid engine supercars look the same these days. The Viper stands out because it is different. As for the C8, it remains to be seen how well it will perform on the race track and to me that is where it matters. Guess we'll find out next year in IMSA with a C8R. Nonetheless, it looks like a Ferrari and Camaro had sex.

[ACR-ISH]

it's crazy that 500 hp is no big deal these days. What we really need are cars that don't weigh 4,000 pounds.

boom!

We also get too stuck on "more power." There's a point where the last statement is correct: What would we do with it? If it's more power than the chassis and car can handle then find alternatives that make us faster, ie: we lose weight... we increase aero, etc.

The Gen V Viper debuted with 40 more HP than the Gen IV ACR-X/E which we can't even buy or drive in CA (and probably other states, too). So it really had no impact except on the race track. So the Gen V base with 40hp is damn near a 10% increase over last years' bad boy. That's nothing to shake a stick at already making over 600hp!

Then the Gen V ACR comes in for another $20k-ish dollars and sets records with just aero and suspension? And it has automatic climate control, a back up camera, navigation, LCD instrumentation via SRT pages, G-meter, accelerometer, blue tooth, better stereo, LED head and tail lamps, etc etc... all those things need to be accounted for, too. Maybe we were looking at the wrong numbers when we were disappointed with the Gen V. The GEN V was leaps and bounds ahead of it's predecessor (don't hate me, sorry) in tech and still best and beat all of it's predecessors numbers.

Maybe performance and cars aren't really the problem. Maybe our expectations have become insurmountable...?

[SRT_BluByU]

I'd love to see a Mid-Engine, Ultra-Light, Cabon Monocock, carbon body, 1000hp, wide sticky tire sports car from FCA in the Viper price range. I'm indifferent on transmission and AWD/RWD for this car as it wont be a Viper.


Would be real nice if the marketing budget and targeting match the expectations of the car and please dont call it Viper if its not a Front-Mid V10.

[Policy Limits]

I'd order one. I just dont think you can call it Viper without a V10. Boost a mid engine V8, put DCT in it and call it Serpent.

[Scott_in_fl]

The end of the article says it all:

"Again, we are just dreaming here..."

Indeed!

If you guys want to get really excited about forthcoming quasi-affordable sports cars, then look forward to the C8 Z06 and the R36 Nissan GT-R. Both should arrive 2022 and will be insane.

Even if they started work on a Viper replacement today, you're easily looking at 2025 for a release. Plus, anyone who follows Ralph on IG knows that his time lately has not been spent doing anything remotely associated with planning a future Viper.

[RT SERPENT]

I'd love to see a Mid-Engine, Ultra-Light, Cabon Monocock, carbon body, 1000hp, wide sticky tire sports car from FCA in the Viper price range. I'm indifferent on transmission and AWD/RWD for this car as it wont be a Viper.


Would be real nice if the marketing budget and targeting match the expectations of the car and please dont call it Viper if its not a Front-Mid V10.

Nailed it! Build this, but don't call it a Viper. Call it the ME412 /8? for all I care. Or put the Hemi into it and call it something totally new.

[texasram]

This is the quintessential viper forum, so beware that Gen VI developers (if there are going to be an) are noting these comments from actuall viper owners. NO ONE SCREW IT UP PLEASE.

[Scott_in_fl]

This is the quintessential viper forum, so beware that Gen VI developers (if there are going to be an) are noting these comments from actuall viper owners. NO ONE SCREW IT UP PLEASE.

In that case, FCA should either assign some of their own talent from the Ferrari/Pininfarina divisions, or take a good look at what Aston Martin has done lately. Any new car needs to be wild and mean.

Aston has been killing it -- Valkyrie, Vulcan, Zagato shooting brake, new Vantage, new Vanquish. And the new FGT was not half bad either -- really showed us that automotive design has not come close to running out of ideas re: what you can do with exterior styling.

Lambo is always good, but the rest are just boring copies of each other (Mac, Audi, NSX, C8, and every other ME platform out there). GM could have done a lot more, but it has a loyal and faithful old guard that it could not piss off any more than it had already with the ME platform.

Oh, and DOHC with high rev limits. No need for 12k-13k, but 9k-10k would be nice and could still sound different from the Italian cars if the exhaust is tuned properly. Think Moto GP bike sounds with wicked shift pops between gears Yummy!

[Vegaskid]

You won't see a Gen VI until they can sell ~30K units a year like the vette