Mecum Auctions

[SilverACR]

father knows best: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngt9jakwie4

lmfao!!!

[Bill W]

[QUOTE=dvhood;366717]Wife & I had a great time this year at the various auctions, and good to see our Vipers gaining such popularity nationwide. After speaking with Kraman and Bill Stephens (who absolutely adore our cars), we should expect a continual rise in desirability and value....especially the well maintained examples.)
Viper Dave
DBH Collection (Gen2Viper)
Dixon, Ca

1996 GTS's
1997 GTS b/w
1998 GTS-R
1999 ACR (black), (black/silver)
2000 GTS (black/silver)
2001 GTS (sapphire)
2002 GTS (red/silver)
2002 GTS (bumblebee)
2002 FEs
2002 FE ACR



Good to hear they're holding value. That's quite a collection you have. Love my '02 RT/10. We are all lucky to have such fine cars.

[ViperTony]

Is it wrong that Post #1 gave me a feel good chubby? Confused.

[COI]

Is it wrong that Post #1 gave me a feel good chubby? Confused.

Those of us that are true Viper enthusiasts probably also got a feel good chubby. It's the others that for some reason can't seem to keep their inane comments to themselves that want to turn the chubby into a stubby.

Everyone enjoys cars in their own way and getting some validation that the Viper is a desirable piece of automotive history seems to be a good reason for all of us to smile.

[AustinK]

For whatever reason, people who purchase fun cars as investments really frustrate me.

I'm right there with you. Not only are they making terrible investments, but these types of people ruin the car hobby.

Here's a fun comparison of the Viper's value against the stock market over the same period of time:

StockMarketComparison.jpg

After speaking with Kraman and Bill Stephens (who absolutely adore our cars), we should expect a continual rise in desirability and value....especially the well maintained examples.

I agree with you, but you're talking about cars that literally don't have any value left to lose. They've steadily depreciated to nearly nothing; of course they'll hold or go up in value. There's no other way to go.

The 1996 Gen II GTS had a base MSRP of $66,000 USD when new. Adjusting for inflation, that amounts to roughly $108,000 USD today. A good condition 1996 Gen II GTS is selling for an average of $37,900 USD today. That's a loss of $70,100 from when the car was new.

This all happened while the global car market was experiencing its greatest value growth curve in history. The chart on the left measures market activity and momentum, and the chart on the right measures dollars and volume in the market after being adjusted for inflation. This growth has been unprecedented, all the while the Viper was flatlined (which actually means it was depreciating, due to inflation).

HagertyInflation.jpg

Not to mention, OP specifically has been selling 40% of their collection for several months now. Of course they want values to go up. For how much we criticize "naysayers" here, we sure fail to acknowledge the inherent bias that a community full of owners has, especially when all of the price jump threads conveniently seem to be started by folks selling their cars. This doesn't even touch on the fact that all of the global market data available on the Viper corroborates what the "naysayers" have been saying all along. Maybe it's because they're looking at that data, rather than cherrypicking anecdotes.

Luckily, I've made looking at the data way easier via the analyses here and here, which I shared over a month ago.

Now to be fair, all of the cars that OP is selling are ultra low miles, excellent condition, desirable specs, etc. So they can expect to be on the very upper end of this scale, because they're selling legitimate collector cars. But their cars are few and far between, and they're not representative of the Viper market at large (nor are Mecum's star cars or literally anything at Barrett-Jackson). That's precisely why those cars are commanding higher values.

I cringe when people see these threads and then put their 3rd owner, 30K mile '00 RT/10 up for $42K and then whine when their car sits for 6 months with only "rude lowball offers". Get real.

These are fantastic, unique, undervalued cars that were meant to be enjoyed. If you purchase them as an investment, you're not only ignorant (try Googling "index fund" instead), but you're going against everything that the Viper and the American car hobby stands for. A blue collar supercar. A democratized, inclusive community focused on appreciating, understanding, and driving these machines. Not hoarding and storing them for 20 years just to emerge with an overinflated price that actually amounts to a $70K net loss (before taxes, maintenance and storage), only to proclaim it as a great investment. That's delusional.

Buy these cars, drive them, and enjoy the fact that they're accessible and appreciated by enthusiasts, not collectors.

[soundkillr]

I'm right there with you. Not only are they making terrible investments, but these types of people ruin the car hobby.

Here's a fun comparison of the Viper's value against the stock market over the same period of time:

StockMarketComparison.jpg



I agree with you, but you're talking about cars that literally don't have any value left to lose. They've steadily depreciated to nearly nothing; of course they'll hold or go up in value. There's no other way to go.

The 1996 Gen II GTS had a base MSRP of $66,000 USD when new. Adjusting for inflation, that amounts to roughly $108,000 USD today. A good condition 1996 Gen II GTS is selling for an average of $37,900 USD today. That's a loss of $70,100 from when the car was new.

This all happened while the global car market was experiencing its greatest value growth curve in history. The chart on the left measures market activity and momentum, and the chart on the right measures dollars and volume in the market after being adjusted for inflation. This growth has been unprecedented, all the while the Viper was flatlined (which actually means it was depreciating, due to inflation).

HagertyInflation.jpg

Not to mention, OP specifically has been selling 40% of their collection for several months now. Of course they want values to go up. For how much we criticize "naysayers" here, we sure fail to acknowledge the inherent bias that a community full of owners has, especially when all of the price jump threads conveniently seem to be started by folks selling their cars. This doesn't even touch on the fact that all of the global market data available on the Viper corroborates what the "naysayers" have been saying all along. Maybe it's because they're looking at that data, rather than cherrypicking anecdotes.

Luckily, I've made looking at the data way easier via the analyses here and here, which I shared over a month ago.

Now to be fair, all of the cars that OP is selling are ultra low miles, excellent condition, desirable specs, etc. So they can expect to be on the very upper end of this scale, because they're selling legitimate collector cars. But their cars are few and far between, and they're not representative of the Viper market at large (nor are Mecum's star cars or literally anything at Barrett-Jackson). That's precisely why those cars are commanding higher values.

I cringe when people see these threads and then put their 3rd owner, 30K mile '00 RT/10 up for $42K and then whine when their car sits for 6 months with only "rude lowball offers". Get real.

These are fantastic, unique, undervalued cars that were meant to be enjoyed. If you purchase them as an investment, you're not only ignorant (try Googling "index fund" instead), but you're going against everything that the Viper and the American car hobby stands for. A blue collar supercar. A democratized, inclusive community focused on appreciating, understanding, and driving these machines. Not hoarding and storing them for 20 years just to emerge with an overinflated price that actually amounts to a $70K net loss (before taxes, maintenance and storage), only to proclaim it as a great investment. That's delusional.

Buy these cars, drive them, and enjoy the fact that they're accessible and appreciated by enthusiasts, not collectors.

We've already been through this with your graphs and charts. IF I could find a clean no stories 96gts for 37900 I'd have bought it. Your numbers are off....

[AustinK]

We've already been through this with your graphs and charts. IF I could find a clean no stories 96gts for 37900 I'd have bought it. Your numbers are off....

The only thing we went through was you failing to provide any evidence to the contrary.

A 1996 B/W GTS one owner, clean Carfax with 25K miles on it just sold for $38K in Huntington Beach, CA. A 1997 GTS with red paint just went for $35K in Nixa, MO. That's assuming they sold for the asking price.

Over on eBay, a 1997 GTS with 9,800 miles on it just auctioned for $36,200. A 2002 GTS FE stopped at $35,300. A 1996 GTS B/W stopped at $38,100. And another 1997 GTS stopped at $21,200.

Let's take a look at the RT/10. A 1998 RT/10 went for $25,300. Another 1996 RT/10 went for $26,400. And yet another stalled out at $22,000 only to sell for $31,900 a month later in Las Vegas of all places. Oh, and this mint 2001 RT/10 sold for $29,995 while it had a $38,750 asking price on AutoTrader.

What cars list for and go for are often two very different things. The data that I shared measures both. Even so, the numbers can still be obviously seen in the listings and auction results.

I never disagreed with you that the GTS (and in some cases, even the RT/10) can vary greatly in value and sometimes fetch higher numbers due to condition, history, mileage, color, etc. But that doesn't represent the Viper market as a whole, and it certainly doesn't make these investment material. That's the point I'm making here, and that I've been making since I started sharing this data. Drive your cars.

[soundkillr]

zo2dt.jpg
Actually I could very easily show data to the contrary. However, as I recall it over on that other thread, you ended up pissing off a lot of users and never contributed to the thread when you were contradicted. Could have been because the mods asked you to go away, but what do I know....
Btw I know you like to reference ebay (the second armpit of cars sales, next to scams on Craigslist) but there are many gts that brought well above your average numbers as originally posted....

Btw your gts cars listed on ebay, did not sell on ebay, they either sold locally or were removed. If sold on eBay it will state vehicle sold (as opposed to vehicle no longer available.) At quick glance, this was every gts you listed, including relistings. I didn't bother to list the rt10s. Im pressed for time, but if you'd like I can reach out to all those sellers and see what they actually sold for if their willing to share.

[AustinK]

Actually I could very easily show data to the contrary.

Please produce it. Thanks.

However, as I recall it over on that other thread, you ended up pissing off a lot of users and never contributed to the thread when you were contradicted. Could have been because the mods asked you to go away, but what do I know....

Link to the thread for anyone that wants to read it. I don't see how mods are even relevant here, but let's be clear, nobody asked me to go away and it wouldn't have changed the data if they did. Read through the thread again. A few people got upset, several of which were selling cars of their own (as I pointed out in the thread). Others agreed with me. It's a contentious topic.

Btw your gts cars listed on ebay, did not sell on ebay, they either sold locally or were removed. If sold on eBay it will state vehicle sold (as opposed to vehicle no longer available.) At quick glance, this was every gts you listed, including relistings.

Read my post again. I specifically labeled each car based on whether or not it sold. On eBay specifically, the first one sold and the other 3 didn't meet the reserve. Top bids are indicative of market value. If bids don't meet the reserve, which is happening across many Viper auctions (check the Mecum listings too), it indicates that the anticipated value is inflated above market value. This is the point I've been making here.

I'm not trying to be an ass, or even tell you what the value of the car is. I personally feel they're undervalued, but I'm also an owner, so obviously I'm a bit biased here. Rather, I'm simply saying that value speculation and overinflation as a means to categorize the car as an investment is ridiculous, and it goes against the very purpose of this car and its community.

[BlknBlu]

If you add the year, make, model, miles, owners and how many raindrops into this equation it is pretty clear the value of our cars.




Bruce

[soundkillr]

We're just going to disagree. Over the next few weeks I'll show you sales prices I've seen if necessary, including data in my own personal search for a nice 96gts. I may not have graphs so it may not be relevant to you. Im not trying to be an ass either. Will these cars be worth as much as a gt40 as far as investment? Certainly not. Do many people here wrongly under value these cars? Yes.
Can you drive your car conservatively and get money back out of it? Almost certainly. These valuation tools serve very little purpose especially when wrong. In the real world you are going to have a very hard time finding a nice car for prices as listed on your graph. It's the same argument with insurance when they try and tell you what your cars worth. Can you find a good deal? Yes but it's hard to do and not a true market indicator.

[soundkillr]

I'd guess around 64-70k
They don't come up on the market much, and a clean low mileage acr is hard to find. Honestly I haven't followed acr prices to much, but would think that's about where it would be...

[soundkillr]

There is a difference between expectations, selling by waiting for the right buyer, and then having to sell. If it were me, I'd take the charts as an interesting starting point, closely watch the sales of 15-20, plot miles vs price, plot a trend line, determine contidition/documentation, and then determine what the appropriate price is verse all the hype one way or the other. Remember to take into account what the seller nets, not what the hammer is on auctions.

I have my own analysis for multiple models. If you'd like to chat further, then PM me.

Cheers,

Brian

I feel I've done a pretty good job of that, especially with the 96gts
Ill pm you to further discuss. Thank you

[Purple Haze]

If you add the year, make, model, miles, owners and how many raindrops into this equation it is pretty clear the value of our cars.




Bruce

This is the only thing that makes sense here...Now to really have fun Vipers are returning just a matter of time. Would you drive one with a V8??? Dodge will not let them go...So there!!!!

[AustinK]

There is a difference between expectations, selling by waiting for the right buyer, and then having to sell. If it were me, I'd take the charts as an interesting starting point, closely watch the sales of 15-20, plot miles vs price, plot a trend line, determine contidition/documentation, and then determine what the appropriate price is verse all the hype one way or the other. Remember to take into account what the seller nets, not what the hammer is on auctions.

This is the most rational and correct approach, which it looks like we all agree on. Thanks for synthesizing.

Happy Thanksgiving folks. Enjoy those cars!

[capevettes]

I look at these cars as an investment in pleasure. I enjoy driving it and love the way they look. If, as a byproduct of that enjoyment, it holds it's value or appreciates, that's great. It's just not my primary reason for owning it.

[outnumbered]

I had a salesman at a Cars and Coffee tell me that I should keep the Viper in the garage to protect its value. At the time, I think I had around 20,000 miles, which I think he thought was sinful. I proceeded to tell him that there were two things that meant nothing to me about my car--gas mileage and resale value. He walked away.

[Lalmeida617]

I look at these cars as an investment in pleasure. I enjoy driving it and love the way they look. If, as a byproduct of that enjoyment, it holds it's value or appreciates, that's great. It's just not my primary reason for owning it.

Well said.

I wanted a cool car that was a relatively safe investment. The Viper has not skyrocketed in value but it has not tanked either compared to some other cars out there. So hopefully when I sell mine someday I will get most of my money back and have still had fun in one of the most unique cars ever built.

One thing I have noticed in my short time of ownership is no one knows what it is! I think we need to drive and show them more. The more recognition they get the more other people will want them and in turn prices may rise. Who knows. It’s all fun.

[Bill W]

Well said.

I wanted a cool car that was a relatively safe investment. The Viper has not skyrocketed in value but it has not tanked either compared to some other cars out there. So hopefully when I sell mine someday I will get most of my money back and have still had fun in one of the most unique cars ever built.

My thoughts exactly

[13COBRA]

Well put

Its sad when a paid Mamba Member can't share their thoughts on "the one and only" Viper forum without a bunch of low life's who if you notice. none of them are members.
It's too bad the VOA couldn't make this an exclusive club where you can only reply if your a member. You can read but you can't write. That way it would have weeded out these idiots who have nothing better to do then bash a guy who paid to have this site open. I'm not a member but i don't bash them either.

It's sad when an adult, I assume, resorts to name calling on an anonymous online forum.

All good, I have thicker skin than you or the OP hahaha

[98intrigue]

I had a salesman at a Cars and Coffee tell me that I should keep the Viper in the garage to protect its value. At the time, I think I had around 20,000 miles, which I think he thought was sinful. I proceeded to tell him that there were two things that meant nothing to me about my car--gas mileage and resale value. He walked away.

My hero!