Another Viper blew its engine at the track yesterday

[Old School]

I would guess the statement means no oil was observed on the dipstick, which would mean 5 or 6 Qt low or more.

I agree. The point I was trying to bring up was that they said there was no oil on the track because of the lack of oil in the engine.

They said it didn't spill oil all over the track fortunately...and then added "because there wasn't any in it"!

I don't think the block or oil pan were ventilated.

[swexlin]

And a reduction in the safe zone size from 2 Qt to 1 Qt.

Always wondered that. I was pretty sure the safe zone area on my 2013 is 2 qts. Thanks.

[ViperJon]

Many engines have an electronic oil level indicator. They are not overly reliable, and really only safeguard against a dangerously low oil level. .

Precisely why it would be good to have. BEFORE the motor blows.

[St Pete Viper ACR E]

Precisely why it would be good to have. BEFORE the motor blows.

Agree with your agreement, if anything lets say something goes wrong and you suddenly are losing oil or burning oil more rapidly that cheap as chips warning light could save your arse.

[ViperSRT]

Wasted effort.

[Bill Pemberton]

Thank you ViperSRT....solid comment and one that repeats , to a degree , what some others have already mentioned.

Check the oil level , it is the same concern many had in the 90s, and it continues today ----- big motor, dramatic g loads , high speeds , killer brakes , etc. all are some contributing factors. Those racing in Viper Days understood these simple examples of the physics of the beast , and we checked fluids religiously, along with seeing oil usage. Folks built aftermarket windage trays in Viper oil pans to fix some of the concerns, others listened to supposed learned folks telling them to overfill by a quart. Not saying any of these items cured the problem or even that all of them were right, but the situation was there as we now owned a bona fide race car for the street.

One has to acknowledge the irony in this thread , when the bulk of Viper owners say they hate nanny devices and the lack thereof is part of what brought them to the Viper , yet here we are with many arguing for more. The reality of the physics of the engine/oil pan, etc. seems to go to the wayside , when it has been a part of the discussion since the Snake started conquering road courses.

Lastly, we all have to take pause and recognize we have folks almost defending the fact that we should not have to check the oil, and I find this a bit of a mirror of society. Be accountable , check your oil and realize you have to maintain the beast, essentially because that is what the majority of you desired when you came to the Viper party ---- a throw back , a human hands on machine, not a nanny loaded device that anyone could own or operate.

PS - funny part of this whole situation is we replaced a lot more engines in Gen IIs than we have with Gen Vs, but in those earlier days Dodge wanted things kept quiet and one simply sent them in for repair. Yet, we all took pride in the overall durability of the Viper, as invariably when on the track the V10 just kept on running while we saw Vettes lying by the roadside. Still remember a Vipers Days event in Texas in 1999 when Skip Thomas was trying to get an American Supercar Challenge going and the Vettes had trouble even getting one car to finish the race. PSPS - the second irony is with the comments that forged motors don't seat in as well as cast and that is part of the problem. Are all our friends with Vipers from 2000 on up to 2010 chuckling about this supposed disadvantage over the hypereutectic pistons. Sorry, I love irony , and probably should just shut up , as likely fanning the flames of some other little concern , but hard not to see some of the humor in life when you get to be an old fart?

[ViperJon]

But ignore the physics of why it is impractical with the Viper engine dimensions. For those of you that think oil in an engine is something like your pool that you can easily determine the level think again. If it has a nicely defined sump (read deep) than it has been done numerous times even though the level in the sump varies fairly dramatically during operation due to sloshing, foaming, retained oil in the crank windage and upper engine, etc. But to allow the engine to be mounted as low to the ground as possible and without an enormous hood bulge, the Viper engine has a nearly flat, full engine length and width oil pan. And capable of more than 1 G in acceleration in all 4 directions. 1 G acceleration would put the oil at a 45 degree angle inside the engine. Instead of the usual 1 sensor that other engines use the Viper would need an assortment of sensors and computing power to take those measurements and calculate an oil level. Not happening. Maybe NASA could/would do it but on a $100k car it would be next to impossible. So quit bitching about the impossible not being present and check the oil level manually. It isn't difficult.

Guess that is why we have mentioned the oil level reading could be done at initial startup before the car even moves there Einstein. The way sensors can read exhaust and fuel and a myriad of other things at startup. If it was reading low AT THAT POINT it could send a warning. Before there is movement, or G forces or sloshing.
Probably wouldn't even need NASA.

[catwood]

Thank you ViperSRT....solid comment and one that repeats , to a degree , what some others have already mentioned.

Check the oil level , it is the same concern many had in the 90s, and it continues today ----- big motor, dramatic g loads , high speeds , killer brakes , etc. all are some contributing factors. Those racing in Viper Days understood these simple examples of the physics of the beast , and we checked fluids religiously, along with seeing oil usage. Folks built aftermarket windage trays in Viper oil pans to fix some of the concerns, others listened to supposed learned folks telling them to overfill by a quart. Not saying any of these items cured the problem or even that all of them were right, but the situation was there as we now owned a bona fide race car for the street.

One has to acknowledge the irony in this thread , when the bulk of Viper owners say they hate nanny devices and the lack thereof is part of what brought them to the Viper , yet here we are with many arguing for more. The reality of the physics of the engine/oil pan, etc. seems to go to the wayside , when it has been a part of the discussion since the Snake started conquering road courses.

Lastly, we all have to take pause and recognize we have folks almost defending the fact that we should not have to check the oil, and I find this a bit of a mirror of society. Be accountable , check your oil and realize you have to maintain the beast, essentially because that is what the majority of you desired when you came to the Viper party ---- a throw back , a human hands on machine, not a nanny loaded device that anyone could own or operate.

PS - funny part of this whole situation is we replaced a lot more engines in Gen IIs than we have with Gen Vs, but in those earlier days Dodge wanted things kept quiet and one simply sent them in for repair. Yet, we all took pride in the overall durability of the Viper, as invariably when on the track the V10 just kept on running while we saw Vettes lying by the roadside. Still remember a Vipers Days event in Texas in 1999 when Skip Thomas was trying to get an American Supercar Challenge going and the Vettes had trouble even getting one car to finish the race. PSPS - the second irony is with the comments that forged motors don't seat in as well as cast and that is part of the problem. Are all our friends with Vipers from 2000 on up to 2010 chuckling about this supposed disadvantage over the hypereutectic pistons. Sorry, I love irony , and probably should just shut up , as likely fanning the flames of some other little concern , but hard not to see some of the humor in life when you get to be an old fart?

Well said Bill. I came in midstream into the Viper world and started tracking soon and then into Viper Days. Learned alot there. And God Bless BBD for that baffle kit.

[ViperSRT]

Wasted effort.

[Martin]

I suppose it is all a moot point now - the cars don't have an oil level indicator, and they're not being made anymore, so we're not going to get a Gen VI that has one. I see both sides of the argument, and pretty much agree with both sides. We should check our oil, and most of us do.

That said, I really don't consider an oil level gauge any more of a "nanny" than, say, a brake fluid level warning light, a coolant level warning, or a gas level gauge. As it was said, since the Gen II people have been losing engines because of low oil, so you'd think 20+ years of experience in dealing with warranty claims would count for something when the engineers went to work on later designs. Even if it was just a warning that sampled upon start-up, that probably would have saved enough engines to pay for the design costs, implementation, and reputation preservation.

In a perfect world, we'd have dry sump systems since the inherent design of these engines are prone to all the oil pan difficulties that people have highlighted. That would have been easy to measure the reservoir level in real-time, and it would have a definite coolness factor to it.

But, it is what it is, and while I personally am a big fan of over-engineering for durability (and not a big fan of nannys that do nothing but try to keep us from driving into a tree or backing into another car in the Wal Mart parking lot), I'll just check the oil every time I start up, and whenever I fill up.

[ForTehNguyen]

some of these electronic oil level sensors are definately not measured in real time, if you watch the BMW video it can take up to 3 minutes to read the level. Even then it can only read in a 1qt window, so you could be low but you have no idea how low unless you repeat adding 1qt per reading. Now its turning into a 10-15 minute affair just to check what a dipstick couldve told you in 15 seconds. Junk

[Gen5snake]

some of these electronic oil level sensors are definately not measured in real time, if you watch the BMW video it can take up to 3 minutes to read the level. Even then it can only read in a 1qt window, so you could be low but you have no idea how low unless you repeat adding 1qt per reading. Now its turning into a 10-15 minute affair just to check what a dipstick couldve told you in 15 seconds. Junk

To check the oil in the new Jaguars, The engine oil must be warmed up first, Then you have to wait 10 minutes to get a reading. It’s a big pain in the ass. My feedback to them was, put a dipstick in there.

[swexlin]

Bill, I always like your insight. Did not realize that more Gen 2 engines were replaced then Gen 5. 20 years ago though, there was not social media, and these internet forums were in their infancy, so if one did go, it wasn't immediately noted to the world (on FB, Instagram, etc) that an engine blew up. However, I also agree with Jon, if there was a way to get at least a basic level at start up ( and I know that garages can slope), a warning could be given. It might not be entirely accurate, but would give some indication that action could be taken. As others have said - too late now. We have what we have!

[Martin]

To check the oil in the new Jaguars, The engine oil must be warmed up first, Then you have to wait 10 minutes to get a reading. It’s a big pain in the ass. My feedback to them was, put a dipstick in there.

To have an electronic reading, and not a manual one via dipstick, is just plain silly. That's taking things to the stupid-extreme. How much does it cost to leave the dipstick in the design? Even with brake fluid and coolant level sensors, you still have a manual way of checking the level. These things don't need to be mutually exclusive.

Oh well, I prayed and prayed for a dry sump system in the Gen V engines - but I'm still happy with what I got. So far, no oil consumption...knock on wood...

[Old School]

I like a dipstick, in fact, I probably wouldn't trust something automated.

But, to get abound the not level ground problem, you just need 2 sensors, front and rear. Then just a little bit of math for the controller to do.

This reminds me of a gas gauge on a boat, they're worthless if your moving.....

[Bruce H.]

I'm a bit sorry now that I mentioned that it was a Viper that had blown on track with no oil in it.

Despite what you may think Dodge should have done, or any other manufacturer for that matter, the bottom line is that it has always been the responsibility of the owner to check and maintain the oil level. And if an owner is so smart they feel they don't need to read their manual, can't figure out how to read the dipstick, is too busy for such mundane things, or is just a negligent sort then I don't know what to say about such a person owning this kind of a vehicle, or maybe any kind of vehicle.

This was just a simple reminder to check your oil, remind all your friends, and don't blame Dodge if your engine fails from you running it low on oil.

Peace

[Jack B]

I like a dipstick, in fact, I probably wouldn't trust something automated.

But, to get abound the not level ground problem, you just need 2 sensors, front and rear. Then just a little bit of math for the controller to do.

This reminds me of a gas gauge on a boat, they're worthless if your moving.....

The other problem is accuracy, due to the fact that the pan design is so shallow it would be extremely hard to get any resolution with a gauge. The level hardly moves when you are two quarts down.

[J TNT]

You make a good point Bruce , over the years I've stopped in to see friends who are High End Techs on various Marques . And I'll make it a point to look at cars on the hoist , and it's interesting the differences in care and maintenance from one car to the next of the same year . The irony is some guys who call themselves car guys, have cars that are poorly maintained !!! And it becomes very apparent upon closer inspection .............

Good News though , I've seen your car on the hoist and it's Top Tier when it comes to service and maintaining it !!!
Not surprised though given you take it to the Best Viper TECH in Ontario !

[Voice of Reason]

Don’t over complicate this, if the human eye can check a metal stick pulled out of a tiny tube sloshed with oil with any kind of accuracy then a sensor at engine start can do the same. No one is saying the sensor should have provided real time oil level indication during race conditions. But it absolutely could have alerted people to 4+ qt low conditions that I suspect are a common theme of engine failures.

I know in my case it was! When the engine in my ‘13 failed at 3,700 miles, never once having been raced, the oil change interval of 6k miles/6 months was worthless because my failure happened before both. I did NOT drive the car hard in those miles, there was nothing about how I drove to make me think I needed to physically check the oil level more frequently than the change interval in the manual. Again, zero racing. Maybe a dozen or two quick WOT pulls in 2 gears during that time. I guarantee I daily drive my Grand Cherokee harder during the same mileage period because it needed it with less HP. But the almighty Viper engine is apparently made of glass?

My point? Dodge failed with these engines with regard to longevity. In this thread alone we have a dealer admitting they replaced more Gen 2 engines than Gen 5. So have Viper engines ever been as bullitt proof as their legend leads everyone to believe? Chevy’s LSx engines, THERE is a bullitt proof engine. Proven over and over and over. But Viper engines if I don’t check the oil level every other change of my underwear I risk voiding the warranty? The same engine I happily early adopted an Arrow controller on, sold and installed by my dealer, that effectively completely voided my warranty? That warranty?

[ky13]

Preface: I check my oil level regularly lol. Personally, I'd like a layered approach, like most cars. A manual option (dipstick) and an electronic sensor. Those of you who mentioned sensitivity to (rapid) oil level changes: I would imagine a sensor being described would be able to account for this easily (similar to the smoothing that most modern fuel sensor circuits can implement so your gauge doesn't bounce around as the float moves rapidly). As far as location, the sensor could be at the same level as the top of the pick up. Again, this is all hypothetical since the car doesn't have one.

[Bruce H.]

Good News though , I've seen your car on the hoist and it's Top Tier when it comes to service and maintaining it !!!
Not surprised though given you take it to the Best Viper TECH in Ontario !

Thanks Jay, and our community is very fortunate to have great techs like Garrett. I could change my own oil on my own lift but feel 100% confident in the car when his eyes are checking out all the important parts of my car. Always feel it's very good money spent. 64,000 kms and "hissing" like new

https://media1.tenor.com/images/48e1...itemid=5704608https://media1.tenor.com/images/48e1...itemid=5704608

[swexlin]

Don’t over complicate this, if the human eye can check a metal stick pulled out of a tiny tube sloshed with oil with any kind of accuracy then a sensor at engine start can do the same. No one is saying the sensor should have provided real time oil level indication during race conditions. But it absolutely could have alerted people to 4+ qt low conditions that I suspect are a common theme of engine failures.

I know in my case it was! When the engine in my ‘13 failed at 3,700 miles, never once having been raced, the oil change interval of 6k miles/6 months was worthless because my failure happened before both. I did NOT drive the car hard in those miles, there was nothing about how I drove to make me think I needed to physically check the oil level more frequently than the change interval in the manual. Again, zero racing. Maybe a dozen or two quick WOT pulls in 2 gears during that time. I guarantee I daily drive my Grand Cherokee harder during the same mileage period because it needed it with less HP. But the almighty Viper engine is apparently made of glass?

My point? Dodge failed with these engines with regard to longevity. In this thread alone we have a dealer admitting they replaced more Gen 2 engines than Gen 5. So have Viper engines ever been as bullitt proof as their legend leads everyone to believe? Chevy’s LSx engines, THERE is a bullitt proof engine. Proven over and over and over. But Viper engines if I don’t check the oil level every other change of my underwear I risk voiding the warranty? The same engine I happily early adopted an Arrow controller on, sold and installed by my dealer, that effectively completely voided my warranty? That warranty?

Powerful post. And I agree with it.

[ViperJon]

I don't think they have been "bulletproof" but they most certainly never drank oil the way some Gen V's do. I've had two Gen 2's and two Gen 4's and maybe checked the oil every 500-1000 miles...why bother they never burned any. So guys used to that were probably expecting the same lever of consumption in the new improved Gen 5's. Boom.

[Bill Pemberton]

Before we get too far in reading between the lines , somehow no one picked up much on the fact that running with Viper Days and others , motors and other items malfunctioning with Corvettes ( and other machines ) were way more prevalent than with Vipers. The comment about today's engine issues is pertinent to this debate , because so many constantly post that the Gen II motors were infallible. The situation is quite simple, motors were quietly replaced back then , but today FCA gave consumers the transparency they wanted and discussed the possibility that 1-2% of the motors might have a problem? This Forum is a small group of owners, but once we hear of a motor going we ring the bell and get worked up. The difference 20 years ago was ( without social media ,etc. ) was more in the vein of asking questions, and invariably we discovered things like, missed a shift , went off track , didn't check the oil , etc. ( and yes, missed shifts on the street were just as common , as bit more street racing than imagined). I find that today folks immediately blame the car or manufacturer instead of being accountable themselves. Funny, years back we even had folks own up to missing shifts or doing something foolish, but not today. We did not replace many motors , at all, on Gen Vs , but it was interesting when we did that the color of the oil or comments from our friends , put an entirely new light on the situation. I can honestly attest that many of the issues were human error , but virtually none would admit it, as dollars obviously overweighed truth.

Somewhere along the line we have to realize not all situations were the fault of the Manufacturer, just as we must face the facts that many can be consumer issues. The note above is one that actually points out an issue Manufacturers have done to cause their own problems. His statement that there was nothing about how I drove to make me think I needed to physically check the oil level more frequently than the change interval in the manual, is the problem Dealers see a lot now. Even though Generations have grown up knowing that a new car may use some oil initially ( heck I was told this back in the 60s ) , we see folks not checking their oil for 3-10K miles. This is stupid for a vehicle manufacturer to not address , especially when companies like BG Products actively promote and advertise the fact that new engines with the low friction piston rings are using more oil than in the past. Yet, we find many companies extending oil intervals because the oil is better than in the past , yet that does not mean we should stop checking ----- that to me is the real failure. Manufacturers do not want to address an issue with all makes , and since no one does , it is shoved under the carpet.

So lastly , how many engines issues were the fault of human error and how many were manufacturer, we don't know, but the way the issue is addressed is definitely different than in the past. This debate will go on and on , as we have seen from previous threads , but there is a distinct number that need to be viewed as likely driver error. It seems we don't pause anymore and really rail on the stupidity of a driver running on the track with low oil , we instead revert the blame to something else. Many need to take ownership of their own tasks in owning an automobile, truck , boat ,etc. There are issues from the Manufacturer of motor vehicles , we see them all the time in recalls, etc., but the blanket statements are of concern, because much too often today the driver/owner is viewed as fault free.

I know this thread will continue , but I am just throwing another bone out there , for folks to digest , as I doubt I am the only one that sees the irony that we are going on a long drive blaming Dodge instead of spending the time discussing stupidity in maintaining a 100K+ Supercar?

..... oh, and everyone , please have a nice day. Vipers rule and I love mine even with it's imperfections ( in fact I think I bought it because of those perceived lack of current technologies).

[SRT BILL]

Before we get too far in reading between the lines , somehow no one picked up much on the fact that running with Viper Days and others , motors and other items malfunctioning with Corvettes ( and other machines ) were way more prevalent than with Vipers. The comment about today's engine issues is pertinent to this debate , because so many constantly post that the Gen II motors were infallible. The situation is quite simple, motors were quietly replaced back then , but today FCA gave consumers the transparency they wanted and discussed the possibility that 1-2% of the motors might have a problem? This Forum is a small group of owners, but once we hear of a motor going we ring the bell and get worked up. The difference 20 years ago was ( without social media ,etc. ) was more in the vein of asking questions, and invariably we discovered things like, missed a shift , went off track , didn't check the oil , etc. ( and yes, missed shifts on the street were just as common , as bit more street racing than imagined). I find that today folks immediately blame the car or manufacturer instead of being accountable themselves. Funny, years back we even had folks own up to missing shifts or doing something foolish, but not today. We did not replace many motors , at all, on Gen Vs , but it was interesting when we did that the color of the oil or comments from our friends , put an entirely new light on the situation. I can honestly attest that many of the issues were human error , but virtually none would admit it, as dollars obviously overweighed truth.

Somewhere along the line we have to realize not all situations were the fault of the Manufacturer, just as we must face the facts that many can be consumer issues. The note above is one that actually points out an issue Manufacturers have done to cause their own problems. His statement that there was nothing about how I drove to make me think I needed to physically check the oil level more frequently than the change interval in the manual, is the problem Dealers see a lot now. Even though Generations have grown up knowing that a new car may use some oil initially ( heck I was told this back in the 60s ) , we see folks not checking their oil for 3-10K miles. This is stupid for a vehicle manufacturer to not address , especially when companies like BG Products actively promote and advertise the fact that new engines with the low friction piston rings are using more oil than in the past. Yet, we find many companies extending oil intervals because the oil is better than in the past , yet that does not mean we should stop checking ----- that to me is the real failure. Manufacturers do not want to address an issue with all makes , and since no one does , it is shoved under the carpet.

So lastly , how many engines issues were the fault of human error and how many were manufacturer, we don't know, but the way the issue is addressed is definitely different than in the past. This debate will go on and on , as we have seen from previous threads , but there is a distinct number that need to be viewed as likely driver error. It seems we don't pause anymore and really rail on the stupidity of a driver running on the track with low oil , we instead revert the blame to something else. Many need to take ownership of their own tasks in owning an automobile, truck , boat ,etc. There are issues from the Manufacturer of motor vehicles , we see them all the time in recalls, etc., but the blanket statements are of concern, because much too often today the driver/owner is viewed as fault free.

I know this thread will continue , but I am just throwing another bone out there , for folks to digest , as I doubt I am the only one that sees the irony that we are going on a long drive blaming Dodge instead of spending the time discussing stupidity in maintaining a 100K+ Supercar?

..... oh, and everyone , please have a nice day. Vipers rule and I love mine even with it's imperfections ( in fact I think I bought it because of those perceived lack of current technologies).

Bill, very nicely said. I have a question, if an engine uses 1 qt of oil in a 1000 miles how much oil will it use in the next 1000 miles and so on? My thoughts are that the oil usage will increase as the reserve become less.